Theorycrafted Zader team for use in arena

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Woodroward
3581 posts Member
edited January 2018
So Zader has fallen out of favor in arena due to many things... mostly rebel related, but there have been new additions to the game since he was deemed not viable for arena.

The additions that I am speaking of are mainly Thrawn, G12, and Wampa.

The addition of g12 has fundamentally altered the makeup of a lot of characters by the changes in their stats.

For instance, K2S0 received a massive protection upgrade when going to g12, while B2 receives only a very minor amount of h+p when going to g12. This shakeup has changed who is arena viable and who isn't compared to pre-g12.

This is important because I believe g12 has made a very complimentary character to Zader arena viable that wasn't before: Tusken Shaman. At max gear he has 31k health and 28k protection before mods.

So the comp I have in mind is basically: Zader lead with Shoretrooper, Thrawn, Tusken Shaman, and Wampa.

The idea is basically that you have Shore to be constantly taunting, Thrawn to deal with whatever need be dealt with, Shaman can heal everyone for 70% health once dots are out and gains 25% tm whenever someone dies, applies 1 or 2 DoTs on basic... which never leave due to Zader lead, which powers up Wampa, who gets stacking crit chance, counter, offense, and tenacity for each DoT on each enemy... and also puts a DoT out on his basic attack.

They should basically have a huge amount of control and damage mitigation between shaman, thrawn, and shore, plus will deal more and more damage from dots while wampa gets stronger and stronger.


So, what is the opinion of the crowd here? What are the flaws in this comp? Does it have enough mitigation without sacrificing enough damage to make the Zader lead feasible again?

Replies

  • @scuba I'd be really interested in your opinion on this comp.
  • CCyrilS
    3536 posts Member
    Im definitely no expert here, but would zid not be better in place of shaman, as he would benefit from tmr from dots with zader lead?
  • I feel like this team would absolutely demolish nightsisters with all the healing to deal with plague, thrawn for zombie, and wampa's aoe daze for stopping tm gain... which is also excellent for CLS leads btw. Kenobi Zarriss can't keep up with the dots after a while.

    JTR leads I'm going back and forth on. Them going a lot means DoTs tick more often but it also means you have to land them fairly quickly... which can be somewhat taken care of by Thrawn trading tm with Zader right away... though he still won't be first.
  • The biggest issue I see is shore isn't a very reliable taunt with all the buff removal out there. Sure, Thrawn might be able to bail him out out once, but by the time he would get a second chance Shaman and likely Thrawn or Vader would be dead. Plus like you said Vader is super slow, and crush for speed down would be vital to get off early, except then you can't use Thrawn to cleanse Shore so he sits there with BI/AB forever.
  • Huatimus
    3669 posts Member
    Zader lead does not provide any speed/TM boosts and without Sith Assassin, your team is going to be so slow that you might be overrun before you even get to do anything.
  • Huatimus wrote: »
    Zader lead does not provide any speed/TM boosts and without Sith Assassin, your team is going to be so slow that you might be overrun before you even get to do anything.



    With zader you're right, no TM boost, BUT there is TM reduction.
    I find your lack of faith disturbing.”
  • Oh please be in my arena shard :)
  • Woodroward
    3581 posts Member
    edited January 2018
    Huatimus wrote: »
    Zader lead does not provide any speed/TM boosts and without Sith Assassin, your team is going to be so slow that you might be overrun before you even get to do anything.

    Meh, thrawn's a 150 and can swap tm with whichever ability I need most at that point: AoE daze from wampa (CLS team: counter and tm gain), Force Crush/Saber Throw from Vader (nightsisters or to get rid of Raid han types quick), or Crit immunity from Shore (JTR leads - eliminate exposes, tm gain and tm removal) so I don't see getting overrun by any team really. Shore will also be speeding up Thrawn and Vader when they use specials.
    The biggest issue I see is shore isn't a very reliable taunt with all the buff removal out there. Sure, Thrawn might be able to bail him out out once, but by the time he would get a second chance Shaman and likely Thrawn or Vader would be dead. Plus like you said Vader is super slow, and crush for speed down would be vital to get off early, except then you can't use Thrawn to cleanse Shore so he sits there with BI/AB forever.

    I thought the idea of a reliable taunt was a thing of the past once Thrawn was introduced. Shore's taunt is part of the equation, but was never intended to actually stay up all the time. I would think that crit immunity backed by huge heals, wampa's AoE daze, and thrawn's fracture should keep these pretty tanky characters from getting blown up as you've descibed.
  • Woodroward
    3581 posts Member
    edited January 2018
    Damodamo wrote: »
    Oh please be in my arena shard :)

    Oh this isn't something I'd be capable of running for a long time. Someone else could though. Doubt you'd be saying that once you faced them. :D
  • Anakin_Skywalker
    1801 posts Member
    edited January 2018
    ZWampa is gonna go mad for sure
    but if i can fracture shore and kill zader, and cleanse it's over
  • Swap Shaman for either Kenobi or better yet Prob droid cause as of right now you have one unreliable taunt and no dispel
  • I too feel the Tuscan is not a big enough asset over others....props for thinking outside the box with him tho. Healing immunity with JTR everywhere and thrawn on all my arena rey team comps mean they will kill Zader and shahman cant prevent it.

    Zader is my favorite and I’m working on Wampa. I will try to bring him back and possibly death trooper might make a better 5th. Once my Wampa is double bayoneted(gonna be a few months), I will be experimenting with him and Zader seems a natural leader....too bad rebels are getting to be less than 50% of the meta.
  • leef
    13052 posts Member
    ....too bad rebels are getting to be less than 50% of the meta.

    latest?cb=20130827193525
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef
    13052 posts Member
    sid could work well instead of shaman. Wampa stuns on expose, wich could come in handy. sid provides even more DoTs.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Yup...my alt(which is my test account) is doing just that...Wampa plus Sid.
  • "So the comp I have in mind is basically: Zader lead with Shoretrooper, Thrawn, Tusken Shaman, and Wampa."

    So is the suggested comp? zVader, ShT, Thrawn, Sid, Wampa

    Not to stray too far from the topic but for those not in arena top 50, (in my shard, I'm within top 200) my 6* Thrawn has kept the door open for zVader. It has been getting harder to stay in top 200 and I'm getting close to try Sith Assassin to help on TMs.
  • scuba
    12142 posts Member
    edited January 2018
    Looking at some of the comments and suggestions.
    Suggestion would be
    GK for ShT not 100% needed but GK is much more reliable taunter and if he is fractured allies still gain Crit immunity
    I also like and dislike the idea of sid for shamen
    You loose the heal but gain exposes which allow wampa to stun.
    Sid is fast so he get exposes out early along with dots to make wampa more of a beast
  • Woodroward
    3581 posts Member
    edited January 2018
    I considered having Sidius in the group, but I thought Tusken Shaman would be more valuable.

    Zader leads fell from favor in arena because they were too easy to blow up. So IMO the way to make Zader arena viable again is to improve his survivability. Unfortunately, doing so usually means sacrificing the effectiveness of Zader's gimmick, which means the team probably won't be able to kill anyone fast enough to survive. Hence the necessity of Tusken Shaman... the only toon that can increase the Zader lead's survivability and damage all at once.

    I've faced Zader with Shore, and it's better than without him, but not that great. The inclusion of Thrawn makes it so that the opponents team gets gimped in some form or another early on, which gives the Zader lead a few more turns or another round or two, but when you include shaman, all of a sudden they are getting another big heal... that makes the whole team hit harder, and the extra DoTs also power the whole team up. I feel like the team wouldn't have any legs without him. Considering that lack of survivability is what drove Zader out of arena, it's a bad idea in my book. Seeing that they redid him so that he is no longer squishy is what inspired me to think that Zader could be arena viable again.

    If all we wanted or needed was DoTs, then Zader wouldn't have left arena to begin with...
  • Kyno
    21947 posts Moderator
    Not to detail this convo, but I have been trying to figure out a way to put vader in a NS team, basically making his Dot act the same as under his lead.... still too slow.
  • Well, pre CLS I took 1st semi regularly with a 269 speed SA. I had plenty of tankiness to survive Zaul offense, Wiggs offense, any team really. Not enough tankiness to survive Bayonet Han/CLS retribution. Speed was Zader’s problem then, CLS bringing retribution is his probmlem now. I don’t think shahman would be enough.

    Zarris(LS scum) wouldn’t help the offense at all, but she also brings defense up combined with Shore crit hit immunity wouldn’t be a bad choice.
  • Woodroward
    3581 posts Member
    edited January 2018
    Well, pre CLS I took 1st semi regularly with a 269 speed SA. I had plenty of tankiness to survive Zaul offense, Wiggs offense, any team really. Not enough tankiness to survive Bayonet Han/CLS retribution. Speed was Zader’s problem then, CLS bringing retribution is his probmlem now. I don’t think shahman would be enough.

    Zarris(LS scum) wouldn’t help the offense at all, but she also brings defense up combined with Shore crit hit immunity wouldn’t be a bad choice.


    Wampa's AoE daze should take care of the counterattack problem I would think.. or at least limit it enough to make Shaman's heal be enough when combined with Shore's heal and crit immunity.

    Maybe the team could afford to give up the offense up and extra DoTs from shaman since Wampa should get uber beasty as time passes, but I was thinking that one of the enemy would still need to die quickly for the team to survive.

    Then there's the whole problem that Barriss's best heal relies on your toons being crit, and a big portion of the defensive strategy here is limiting the number of crits your character take. Bringing Barriss along means wanting to leave Shoretrooper out, more or less.

    I like the outside the box thinking, but it doesn't sound like it would work well to me.
  • Wouldn’t Chaze blow that up by turning all the dots and daze into health and counter you to death?
  • Barris/Shore combo came to mind because of the speedy dispelling on rey squads...and they need crits to go. Shore’s crit immunity is a one turn trick...barris is all the time and the enemy generall focusses on her then. Plus she dispels a hurt ally.

    My arena is 1 NS team, a couple Rex mixes and a whole lot of CLS/JTR teams. I’m building my Wampa now. I’m not following this meta...I do have JTR, and I’m sick of running Luke. I’m a month or so off(Wampa needs his double bayonets in my opinion) but I will be running some combo of Zader/Death/Thrawn/Talzin/Shore/Wampa/EP.

    Til I get IPD I’ll probably have to include one of GK/Zarris/R2 for survivability, but as a DS man, I gotta get away from rebels!
  • Dryff
    622 posts Member
    @Woodroward Yeah, I think Tusken Shaman just doesn't provide enough healing...he would heal what, maybe once in a battle? I think if you wanted to compete at the very highest level, you might need double tank if you are banking on the long-play of DoTs and Wampa:

    Zader, Wampa, Sidious/Thrawn, Shore, GK

    I think you would use Sidious against teams without CLS for the AoE DoTs and expose. But you MUST have Thrawn fracture CLS. If I'm not mistaken, CLS unique works on DoTs, meaning he will gain 40-50% turn meter each time a rebel ally takes a turn against Zader.

    And obviously you'd get totally wrecked by any Thrawn lead :D
  • Dryff
    622 posts Member
    Let's just say you go against the Titan team...

    Raid Han leads off and stuns Vader > CLS dispels Shore and inflicts Buff Immunity > You must use Thrawn to cleanse either Vader or Shore > Enemy Thrawn fractures Wampa or your Thrawn > Enemy Han Stuns Vader if you Cleansed him, or Stuns Wampa/Thrawn (whoever Thrawn didn't fracture) > Snowball ensues (you have 3 disabled characters, have taken 80k dmg and haven't even done any damage)

    This is why Speed is the primary problem here, and Sidious is ?probably? the solution, as he would go first and his AoE might remove enough turn meter for you turn the snowball around. This is also why I think the double tank with GK would be more viable than Shaman, as it would keep your damage dealers from getting neutered before the fight begins.

    Love the idea of this team though and finding the right combination to make it work!

  • Woodroward
    3581 posts Member
    edited January 2018
    Dryff wrote: »
    @Woodroward Yeah, I think Tusken Shaman just doesn't provide enough healing...he would heal what, maybe once in a battle? I think if you wanted to compete at the very highest level, you might need double tank if you are banking on the long-play of DoTs and Wampa:

    Zader, Wampa, Sidious/Thrawn, Shore, GK

    I think you would use Sidious against teams without CLS for the AoE DoTs and expose. But you MUST have Thrawn fracture CLS. If I'm not mistaken, CLS unique works on DoTs, meaning he will gain 40-50% turn meter each time a rebel ally takes a turn against Zader.

    And obviously you'd get totally wrecked by any Thrawn lead :D

    Shaman has a very large heal on a 3 turn cooldown and gains tm and self heals whenever someone dies. I see him getting that heal off 3-4 times in a match... something like 8 times against nightsisters with all the zombie deaths.
    Dryff wrote: »
    Let's just say you go against the Titan team...

    Raid Han leads off and stuns Vader > CLS dispels Shore and inflicts Buff Immunity > You must use Thrawn to cleanse either Vader or Shore > Enemy Thrawn fractures Wampa or your Thrawn > Enemy Han Stuns Vader if you Cleansed him, or Stuns Wampa/Thrawn (whoever Thrawn didn't fracture) > Snowball ensues (you have 3 disabled characters, have taken 80k dmg and haven't even done any damage)

    This is why Speed is the primary problem here, and Sidious is ?probably? the solution, as he would go first and his AoE might remove enough turn meter for you turn the snowball around. This is also why I think the double tank with GK would be more viable than Shaman, as it would keep your damage dealers from getting neutered before the fight begins.

    Love the idea of this team though and finding the right combination to make it work!

    Nah, more like: Raid han leads off and stuns vader, CLS gives shore buff immunity, so I have to use thrawn on Wampa to make AoE daze keep CLS team from gaining tm and counterattacking, which gives enough time for Shore to put crit immunity up on most everyone, which means no auto cleanse from R2 so the daze doesn't go away. {This is why Shore's regularly coming 2 turn crit immunity is better than GK's crit immunity, it can be used preventatively instead of only reactionarily. It's actually one of the keys to the defense of the comp.)

    Their Thrawn won't fracture right away because there will be debuffs to cleanse.

    In one round I will have effectively crippled that CLS team while only having one of my characters disabled to stun. In the meantime, I'll still be putting DoTs out with Shaman and Wampa.
    Post edited by Woodroward on
  • Okay I know your post is for arena however...

    In a raid i ran Vader lead with shaman, Hera, Ezra, and Thrawn... because shaman dot (double dot) is from his basic attack, the called assists from Hera and Ezra and turn meter swap of thrawn, I had just under 100 DoT on my first trial run with this team. (could have gotten more if my shaman was modded for potency) - thrawn turn meter swap also helps speed Vader culling blade
  • Dryff
    622 posts Member
    @Woodroward GK cleanses the AoE Daze on his first turn. You DEFINITELY wouldn't want to launch the Wampa's AoE before that cleanse or you're in even worse shape than the scenario I described...you won't stick Daze on CLS longer than a single turn with ANY squad.

    Both of our examples would be assuming your Thrawn is faster than theirs too. In fact, your Thrawn would have to be faster than an enemy CLS as well, since he will feed 10% turn meter to the rest of the enemy team.

    Not trying to burst your bubble, just trying to work out how this team could possibly work against the meta.
  • Zader teams have the potential to be really scary, especially since no one runs tenacity up anymore but unfortunately they're too slow to probably do well. Zader, wampa, and thrawn could be a decent trio, but I think shaman and shore are too slow and don't provide enough overall utility to be the answer in the other spots.

    You'll have to find a way to fit another dot dealer and tank in there, while also having a tm manipulator or stunner/controller in there to make this work
  • So what about Zader, Wampa, Thrawn, Zid, and RG? There’s your stun and Dot dealer...?
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