See and that is the big problem here that I tried to point out some while ago. All we, as players, have is speculation, because nobody knows how the system is actually coded and what is taken into account or how.
Sure, you can make some guesses according to what you see and whaseems logical, but it's still no actual fact. Everyone who thinks they know how this all works and is sure of it, should not take it as fact and center their arguments around it. And if people tell you that they experienced something different than you assumed, instead of doubting what they say, you could actually take that new information and use it to adjust your theory with the new data. Especially if those people provide proof.
If someone doesn't completely understand the system, how can they say it's inherently bad and needs to go? How can you even contemplate the possible effects of not having it?
I admit that how CG had said it would work doesn't appear to be happening 100%, and if there are errors, or mechanics not revealed to us, I'm all for an academic approach to figuring it out.
But the broad sentiment that it's bad/wrong/needs to go, without a better understanding is just silly.
Who said the whole system needs to go?
The most I saw from people posting about it are criticizing aspects of the GAC system not the whole, for example MM or the squish. And some of those aspects definitely should/need to be adjusted.
I also think it's more than fair if people point out the discrepancies between what CG said how it should be and how it actually is. Especially if we don't even know if that is wai or if those discrepancies are unforseen/unwanted. So in order to find out if this really is what CG intended is to bring it up and hope for an explanation.
And if they are in fact working as intended it is absolutely understandable if people feel betrayed or lied to.
I also don't think that it is silly if people voice their opinion about something new, especially if CG told them something different than it is.
See and that is the big problem here that I tried to point out some while ago. All we, as players, have is speculation, because nobody knows how the system is actually coded and what is taken into account or how.
Sure, you can make some guesses according to what you see and whaseems logical, but it's still no actual fact. Everyone who thinks they know how this all works and is sure of it, should not take it as fact and center their arguments around it. And if people tell you that they experienced something different than you assumed, instead of doubting what they say, you could actually take that new information and use it to adjust your theory with the new data. Especially if those people provide proof.
If someone doesn't completely understand the system, how can they say it's inherently bad and needs to go? How can you even contemplate the possible effects of not having it?
I admit that how CG had said it would work doesn't appear to be happening 100%, and if there are errors, or mechanics not revealed to us, I'm all for an academic approach to figuring it out.
But the broad sentiment that it's bad/wrong/needs to go, without a better understanding is just silly.
Who said the whole system needs to go?
Did I misunderstanding the meaning of #ditchthesquish?
See and that is the big problem here that I tried to point out some while ago. All we, as players, have is speculation, because nobody knows how the system is actually coded and what is taken into account or how.
Sure, you can make some guesses according to what you see and whaseems logical, but it's still no actual fact. Everyone who thinks they know how this all works and is sure of it, should not take it as fact and center their arguments around it. And if people tell you that they experienced something different than you assumed, instead of doubting what they say, you could actually take that new information and use it to adjust your theory with the new data. Especially if those people provide proof.
If someone doesn't completely understand the system, how can they say it's inherently bad and needs to go? How can you even contemplate the possible effects of not having it?
I admit that how CG had said it would work doesn't appear to be happening 100%, and if there are errors, or mechanics not revealed to us, I'm all for an academic approach to figuring it out.
But the broad sentiment that it's bad/wrong/needs to go, without a better understanding is just silly.
Who said the whole system needs to go?
Did I misunderstanding the meaning of #ditchthesquish?
The squish is an aspect/part of the system but it is not the whole system.
The squish happens at the beginning of each season. Also it would move someone toward k3, not away from it. Stop blaming things on it.
There is no blame if they are stating the facts. 3 people alone in this thread have experienced the same thing and yet somehow you find a way to turn that around on them? They won but still didn't have enough points to stay where they are because of the squish and got demoted. Is there any other way to see this than it is because of the squish? How is it their fault exactly? They can't do more than win, now can they?
I don't know what caused it, but I know what didn't. Keep thinking it's the squish if you want, even though it doesn't occur between rounds. That will only stop you from figuring out what is actually happening, but that's fine with me.
Who said the squish occurs between rounds? Lol! Nobody! People talk about the squish that happened right before this very new season my friend.
It's about the fact that we have a new season now, had only 1 fight in this new season, the squish occured right before it and people now get relegated mid bracket because eventhough they won, their points were too low because of the squish. Wanna twist what people actually said some more or did you really not get what people were talking about here. In that case read the posts again.
That still doesn't explain it. As I said in previous post (and dozens of others) the squish pushes people toward division 3. It can't be responsible for a relegation from k3 to k4.
But keep going with this nonsense.
Is it really nonsense if it’s right?
It's not right. Either it's something else, or the system isn't working as it's supposed to.
Continuing to attribute it to the squish and saying rediculous things like "ditch the squish" do not help figure out what is actually happening.
So yeah, again, keep up with the nonsense rather than getting to the actual issue.
Ok, let’s look at it in simple math terms (with pictures even).
Player is in k4 at 3014 SR before the squish.
The squish happens and the player loses 53 points (which you have said dozens of times can’t happen because it doesn’t push them towards k3) moving him to 2961 but he still remains in k4.
He loses his first battle of the season and loses 43 points relegating him into k5.
IF the squish hadn’t happened and he proceeded to lose his first round and those 43 points, he would have been at 2971 and remained in k4.
Not sure how it gets any simpler than that.
If we take the squish out of the equation (as you say it is not causing the issue) he remains in k4. So what issue caused his relegation if not the squish?
This is the only "large scale" data collection I've seen. It makes sense, and follows what we should expect given traditional ELO systems and what CG has said.
I can't account for every fringe case or outlier. If CG changed something (either on purpose or inadvertently), I obviously am not privy to it.
The squish happens at the beginning of each season. Also it would move someone toward k3, not away from it. Stop blaming things on it.
There is no blame if they are stating the facts. 3 people alone in this thread have experienced the same thing and yet somehow you find a way to turn that around on them? They won but still didn't have enough points to stay where they are because of the squish and got demoted. Is there any other way to see this than it is because of the squish? How is it their fault exactly? They can't do more than win, now can they?
I don't know what caused it, but I know what didn't. Keep thinking it's the squish if you want, even though it doesn't occur between rounds. That will only stop you from figuring out what is actually happening, but that's fine with me.
Who said the squish occurs between rounds? Lol! Nobody! People talk about the squish that happened right before this very new season my friend.
It's about the fact that we have a new season now, had only 1 fight in this new season, the squish occured right before it and people now get relegated mid bracket because eventhough they won, their points were too low because of the squish. Wanna twist what people actually said some more or did you really not get what people were talking about here. In that case read the posts again.
That still doesn't explain it. As I said in previous post (and dozens of others) the squish pushes people toward division 3. It can't be responsible for a relegation from k3 to k4.
But keep going with this nonsense.
Is it really nonsense if it’s right?
It's not right. Either it's something else, or the system isn't working as it's supposed to.
Continuing to attribute it to the squish and saying rediculous things like "ditch the squish" do not help figure out what is actually happening.
So yeah, again, keep up with the nonsense rather than getting to the actual issue.
Ok, let’s look at it in simple math terms (with pictures even).
Player is in k4 at 3014 SR before the squish.
The squish happens and the player loses 53 points (which you have said dozens of times can’t happen because it doesn’t push them towards k3) moving him to 2961 but he still remains in k4.
He loses his first battle of the season and loses 43 points relegating him into k5.
IF the squish hadn’t happened and he proceeded to lose his first round and those 43 points, he would have been at 2971 and remained in k4.
Not sure how it gets any simpler than that.
If we take the squish out of the equation (as you say it is not causing the issue) he remains in k4. So what issue caused his relegation if not the squish?
This is the only "large scale" data collection I've seen. It makes sense, and follows what we should expect given traditional ELO systems and what CG has said.
I can't account for every fringe case or outlier. If CG changed something (either on purpose or inadvertently), I obviously am not privy to it.
It not an edge case though, there are quite a few just in my alliance where this is happening.
We have a guy that before the squish was in k3 at 3133.
After the squish his SR was set to 3081 (-52) and he remained in k3.
He won his first round and his SR was set to 3123 (+42) and he was somehow relegated to k4.
They have said the squish won’t cause relegation, but as soon as the squish happens the divisions are rebalanced into the percentages that CG wants and then regardless of the win the player is going to be relegated to k4 and there is nothing they can do about it.
Even your own profile shows that if the squish hadn’t happened you would still be in k3 as opposed to k4, which is what you’re in now.
The squish happens at the beginning of each season. Also it would move someone toward k3, not away from it. Stop blaming things on it.
There is no blame if they are stating the facts. 3 people alone in this thread have experienced the same thing and yet somehow you find a way to turn that around on them? They won but still didn't have enough points to stay where they are because of the squish and got demoted. Is there any other way to see this than it is because of the squish? How is it their fault exactly? They can't do more than win, now can they?
I don't know what caused it, but I know what didn't. Keep thinking it's the squish if you want, even though it doesn't occur between rounds. That will only stop you from figuring out what is actually happening, but that's fine with me.
Who said the squish occurs between rounds? Lol! Nobody! People talk about the squish that happened right before this very new season my friend.
It's about the fact that we have a new season now, had only 1 fight in this new season, the squish occured right before it and people now get relegated mid bracket because eventhough they won, their points were too low because of the squish. Wanna twist what people actually said some more or did you really not get what people were talking about here. In that case read the posts again.
That still doesn't explain it. As I said in previous post (and dozens of others) the squish pushes people toward division 3. It can't be responsible for a relegation from k3 to k4.
But keep going with this nonsense.
Is it really nonsense if it’s right?
It's not right. Either it's something else, or the system isn't working as it's supposed to.
Continuing to attribute it to the squish and saying rediculous things like "ditch the squish" do not help figure out what is actually happening.
So yeah, again, keep up with the nonsense rather than getting to the actual issue.
Ok, let’s look at it in simple math terms (with pictures even).
Player is in k4 at 3014 SR before the squish.
The squish happens and the player loses 53 points (which you have said dozens of times can’t happen because it doesn’t push them towards k3) moving him to 2961 but he still remains in k4.
He loses his first battle of the season and loses 43 points relegating him into k5.
IF the squish hadn’t happened and he proceeded to lose his first round and those 43 points, he would have been at 2971 and remained in k4.
Not sure how it gets any simpler than that.
If we take the squish out of the equation (as you say it is not causing the issue) he remains in k4. So what issue caused his relegation if not the squish?
This is the only "large scale" data collection I've seen. It makes sense, and follows what we should expect given traditional ELO systems and what CG has said.
I can't account for every fringe case or outlier. If CG changed something (either on purpose or inadvertently), I obviously am not privy to it.
It not an edge case though, there are quite a few just in my alliance where this is happening.
We have a guy that before the squish was in k3 at 3133.
After the squish his SR was set to 3081 (-52) and he remained in k3.
He won his first round and his SR was set to 3123 (+42) and he was somehow relegated to k4.
They have said the squish won’t cause relegation, but as soon as the squish happens the divisions are rebalanced into the percentages that CG wants and then regardless of the win the player is going to be relegated to k4 and there is nothing they can do about it.
Even your own profile shows that if the squish hadn’t happened you would still be in k3 as opposed to k4, which is what you’re in now.
I lost, so I expected the downgrade.
They're technically correct that the squish doesn't cause relegation (at least not directly- obviously it ultimately can).
As far as a k4 player losing points, it is not what we should expect, and not what was observed in the past. Either the zero points have changed, or something else is acting on our scores.
The squish happens at the beginning of each season. Also it would move someone toward k3, not away from it. Stop blaming things on it.
There is no blame if they are stating the facts. 3 people alone in this thread have experienced the same thing and yet somehow you find a way to turn that around on them? They won but still didn't have enough points to stay where they are because of the squish and got demoted. Is there any other way to see this than it is because of the squish? How is it their fault exactly? They can't do more than win, now can they?
I don't know what caused it, but I know what didn't. Keep thinking it's the squish if you want, even though it doesn't occur between rounds. That will only stop you from figuring out what is actually happening, but that's fine with me.
Who said the squish occurs between rounds? Lol! Nobody! People talk about the squish that happened right before this very new season my friend.
It's about the fact that we have a new season now, had only 1 fight in this new season, the squish occured right before it and people now get relegated mid bracket because eventhough they won, their points were too low because of the squish. Wanna twist what people actually said some more or did you really not get what people were talking about here. In that case read the posts again.
That still doesn't explain it. As I said in previous post (and dozens of others) the squish pushes people toward division 3. It can't be responsible for a relegation from k3 to k4.
But keep going with this nonsense.
Is it really nonsense if it’s right?
It's not right. Either it's something else, or the system isn't working as it's supposed to.
Continuing to attribute it to the squish and saying rediculous things like "ditch the squish" do not help figure out what is actually happening.
So yeah, again, keep up with the nonsense rather than getting to the actual issue.
Ok, let’s look at it in simple math terms (with pictures even).
Player is in k4 at 3014 SR before the squish.
The squish happens and the player loses 53 points (which you have said dozens of times can’t happen because it doesn’t push them towards k3) moving him to 2961 but he still remains in k4.
He loses his first battle of the season and loses 43 points relegating him into k5.
IF the squish hadn’t happened and he proceeded to lose his first round and those 43 points, he would have been at 2971 and remained in k4.
Not sure how it gets any simpler than that.
If we take the squish out of the equation (as you say it is not causing the issue) he remains in k4. So what issue caused his relegation if not the squish?
This is the only "large scale" data collection I've seen. It makes sense, and follows what we should expect given traditional ELO systems and what CG has said.
I can't account for every fringe case or outlier. If CG changed something (either on purpose or inadvertently), I obviously am not privy to it.
It not an edge case though, there are quite a few just in my alliance where this is happening.
We have a guy that before the squish was in k3 at 3133.
After the squish his SR was set to 3081 (-52) and he remained in k3.
He won his first round and his SR was set to 3123 (+42) and he was somehow relegated to k4.
They have said the squish won’t cause relegation, but as soon as the squish happens the divisions are rebalanced into the percentages that CG wants and then regardless of the win the player is going to be relegated to k4 and there is nothing they can do about it.
Even your own profile shows that if the squish hadn’t happened you would still be in k3 as opposed to k4, which is what you’re in now.
I lost, so I expected the downgrade.
They're technically correct that the squish doesn't cause relegation (at least not directly- obviously it ultimately can).
As far as a k4 player losing points, it is not what we should expect, and not what was observed in the past. Either the zero points have changed, or something else is acting on our scores.
It was already observed in the past. People pointed this out ever since the change happened. You just always thought it was another reason because you thought the system worked differently (squishing people toward 3) and therefor didn't take it seriously what those people said.
Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not meant as an attack. It's just what I observed reading the posts and comments on the subject.
It works like this, at the start of season there is squish skill rating points. For example you are starting in k4, but they removed some points so you skill rating is k5. You can win first round but if you didnt have enough points to stay in k4, you will get demoted to k5. And from that you need to win more than loose, to stay in kyber league. So if you will win 6 and loose 6 you will get demoted to lower league at the end of the season. If this patern 6wins/6lost will be happening you will be demoted every season, to lower division and after few seasons to lower league. That is the absurd of this squish skill rating points. And that made me to decide to quit playing this stupid game.
That would be understandably frustrating, but it's not really that absurd if you think about it. Rosters grow, and skills develop, so it would actually be natural that a 50% WR is not enough to keep you where you are. The Squad and Fleet Arenas work the same way. If you stick to the same squad, you will drop in ranks eventually.
But if a 50% win rate is not enough, then this system is not right, because as it is, it is designed to give everyone a 50% win rate. So, automatically it would push you down just because it is designed as 50% if what you say is the case.
Well, we need to be more accurate here. The Matchmaking is designed to give everyone an expectation of 50% WR, based on everyone's historical performance. All these squishes and division adjustments, being another part of the system, actually have nothing to do with the MM and the 50% WR goal, but are just means to achieve the desired (by CG) population distribution. It is in that part of the system, not the MM, where roster growth has an effect. More and more people will get more and more GLs, legendaries, etc. 3 GLs plus the Executor can make it to low K1 last year, but these days it's 4 GLs plus 6 serviceable fleets. So people growing slower would not actually be able to stay where they are by doing 50%, because doing 50% just means you are average against others at your SR level, but there are constantly more players making into higher levels and in turn pushing you down through the redistribution process.
Well, I asked for some examples, and you guys provided them. I am now confident in saying that I have no idea how the squish works O.o
I think it would be nice if CG explained this to us because it is clearly causing frustration and confusion. While I wait for CG's response, I'll be on the lookout for flying pigs.
The squish happens at the beginning of each season. Also it would move someone toward k3, not away from it. Stop blaming things on it.
There is no blame if they are stating the facts. 3 people alone in this thread have experienced the same thing and yet somehow you find a way to turn that around on them? They won but still didn't have enough points to stay where they are because of the squish and got demoted. Is there any other way to see this than it is because of the squish? How is it their fault exactly? They can't do more than win, now can they?
I don't know what caused it, but I know what didn't. Keep thinking it's the squish if you want, even though it doesn't occur between rounds. That will only stop you from figuring out what is actually happening, but that's fine with me.
Who said the squish occurs between rounds? Lol! Nobody! People talk about the squish that happened right before this very new season my friend.
It's about the fact that we have a new season now, had only 1 fight in this new season, the squish occured right before it and people now get relegated mid bracket because eventhough they won, their points were too low because of the squish. Wanna twist what people actually said some more or did you really not get what people were talking about here. In that case read the posts again.
That still doesn't explain it. As I said in previous post (and dozens of others) the squish pushes people toward division 3. It can't be responsible for a relegation from k3 to k4.
But keep going with this nonsense.
Is it really nonsense if it’s right?
It's not right. Either it's something else, or the system isn't working as it's supposed to.
Continuing to attribute it to the squish and saying rediculous things like "ditch the squish" do not help figure out what is actually happening.
So yeah, again, keep up with the nonsense rather than getting to the actual issue.
Ok, let’s look at it in simple math terms (with pictures even).
Player is in k4 at 3014 SR before the squish.
The squish happens and the player loses 53 points (which you have said dozens of times can’t happen because it doesn’t push them towards k3) moving him to 2961 but he still remains in k4.
He loses his first battle of the season and loses 43 points relegating him into k5.
IF the squish hadn’t happened and he proceeded to lose his first round and those 43 points, he would have been at 2971 and remained in k4.
Not sure how it gets any simpler than that.
If we take the squish out of the equation (as you say it is not causing the issue) he remains in k4. So what issue caused his relegation if not the squish?
This is the only "large scale" data collection I've seen. It makes sense, and follows what we should expect given traditional ELO systems and what CG has said.
I can't account for every fringe case or outlier. If CG changed something (either on purpose or inadvertently), I obviously am not privy to it.
It not an edge case though, there are quite a few just in my alliance where this is happening.
We have a guy that before the squish was in k3 at 3133.
After the squish his SR was set to 3081 (-52) and he remained in k3.
He won his first round and his SR was set to 3123 (+42) and he was somehow relegated to k4.
They have said the squish won’t cause relegation, but as soon as the squish happens the divisions are rebalanced into the percentages that CG wants and then regardless of the win the player is going to be relegated to k4 and there is nothing they can do about it.
Even your own profile shows that if the squish hadn’t happened you would still be in k3 as opposed to k4, which is what you’re in now.
I lost, so I expected the downgrade.
They're technically correct that the squish doesn't cause relegation (at least not directly- obviously it ultimately can).
As far as a k4 player losing points, it is not what we should expect, and not what was observed in the past. Either the zero points have changed, or something else is acting on our scores.
It was already observed in the past. People pointed this out ever since the change happened. You just always thought it was another reason because you thought the system worked differently (squishing people toward 3) and therefor didn't take it seriously what those people said.
Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not meant as an attack. It's just what I observed reading the posts and comments on the subject.
There were plenty of those complaints that were easily dismissed as incorrect understanding of what was happening. The one and only large collection of data showed EVERY SINGLE person moved toward division 3. I still have absolutely no reason to believe that is not the intended mechanic.
Now, clearly there is a piece of the system that can, in certain cases, appear to have a different effect. I don't know what that is yet. It may have something to do with larger than usual movements from one league to another, causing some people to be bumped down if they have been "leap frogged" over by too many people. Although the squish would generally contract scores moving people toward 3, that subset of people would still be forced down giving a localized appearance of the squish removing points.
The squish seems to be applied differently for kyber than the other leagues. I went through the gg pages for a few guilds in our alliance, but you can look at any guild obviously. In every single case I looked at, if it was outside of kyber, the player lost or gained points based on their position relative to the median score of their respective league, pushing them closer to the middle.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
The squish seems to be applied differently for kyber than the other leagues. I went through the gg pages for a few guilds in our alliance, but you can look at any guild obviously. In every single case I looked at, if it was outside of kyber, the player lost or gained points based on their position relative to the median score of their respective league, pushing them closer to the middle.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
I don't fully understand this system. I had this hunch that k1 was getting smaller, so I followed the size from swgoh.gg a bit. The reverse of that happened. (don't ask me about why the sr is like that, still shows exactly like that on swgoh.gg)
The squish seems to be applied differently for kyber than the other leagues. I went through the gg pages for a few guilds in our alliance, but you can look at any guild obviously. In every single case I looked at, if it was outside of kyber, the player lost or gained points based on their position relative to the median score of their respective league, pushing them closer to the middle.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
In my mind there are 2 mechanisms at work. There is the squish, which is a contraction of SR which pushes us to division 3 of our respective leagues. Then there is a second that balances the percentages in each league.
So the squish is adding points to a k4 player, but the balancing is causing a net loss (but not as much of a loss as would have been without the squish).
So, when I say the squish doesn't lower scores for k4 players, that is still true. At least to me, as I only consider the squish to be the initial contraction.
I appreciate your looking at and sharing that info. It is helpful, and hopefully we kinda got this figured out now 😀
The squish seems to be applied differently for kyber than the other leagues. I went through the gg pages for a few guilds in our alliance, but you can look at any guild obviously. In every single case I looked at, if it was outside of kyber, the player lost or gained points based on their position relative to the median score of their respective league, pushing them closer to the middle.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
I don't fully understand this system. I had this hunch that k1 was getting smaller, so I followed the size from swgoh.gg a bit. The reverse of that happened. (don't ask me about why the sr is like that, still shows exactly like that on swgoh.gg)
It's a percentage of overall population, not a discreet size. Idk what is happening with overall population, but if it's growing, then kyber should grow proportionally.
The squish seems to be applied differently for kyber than the other leagues. I went through the gg pages for a few guilds in our alliance, but you can look at any guild obviously. In every single case I looked at, if it was outside of kyber, the player lost or gained points based on their position relative to the median score of their respective league, pushing them closer to the middle.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
I don't fully understand this system. I had this hunch that k1 was getting smaller, so I followed the size from swgoh.gg a bit. The reverse of that happened. (don't ask me about why the sr is like that, still shows exactly like that on swgoh.gg)
It's a percentage of overall population, not a discreet size. Idk what is happening with overall population, but if it's growing, then kyber should grow proportionally.
Consider it like this, I'm putting dates from the files as well;
2022-04-23
2022-04-26
No change till the squish, and then
2022-05-16
All are the last person listed as 3610 on swgoh.gg. As you can see there's a significant decrease to the size of k1 after the squish.
The squish seems to be applied differently for kyber than the other leagues. I went through the gg pages for a few guilds in our alliance, but you can look at any guild obviously. In every single case I looked at, if it was outside of kyber, the player lost or gained points based on their position relative to the median score of their respective league, pushing them closer to the middle.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
In my mind there are 2 mechanisms at work. There is the squish, which is a contraction of SR which pushes us to division 3 of our respective leagues. Then there is a second that balances the percentages in each league.
So the squish is adding points to a k4 player, but the balancing is causing a net loss (but not as much of a loss as would have been without the squish).
So, when I say the squish doesn't lower scores for k4 players, that is still true. At least to me, as I only consider the squish to be the initial contraction.
I appreciate your looking at and sharing that info. It is helpful, and hopefully we kinda got this figured out now 😀
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree I guess. The balancing is not causing any change in points, it simply resets the floor for the leagues/divisions to keep the percentage goals that CG has set. In every single case I looked at in kyber the squish caused a 39 to 53 point loss (never once did I see points added) and I see no other mechanism in the system outside of a normal win/loss event that is causing a change in SR.
It's a percentage of overall population, not a discreet size. Idk what is happening with overall population, but if it's growing, then kyber should grow proportionally.
Oh also, you can see for yourself, the value of the cut is not dynamic. It only changes on event intervals. The values I quoted are the only change in those durations. Next such change will happen after the week is done going by this experience.
Hahahaha, what is the point of this discussion? This system is an absurd. It doesnt matter really if you can win 6 rounds... You will get demoted. It works like this... An absurd **** solution is this skill squish rating point
Wouldn't be as bad if they announced this was the way it was going to work. They said there would be a squish. A squish, not a squish before every single round. Wouldn't be so bad if the entire reason for it was to pay out less crystals daily, as that is the whole reason as far as i can figure.
Once again, like most things CG does, they are very bad at using words, be it character abilities descriptions or game changes.
It's because they are applying a faulty mathematical model to the system. They are probably using distribution curve where they parse out the upper tail and lower tails for Kyber and the Chromium divison respectively. This is why you see everyone starting to bunch in the middle. The squish is modeled to push people to a median score, hence the 50% win rate.
The problem with this is because the math is done across the entire galaxy. Therefore, everyone gets pushed down or up with every battle all towards some median point that we are calling Division 3. The only solution is to apply it to each division and then move people in and out after each week of GAC. But that means they are going to have to code it differently and you know that will never happen.
So it's going to break and peoples crystals are going to be affected which sucks
Wouldn't be as bad if they announced this was the way it was going to work. They said there would be a squish. A squish, not a squish before every single round. Wouldn't be so bad if the entire reason for it was to pay out less crystals daily, as that is the whole reason as far as i can figure.
In all honesty...i dont really get how the squish is supposed to work...i would not even know it was a "thing" if i didnt come into the forum...in the game i never saw its effects...not saying it didnt happen, just it does not seem to be very relevant.
I am receiving A LOT MORE crystals since they changed the system...so if somebody is getting less i would rather know what is their "problem"...i am under the impression a lot of players managed to "tune" their rosters to get mostly wins...and as the new system "pushes" to 50% or so, these players get worse results.
BTW...last GAC i had at least 5 opponents BELOW MY GP...first time since they changed...so i GUESS it is converging "as planed"...(or was a fluke...will see next GAC). (I have been fairly consistent in Chromium 3 and 4)
In all honesty...i dont really get how the squish is supposed to work...i would not even know it was a "thing" if i didnt come into the forum...in the game i never saw its effects...not saying it didnt happen, just it does not seem to be very relevant.
While it is not relevant now as you are earning more crystals at some point it will be. The idea is to push people down levels. Get people out of K1 that has a snowball effect the whole way through the ladder. IT is what it is, not really griping about it. Just something that was unannounced or talked about outside of the forums as it is a underhanded move imo. Obviously too many people were reaping the highest reward which GC doesn't like as you are less likely to buy crystal packs. It's just slimy if you ask me.
The squish seems to be applied differently for kyber than the other leagues. I went through the gg pages for a few guilds in our alliance, but you can look at any guild obviously. In every single case I looked at, if it was outside of kyber, the player lost or gained points based on their position relative to the median score of their respective league, pushing them closer to the middle.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
In my mind there are 2 mechanisms at work. There is the squish, which is a contraction of SR which pushes us to division 3 of our respective leagues. Then there is a second that balances the percentages in each league.
So the squish is adding points to a k4 player, but the balancing is causing a net loss (but not as much of a loss as would have been without the squish).
So, when I say the squish doesn't lower scores for k4 players, that is still true. At least to me, as I only consider the squish to be the initial contraction.
I appreciate your looking at and sharing that info. It is helpful, and hopefully we kinda got this figured out now 😀
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree I guess. The balancing is not causing any change in points, it simply resets the floor for the leagues/divisions to keep the percentage goals that CG has set. In every single case I looked at in kyber the squish caused a 39 to 53 point loss (never once did I see points added) and I see no other mechanism in the system outside of a normal win/loss event that is causing a change in SR.
So if the floor moves before the squish, wouldn't that give an apparent effect of lost points?
So are they skill squishing after every round cuz I won 2 lost the last one was k3 and now k4 after loosing one battle usually If you lost 1 you stayed in your rank
So are they skill squishing after every round cuz I won 2 lost the last one was k3 and now k4 after loosing one battle usually If you lost 1 you stayed in your rank
Replies
Who said the whole system needs to go?
The most I saw from people posting about it are criticizing aspects of the GAC system not the whole, for example MM or the squish. And some of those aspects definitely should/need to be adjusted.
I also think it's more than fair if people point out the discrepancies between what CG said how it should be and how it actually is. Especially if we don't even know if that is wai or if those discrepancies are unforseen/unwanted. So in order to find out if this really is what CG intended is to bring it up and hope for an explanation.
And if they are in fact working as intended it is absolutely understandable if people feel betrayed or lied to.
I also don't think that it is silly if people voice their opinion about something new, especially if CG told them something different than it is.
Did I misunderstanding the meaning of #ditchthesquish?
The squish is an aspect/part of the system but it is not the whole system.
This is the only "large scale" data collection I've seen. It makes sense, and follows what we should expect given traditional ELO systems and what CG has said.
I can't account for every fringe case or outlier. If CG changed something (either on purpose or inadvertently), I obviously am not privy to it.
It not an edge case though, there are quite a few just in my alliance where this is happening.
We have a guy that before the squish was in k3 at 3133.
After the squish his SR was set to 3081 (-52) and he remained in k3.
He won his first round and his SR was set to 3123 (+42) and he was somehow relegated to k4.
They have said the squish won’t cause relegation, but as soon as the squish happens the divisions are rebalanced into the percentages that CG wants and then regardless of the win the player is going to be relegated to k4 and there is nothing they can do about it.
Even your own profile shows that if the squish hadn’t happened you would still be in k3 as opposed to k4, which is what you’re in now.
DISCLAIMER: Post is subject to change.
I lost, so I expected the downgrade.
They're technically correct that the squish doesn't cause relegation (at least not directly- obviously it ultimately can).
As far as a k4 player losing points, it is not what we should expect, and not what was observed in the past. Either the zero points have changed, or something else is acting on our scores.
It was already observed in the past. People pointed this out ever since the change happened. You just always thought it was another reason because you thought the system worked differently (squishing people toward 3) and therefor didn't take it seriously what those people said.
Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not meant as an attack. It's just what I observed reading the posts and comments on the subject.
Well, we need to be more accurate here. The Matchmaking is designed to give everyone an expectation of 50% WR, based on everyone's historical performance. All these squishes and division adjustments, being another part of the system, actually have nothing to do with the MM and the 50% WR goal, but are just means to achieve the desired (by CG) population distribution. It is in that part of the system, not the MM, where roster growth has an effect. More and more people will get more and more GLs, legendaries, etc. 3 GLs plus the Executor can make it to low K1 last year, but these days it's 4 GLs plus 6 serviceable fleets. So people growing slower would not actually be able to stay where they are by doing 50%, because doing 50% just means you are average against others at your SR level, but there are constantly more players making into higher levels and in turn pushing you down through the redistribution process.
I think it would be nice if CG explained this to us because it is clearly causing frustration and confusion. While I wait for CG's response, I'll be on the lookout for flying pigs.
There were plenty of those complaints that were easily dismissed as incorrect understanding of what was happening. The one and only large collection of data showed EVERY SINGLE person moved toward division 3. I still have absolutely no reason to believe that is not the intended mechanic.
Now, clearly there is a piece of the system that can, in certain cases, appear to have a different effect. I don't know what that is yet. It may have something to do with larger than usual movements from one league to another, causing some people to be bumped down if they have been "leap frogged" over by too many people. Although the squish would generally contract scores moving people toward 3, that subset of people would still be forced down giving a localized appearance of the squish removing points.
In the case of kyber, every single person I looked at lost points in the squish regardless of their relative position to the median pushing them closer to the lower boundary of kyber. It is becoming clear that it will likely remain that way until CG reaches their desired league percentages of which kyber is too large and therefore paying out more crystals than CG likes.
Now this was only a couple hundred samples and I’m not saying there may not be a couple outliers but I never found a single account in kyber that didn’t lose points due to the squish.
DISCLAIMER: Post is subject to change.
I don't fully understand this system. I had this hunch that k1 was getting smaller, so I followed the size from swgoh.gg a bit. The reverse of that happened. (don't ask me about why the sr is like that, still shows exactly like that on swgoh.gg)
In my mind there are 2 mechanisms at work. There is the squish, which is a contraction of SR which pushes us to division 3 of our respective leagues. Then there is a second that balances the percentages in each league.
So the squish is adding points to a k4 player, but the balancing is causing a net loss (but not as much of a loss as would have been without the squish).
So, when I say the squish doesn't lower scores for k4 players, that is still true. At least to me, as I only consider the squish to be the initial contraction.
I appreciate your looking at and sharing that info. It is helpful, and hopefully we kinda got this figured out now 😀
It's a percentage of overall population, not a discreet size. Idk what is happening with overall population, but if it's growing, then kyber should grow proportionally.
Consider it like this, I'm putting dates from the files as well;
2022-04-23
2022-04-26
No change till the squish, and then
2022-05-16
All are the last person listed as 3610 on swgoh.gg. As you can see there's a significant decrease to the size of k1 after the squish.
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree I guess. The balancing is not causing any change in points, it simply resets the floor for the leagues/divisions to keep the percentage goals that CG has set. In every single case I looked at in kyber the squish caused a 39 to 53 point loss (never once did I see points added) and I see no other mechanism in the system outside of a normal win/loss event that is causing a change in SR.
DISCLAIMER: Post is subject to change.
Oh also, you can see for yourself, the value of the cut is not dynamic. It only changes on event intervals. The values I quoted are the only change in those durations. Next such change will happen after the week is done going by this experience.
Once again, like most things CG does, they are very bad at using words, be it character abilities descriptions or game changes.
The problem with this is because the math is done across the entire galaxy. Therefore, everyone gets pushed down or up with every battle all towards some median point that we are calling Division 3. The only solution is to apply it to each division and then move people in and out after each week of GAC. But that means they are going to have to code it differently and you know that will never happen.
So it's going to break and peoples crystals are going to be affected which sucks
I am receiving A LOT MORE crystals since they changed the system...so if somebody is getting less i would rather know what is their "problem"...i am under the impression a lot of players managed to "tune" their rosters to get mostly wins...and as the new system "pushes" to 50% or so, these players get worse results.
BTW...last GAC i had at least 5 opponents BELOW MY GP...first time since they changed...so i GUESS it is converging "as planed"...(or was a fluke...will see next GAC). (I have been fairly consistent in Chromium 3 and 4)
While it is not relevant now as you are earning more crystals at some point it will be. The idea is to push people down levels. Get people out of K1 that has a snowball effect the whole way through the ladder. IT is what it is, not really griping about it. Just something that was unannounced or talked about outside of the forums as it is a underhanded move imo. Obviously too many people were reaping the highest reward which GC doesn't like as you are less likely to buy crystal packs. It's just slimy if you ask me.
So if the floor moves before the squish, wouldn't that give an apparent effect of lost points?
No.