Seriously you can justify the difference with bold font all you like but the differences are so subtle to be almost non existent.
The main difference is
1. Vader shards- Dev said Exploit!
2. Solo shards- Dev said Well done guys carry on!
When this gets patched which it surely will now will it be a bug fix or a change to the designed system?
It'll be a change to the designed system because they clearly said it was not a bug and that they would evaluate making a change to the designed system.
Something being a bug and something else being NOT A BUG is a subtle difference?
One was about removing friends and adding more from a list to gain shards.
Another is removing members from a guild and adding elsewhere to gain shards.
Spot the difference.
One was a method that involved adding and removing people to take advantage of a bug in the game that shouldn't have existed, and wasn't intentionally put there by the developers.
Another is removing members from a guild and adding them to a different guild so they can participate in more raids, using the system the developers designed and put in place, with zero bugs at play.
They aren't even close to the same thing. This is made even more obvious when you look at the "solution" for solving these "issues"
The first required a BUG FIX to solve.
The other requires a considerable amount of CHANGE TO THE DESIGNED SYSTEM to alter, if needed.
They are not remotely comparable.
Funny:
CG_NotReallyAJediCG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[a potential bug or the likes]"
Guild hopping allows players to recieve shards, gear and credits faster than someone who doesn't and for free. If they are no longer interested in making money why not give all there content away. Han may be a nice bonus but its the unfarmables that matter most. By condoning guild hopping you have just given players a way to farm these unfarmable items but for free.
you're right, someone that guild hops can receive more things than someone who does not. someone who logs in and plays daily will also receive more things than someone who logs in once per week.
everyone can farm raid rewards for free, regardless of guild hopping. you can get raid rewards while being 100% f2p, so i'm not sure why you're bringing price into this.
if you have a personal issue with this, that's fine, but the dev's have said that this is not an exploit. you might disagree with them, but that doesn't make it an exploit.
Seriously you can justify the difference with bold font all you like but the differences are so subtle to be almost non existent.
The main difference is
1. Vader shards- Dev said Exploit!
2. Solo shards- Dev said Well done guys carry on!
When this gets patched which it surely will now will it be a bug fix or a change to the designed system?
It'll be a change to the designed system because they clearly said it was not a bug and that they would evaluate making a change to the designed system.
Something being a bug and something else being NOT A BUG is a subtle difference?
???!?!?
?!?!?!??!??
Do you really really believe the Devs intended people to swap guilds daily to achieve the Solo achievement first?
No of course not.
Some guilds spotted an opportunity, went for it and boasted about it on the forum.
The Devs then realised and said - it's possible within the system so ok go for it.
Funny:
CG_NotReallyAJediCG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[a potential bug or the likes]"
I'm not quite sure I get it?
It's been established there's a bug somewhere in there too but i don't think anyone really even knows how that works, let alone engages in it? It seemed even more confusing than the general reaction to guild hopping.
Obviously the bug part will be fixed, but the bug part isn't the (general) issue here. Two separate things.
Guild hopping allows players to recieve shards, gear and credits faster than someone who doesn't and for free. If they are no longer interested in making money why not give all there content away. Han may be a nice bonus but its the unfarmables that matter most. By condoning guild hopping you have just given players a way to farm these unfarmable items but for free.
if you have a personal issue with this, that's fine, but the dev's have said that this is not an exploit. you might disagree with them, but that doesn't make it an exploit.
Actually, although they said that, and while I doubt they will follow through, they also said this:
CG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[Let me state this very clearly: We are researching this. If you are caught abusing this, you will be banned.]"
Funny:
CG_NotReallyAJediCG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[a potential bug or the likes]"
I'm not quite sure I get it?
It's been established there's a bug somewhere in there too but i don't think anyone really even knows how that works, let alone engages in it? It seemed even more confusing than the general reaction to guild hopping.
Obviously the bug part will be fixed, but the bug part isn't the (general) issue here. Two separate things.
The bug is recieving more rewards by hopping than if you stayed in one guild. A non bug would be equal or diminished rewards for doing so. Abusing it is exploitation. I'd say "fear the ban" but wouldn't be able to do so without dripping sarcasm considering the complicity on cg's part in the whole affair. Regardless, it'll get fixed.
Guild hopping allows players to recieve shards, gear and credits faster than someone who doesn't and for free. If they are no longer interested in making money why not give all there content away. Han may be a nice bonus but its the unfarmables that matter most. By condoning guild hopping you have just given players a way to farm these unfarmable items but for free.
if you have a personal issue with this, that's fine, but the dev's have said that this is not an exploit. you might disagree with them, but that doesn't make it an exploit.
Actually, although they said that, and while I doubt they will follow through, they also said this:
CG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[Let me state this very clearly: We are researching this. If you are caught abusing this, you will be banned.]"
please quote the whole thing:
"It has come to my attention that there may be some unintended behaviour with guild hopping--a potential bug or the likes--that may cause players to get unearned rewards.
Let me state this very clearly: We are researching this. If you are caught abusing this, you will be banned.
We are fine with guild hopping right now, but we are not fine with exploiting the rewards structure for little-to-no work."
there is a bug that is/can cause players to receive unearned rewards.
this is DIFFERENT than guild hopping. if you participate in a raid, change guilds, and participate in another raid, that is not a bug. that is not abusing a bug. it will not get you banned. you would have legitimately taken part in two raids, and received the rewards that go along with two raids.
Funny:
CG_NotReallyAJediCG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[a potential bug or the likes]"
I'm not quite sure I get it?
It's been established there's a bug somewhere in there too but i don't think anyone really even knows how that works, let alone engages in it? It seemed even more confusing than the general reaction to guild hopping.
Obviously the bug part will be fixed, but the bug part isn't the (general) issue here. Two separate things.
The bug is recieving more rewards by hopping than if you stayed in one guild. A non bug would be equal or diminished rewards for doing so. Abusing it is exploitation. I'd say "fear the ban" but wouldn't be able to do so without dripping sarcasm considering the complicity on cg's part in the whole affair. Regardless, it'll get fixed.
That's not a bug, it's just an oversight in the design. I'm sure it will get fixed too, and no one will be punished for it.
Yeah, on occasion, as a coincidental occurance. However, repeatedly doing so, demonstrating intent removes the legitimacy Alita...if not, why have limitations on raids at all? I mean if it's perfectly acceptable to skirt them anyway? Were the limitations the bug?
Seriously you can justify the difference with bold font all you like but the differences are so subtle to be almost non existent.
The main difference is
1. Vader shards- Dev said Exploit!
2. Solo shards- Dev said Well done guys carry on!
When this gets patched which it surely will now will it be a bug fix or a change to the designed system?
It'll be a change to the designed system because they clearly said it was not a bug and that they would evaluate making a change to the designed system.
Something being a bug and something else being NOT A BUG is a subtle difference?
???!?!?
?!?!?!??!??
Do you really really believe the Devs intended people to swap guilds daily to achieve the Solo achievement first?
No of course not.
Some guilds spotted an opportunity, went for it and boasted about it on the forum.
The Devs then realised and said - it's possible within the system so ok go for it.
The forum then reacted and disagreed en masse.
I suspect a patch incoming fairly quickly.
Actually no one really boasted about it, I more or less half jokingly called them out on it and believe me, I regret that now more than anything! They didn't deserve any of this at all.
I believe the devs didn't consider all angles of the system and probably overlooked this. Is it a bug, though? Absolutely not. It's a system that needs polish and I'm sure eventually it'll get it.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
I feel like maybe you guys don't fully understand the Vader exploit and that's where a lot of this confusion is coming from.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
I feel like maybe you guys don't fully understand the Vader exploit and that's where a lot of this confusion is coming from.
I think is have seen you state that you didnt use the guildhopping option before the statement from devs that it was allowed. You pride yourself on being a competative gamer, so i find it hard to believe that you didnt see the opportunity this "loophole" provided, but yet you didnt use it. So you thought it was an exploit aswell. so who are we fooling here ?
Just discuss without calling out any specific people or guilds... Otherwise closed
^ This.. The last thread was closed because it blew up into accusations etc.
Just try to keep things civil and don't call out ANYBODY for ANYTHING.
Thanks.
Dude...then that "anybody" shouldn't be coming to forums and boasting about their guild hopping skills either; in order to compete with "some Chinese guild" to unlock Han Solo.
Maybe should talk to buddies and ask them to back off, take a chillaxin pill...instead of making repeated comments justifying their actions.
If they are not exploiting anything then just move on.
Threatening people with warning is not the way to go.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
I feel like maybe you guys don't fully understand the Vader exploit and that's where a lot of this confusion is coming from.
I think is have seen you state that you didnt use the guildhopping option before the statement from devs that it was allowed. You pride yourself on being a competative gamer, so i find it hard to believe that you didnt see the opportunity this "loophole" provided, but yet you didnt use it. So you thought it was an exploit aswell. so who are we fooling here ?
We just didn't feel the need to do it. We don't really see eye to eye with a lot of you on how profitable it is for the time it takes to do it. And we're all pretty stinkin' geared as it is, we just didn't care.
Looking back now we realize yeah it was probably worth doing to make better effort on Solo shards, can't deny that. Whoops.
I was a fan of the tie the guild coins to account thing. But with enough guild coins assembled even that could potentially be abused.
Just introduce lock out timers. People want to help someone in their guild get more Han shards or better rewards? Let them take first place in the raid. That's cooperative. That's within the guild.
Just discuss without calling out any specific people or guilds... Otherwise closed
^ This.. The last thread was closed because it blew up into accusations etc.
Just try to keep things civil and don't call out ANYBODY for ANYTHING.
Thanks.
Dude...then that "anybody" shouldn't be coming to forums and boasting about their guild hopping skills either; in order to compete with "some Chinese guild" to unlock Han Solo.
Maybe should talk to buddies and ask them to back off, take a chillaxin pill...instead of making repeated comments justifying their actions.
If they are not exploiting anything then just move on.
Threatening people with warning is not the way to go.
Thanks - a paying customer.
Maybe you should actually read our posts for what they're really saying and see that we agree the situation can / should / will probably change, and that we're all for discussing how they should do it, if they do it.
We're not "justifying our actions" insomuch as we are playing devil's advocate. As much as I know a lot of you probably want to sit around agreeing with each other all day and as much as you'd love to facilitate change thanks to a pack mentality, hate to break it to ya - opposing views exist. If you don't want to hear them, don't make public posts in a public forum trying to talk about a situation that has more than one viewpoint to it.
You'll never get anywhere if you can't break passed the mold of just barking exploit exploit exploit. Start, you know, actually being constructive like the OP. His post was spot on. Slowly, though, of course, it started turning in to Yeah! Ban the exploiters! Woo we got this! and less and less of an actual conversation.
Personally, I haven't been able to think up a "real" solution to this. The best I got to was making a player have a 48 hour "cooldown" from raiding with another guild, if they received heroic raid rewards from a raid. That way heroics would be limited to that guild and only that guild for 48 hours. Sure they might leave, or get booted, or want to switch... but 48 hours isn't breaking anyone's back IMO. It's about the time that guild would have to save up coins to do another heroic anyway, unless they already have the coins, in which case that person can just do that one too since the 48 hours just locks them to THAT guild.
It seems like a pretty weird solution though. Probably too weird. I can't figure out how they fix this, honestly.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
I feel like maybe you guys don't fully understand the Vader exploit and that's where a lot of this confusion is coming from.
I think is have seen you state that you didnt use the guildhopping option before the statement from devs that it was allowed. You pride yourself on being a competative gamer, so i find it hard to believe that you didnt see the opportunity this "loophole" provided, but yet you didnt use it. So you thought it was an exploit aswell. so who are we fooling here ?
We just didn't feel the need to do it. We don't really see eye to eye with a lot of you on how profitable it is for the time it takes to do it. And we're all pretty stinkin' geared as it is, we just didn't care.
Looking back now we realize yeah it was probably worth doing to make better effort on Solo shards, can't deny that. Whoops.
so you didnt think it was an exploit before the devs statement? I dont buy the profitable/time it takes and whoops, we didnt realize. I'm sorry, i just dont. The contrast between what you usually write about yourself and your guild and that last statement is just too big. But you dont have to justify anything to me or anyone else for that matter.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
I feel like maybe you guys don't fully understand the Vader exploit and that's where a lot of this confusion is coming from.
I think is have seen you state that you didnt use the guildhopping option before the statement from devs that it was allowed. You pride yourself on being a competative gamer, so i find it hard to believe that you didnt see the opportunity this "loophole" provided, but yet you didnt use it. So you thought it was an exploit aswell. so who are we fooling here ?
We just didn't feel the need to do it. We don't really see eye to eye with a lot of you on how profitable it is for the time it takes to do it. And we're all pretty stinkin' geared as it is, we just didn't care.
Looking back now we realize yeah it was probably worth doing to make better effort on Solo shards, can't deny that. Whoops.
so you didnt think it was an exploit before the devs statement? I dont buy the profitable/time it takes and whoops, we didnt realize. I'm sorry, i just dont. The contrast between what you usually write about yourself and your guild and that last statement is just too big. But you dont have to justify anything to me or anyone else for that matter.
I think you're blurring the lines between what it means to be a competitive gamer and hate the term "cheap," and me claiming we're competitive gamers so we "naturally absolutely had to be doing this." The latter was never what we were going for. The competitive viewpoint is that nothing is cheap, everything is fair game and as long as you aren't ACTUALLY cheating (something only the developers of a game can determine, NOT the players) then you're playing by the rules. "Cheap" is just a term coined by the players that can't see beyond the boundaries of what they think the rules of the game are supposed to be.
It's an important part of why we argue that this isn't an exploit/cheating. It's also an important part of why we decided to do this once we realized we're probably going to lose. It hit a trigger with us - we've been kind of living this fake reality of being on top in more ways than we actually are. Seeing the #1/2 on the leaderboard caused us to grow a bit more complacent than we should have, and now these dudes have caught up and will probably win! Surprise! That's our fault for not bothering to take it more seriously, though, and not their fault for really blazing ahead with this whole guild hopping thing.
Technically we'd have more right to be madder than any of you when we lose by only a mere one or two raids to flat out guild hopping, but you don't see us complaining about this. That's why we're engaging in the conversation surrounding it. All viewpoints on issues as big as this need to be represented. If we just sat around ignoring it and just allowed the "It's an exploit! Burn the cheaters!" angry mob run amok, we'd be allowing a one-sided crowd to potentially fuel major changes to the game, which simply isn't fair to the game. Love it or hate it, all sides have to be considered when making MAJOR changes to a game. (which these will be)
The facts are the facts and I can't believe I'm actually bothering to say this again but once and for all, definitively, there is mathematical proof we weren't guild hopping. If we had been guild hopping, we would have had Han Solo many raids ago. It's that simple. Our top guy is already at over 100 and we have 12 Heroic raids punched in for this month's cycle. How many more raids do you think we need to finish him? How hard would that have been to complete if we had been guild hopping? Do you seriously think we wouldn't have Han Solo unlocked after TWENTY TWO combined TI raids if we had been guild hopping? What possible proof does anyone have that we've been doing them? Because I'm pretty sure I have good evidence supporting that we have not.
I realize it's hard to believe we're here essentially defending the actions of the people that are going to beat us, in the face of an angry crowd, but it is what it is. I make posts to defend what I believe in and stand for, and calling out legitimate players as exploiters for engaging in legal activities is ****. Scream and yell and demand a change to the system, I'll get in line with you and hold up a sign too. But stop calling it cheating.
If both the TI guilds had different names, we would have known how much guild hopping is going on. I do agree that calling out a particular guild is not right, and rightly I feel bad doing that but why:
1. Thier two guilds have thesame name?
2. We could not chance our guild name but they could?
3. What is the ulterior motive of having same guild name for their 2 guilds? So that players of a particular guild in different servers doing guild hoping does not get noticed by the other players? They can basically get double rewards with a very less effort?
Waiting for a genuine answer, rather than being censored.
Because we function as one guild. We wanted to show that in our names. We don't want to give off the impression of a "good guild" and a "B Team" guild and we want you to simply see "Team Instinct" when you load up the leaderboard.
Other guilds have varying names differentiating their playstyles or strengths and you'll hear people make small chatter comments like "Oh you have our guilds mixed up, it's not the STRONG guild but our B team guild, sorry for any confusion"
We have two A teams. We're one guild. We're Team Instinct. Pick a side, it doesn't matter - we don't have strong and weak, we have left and right. This is what works for us.
I understand FTB has modelled our guilds as 4x strong oneshot as well.
Personally I dont get all the hate u are getting.
The problem is the ability to guild hop and not your team.
Naecabon you are exposing a valid point about what leaf thinks about tour previous statement, but as a MOD said, you are not allowed to write about a specific accusation/guild. (Because a -MOD- wrote it, not because I say it nor I like/agree with it... as equal as the you point where players cant determine what cheating is. if you are breaking a rule, say cursing in the chat/mod the software, i DO can say it is cheating, what i can-t do is the determine a punishment).
That said, in order to not close the thread or receive warnings by Bentwookie you should erase/edit your personal guild dialog as leaf should too. Be aware this is a case for all the guild system in general.
One thing to the community, so its basically possible to return to your own guild after 24h, or in the subject of matter, about 48h 1m, why would that be logical. Start with a 96h period of nor reentering a guild is a beginning. Greetings.
Listen let's leave everything out but this...50 guys make 10 alts each. Each of those 500 alts make 10 guilds and they start collecting coins. When they are all ready, those initial 50 guys guild hop and do 10 raids instead of one. Just because nobody did it yet, doesn't mean it is not possible. This is very exploitable, why isn't everybody seeing this? Make guild hopping go away for all and don't take actions against those who did it until now. Simple.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
I feel like maybe you guys don't fully understand the Vader exploit and that's where a lot of this confusion is coming from.
I think is have seen you state that you didnt use the guildhopping option before the statement from devs that it was allowed. You pride yourself on being a competative gamer, so i find it hard to believe that you didnt see the opportunity this "loophole" provided, but yet you didnt use it. So you thought it was an exploit aswell. so who are we fooling here ?
We just didn't feel the need to do it. We don't really see eye to eye with a lot of you on how profitable it is for the time it takes to do it. And we're all pretty stinkin' geared as it is, we just didn't care.
Looking back now we realize yeah it was probably worth doing to make better effort on Solo shards, can't deny that. Whoops.
so you didnt think it was an exploit before the devs statement? I dont buy the profitable/time it takes and whoops, we didnt realize. I'm sorry, i just dont. The contrast between what you usually write about yourself and your guild and that last statement is just too big. But you dont have to justify anything to me or anyone else for that matter.
I think you're blurring the lines between what it means to be a competitive gamer and hate the term "cheap," and me claiming we're competitive gamers so we "naturally absolutely had to be doing this." The latter was never what we were going for. The competitive viewpoint is that nothing is cheap, everything is fair game and as long as you aren't ACTUALLY cheating (something only the developers of a game can determine, NOT the players) then you're playing by the rules. "Cheap" is just a term coined by the players that can't see beyond the boundaries of what they think the rules of the game are supposed to be.
It's an important part of why we argue that this isn't an exploit/cheating. It's also an important part of why we decided to do this once we realized we're probably going to lose. It hit a trigger with us - we've been kind of living this fake reality of being on top in more ways than we actually are. Seeing the #1/2 on the leaderboard caused us to grow a bit more complacent than we should have, and now these dudes have caught up and will probably win! Surprise! That's our fault for not bothering to take it more seriously, though, and not their fault for really blazing ahead with this whole guild hopping thing.
Technically we'd have more right to be madder than any of you when we lose by only a mere one or two raids to flat out guild hopping, but you don't see us complaining about this. That's why we're engaging in the conversation surrounding it. All viewpoints on issues as big as this need to be represented. If we just sat around ignoring it and just allowed the "It's an exploit! Burn the cheaters!" angry mob run amok, we'd be allowing a one-sided crowd to potentially fuel major changes to the game, which simply isn't fair to the game. Love it or hate it, all sides have to be considered when making MAJOR changes to a game. (which these will be)
The facts are the facts and I can't believe I'm actually bothering to say this again but once and for all, definitively, there is mathematical proof we weren't guild hopping. If we had been guild hopping, we would have had Han Solo many raids ago. It's that simple. Our top guy is already at over 100 and we have 12 Heroic raids punched in for this month's cycle. How many more raids do you think we need to finish him? How hard would that have been to complete if we had been guild hopping? Do you seriously think we wouldn't have Han Solo unlocked after TWENTY TWO combined TI raids if we had been guild hopping? What possible proof does anyone have that we've been doing them? Because I'm pretty sure I have good evidence supporting that we have not.
I realize it's hard to believe we're here essentially defending the actions of the people that are going to beat us, in the face of an angry crowd, but it is what it is. I make posts to defend what I believe in and stand for, and calling out legitimate players as exploiters for engaging in legal activities is ****. Scream and yell and demand a change to the system, I'll get in line with you and hold up a sign too. But stop calling it cheating.
We can argue all we want, the fact that it isnt a cheat/exploit remains. I dont blame anyone for using this opportunity. I dont care about it not being ethical or morally unjust or anything like that. I also never called it cheap, nor did i accuse you of using guildhopping. I just dont buy the reasons you stated for not using the guildhopping opportunity before it was officially allowed. I do not understand why you did not use the oportunity either. You had the resources, dedication and knowlegde to benefit from it. Again, i am not blaming or accusing you of anything you did or did not do. I only think that there are some inconsistencies in your approach on this issue.
This thread isnt about if its an exploit/cheat or not. it's not, you dont need to prove that. The real question is if the devs should re-design the guild structure so that it wont be super beneficial to have multiple alt accounts to farm guild bank coins for main accounts. This is not a US vs THEM issue at all. The only reason why the top guilds (mostly ti because they are very vocal on the forum about their accomplishments) are being mentioned is purely based on the fact that top guilds have more dedication than the others, so its logical they will benefit the most, not because they are the only ones capable, but because they are the most willing to put in the effort to stay on top. I admire you for that, but its more easy to "hate" you for it, and that happens alot on this forum. But in all fairness, its an issue that is fueled by both sides. Unnecessary hate towards top results in the top getting more arrogant, and the top getting more arrogant results in more hate, and vice versa. At the end of the day we are all human, and all have our flaws.
The issue devs kinda fixed is how many joins but whales jump into random open guilds take first then leave. And you know what. Im happy these people are not on regular mmorpg. People who spend hundred on a mobile game are likely gold buyers on normal MMOs.
Illegal? No.
Against the spirit of the rules? Yes.
There is no such thing as a spirit of the rules... its not illegal, thats all that counts!
Spirit of the rules is your personal self built prison!
Either go with the flow, or be left behind!
Guild hoppers do what they do to win! Same goes for pre-crafters and p2p players etc
Replies
The main difference is
1. Vader shards- Dev said Exploit!
2. Solo shards- Dev said Well done guys carry on!
When this gets patched which it surely will now will it be a bug fix or a change to the designed system?
It'll be a change to the designed system because they clearly said it was not a bug and that they would evaluate making a change to the designed system.
Something being a bug and something else being NOT A BUG is a subtle difference?
???!?!?
?!?!?!??!??
CG_NotReallyAJediCG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[a potential bug or the likes]"
Funny:
CG_NotReallyAJediCG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[a potential bug or the likes]"
you're right, someone that guild hops can receive more things than someone who does not. someone who logs in and plays daily will also receive more things than someone who logs in once per week.
everyone can farm raid rewards for free, regardless of guild hopping. you can get raid rewards while being 100% f2p, so i'm not sure why you're bringing price into this.
if you have a personal issue with this, that's fine, but the dev's have said that this is not an exploit. you might disagree with them, but that doesn't make it an exploit.
Do you really really believe the Devs intended people to swap guilds daily to achieve the Solo achievement first?
No of course not.
Some guilds spotted an opportunity, went for it and boasted about it on the forum.
The Devs then realised and said - it's possible within the system so ok go for it.
The forum then reacted and disagreed en masse.
I suspect a patch incoming fairly quickly.
I'm not quite sure I get it?
It's been established there's a bug somewhere in there too but i don't think anyone really even knows how that works, let alone engages in it? It seemed even more confusing than the general reaction to guild hopping.
Obviously the bug part will be fixed, but the bug part isn't the (general) issue here. Two separate things.
Actually, although they said that, and while I doubt they will follow through, they also said this:
CG_NotReallyAJedi
May 23 edited May 23 in Developer Updates
Update, 05.23 @ 8pm
"[Let me state this very clearly: We are researching this. If you are caught abusing this, you will be banned.]"
The bug is recieving more rewards by hopping than if you stayed in one guild. A non bug would be equal or diminished rewards for doing so. Abusing it is exploitation. I'd say "fear the ban" but wouldn't be able to do so without dripping sarcasm considering the complicity on cg's part in the whole affair. Regardless, it'll get fixed.
please quote the whole thing:
"It has come to my attention that there may be some unintended behaviour with guild hopping--a potential bug or the likes--that may cause players to get unearned rewards.
Let me state this very clearly: We are researching this. If you are caught abusing this, you will be banned.
We are fine with guild hopping right now, but we are not fine with exploiting the rewards structure for little-to-no work."
there is a bug that is/can cause players to receive unearned rewards.
this is DIFFERENT than guild hopping. if you participate in a raid, change guilds, and participate in another raid, that is not a bug. that is not abusing a bug. it will not get you banned. you would have legitimately taken part in two raids, and received the rewards that go along with two raids.
That's not a bug, it's just an oversight in the design. I'm sure it will get fixed too, and no one will be punished for it.
Actually no one really boasted about it, I more or less half jokingly called them out on it and believe me, I regret that now more than anything! They didn't deserve any of this at all.
I believe the devs didn't consider all angles of the system and probably overlooked this. Is it a bug, though? Absolutely not. It's a system that needs polish and I'm sure eventually it'll get it.
Vote here.
this way is limited to using 150k guild bank coins a day. A player can only change guild once a day. 4(or5) alt accounts is enough. The only reason why it isnt an exploit is because EA/GC dont consider it an exploit. Why they arent considering it an exploit is beyond me, it clearly wasnt intended to let dummy accounts farm guild bank coins for main accounts. The only reason i can think of is they underestimated the scale on wich this "loophole" could be benefitted from. With different timezone alt/dummy acounts you can even bank/use more than 150k guild bank coins a day. it could get out of hand
@Naecabon Dont you really see any similarities between the vader ally add/remove and the guild alt account add/remove ? I know they arent exactly the same, but all the reasons why the vader thing was an exploit are the same for this alt add/remove issue. intent, using (poor) game design, benefitting by unnatural game behaviour. The only difference, and the most important one, is that the devs said it was a game design flaw in case of the vader thing, and it wasnt in the guildhopping case. Previous to their statement that guildhopping was not an exploit, there was no way of knowing if you were abusing an exploit or not. It had all the key charactaristics of an exploit, only the devs descided it wasnt one. If we are being honest, they could have easily descided that it was an exploit and could have banned players for using it.
I feel like maybe you guys don't fully understand the Vader exploit and that's where a lot of this confusion is coming from.
I think is have seen you state that you didnt use the guildhopping option before the statement from devs that it was allowed. You pride yourself on being a competative gamer, so i find it hard to believe that you didnt see the opportunity this "loophole" provided, but yet you didnt use it. So you thought it was an exploit aswell. so who are we fooling here ?
Maybe should talk to buddies and ask them to back off, take a chillaxin pill...instead of making repeated comments justifying their actions.
If they are not exploiting anything then just move on.
Threatening people with warning is not the way to go.
Thanks - a paying customer.
We just didn't feel the need to do it. We don't really see eye to eye with a lot of you on how profitable it is for the time it takes to do it. And we're all pretty stinkin' geared as it is, we just didn't care.
Looking back now we realize yeah it was probably worth doing to make better effort on Solo shards, can't deny that. Whoops.
Just introduce lock out timers. People want to help someone in their guild get more Han shards or better rewards? Let them take first place in the raid. That's cooperative. That's within the guild.
Maybe you should actually read our posts for what they're really saying and see that we agree the situation can / should / will probably change, and that we're all for discussing how they should do it, if they do it.
We're not "justifying our actions" insomuch as we are playing devil's advocate. As much as I know a lot of you probably want to sit around agreeing with each other all day and as much as you'd love to facilitate change thanks to a pack mentality, hate to break it to ya - opposing views exist. If you don't want to hear them, don't make public posts in a public forum trying to talk about a situation that has more than one viewpoint to it.
You'll never get anywhere if you can't break passed the mold of just barking exploit exploit exploit. Start, you know, actually being constructive like the OP. His post was spot on. Slowly, though, of course, it started turning in to Yeah! Ban the exploiters! Woo we got this! and less and less of an actual conversation.
Personally, I haven't been able to think up a "real" solution to this. The best I got to was making a player have a 48 hour "cooldown" from raiding with another guild, if they received heroic raid rewards from a raid. That way heroics would be limited to that guild and only that guild for 48 hours. Sure they might leave, or get booted, or want to switch... but 48 hours isn't breaking anyone's back IMO. It's about the time that guild would have to save up coins to do another heroic anyway, unless they already have the coins, in which case that person can just do that one too since the 48 hours just locks them to THAT guild.
It seems like a pretty weird solution though. Probably too weird. I can't figure out how they fix this, honestly.
so you didnt think it was an exploit before the devs statement? I dont buy the profitable/time it takes and whoops, we didnt realize. I'm sorry, i just dont. The contrast between what you usually write about yourself and your guild and that last statement is just too big. But you dont have to justify anything to me or anyone else for that matter.
This comment makes sense however you try to look at it.
I think you're blurring the lines between what it means to be a competitive gamer and hate the term "cheap," and me claiming we're competitive gamers so we "naturally absolutely had to be doing this." The latter was never what we were going for. The competitive viewpoint is that nothing is cheap, everything is fair game and as long as you aren't ACTUALLY cheating (something only the developers of a game can determine, NOT the players) then you're playing by the rules. "Cheap" is just a term coined by the players that can't see beyond the boundaries of what they think the rules of the game are supposed to be.
It's an important part of why we argue that this isn't an exploit/cheating. It's also an important part of why we decided to do this once we realized we're probably going to lose. It hit a trigger with us - we've been kind of living this fake reality of being on top in more ways than we actually are. Seeing the #1/2 on the leaderboard caused us to grow a bit more complacent than we should have, and now these dudes have caught up and will probably win! Surprise! That's our fault for not bothering to take it more seriously, though, and not their fault for really blazing ahead with this whole guild hopping thing.
Technically we'd have more right to be madder than any of you when we lose by only a mere one or two raids to flat out guild hopping, but you don't see us complaining about this. That's why we're engaging in the conversation surrounding it. All viewpoints on issues as big as this need to be represented. If we just sat around ignoring it and just allowed the "It's an exploit! Burn the cheaters!" angry mob run amok, we'd be allowing a one-sided crowd to potentially fuel major changes to the game, which simply isn't fair to the game. Love it or hate it, all sides have to be considered when making MAJOR changes to a game. (which these will be)
The facts are the facts and I can't believe I'm actually bothering to say this again but once and for all, definitively, there is mathematical proof we weren't guild hopping. If we had been guild hopping, we would have had Han Solo many raids ago. It's that simple. Our top guy is already at over 100 and we have 12 Heroic raids punched in for this month's cycle. How many more raids do you think we need to finish him? How hard would that have been to complete if we had been guild hopping? Do you seriously think we wouldn't have Han Solo unlocked after TWENTY TWO combined TI raids if we had been guild hopping? What possible proof does anyone have that we've been doing them? Because I'm pretty sure I have good evidence supporting that we have not.
I realize it's hard to believe we're here essentially defending the actions of the people that are going to beat us, in the face of an angry crowd, but it is what it is. I make posts to defend what I believe in and stand for, and calling out legitimate players as exploiters for engaging in legal activities is ****. Scream and yell and demand a change to the system, I'll get in line with you and hold up a sign too. But stop calling it cheating.
I understand FTB has modelled our guilds as 4x strong oneshot as well.
Personally I dont get all the hate u are getting.
The problem is the ability to guild hop and not your team.
That said, in order to not close the thread or receive warnings by Bentwookie you should erase/edit your personal guild dialog as leaf should too. Be aware this is a case for all the guild system in general.
One thing to the community, so its basically possible to return to your own guild after 24h, or in the subject of matter, about 48h 1m, why would that be logical. Start with a 96h period of nor reentering a guild is a beginning. Greetings.
We can argue all we want, the fact that it isnt a cheat/exploit remains. I dont blame anyone for using this opportunity. I dont care about it not being ethical or morally unjust or anything like that. I also never called it cheap, nor did i accuse you of using guildhopping. I just dont buy the reasons you stated for not using the guildhopping opportunity before it was officially allowed. I do not understand why you did not use the oportunity either. You had the resources, dedication and knowlegde to benefit from it. Again, i am not blaming or accusing you of anything you did or did not do. I only think that there are some inconsistencies in your approach on this issue.
This thread isnt about if its an exploit/cheat or not. it's not, you dont need to prove that. The real question is if the devs should re-design the guild structure so that it wont be super beneficial to have multiple alt accounts to farm guild bank coins for main accounts. This is not a US vs THEM issue at all. The only reason why the top guilds (mostly ti because they are very vocal on the forum about their accomplishments) are being mentioned is purely based on the fact that top guilds have more dedication than the others, so its logical they will benefit the most, not because they are the only ones capable, but because they are the most willing to put in the effort to stay on top. I admire you for that, but its more easy to "hate" you for it, and that happens alot on this forum. But in all fairness, its an issue that is fueled by both sides. Unnecessary hate towards top results in the top getting more arrogant, and the top getting more arrogant results in more hate, and vice versa. At the end of the day we are all human, and all have our flaws.
There is no such thing as a spirit of the rules... its not illegal, thats all that counts!
Spirit of the rules is your personal self built prison!
Either go with the flow, or be left behind!
Guild hoppers do what they do to win! Same goes for pre-crafters and p2p players etc