Freemium games and economies of scale

Prev1
Phlebotomy_Jones
439 posts Member
edited July 2016
MODs are a designed relief valve.

Taking for granted that it's going to be costly for players, what's the true benefit to EA other than cash?

In "protest" you get stagnate players and even high dollar payers leaving the game.

But look at it this way, those players were holding spots in the top 200, were collecting some rewards, but were at or near "end game" whether they were trying to lift toons over the various pay walls or had already advanced enough to curb their spending; these are players representing a declining income source.

So, create something which either reinvigorates their spending or drives them out. (Its like giving an employee fewer hours, either they leave or put in more effort hoping to advance.). It's a crummy management method, but works.

So when those "advanced" players leave a void, it creates a perceived, and perhaps real, opportunity for others to advance, stimulating payer turnover.

MODS, and the other recent decisions seemingly counter to player requests, are designed for one thing - enticing new players that an investment might now be in their interests.

It's no industry secret that an overwhelmingly large percentage of game income comes from a tiny (1%) number of payers. There's plenty of market research out there, if you have the time and inclination and stomach to read it.

Whales only have value while they are paying, if they've reached a point with nothing to spend on, or can't be enticed to continue with the new gate, they have no more value - that money sponge is dry, best to get them out.

Casual payers that can be encouraged to spend increasing sums of money have value. Those that won't, don't, and fall into the same category as non-payers.

Free players have value only as marks to measure success against for paying players, and is why free will always be second class in freemium games. It might feel like you can get to a level near the payers, but it's designed to feel that way and allow only a very few, very dedicated players to rise that far.

MODS, GW, and even the neglect of player feedback in these forums are purposefully designed to replace payers, plain and simple.

Make no mistake, these are mechanisms, not to increase fun or playability, but to move out players that have no value (as consequence of their reduced spending) to convert replacement payers.

Your decision whether to stay or to quit playing, makes no impact whether you were paying mountains of cash or not, because this is a move to control an economy of scale, not of individuals consumption.

Replies

  • Doga
    808 posts Member
    Options
    Well said
  • Vyse
    111 posts Member
    Options
    +10000000
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    Options
    Yep, I agree with this. Well said.
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • Alexone
    3646 posts Member
    Options
    Still giving the benefit of the doubt and i will do so for 2 weeks after the new update.
  • djvita
    1684 posts Member
    Options
    A freemium game's primary metric is conversion, that is, in how much time can an ftp become p2p or a whale.
    For SWGoH, it starts with the dark side pack and crystal subscription...

    86jFEmv.png
  • Options
    This will eventually kill the industry as we know it.
  • Options
    djvita wrote: »
    A freemium game's primary metric is conversion, that is, in how much time can an ftp become p2p or a whale.
    For SWGoH, it starts with the dark side pack and crystal subscription…

    An interesting infographic, though a little dated and their data on spending is a little conservative.
  • djvita
    1684 posts Member
    Options
    Yep, but the principle remains.
  • Phlebotomy_Jones
    439 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Options
    This will eventually kill the industry as we know it.
    It has already killed most all concepts of mobile "gaming" replaced by IAP and pay walls.

    There are fewer and fewer premium games in mobile, and even some of those charge for DLC.

    The industry now is full of "monetizers," publishers running games others produce much like the relationship between EA and CG.

    Just look at all the celebrity endorsed "games" making money through the same processes.

    It's not really a game industry anymore, just an IP scouring profit squeezing machine.

    Eventually a game producer somewhere will take a stand, but they'll just get washed beneath the next wave of the same designed solely for profit games.

    You might eventually again see some largly successful games focused upon fun, but they will be few and far between.
  • Options
    djvita wrote: »
    Yep, but the principle remains.
    Didn't mean to suggest anything other, sorry if it seemed so.

    That is a pretty fair model of the freemium state of affairs.
  • ShaolinPunk
    3486 posts Moderator
    Options
    Love statistics, but yes these are already 3+ years old, a lot can change in that time. There are more and more people "discovering" this info, although it's been around for a long time. Turns out, I can just blame what I don't like about life on my dopamine dependency issues. Wonder how cortisol fits into "player" psychology and F2P mechanics?
    **Please tag me (@ShaolinPunk) if you need assistance.** My Collection. . My Poll.. Ally Code: 332-622-913 Discord: shaolin_punk#2107
  • Options
    Very well thought out and sadly true. All you can do as a player is play your game as you see fit, don't let outside pressures take you away from your goals, don't be impulsive....
  • Options
    Love statistics, but yes these are already 3+ years old, a lot can change in that time. There are more and more people "discovering" this info, although it's been around for a long time. Turns out, I can just blame what I don't like about life on my dopamine dependency issues. Wonder how cortisol fits into "player" psychology and F2P mechanics?

    Yes, they have changed.

    Attempts to monetize players on a recurring basis are more pronounced.

    Discovery comes at different times for different people, old, yet relevant, info doesn't change the model.

    So you debate the psychology, fine it's a psudeo-science at best. Yet, there are pretty clear reward cycles and patterns in freemium games.

    There's always plenty of things to blame, but the freemium model is the main problem - most people reactung as if it's a more traditional game industry, when in fact it's much less responsive by design.
  • Options
    Very well thought out and sadly true. All you can do as a player is play your game as you see fit, don't let outside pressures take you away from your goals, don't be impulsive....
    But most importantly don't confuse the purpose of a player's game with those of a payer's game.

    You will not finish the game, the princess is always in another castle, there's no final level and you have to pay to use the warp zone.

    It can only be what it is, and either you're willing to participate or not.
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Options
    I wrote up a monster of a post on freemium games and I'm undecided to if I actually want to post it, so maybe I'll just dovetail in on this post. Rather than drop my thousand word essay here, the folks at Extra Credit's have done some great episodes on the free to play model and microtransactions, and honestly they say everything I want to say in a much more accessible manner than I could. Here's a few.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Options
    Don't forget, folks... Everything has a threshold.

    This model works because it's well-adopted and it's nefarious in nature, in that it takes advantage of people who are easily 'taken in' by addictive forms of entertainment.

    The latest big thing is only good until the next big thing. 'Build a better mousetrap' and all that...

    SWGOH is following a similar path as other freemium games, but their execution is far worse and their success is buoyed in large part by the property (Star Wars) that they have at their disposal.

    So long as those that are roped in to paying continue to pay, CG will continue on so far as the revenue meets their targets.

    - - -

    Or... CG/EA could leverage it's property and attempt to shift the status quo by changing the way that it treats it's players and how it manages it's pricing and income structure. They could pioneer a shift in how players play and spend and others could take note and follow that lead.

    Specifically in the genre of games, there have been several games that have pioneered a major shift in philosophy and become the "new" standard.

    * World of Warcraft killed Everquest (Everquest killed Ultima Online) by taking away the concept of "Hell Levels" and the downtime that SoE had grown so famous for. Since WOW's dominance, excessive level grinds and long periods of downtime have gone away.
    * Half-Life killed Quake by introducing a storyline and characters that were interesting. By introducing a legitimate stroy into the "story / single player" mode of games, you instantly got exponentially more value for your game. This spawned an era of shooters that had interesting stories behind them as well as online / multiplayer shooter action.
    * Warcraft / Starcraft change the strategy arena (much like the Command and Conquer series, just far better executed) by eliminating turns and focusing on Real-Time action, revolutionizing the RTS genre.

    I see no reason why CG binds themselves to a 'whale-centric' business model for SWGOH, unless they are incapable / unwilling to try to do otherwise.
  • Options
    @medetec
    Those are great videos. I'd forgotten about them or would have included links as well.

    Please feel free to post your thoughts here too.

    Sadly the only thing likely to affect a freemium title's direction is to stop pretending it's a real game.

    Instead of calls for balance and playability, to express things in terms of purchases outright. Something like, "we'd like to pay you more to get easy GW's, can we get a skip for crystals?"

    But that is a little too honest in face of our pretenses about "gaming" so perhaps we all need to be little more honest: players and developers alike.

    You want my money? I'm happy to give you some. So let's negotiate a deal.
  • Options
    @Powda
    Excellent thoughts and observations!

    It wouldn't take much for a developer to stand out in bucking the trend.

    However, that's financially risky, and in the publisher/devloper relationships is probably precluded by contract.

    Certainly easier for a larger company, but they'd be more interested in guaranteed income as well. Small, hungry devs tied to giant publishers don't seem likely to take the risk.
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    Options
    I disagree that freemium games can't be real, viable games. While the mobile market is a bad place right now, if you wander out of that confine... Look at Hearthstone, League of Legends and Path of Exile. These games are both 100% free to play, and 100% games. Just because you are on mobile doesn't mean you are limited to the current mobile practices. You can be better.
  • Options
    medetec wrote: »
    I disagree that freemium games can't be real, viable games. While the mobile market is a bad place right now, if you wander out of that confine... Look at Hearthstone, League of Legends and Path of Exile. These games are both 100% free to play, and 100% games. Just because you are on mobile doesn't mean you are limited to the current mobile practices. You can be better.
    I agree, perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

    My point being that a freemium title is constrained by the model, and expectations shouldn't be unrealistically expecting it to operate in the same ways.

    Free can be great, prepaid can be great, but freemium has to, but doesn't quite, straddle the divide in most implementations.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Options
    i am genuinely interested how many people are aware of all this, and still spend boatloads on the game.
    I played my first freemium game a few years back, spend a few 50's here and there. After that i was cured, f2p for life, no matter how good the game is. Some people might argue that they "support" the game, or that i'm a leech etc. I really dont care, the development company choose freemium to make more money.
    People tend to blame the company, but it's the customer, who is willing to pay more, that makes this model so gosh darn lucrative.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    Options
    The sad thing is that Galaxy of Heroes could (possibly requiring some EA accountants to duck right off...) be a good game if it can ignore the now standard mobile market practices. There are features players are willing to pay for, and pay for frequently, that both don't provide pay to win power and don't cost silly amounts of money,

    Selling characters is ok but $40-$100 for a (partial) character bundle is a silly amount of money. $14 for a single piece of gear is doubly wrong, as it's selling direct power (bad) and its overpriced (bad). Instead of this mess, there's another way.

    Sell exp boosters that increase experience gains. Sell character skins that provide cosmetic options without any power attached. Sell additional ally slots, guild coin cap increases, things that make life easier but are not required. Sell the loot bomb mentioned in the EC video and let it give everyone in your guild (except you) a small, random amount of credits and random character shards. There are tons of ways to get large numbers of players invested in moderate spending instead of a small number of players spending enormous amounts. 100 players paying an average of a dollar a day is just as good (honestly, better) than one player spending $100 a day.
  • Phlebotomy_Jones
    439 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Options
    medetec wrote: »
    The sad thing is that Galaxy of Heroes could (possibly requiring some EA accountants to duck right off...) be a good game if it can ignore the now standard mobile market practices. There are features players are willing to pay for, and pay for frequently, that both don't provide pay to win power and don't cost silly amounts of money,

    Selling characters is ok but $40-$100 for a (partial) character bundle is a silly amount of money. $14 for a single piece of gear is doubly wrong, as it's selling direct power (bad) and its overpriced (bad). Instead of this mess, there's another way.

    Sell exp boosters that increase experience gains. Sell character skins that provide cosmetic options without any power attached. Sell additional ally slots, guild coin cap increases, things that make life easier but are not required. Sell the loot bomb mentioned in the EC video and let it give everyone in your guild (except you) a small, random amount of credits and random character shards. There are tons of ways to get large numbers of players invested in moderate spending instead of a small number of players spending enormous amounts. 100 players paying an average of a dollar a day is just as good (honestly, better) than one player spending $100 a day.

    It's so true that they have really missed the opportunity provided by the Star Wars franchise.

    There are so many other opportunities for low dollar monetization that would draw much higher buy-in because of the massive appeal of Star Wars.

    Many people like to throw out the "1000 people spending $5 vs 5 people spending $1000" argument, but that overlooks the actual market research and trends. I understand that.

    However, I think it's incredibly unimaginative and simplistic, with regards to the SW franchise, to just make another freemium game.

    If ever there was a chance to get a large percentage of players paying, it was here. It may not be any more, because that kind of sea change would require a lot of ignoring traditional freemium practices by the devs and a lot of player good will has been lost.

    I'd really like to see that though...perhaps those $5 starter packs and low cost crystal subs initially suggested it wouldn't work, but there's no evidence of attempting to gauge (not gouge) the market since.
  • Options
    I've stopped spending completely in the last month and a half. You'll go broke before you know it of you try to keep up.
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    Options
    medetec wrote: »
    The sad thing is that Galaxy of Heroes could (possibly requiring some EA accountants to duck right off...) be a good game if it can ignore the now standard mobile market practices. There are features players are willing to pay for, and pay for frequently, that both don't provide pay to win power and don't cost silly amounts of money,

    Selling characters is ok but $40-$100 for a (partial) character bundle is a silly amount of money. $14 for a single piece of gear is doubly wrong, as it's selling direct power (bad) and its overpriced (bad). Instead of this mess, there's another way.

    Sell exp boosters that increase experience gains. Sell character skins that provide cosmetic options without any power attached. Sell additional ally slots, guild coin cap increases, things that make life easier but are not required. Sell the loot bomb mentioned in the EC video and let it give everyone in your guild (except you) a small, random amount of credits and random character shards. There are tons of ways to get large numbers of players invested in moderate spending instead of a small number of players spending enormous amounts. 100 players paying an average of a dollar a day is just as good (honestly, better) than one player spending $100 a day.

    It's so true that they have really missed the opportunity provided by the Star Wars franchise.

    There are so many other opportunities for low dollar monetization that would draw much higher buy-in because of the massive appeal of Star Wars.

    Many people like to throw out the "1000 people spending $5 vs 5 people spending $1000" argument, but that overlooks the actual market research and trends. I understand that.

    However, I think it's incredibly unimaginative and simplistic, with regards to the SW franchise, to just make another freemium game.

    If ever there was a chance to get a large percentage of players paying, it was here. It may not be any more, because that kind of sea change would require a lot of ignoring traditional freemium practices by the devs and a lot of player good will has been lost.

    I'd really like to see that though...perhaps those $5 starter packs and low cost crystal subs initially suggested it wouldn't work, but there's no evidence of attempting to gauge (not gouge) the market since.

    While I realize the big whale spenders are often easier marks for more reliable spending, GoH as you mentioned has basically the holy grail of franchise licenses. They have a real shot at a much broader market for low cost conversions. And I'm not saying exclude the whales either, if someone wants to spend thousands by all means let them. I think the chromium slots and aurodiums could be reduced in price by 20-50% (or even no change) and still provide a huge outlet for whale mentality players, in addition to skins and other cosmetic and non-cosmetic spending options.

    I'd be shocked if they introduced a new $5 pack and it didn't sell well. The initial starter pack likely has skewed numbers as it appears so early in the gameplay cycle, before players are decided as to if they want to spend at all, and then disappears forever. I know I've seen a lot of players posting that the regret not having bought the DS pack, but it was gone by the time they chose to drop some money on it.
  • Options
    medetec wrote: »
    The sad thing is that Galaxy of Heroes could (possibly requiring some EA accountants to duck right off...) be a good game if it can ignore the now standard mobile market practices. There are features players are willing to pay for, and pay for frequently, that both don't provide pay to win power and don't cost silly amounts of money,

    Selling characters is ok but $40-$100 for a (partial) character bundle is a silly amount of money. $14 for a single piece of gear is doubly wrong, as it's selling direct power (bad) and its overpriced (bad). Instead of this mess, there's another way.

    Sell exp boosters that increase experience gains. Sell character skins that provide cosmetic options without any power attached. Sell additional ally slots, guild coin cap increases, things that make life easier but are not required. Sell the loot bomb mentioned in the EC video and let it give everyone in your guild (except you) a small, random amount of credits and random character shards. There are tons of ways to get large numbers of players invested in moderate spending instead of a small number of players spending enormous amounts. 100 players paying an average of a dollar a day is just as good (honestly, better) than one player spending $100 a day.

    Well said, great post!

  • StormTro0p3R_H
    1643 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Options

    You want my money? I'm happy to give you some. So let's negotiate a deal.

    Everything you said is spot on from my perspective.

    These things aren't games, they are time wasters. People spend money to waste time and simultaneously be entertained quite frequently. I mean, I LOVE movies. I'll always be willing to invest in a movie, whether tickets, or the DVD, or rental, or subscription to Netflix. I don't mind buying back some of the time I wasted by buying pre-made food at a restaurant rather than taking the time to cook myself. So "dinner and a movie" are frequently purchased together.

    I may have side tracked too much there, but to the point of this "game" having an end: it's end is where you make it. Honestly, I want one squad top notch. That's the end for me. I was getting close with gear, and now I'll be playing for the mods. If they had introduced ships instead, I would have absolutely been more reluctant to grind from scratch. It just feels different, even though the grind itself isn't.

    I quoted this particular portion of the previous post due to letting people in on how I "negotiate." It's not through complaints, which are valid but I see rarely heard - the ones you think were heard were discovered through their user data, not your posts...except bugs: I'm certain they need us for that, lol - but through gratuity. I've posted about how I spend before, but it appears most relevant here, attached to this quote. Our "voice" is our user data. If they see increased spending when they do something we enjoy, it is likely to happen more often. Sure, a lot of the stuff they do is from some contrived gimmicks they have to increase sales, and those things are going to happen one way or another, but leaving a paper trail that leads back to the things you enjoy is how to let them know what matters.

    If you don't like the idea of mods, then do not purchase cantina refills to farm them, do not purchase packs that include them. Your user data will be your voice. If you buy them "just because" then your voice is actually one that says "I approve" from the user data perspective. I've got QGJ to finish, if I can get currency to get him and farm mods, then I'll do it at the rate I've already invested in to get QGJ, not a new rate to get mods faster. I'm not offering any gratuity for this change, like I have for the changes I liked (chromium characters being available) so from me, my user data will show that this new feature "didn't work," and if you feel like you don't like it, then act accordingly.

    It is backward to think you can spend money "just because," giving them an "I approve" user data node, then come on here and say how much you don't like your investment in this "game." Let your actions do the talking, because that is all they will hear anyway. And this isn't just about mods, but about any new feature they add in the future.

  • senkoujin
    187 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Options
    All of these posts are excellent and very informative regarding this business model. As a more old-school traditional gamer, I don't find myself attracted to playing most of these FREEMIUM games, not just because of the crazy IAPs, but it's the fact that most of these games are generally lacking that of which most full-fledged PREMIUM games have---a good story, immersive deep intuitive gameplay and progression, etc. FREEMIUM games are made for the money, and are thus built on that "empty" foundation resulting in a game lacking in depth and actual gameplay...just a series of "tap missions" to basically kill time.

    Back to this shady business model, CG is apparently using as little resources as possible with SWGOH (we're talking skin-off-the-bone conservativism) to get it up and running (albeit riddled with issues/bugs) while at the same time, charging players high dollar for mediocre chances to get mediocre items in a highly competitive game....had this game not have the Star Wars name, this game wouldn't be nearly as successful.

    I'm a F2P (Free-To-Play) player, and have spent approximately $0.00 on this game. I earned everything I owned in-game through patience and perseverance. If CG gave me a good offer (I mean a REAL good offer) like a spend 500 crystals to get 10 shards of a non-Aurodium Pack exclusive toon of your choice permanent unlimited use Data-Pack, then I'd truly be on the fence, as this is not merely a gamble, it's assured satisfaction of services rendered. I think more F2P players could be converted when you try to be reasonable.


    EDIT: I also want to add that PC -> mobile ports are on the rise, and this does contribute to the survival of PREMIUM games. People are buying these games.
  • Options
    This is all well nice to focus new features with players conversion and payers turnover in mind to perpetuate incomes. But when you ambrass a design where players who spent a fortune to completion are welcome to quit because they have already been squeezed dry, you also have to make sure you implemented all the incentive features for new players to jump in with a reliable chance that a fraction of them will turn up to be the next whales.
    In my mind this will be SWGoH undoing, because with each new update CG forget to make the existing content completion faster. As a result the game will reward the tenacious F2P who will be gathering slowly but surely MODs while the fat newcomer whale who unlocked all 7* chromium characters at great expense will still be stuck behind the leveling wall to 70, the leveling wall to 80, the need to run Raids that existing players have cleared many times to pass the gear 10 wall. There are too many newcomers deterrents in SWGoH in it's current state.
  • hhooo
    656 posts Member
    Options
    medetec wrote: »
    The sad thing is that Galaxy of Heroes could (possibly requiring some EA accountants to duck right off...) be a good game if it can ignore the now standard mobile market practices. There are features players are willing to pay for, and pay for frequently, that both don't provide pay to win power and don't cost silly amounts of money,

    Selling characters is ok but $40-$100 for a (partial) character bundle is a silly amount of money. $14 for a single piece of gear is doubly wrong, as it's selling direct power (bad) and its overpriced (bad). Instead of this mess, there's another way.

    Sell exp boosters that increase experience gains. Sell character skins that provide cosmetic options without any power attached. Sell additional ally slots, guild coin cap increases, things that make life easier but are not required. Sell the loot bomb mentioned in the EC video and let it give everyone in your guild (except you) a small, random amount of credits and random character shards. There are tons of ways to get large numbers of players invested in moderate spending instead of a small number of players spending enormous amounts. 100 players paying an average of a dollar a day is just as good (honestly, better) than one player spending $100 a day.

    It's so true that they have really missed the opportunity provided by the Star Wars franchise.

    There are so many other opportunities for low dollar monetization that would draw much higher buy-in because of the massive appeal of Star Wars.

    Many people like to throw out the "1000 people spending $5 vs 5 people spending $1000" argument, but that overlooks the actual market research and trends. I understand that.

    However, I think it's incredibly unimaginative and simplistic, with regards to the SW franchise, to just make another freemium game.

    If ever there was a chance to get a large percentage of players paying, it was here. It may not be any more, because that kind of sea change would require a lot of ignoring traditional freemium practices by the devs and a lot of player good will has been lost.

    I'd really like to see that though...perhaps those $5 starter packs and low cost crystal subs initially suggested it wouldn't work, but there's no evidence of attempting to gauge (not gouge) the market since.

    This is the best post I've seen on this game. There was so much that could have been if the MO from day one wasn't frustrate us into oblivion.
Sign In or Register to comment.