Just to clear this out!! (Advantage)

TheDukeofDukes22

The upcoming change to what Advantage does is a BALANCE (closer to a nerf than to a buff), it is not a buff nor it is only a change. 100% penetration was going to be too good in the new meta, so they nerfed it.

Arube

What...?

HaloWars29

WHAAAAT?

TheDukeofDukes22

Don't you agree? @Arube @HaloWars29 ?

HaloWars29

It's obviously a buff, a guaranteed crit is way more valuable than defense penetration.

Nauros

All the "crit matters" characters would disagree...

TheDukeofDukes22

@HaloWars29 I don't agree. Criticals where happening already, doesn't change as much as it changes 100% penetration in a "protection/armour" meta. (Not saying the meta is only about that, just that protection will be way more important)

Jaesyn_Beaz

HaloWars29 wrote: »

It's obviously a buff, a guaranteed crit is way more valuable than defense penetration.

Unless that penetration penetrates protection and hits directly to health.

droctane

Assuming defense now reduces damage (i.e. 100 defense = 10% damage reduction), then OP is right. Bypassing defense will do a lot more damage than a crit in the next update. Which also means that stock in Magmatrooper should go up exponentially

HaloWars29

Advantage only provided 100% penetration to defense. Which only protected, at most, like 400 hp per hit. Most characters had around 200-300hp defense. While criticals are a guaranteed 1.5x damage. With high damage characters, that could mean a lot more damage done than what otherwise could be done with the old advantage.

Greg1920

This is a massive meta shift. The terms need and buff no longer apply. All characters utility relative to eachother will change. A nerf or buff only really applies to a change to a specific character within a current meta.

Everything is changing. So the whiny nerf/buff terms really have no place.

To your question its it depends. In the new mechanic does armour reduce damage by 50% or more? I'd so the change reduces the power of the ability if not it increases it. Also you'd need to factor crit damage bonuses and the base crit %.

But the question really shows the stupidity of the buff/nerf framework of discussion as its a buff to the current ability however after the buff armour which nerfs everyone's damage armour penetration becomes more valuable. So if you make the change to advantage first then it's a buff to advantage as it improved. If you make the change to armour first we don't know if it's a buff or nerf. Order matters

Or we could recognize that buff/nerf is a stupid way of framing the discussion

Big_Boss

Jaesyn_Beaz wrote: »

HaloWars29 wrote: »

It's obviously a buff, a guaranteed crit is way more valuable than defense penetration.

Unless that penetration penetrates protection and hits directly to health.

Exactly

TheDukeofDukes22

HaloWars29 wrote: »

Advantage only provided 100% penetration to defense. Which only protected, at most, like 400 hp per hit. Most characters had around 200-300hp defense. While criticals are a guaranteed 1.5x damage. With high damage characters, that could mean a lot more damage done than what otherwise could be done with the old advantage.

Exactly, in the game as it is currently, it would be a buff, but for the game as it will be after the update, it is a debuff.

TheDukeofDukes22

@Greg1920 I believe it would be a buff within this meta and a debuff/nerf to the upcoming one.

Arube

@TheDukeofDukes22 You can't possibly call it a nerf if it hasn't been tested or released in the update.

Greg1920

TheDukeofDukes22 wrote: »

@Greg1920 I believe it would be a buff within this meta and a debuff/nerf to the upcoming one.

That assumes a path dependant change.

The ability will cause more damage to be done in the new system then the current system. -- buff

HaloWars29

TheDukeofDukes22 wrote: »

HaloWars29 wrote: »

Advantage only provided 100% penetration to defense. Which only protected, at most, like 400 hp per hit. Most characters had around 200-300hp defense. While criticals are a guaranteed 1.5x damage. With high damage characters, that could mean a lot more damage done than what otherwise could be done with the old advantage.

Exactly, in the game as it is currently, it would be a buff, but for the game as it will be after the update, it is a debuff.

Even after the update, it still wouldn't be considered a nerf. Unless they significantly improved defense (armor). But we can't currently tell how much more they're gonna buff it. For all we know, it can just be another 100hp of protection, which wouldn't be very much. Even then, Advantage would of been only more beneficial if the battles lasted longer so the extra damage adds up, were on the other hand, an insta crit gives you all the damage now.

TheDukeofDukes22

Think about this: a character does 1k damage. With 100% penetration he will be doin 1k trye damage. At the same time, if critical hit is added, he will do 1.5k minus the protection. If the protection is 33.34% or higher, he will end up doinf 999 or less damage.

Greg1920

Right now crit adds 100-200 damage. --> in future update the ability adds 50% damage -- buff

You are creating a gamestate that doesn't exist and the claiming it's a nerf from an imaginary gamestate.

This entire argument is dumb though

Olle

I 100% agree with OP. Although it can't really be considered a nerf as much as a balance for the new patch.

SidiousIsPikachu

TheDukeofDukes22 wrote: »

Think about this: a character does 1k damage. With 100% penetration he will be doin 1k trye damage. At the same time, if critical hit is added, he will do 1.5k minus the protection. If the protection is 33.34% or higher, he will end up doinf 999 or less damage.

hmm... right now, 1k damage will do 1.2K to target since, while crit is 1.5k, but you right mostly.
however, on FOTP for example, its a debuff no matter what. He crits a lot, dont need the adv crit bonus. his special -instead of doing 14K damage when crit and 100% def pen, now he'll do 12K, crit only.

Olle

Although some characters, like GS, who benefit from crits by granting TM, will see a buff from phasma.

But mostly it's a balance to the armor ability.

Also we don't know if this crit bonus applies to basics only or special abilities. If it's basics only then it is definitely a "nerf".

TheDukeofDukes22

@SidiousIsPikachu I think you did not explain your math well, or maybe I did not get it. But it is true that for some characters that do not need critical chance (because they have a lot) it will be less helpful.

TheDukeofDukes22

Greg1920 wrote: »

Right now crit adds 100-200 damage. --> in future update the ability adds 50% damage -- buff

You are creating a gamestate that doesn't exist and the claiming it's a nerf from an imaginary gamestate.

This entire argument is dumb though

In what universe critical chance only adds 100-200 damage?? We are talking for higher levels not the 40 level you seem to be in.

TheDukeofDukes22

@Olle very true... I would change the thread. It is a balance, not necesarily a nerf.

Heisen

OP has a point. However I do wonder why then they didn't just nerf advantage to something like 50% armor penetration or something. Perhaps they felt that giving more crit synergies would be more interesting?

Olle

Advantage bonuses stay on toons for almost the whole fight as you target one after the other.

One crit is not worth 100% armor penetration for most of the fight if armor in fact matters, and I'm sure most of you know a lot of characters crit a lot with zero crit bonus. I see Rey and GS crit all the time with zero bonus. Hell daka crits a bunch too.

HaloWars29

Armor isn't a percentage though, according SWGoH Cantina. It's a straight up damage reduction. So if a character had 400 armor, he will always reduce only 400 incoming damage. For a character doing 1k damage, 400 damage protection does seem pretty decent. But for one that is doing 12k damage, it's only gonna reduce it to 11.6k. And not many characters have 400 armor. Most are around the 100-300 range. If you're talking about the new protection mechanic. The old Advantage mechanic wouldn't have any effect on it, since it only 100% penetrates armor, not protection.

Devour

Nerfing things that aren't implemented yet? Makes perfect sense.

HaloWars29

Olle wrote: »

Advantage bonuses stay on toons for almost the whole fight as you target one after the other.

One crit is not worth 100% armor penetration for most of the fight if armor in fact matters, and I'm sure most of you know a lot of characters crit a lot with zero crit bonus. I see Rey and GS crit all the time with zero bonus. Hell daka crits a bunch too.

But that's just it, armor isn't a game changer as the game currently is. They did mention that it was getting increased in the next update, but it would have to be a significant one for it to make the changes being made to advantage seem like a nerf. I just looked at my list of characters, about 9 7*, the highest armor I could find was 210 from FOST, that's around 305 with defense up. So at most, he would be deflecting 305 damage from every attack, which is negligible considering many characrers do way higher damage. FOTP can do 4k damage on his basic. 6k damage with crit. You'd rather take tiny damage boost per round rather than a guaranteed 1.5x damage boost? Armor would have to go way up before we could ever call the change to advantage a nerf. The only way I can see the new update as being a nerf to Advantage is the addition of Protection. If it works like it it appears to be, a shield on top of your health, then it could really counteract early crits efficiently. But their's still more information needed to guarantee that.

rainpro

Ya... so I don't know how many of you actually play FO but it's not like they don't crit a ton already. The change to advantage isn't going to benefit FO much in that aspect. Also the change to FOO does not seem like a good change from what's been datamined but I hope what we've seen is wrong. I hope the dev comment on the reddit forums proves correct and this is in fact better for FO. We'll just have to wait and see.