They have counters!

Replies

  • I know what B2 does since I use him. I also know what a liability he is regarding everything else beside dispeling. And that while the toons that he is countering have enough abilities for a couple more toons.

    have you heard of Boba, Sun Fac, Nihilus, or Jyn/Cassian?

    The names do sound familiar. What about them?
  • Gavstar
    214 posts Member
    Waez wrote: »
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    I'm sorry but this, and the rest of your c/p was a long lot of nonsense. Chase can be countered a lot of ways. You don't even need zMaul Sith team.

    No doubt Chaze are very good toons. The best pair even. Was obvious since tournament days. Was countering Chaze before Sith pass, before GK, over months since whale players had them awhile ago.

    Just be creative.
  • GA_Phoenix wrote: »
    Waez wrote: »
    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    I'dont think so!

    An good moddet zKrooper Duo has good cards to deal with Chase in an 2 vs 2 Match because of the bad KI the anti-rebel-synergies and Krennics Leadskill. :wink:

    After Chirut first Turm, DT debuffs and inflicts Healing immunity, then DK uses his AOE calling DT to assist inflicting Daze and Stun on Chirrut. Next Baze maybe is doing minor Damage before Chirrut loses his stun. He is then abbillity blocked or stunned (or both) again by DT. Krennic will inflict buffblock on Baze and from this point on it's game Over for the Rebels

    The main problem ... its all theory, there are no 2 vs 2 Matches and RNG sucks. ^^

    Other problems :Krennic leadership is broken, also the RNG must be perfect for that strategy to work.
  • I know what B2 does since I use him. I also know what a liability he is regarding everything else beside dispeling. And that while the toons that he is countering have enough abilities for a couple more toons.

    have you heard of Boba, Sun Fac, Nihilus, or Jyn/Cassian?

    The names do sound familiar. What about them?

    Boba executes Chaze for breakfast, so much that Boba is a priority for me.
    Sun Fac/Nihilus dispels on basic, and Nihilus also increases CD
    Nihilus instakills, making baze a liability of sort (so much health means Nihilus will eat that much health)
    cassian under Jyn lead Exposes so much that you can kill BAZE in 1 shot after piling up exposes.
    There you go, counters. Since I run Chaze and fight Chaze, I know of the things I have to look out for.
  • Waez
    286 posts Member
    Gavstar wrote: »
    Waez wrote: »
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    I'm sorry but this, and the rest of your c/p was a long lot of nonsense. Chase can be countered a lot of ways. You don't even need zMaul Sith team.

    No doubt Chaze are very good toons. The best pair even. Was obvious since tournament days. Was countering Chaze before Sith pass, before GK, over months since whale players had them awhile ago.

    Just be creative.

    That's where you show your lack of arguments.

    "Hmmm Yeah they can be countered you're wrong"

    What are the counters then? And if there are so many counters, why does the Rex - Chaze - GK - DN squad represent 55% of ALL top 10 squads?

    Numbers show that Chaze are OP.
    Logic shows that Chaze are OP.
    Basic knowledge of Game Design shows that Chaze are OP.

    The only reason you're saying it's not, is because you use them.
  • I know what B2 does since I use him. I also know what a liability he is regarding everything else beside dispeling. And that while the toons that he is countering have enough abilities for a couple more toons.

    have you heard of Boba, Sun Fac, Nihilus, or Jyn/Cassian?

    The names do sound familiar. What about them?

    Boba executes Chaze for breakfast, so much that Boba is a priority for me.
    Sun Fac/Nihilus dispels on basic, and Nihilus also increases CD
    Nihilus instakills, making baze a liability of sort (so much health means Nihilus will eat that much health)
    cassian under Jyn lead Exposes so much that you can kill BAZE in 1 shot after piling up exposes.
    There you go, counters. Since I run Chaze and fight Chaze, I know of the things I have to look out for.

    So what are you saying is that they have counters? :wink:
  • I know what B2 does since I use him. I also know what a liability he is regarding everything else beside dispeling. And that while the toons that he is countering have enough abilities for a couple more toons.

    have you heard of Boba, Sun Fac, Nihilus, or Jyn/Cassian?

    The names do sound familiar. What about them?

    Boba executes Chaze for breakfast, so much that Boba is a priority for me.
    Sun Fac/Nihilus dispels on basic, and Nihilus also increases CD
    Nihilus instakills, making baze a liability of sort (so much health means Nihilus will eat that much health)
    cassian under Jyn lead Exposes so much that you can kill BAZE in 1 shot after piling up exposes.
    There you go, counters. Since I run Chaze and fight Chaze, I know of the things I have to look out for.

    So what are you saying is that they have counters? :wink:

    I'm saying that Chaze is powerful and borderline OP, but they ARE balanced.
  • Gavstar
    214 posts Member
    Waez wrote: »
    Gavstar wrote: »
    Waez wrote: »
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    I'm sorry but this, and the rest of your c/p was a long lot of nonsense. Chase can be countered a lot of ways. You don't even need zMaul Sith team.

    No doubt Chaze are very good toons. The best pair even. Was obvious since tournament days. Was countering Chaze before Sith pass, before GK, over months since whale players had them awhile ago.

    Just be creative.

    That's where you show your lack of arguments.

    "Hmmm Yeah they can be countered you're wrong"

    What are the counters then? And if there are so many counters, why does the Rex - Chaze - GK - DN squad represent 55% of ALL top 10 squads?

    Numbers show that Chaze are OP.
    Logic shows that Chaze are OP.
    Basic knowledge of Game Design shows that Chaze are OP.

    The only reason you're saying it's not, is because you use them.

    I don't use chaze, nor do I use ZMaul. What's your excuse for not beating chaze teams?

    https://swgoh.gg/u/gavstar/
  • Waez
    286 posts Member
    Gavstar wrote: »
    Waez wrote: »
    Gavstar wrote: »
    Waez wrote: »
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    I'm sorry but this, and the rest of your c/p was a long lot of nonsense. Chase can be countered a lot of ways. You don't even need zMaul Sith team.

    No doubt Chaze are very good toons. The best pair even. Was obvious since tournament days. Was countering Chaze before Sith pass, before GK, over months since whale players had them awhile ago.

    Just be creative.

    That's where you show your lack of arguments.

    "Hmmm Yeah they can be countered you're wrong"

    What are the counters then? And if there are so many counters, why does the Rex - Chaze - GK - DN squad represent 55% of ALL top 10 squads?

    Numbers show that Chaze are OP.
    Logic shows that Chaze are OP.
    Basic knowledge of Game Design shows that Chaze are OP.

    The only reason you're saying it's not, is because you use them.

    I don't use chaze, nor do I use ZMaul. What's your excuse for not beating chaze teams?

    https://swgoh.gg/u/gavstar/

    Back to my first point (you know, the one you dismissed for no reason and without any argument.)

    Can be beaten =/= Balanced.

    Chaze hurts the balance of the game by forcing a lot of teams out of the meta.

    I'm glad you have a non-competitive shard where you can take #1 with Zader. Unfortunately, your entire team can be dismissed by a Rex led-team. It doesn't seem to exist where you are, but it does.

    Stop making your personal situation into a general statement.
  • Gavstar
    214 posts Member
    My shard is December 2015, it's competitive. But yeah you go ahead and make up stuff. whatever makes you comfortable.

    Been beating Rex + Chaze team since tournament everyday. Without Zader even. Yeah I drop to top50 time to time. Every team can be beaten.

    My personal persepctive is whats real. Ive dealt with it. You haven't. Try harder. At the moment your just quoting a sad statistic.

    You haven't seen OP yet. Zmaul + SA can wipe out your team within a minute without your input. Chaze doesn't do that on their own.
  • Crazylazyguy
    1758 posts Member
    I still can't understand where you are going. Can you elaborate what do you want to be done about this?
    Toons are good against some toons and bad against others. If they were good against everyone then what would be the point of the game?
  • Exactly. If every toon is good then what's the point of this game/
    please, close this troll thread.
  • I still can't understand where you are going. Can you elaborate what do you want to be done about this?
    Toons are good against some toons and bad against others. If they were good against everyone then what would be the point of the game?

    What exactly in my post made you think that I want Chaze, or Wiggs, or Zaul or any other toon or pair to be good against anyone. I want exactly the opposite. I want every toon to have other alternatives from different factions just as good that bring as much to their team. Having to weaken your team by bringing in weaker toons just to counter one or 2 toons, or even worse, having to chose your entire line up of 5 toons just to counter 2 means that those toons are way OP, in my opinion of course.
  • I still can't understand where you are going. Can you elaborate what do you want to be done about this?
    Toons are good against some toons and bad against others. If they were good against everyone then what would be the point of the game?

    What exactly in my post made you think that I want Chaze, or Wiggs, or Zaul or any other toon or pair to be good against anyone. I want exactly the opposite. I want every toon to have other alternatives from different factions just as good that bring as much to their team. Having to weaken your team by bringing in weaker toons just to counter one or 2 toons, or even worse, having to chose your entire line up of 5 toons just to counter 2 means that those toons are way OP, in my opinion of course.

    Yeah but you don't have to weaken your team just for 2 characters. A full Sith DN-lead team beats Chaze and 3x cleanse teams with DN at a >90% rate. Don't need B2. DN, Sith Trooper, SA, Dooku, and zSavage carve that team up really nice - been using it for over a month. The squad sticks in the top 20 overnight on a Nov '15 competitive shard. I'm originally a zDM like yourself, but haven't used him much in quite some time as my leaderboard went Rex / Cleanse pretty quick.

    Now, R2 +Chaze though in some setups I can't use DN as effectively and I'm having to retool yet again. I understand the frustration because it feels like every iteration of the game just pivots around Chaze and as a player, they are who you generally have to play "around." Do I think that's ideal for a game, going on 6 months, to pivot around 2 characters? No! Should the answer to every question about how to improve most any team (Dark side even) be .."add Chaze"...No! I agree they are a too strong generally and do too much for just 2 characters. The thing I hate the most now though is why does Baze have 2 dispels? He's a tank that perma-taunts, yet he also eliminates your taunts to a great degree. Given that taunting has always been a huge skill for arena, the fact that he's a master at controlling taunts on offense and defense is a lot in one package.

    They do not however meet my threshold of OP and deserving a nerf. They are the best - something has to be the best. They are beatable by multiple comps and not just gimmick teams that are garbage otherwise as is being suggested here. Do they shrink the usable roster? Sure a bit - but I think Wiggs and zDM shrank the roster more in the past.

    @danflorian1984 I took a look at your roster and it's still developing. As you get more options things will open up. One huge character to have that helps vs. Chaze / R2 is General Kenobi. He's also a plug and play character that boosts most any team he's in. If you don't have Chaze / GK, you'll have to adjust in a harder fashion to new meta shifts than other players that do have them.
  • Zooey
    1607 posts Member
    Waez wrote: »
    Gavstar wrote: »
    Waez wrote: »
    Gavstar wrote: »
    Waez wrote: »
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    I'm sorry but this, and the rest of your c/p was a long lot of nonsense. Chase can be countered a lot of ways. You don't even need zMaul Sith team.

    No doubt Chaze are very good toons. The best pair even. Was obvious since tournament days. Was countering Chaze before Sith pass, before GK, over months since whale players had them awhile ago.

    Just be creative.

    That's where you show your lack of arguments.

    "Hmmm Yeah they can be countered you're wrong"

    What are the counters then? And if there are so many counters, why does the Rex - Chaze - GK - DN squad represent 55% of ALL top 10 squads?

    Numbers show that Chaze are OP.
    Logic shows that Chaze are OP.
    Basic knowledge of Game Design shows that Chaze are OP.

    The only reason you're saying it's not, is because you use them.

    I don't use chaze, nor do I use ZMaul. What's your excuse for not beating chaze teams?

    https://swgoh.gg/u/gavstar/

    Back to my first point (you know, the one you dismissed for no reason and without any argument.)

    Can be beaten =/= Balanced.

    Chaze hurts the balance of the game by forcing a lot of teams out of the meta.

    I'm glad you have a non-competitive shard where you can take #1 with Zader. Unfortunately, your entire team can be dismissed by a Rex led-team. It doesn't seem to exist where you are, but it does.

    Stop making your personal situation into a general statement.

    +1 so I don't have to type the same thing. The meta is defined by what can hold on defense, which is a small and stale subset of teams.
  • Morpheus
    279 posts Member
    Some toons are always going to be better than others, typically these cost money or are hard to obtain.
    Chaze is an example, but they can be beaten, granted, not easy, but can still be done.
    Not sure why this is a problem?
    If every squad is equal, why bother farming more characters?
    The game rewards those with a deeper and broader roster, either obtained through effort or $$$.
    As long as there is a way to beat any toon, i.e. they have a counter, it's fine, if you don't have it, either farm it, or look for an alternative solution.
    Don't see a problem.
    Only way to get all toons balanced is to all have the same skill set and attributes. That's exciting.
  • Carth_Onassi1973
    1676 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    @danflorian1984 what works for me counter wise is rex lead, aalya, sunfac, zylo and boba (used to use 5's but in the process of modding him for raids with the other clones). And that's not even a good team. But the cool thing is when there's an AOE, they all go (except boba unless aalya calls him) and they do a great job.

    Especially against Chaze teams :wink: lol
  • Note: can't use that against zaul squads or I get my rear end handed to me.
  • NicWester
    6732 posts Member
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.
  • Asajj is the secret that whales don't want you to know about because she destroys all of the pre-taunt metas.
  • Nikoms565
    11776 posts Member
    Original Barris and superfast Poe (when they were both meta) both had counters. Both were nerfed. Right or wrong, the "they have counters" didn't stop either of those two nerfs - just saying.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    Oh so we have reached the next level, after "they have counters" is " you can't beat them". Wrong, because of your dog poo of a pair I had to renounce my team and joined the Zaul meta, and now I can beat them just fine:
    https://swgoh.gg/u/danflorian1984/.

    Just because I can beat them doesn't mean they aren't OP, just like my leader Zaul is OP, justblike another rebel pair, Wiggs, is OP on younger shards.

    The difference between you and me is that while we both use OP, broken toons WITH COUNTERS, I actually admit it, and I would be fine with Zaul being nerfed for the sake of diversity in game. I CAN adapt playing outside the meta. I refused to use the rebels while leveling up, I can can start again from scratch using a new team. Can you say the same?
  • Nikoms565
    11776 posts Member
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    I honestly think he is incapable of that.
  • This has come up so many times. To the OP's credit, restating the issue, Baze is effectively a full team. Right, I mean, this isn't just "oh man, Dukes just took down my entire team, comeagainwut?" Please, most of us on this forum are well past that.

    Most of us can take down Chaze too. I prefer Boba as the go to counter in a lot of instances, but whatever. Wiggs was never a full team, they were effectively annoying, and could burn a toon from the start, but still, it was a cheap trick, they were old (Nerf) Rey in an updated form. Zmaul is another cheap trick and he takes a team too. Rex is a laugh, I use my Arena team from this time in 2016 to defeat them! (and yes, the OP Rey is on it, LOLZ)

    The point is these two toons are not a cheap trick. They have everything it takes to stand up to a plethora of challenges and they don't need much else. With GK it's a force to be reckoned with, and you can still slot in 2 more toons and it really doesn't have to be faction specific at all (which is fine, btw) The question is, should 2 toons be able to act as a stand alone team?

    The other issue is the very concept of "OP is only a toon that breaks the game, or can ONLY be defeated by said toons, then no, there has never been an OP toon in this game.

    I think the OP and other's who post need to re-frame. Nihil sub sole novum - so many games haven't gotten past rock-paper-scissors. Your askign for this game to be different in this respect -- and very few can creep up out of one of the oldest games of all time.....

    So no, but I ask, should 2 toons be able to do what normally takes a 3-4 to accomplish?
    #AcolyteShootsTwice
  • leef
    13043 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    i've lost my fair share of battles vs chaze and i don't think they're overpowered.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    i've lost my fair share of battles vs chaze and i don't think they're overpowered.

    True, but you don't believe that any toon is OP :wink:
  • leef
    13043 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    i've lost my fair share of battles vs chaze and i don't think they're overpowered.

    True, but you don't believe that any toon is OP :wink:

    also correct ;)
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    i've lost my fair share of battles vs chaze and i don't think they're overpowered.

    True, but you don't believe that any toon is OP :wink:

    also correct ;)

    Would you be more at ease with the term: "More powerful, useful and versatile than most, if not all, other toons" instead of OP? And with counters, off course, since it is the title of the thread!
This discussion has been closed.