I think Mace Windu STILL needs a rework (+suggestion)
Warning: hella long post ahead.
I know many of you might disagree with me as he has recently been buffed, but I think mace still does not have the kit he deserves. Mace Windu was at the time the second greatest Jedi to ever live, only behind master Yoda. He's one of the greatest duelists of all time, rivaling the likes of Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious. He even created his own lightsaber form, Vaapad, a variant of Juyo. He is the only one to have mastered this form without falling to the dark side. Not only is he an all time great, he is one of the most iconic characters in Star Wars, played by mother******* Samuel Jackson. Basically every iconic character right now (except boba and maul) have solid movesets that separates them from others. I feel he needs a kit that is deserving of his iconic role and stays true with his character and lore.
Mace Windu
Aggressive attacker that wears down enemies through swift critical attacks and Shatterpoint.
Invincible Assault (Basic)- Deal Physical damage to target enemy, with a 55% chance to gain speed up for 2 turns. +15% chance (lvl8)
This attack centers around Mace Windu's signature lightsaber form Vaapad which draws its power and ferocity from the emotions of both the user and the opponent, hence the speed up. This reliable speed boost along with tm gain allows Mace to get off a lot of attacks, dealing solid dps.
Tempered Aggression (cooldown 3)- deal special damage to target enemy 4 times, with a 55% chance to deal damage a fifth time. Each attack has a +25% chance of dealing a critical hit. If Mace has Shatterpoint, gain offense up for 3 turns. Each hit after the first deals less damage.
Tempered aggression is the term used when fully embracing vaapad, using both your own and the opponent's emotions and enjoying the thrill of the battle, dancing with the dark side. This attack isn't exactly a direct source of damage as it wouldn't do an absurd amount but instead used to rev up dps by getting an increased chance to gain Shatterpoint early in each encounter. each hit after the first only deal about 25% damage, and the total damage should deal considerably less than say Rey's flurry of blows.
I'm thinking it should look something like this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Swirling_VZZZ.jpg
Smite (cooldown 7)- deal physical damage to target enemy, with 25% more damage for every ally defeated on your team. This attack has a 100% critical chance.
Smite is like the be all end all attack, a last resort, which is why it has the longest cooldown. This is Windu's trump card, and you only really use it when you're really in trouble. If used in the right situation, it can change the tide of the battle. This should ideally be used when Windu is the last one alive, as it can deal IMMENSE damage to a single target, potentially one shotting them, dealing similar or even more damage than a culling blade with multiple debuffs in the right situation. This really spices things up when facing a team of sith and handling 2v1s or even 4v1s.
Jedi Commander (Leader)- Jedi allies gain 10% offense for every enemy defeated, and 10% defense for every ally defeated.
This leader ability shows Mace Windu who frequently leads the charge in battles, whether it is flipping off dooku or arresting a Sith Lord.
Vaapad (Unique)- Mace Windu has 15% critical chance 30% critical damage. Mace also gains 15% turn meter whenever he gets hit with a critical attack. Gain 20% turn meter whenever he gets hit by a sith (level 8)
Vaapad, the ferocity form, is the seventh form of lightsaber combat and is described as the most erratic and unpredictable of the forms. Mace Windu is the only practitioner of this form to not fall into the dark side. This form started as a variant of Juyo, a fierce and aggressive form of combat, which Darth maul is notable for mastering. Vaapad is able to "eviscerate a lone enemy". This is why I added crit synergies and tm gain to Windu's arsenal, as well as single target attacks, which I feel fits with the lore perfectly.
Shatterpoint (Unique)- Whenever Mace deals a critical attack, he has a 50% chance of gaining Shatterpoint for 3 turns. In addition, Mace Windu gains 25% turn meter whenever he deals a critical hit. If Mace Windu is the last one living on his team, he passively gains Shatterpoint for the rest of the encounter.
Mace Windu's attacks can't be evaded or countered and is immune to debuffs as long as Shatterpoint is active. I've changed the way Shatterpoint kind of works here. Instead of expose, Shatterpoint is a buff unique to Mace. There's still that rng aspect of having to land a critical hit just for a chance to gain Shatterpoint. That way it still stays true to the lore. There's another bonus to Shatterpoint however. If he lands a critical hit, he gains 25-35% turn meter. Before you think this is op, you can still dispel it just like any other buff. However, if he is the last one standing, he gains this effect passively, meaning you can't dispel it. I added this since in Revenge of the Sith, he faces off against Darth Sidious. In that battle, he fully utilizes vaapad, channeling and reflecting Sid's limitless power of the dark side and fights like he never fought before, fighting him as a complete equal.
Gameplay: Mace Windu's main source of damage comes from his basics, and his specials complement his play style perfectly. Use TA early, get Shatterpoint, and wreck havoc through frequent heavy hitting basics. He is a solid attacker in any situation, but where he thrives is as the last man. He gets undispellable Shatterpoint, boost in damage through offense up with TA, and a heavy hitting smite in case you face multiple attackers. Sith only fuel his power, gaining tm whenever he gets hit by them. If mace is lead, he gets to tank even more attacks through more defense, as well as get stronger as he mows through enemies. Mace becomes even more deadly if paired with JKA as lead, allowing him to deal ridiculous amounts of damage through even more lethal attacks. So instead of getting hit 4 times per attack, you only get hit once or twice before you get to attack again, which I feel perfectly represents vaapad and Mace Windu's style of fighting.
Counters: One of the most effective ways to deal with Mace is by killing him off early and outspeeding him. In RoTS, Palpatine could have killed all the Jedi, including Mace, right in the very beginning. Dooku, for example, could stun Windu first due to higher base speed. If he doesn't, dooku will just feed Windu tm and only make him more deadly. If he is unable to be outsped, a tank with high defense could simply absorb his attacks while a dispeller could also hinder his potential. Mace Windu should be a top priority and should be killed first, as Windu has abilities that could allow him to easily take the battle if left for last.
I know it's a lot to ask from CG, but I believe that this kit best represents his character, and also adds a layer of depth and brings something new and entertaining to the table. Even if it's not even considered, I hope it at least inspires one of the devs for a possible rework idea for Maul or another similar character.
I know many of you might disagree with me as he has recently been buffed, but I think mace still does not have the kit he deserves. Mace Windu was at the time the second greatest Jedi to ever live, only behind master Yoda. He's one of the greatest duelists of all time, rivaling the likes of Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious. He even created his own lightsaber form, Vaapad, a variant of Juyo. He is the only one to have mastered this form without falling to the dark side. Not only is he an all time great, he is one of the most iconic characters in Star Wars, played by mother******* Samuel Jackson. Basically every iconic character right now (except boba and maul) have solid movesets that separates them from others. I feel he needs a kit that is deserving of his iconic role and stays true with his character and lore.
Mace Windu
Aggressive attacker that wears down enemies through swift critical attacks and Shatterpoint.
Invincible Assault (Basic)- Deal Physical damage to target enemy, with a 55% chance to gain speed up for 2 turns. +15% chance (lvl8)
This attack centers around Mace Windu's signature lightsaber form Vaapad which draws its power and ferocity from the emotions of both the user and the opponent, hence the speed up. This reliable speed boost along with tm gain allows Mace to get off a lot of attacks, dealing solid dps.
Tempered Aggression (cooldown 3)- deal special damage to target enemy 4 times, with a 55% chance to deal damage a fifth time. Each attack has a +25% chance of dealing a critical hit. If Mace has Shatterpoint, gain offense up for 3 turns. Each hit after the first deals less damage.
Tempered aggression is the term used when fully embracing vaapad, using both your own and the opponent's emotions and enjoying the thrill of the battle, dancing with the dark side. This attack isn't exactly a direct source of damage as it wouldn't do an absurd amount but instead used to rev up dps by getting an increased chance to gain Shatterpoint early in each encounter. each hit after the first only deal about 25% damage, and the total damage should deal considerably less than say Rey's flurry of blows.
I'm thinking it should look something like this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Swirling_VZZZ.jpg
Smite (cooldown 7)- deal physical damage to target enemy, with 25% more damage for every ally defeated on your team. This attack has a 100% critical chance.
Smite is like the be all end all attack, a last resort, which is why it has the longest cooldown. This is Windu's trump card, and you only really use it when you're really in trouble. If used in the right situation, it can change the tide of the battle. This should ideally be used when Windu is the last one alive, as it can deal IMMENSE damage to a single target, potentially one shotting them, dealing similar or even more damage than a culling blade with multiple debuffs in the right situation. This really spices things up when facing a team of sith and handling 2v1s or even 4v1s.
Jedi Commander (Leader)- Jedi allies gain 10% offense for every enemy defeated, and 10% defense for every ally defeated.
This leader ability shows Mace Windu who frequently leads the charge in battles, whether it is flipping off dooku or arresting a Sith Lord.
Vaapad (Unique)- Mace Windu has 15% critical chance 30% critical damage. Mace also gains 15% turn meter whenever he gets hit with a critical attack. Gain 20% turn meter whenever he gets hit by a sith (level 8)
Vaapad, the ferocity form, is the seventh form of lightsaber combat and is described as the most erratic and unpredictable of the forms. Mace Windu is the only practitioner of this form to not fall into the dark side. This form started as a variant of Juyo, a fierce and aggressive form of combat, which Darth maul is notable for mastering. Vaapad is able to "eviscerate a lone enemy". This is why I added crit synergies and tm gain to Windu's arsenal, as well as single target attacks, which I feel fits with the lore perfectly.
Shatterpoint (Unique)- Whenever Mace deals a critical attack, he has a 50% chance of gaining Shatterpoint for 3 turns. In addition, Mace Windu gains 25% turn meter whenever he deals a critical hit. If Mace Windu is the last one living on his team, he passively gains Shatterpoint for the rest of the encounter.
Mace Windu's attacks can't be evaded or countered and is immune to debuffs as long as Shatterpoint is active. I've changed the way Shatterpoint kind of works here. Instead of expose, Shatterpoint is a buff unique to Mace. There's still that rng aspect of having to land a critical hit just for a chance to gain Shatterpoint. That way it still stays true to the lore. There's another bonus to Shatterpoint however. If he lands a critical hit, he gains 25-35% turn meter. Before you think this is op, you can still dispel it just like any other buff. However, if he is the last one standing, he gains this effect passively, meaning you can't dispel it. I added this since in Revenge of the Sith, he faces off against Darth Sidious. In that battle, he fully utilizes vaapad, channeling and reflecting Sid's limitless power of the dark side and fights like he never fought before, fighting him as a complete equal.
Gameplay: Mace Windu's main source of damage comes from his basics, and his specials complement his play style perfectly. Use TA early, get Shatterpoint, and wreck havoc through frequent heavy hitting basics. He is a solid attacker in any situation, but where he thrives is as the last man. He gets undispellable Shatterpoint, boost in damage through offense up with TA, and a heavy hitting smite in case you face multiple attackers. Sith only fuel his power, gaining tm whenever he gets hit by them. If mace is lead, he gets to tank even more attacks through more defense, as well as get stronger as he mows through enemies. Mace becomes even more deadly if paired with JKA as lead, allowing him to deal ridiculous amounts of damage through even more lethal attacks. So instead of getting hit 4 times per attack, you only get hit once or twice before you get to attack again, which I feel perfectly represents vaapad and Mace Windu's style of fighting.
Counters: One of the most effective ways to deal with Mace is by killing him off early and outspeeding him. In RoTS, Palpatine could have killed all the Jedi, including Mace, right in the very beginning. Dooku, for example, could stun Windu first due to higher base speed. If he doesn't, dooku will just feed Windu tm and only make him more deadly. If he is unable to be outsped, a tank with high defense could simply absorb his attacks while a dispeller could also hinder his potential. Mace Windu should be a top priority and should be killed first, as Windu has abilities that could allow him to easily take the battle if left for last.
I know it's a lot to ask from CG, but I believe that this kit best represents his character, and also adds a layer of depth and brings something new and entertaining to the table. Even if it's not even considered, I hope it at least inspires one of the devs for a possible rework idea for Maul or another similar character.
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Replies
But i need to tell ya , place this thread over in the feedback area if you want it to get any attention. The general area is just for players to spew toxic anger on the forums then play some more.
+100 for creating this thread though.
He does. Shatterpoint makes you immune to debuffs like stun and his attacks can't be evaded or countered.
Thanks! I just thought I would post it here first since general seems to be the most popular area.
Lol that's where it went. I was wondering where it was hidden.
Counter chance is a good idea for Windu but I feel that he already has other jedis' moves. Qui gon dispell, aayla/gun Di counter, etc. I think he needs something special. He deserves it.
Don't worry about popularity, you have a good idea and you should post it in the area where Devs will see it.
Maybe I'm missing something in your post, in total, what exactly does Shatterpoint do? As of right now, I love the idea, but I'm just a little unclear on Shatterpoint.
Tenacity down. boom.
Basically Shatterpoint is a buff unique to Mace (like shock for EP, but that can change in the future). When you gain Shatterpoint, you become immune to debuffs, your attacks can't be evaded or countered, and you gain 25% tm on critical hit (% subject to change).
Every time you land a critical hit, you get a chance to gain Shatterpoint for 3 turns. However you can still dispell Shatterpoint, just like any other buff. If you become the last one alive however, you gain Shatterpoint as a passive effect, meaning it can't be dispelled.
So in line with that he could have a damage bonus vs sith. Combine that with @EscapeArtist51 idea and give maybe a smaller counter chance overall (30%) and then a 60% counter chance coupled with a +30% damage bonus against sith only.
Giving toons class specific bonuses like Palpatine has against Jedi/Rebels is a good way to increase diversity without making a toon generally too powerful.
Thanks for clarifying that for me. So, yea, I hope this happens, then. This would make Mace pretty awesome, and absolutely terrifying when paired with Anakin.
Yeah the 2 things I mainly focused on in my rework was his Vaapad, the lightsaber form you mentioned, and anti sith bonuses. My post went pretty in depth with how each ability represented these things and how they coincided with the lore. One example is how he gains tm whenever he gets damaged by a sith, or his unique which gives him crit bonuses and tm gain whenever he deals a crit.
I originally had it where his basic deals double damage against sith, but thought that might be a bit op, so I added a chance to gain speed up instead, as this also goes well with the lore of vapaad. So I didn't exactly add counter chance, but tm gain instead, which I feel represents his character pretty well.
Thanks! Glad I'm not the only one who thought this.
He is also my favorite character of all the Star Wars lore, I have tried time and time again to make him work for me in the arena environment, he had a short period during the beginning of double taunts where it worked out but that's pretty much it.
With 2 reworks in he is better, just not enough though. I love your ideas op ! Would be awesome to see them implemented. And also really like the counter idea. Though I would be just fine with his kit as it is if he had double the hp and a 3 turn taunt.
- anti-Sith abilities (stun chance/increased damage/increased evasion etc.)
- at least 1 massive damage ability/higher damage in general (he should really switch roles with QGJ - who should be a tank - as he essentially never died and taught everyone else how not to as well)
- for the love of Star Wars, a correct application of the term "Vaapad" (i.e. not on his leader ability)
- animations befitting a marquee character
The list goes on...
If they're going to give any Jedi another rework, it had better be Plo Koon. He's the only real Jedi not to have a rework yet and he's bad so he would be a welcome buffed toon.
Mace had his chance...three times...
4th times the charm then. Maybe give the two synergy I mean they were in the same TV series, that's good enough reason right?
If it buffs Plo Koon then sure I'm all for it!
The one thing about Mace is that he is one of the few characters able to dispel buffs; however, unlike other characters who dispel buffs on their specials, provides nothing else. Let's compare:
Qui Gon: Single target buff dispel. Provides offense up to whole team when buff is dispelled
Teebo: Single target buff dispel. Is unavoidable and reduces TM when a buff is dispelled
Assaj: AOE buff dispel. Provides solid self heal when buffs are dispelled
B2: AOE buff dispel. Drops buff immunity as well
Mace: Single target buff dispel. Yeah...
They could make him more viable simply by tweaking his special to do something else besides dispel. I'm thinking it could expose the target upon dispel with a 50% chance to expose another target for each additional buff that's dispelled.
Mace should really have:
- Buffs against Sith
- Chance to deal massive damage (E.g. deathmark)
- Speed or turn meter bonuses when he gets attacked
- Immunity to certain debuffs (stun preferably)
I agree with the OP that some of his abilities should be limited to Sith or dark side characters so that he's not generally powerful but has a specific role. And I agree that he should have unique animations. He's the most disappointing character relatively to his lore I think.
When I face Mace in GW or Arena I want to feel like he's going to cause me major problems. As it stands I usually target him last because he's just not a threat.
Thanks, Windu was my first character I farmed as well, before quickly realizing he wasn't going to be so good. I even named my account off of him. Seeing them actually put this kit in would restore all my faith in them, I would literally support everything they do.