Unlike MSF which could get away with this - as it uses the same pieces to make "custom" parts for each hero. All the crafted pieces in SWGOH are shared among all toons. They can't like... change the gear to apply negatives.
The only fix that's going to make any sense and not derail the NS train... the only one that's not going to destroy the investment of multiple zetas and gear among a number of toons... is they take her unique and inverse the health/protection/defense gained by each gear tier. So that by G12 she's essentially weaker - but then also faster and hits harder (a bonus) then she was at g4.
This makes her a better paper zombie - requires gear - then encourages it with the speed/dmg gain from gear levels. No need to reverse mods - people simply need to be cognizant of how to best mod the zombie - as with all toons.
I don't see anything else that doesn't destroy the concept.
“At the end of her turn, and at the start of each encounter, NS Zombie gains Taunt for 1 turn. Whenever dealt damage, Zombie has a 50% chance to be defeated. When NS Zombie is defeated while any other NS allies are active, she is Revived with 100% Heath and TM% equal to her % of Max Health when defeated. This Revive can’t be prevented.”
No changes to any other NS needed. People can keep their paper zombies, but g12 Zombie will be a much better(and MUCH faster) taunting tank, while still being able to feed Ventress and Daka significantly better then a geared Zombie does now.
Zombie isn't even a part of the Asajj acolyte Traya team, Zombie has worked well for many months and is part of one of the best factions. Changing Zombie in ANY WAY NOW AFTER everyone has farmed Zombie to 7* and invested heavily in Talzin, Asajj, Daka, Talia, yes even Talia!!!! Changing Zombie now would be a criminal act to the player base.
If I buy stock in Youtube, and I have been investing in Youtube for a years, Google can't come in and say YouTube Stock is to good everyone who bought YouTube stock now owns Blockbuster and here's a free VHS of Dances with the Wolves as compensation.
I invested in Nightsisters because their kit. After the LOOOOOOOONG farm of Zombie and Talzin to 7 stars it should be left alone.
If CG read this, what does CG think will happen if CG decides Nerf the zombie strategy that all the top guilds have used for months to get their 7* Traya?
That's not even bad now ask what if this nerf is coincidentally when all free to play unlocks a 7 star Zombie.
Is that the intended gaming experience were all shooting for here?
Chase the carrot, chase the carrot, chase the carrot then oh look u grabbed the carrot, just kidding!!! (steals carrot back & puts it on a longer stick). Now chase this one. Seriously how does CG think this will work out.
People chill out a bit. I swear I feel like half of you didn’t even read the bit about zombie so let me show you.
Our goal is to make Zombie still fit her roll as the same constantly dying awesome taunting tank she's always been. We're also looking at how we bring some of the juice of her constantly dying under the Paper Zombie paradigm and bring that into the powered up Zombie.
This is very important, especially the last sentence. They want to take the idea of paper zombie and bring it into powered up zombie. This will most likely be in the form of a new unique that unlocks at a higher gear level. It says nothing about making a low level paper zombie less viable. They want to make a g12 zombie MORE viable. Then you can decide for yourself if it’s worth it to gear or keep her the way she is.
I'm not sure if this has been said or not.
But wouldn't it be possible to make zombie unique in that as she gains gear levels, her health and protection pool are diminished, instead of increased? Wouldn't this make her initial kit still work just the same as "paper zombie", but allow for better results at higher gear levels?
I'm not sure if this has been said or not.
But wouldn't it be possible to make zombie unique in that as she gains gear levels, her health and protection pool are diminished, instead of increased? Wouldn't this make her initial kit still work just the same as "paper zombie", but allow for better results at higher gear levels?
Paper zombie in the raid is clearly better. It’s not always the case everywhere else. It was a hot debate back when she was being run in arena whether it was better to have her strong or weak. I personally preferred strong
so then wouldn't it be the best of both worlds? all her stats would increase normally per gear level, except for health and protection. Allowing for daka's zeta and asajj unique to be more effective?
so then wouldn't it be the best of both worlds? all her stats would increase normally per gear level, except for health and protection. Allowing for daka's zeta and asajj unique to be more effective?
My point is in PVP I want more health/Protection sometimes. I want zombie to keep taunt and stay alive against teams that stun, for example, so she is absorbing that. I don’t want her to die before Thrawn fractures, because I want her taking the fracture, not Daka.
Just give the zombie 2% less health each time it revives, apply taunt at the start of a turn rather than at the end, introduce a 'fragile' state/debuff after it's health pool drops below a set amount, whereby the zombie no longer applies taunt at all.
This way a geared zombie is actually better than a low geared because of the increased health pool allowing it to remain a taunting menace for longer but removes the use of a paper zombie as that'll lose its taunting ability faster.
The zombie will always revive until no nightsisters are left as per usual but the health pool and gearing are directly related to its usefulness in the team with these changes. This is the point of the zombie, changing this breaks the toon, the revive should stay but the act of reviving should affect the toon in a negative way meaning that gearing up to g12 limits the negative side effects.
I believe CG could possibly implement a gear requirement for Zombie’s ability to revive (possibly at G8) this promotes people to at least gear the toon up to have protection, while still maintaining the ability to revive.
A lot of these other suggestions that want to make the toon less durable as you gear it up does not align with what CG wants gearing toons up to be (their model). They want toons to be more powerful as they are geared up and want to incentivize gearing characters up.
That being said, if they truely believed in that model, they should have thought of it from the beginning when they were creating this toon. There is no easy “fix” without changing the character completely (that I can think of besides the above recommendation). I think any changes made will cause a negative reaction from the community at this point.
They could make the guaranteed revive a chance to revive and tie this chance to max health. And change the unique ability to a zeta ability that adds a health transfer from zombie to the NS ally with lowest health. That way zombie would continuously loose health points and could only revive with 100% chance if max health is on G12 level.
One solution would be to borrow the "zombie weakness" from D&D: Some zombies there are instantly defeated whenever they recieves a crit. It could be a % chance rather than 100% at all ranks, to give some progress to the ability, and finish by a zeta where the zombie explodes, dealing damage and/or plague to enemies. Plague for everyone on death would be especially annoying...
The biggest surprise is they left the Zombie alone all this time. They've known for months that a less geared Zombie was more beneficial than a better geared Zombie and that should be an obvious crime in a game like this.
They want you to gear up. They want you to feel BETTER about having better mods, better gear, better levels, etc. etc. Imagine if they let any star level character participate in heroic raids instead of just 7*, now suddenly the people with a 2* zombie are even further in the lead in terms of Nightsister teams. It just doesn't make sense.
Summary: All the people wanting the Zombie left alone are dreaming. I don't know what their plans will be, but you can bet that the person who actually put gear on their zombie is going to see a bigger return on their investment, as it should be.
Easiest fix is to add an appropriate gear requirement to the raids, just as there is a 7* requirement for heoric add a G10 requirement for Heroic.
Then you have to have a geared zombie to use in the raid and it will not affect other areas of the game
The whole point is to dream up a fix that doesn't wreck how people are using the zombie. If I must gear her up to use her - the strategy we use of deliberately letting her die as frequently as possible is shut down.
This isn't a fix for the problem at all. The fix is to make her better at her job at max gear, instead of being better at her job at minimum gear.
So after discussions on the Nightsister discord and thinking how to make gearing zombie better in all situations but not at the expense of hurting the Nightsisters in other areas or thematically I've got a proposal which covers all bases (hopefully). This allows Nightsisters to choose what type of zombie they have through an ability called "Decay", decay makes the zombie more fragile but gives a bonus to offense and speed (thus making a decayed G12 zombie as fragile as a low gear but still fast and a threat. There is one other change though and this swaps her endless horde omega ability with the normal endless horde ability to offer no benefit to a low geared zombie but still make her a viable tank while gearing up.
This proposal would allow players using zombie to tailor her use depending on the opponents and situation although once the fat zombie activates Decay she can't go back that encounter and must remain in a decayed state making it a tactical choice for Arena and TW.
New Ability: Decay (1 turn cooldown)
1) Upon use Zombie gains Decay. Requires Gear 7
Decay: This buff cannot be dispelled or removed and will persist through defeats and revives. This character removes 25% from maximum health and protection but gains 10% offense and +3 speed. Once this buff is active Decay cannot be used again this encounter.
2) Requires Gear 9
Add -25% to maximum health and protection loss (-50% total) and +10% offense (20%) and +3 speed (+6)
3) Requires Gear 11
Add -25% to maximum health and protection loss (-75% total) and +10% offense (30%) and +3 speed (+9)
Change to Endless Horde:
At rank 1, Zombie will now gain taunt at the start of each encounter however taunt at the end of her turn is now moved to the Omega level with a gear minimum requirement of 7
So after discussions on the Nightsister discord and thinking how to make gearing zombie better in all situations but not at the expense of hurting the Nightsisters in other areas or thematically I've got a proposal which covers all bases (hopefully). This allows Nightsisters to choose what type of zombie they have through an ability called "Decay", decay makes the zombie more fragile but gives a bonus to offense and speed (thus making a decayed G12 zombie as fragile as a low gear but still fast and a threat. There is one other change though and this swaps her endless horde omega ability with the normal endless horde ability to offer no benefit to a low geared zombie but still make her a viable tank while gearing up.
This proposal would allow players using zombie to tailor her use depending on the opponents and situation although once the fat zombie activates Decay she can't go back that encounter and must remain in a decayed state making it a tactical choice for Arena and TW.
New Ability: Decay (1 turn cooldown)
1) Upon use Zombie gains Decay. Requires Gear 7
Decay: This buff cannot be dispelled or removed and will persist through defeats and revives. This character removes 25% from maximum health and protection but gains 10% offense and +3 speed. Once this buff is active Decay cannot be used again this encounter.
2) Requires Gear 9
Add -25% to maximum health and protection loss (-50% total) and +10% offense (20%) and +3 speed (+6)
3) Requires Gear 11
Add -25% to maximum health and protection loss (-75% total) and +10% offense (30%) and +3 speed (+9)
Change to Endless Horde:
At rank 1, Zombie will now gain taunt at the start of each encounter however taunt at the end of her turn is now moved to the Omega level with a gear minimum requirement of 7
My thoughts in the zombie issue also tend to finding a mechanic that reduces health and make the high gear zombie die often and revive with 100% chance. The devs need to find a solution that is consistent with the general upgrade mechanic. Most abilities are available at a rather low gear level and that won’t change.
Really why should it be changed now. CG/EA have screwed over the community again and again. They shouldn’t make any stipulations with the gear no zeta or any changes to the raid requirements. Just give people a refund of all their gear and make everyone’s zombie weak and allow each player to decide if they want to go strong or weak. Stop punishing the players for finding ways to use the pieces that you gave them. The game has started once you deploy something into the wild. The worst practice you can do which you have done several times is to give the customer something and then take it away. You are never supposed to downgrade a customer only upgrade them. The power creep is there for a reason if you want to do something to make zombie less effective then create something that will be more effective. Stop trying to steal our toys and make better ones that have the intention you actually want. End rant.
Here is my proposed solution to the zombie problem of being less valuable with more gear. My aim is to make zombie better at a higher gear without changing how she currently performs at G7. This will make NS better overall, but I think that’s ok because it will offset yesterday’s nerf in the raid and they aren’t really meta in arena right now anyways, so a boost won’t braak the game.
New Unique:
Zombie gains defense% equal to 0.002% of her protection. When zombie is damaged she gains plague that cannot be resisted. Zombie does not spread plague during her turn. At the start of her turn, she inflicts plague on a random enemy one time for each instance of plague on zombie. This cannot be resisted. When zombie is healed to full health she grants all NS allies 2% offense and crit damage (stacking) and 5% TM for e
spigrorpwa of plague dispelled.
The point of this is to make it more valuable to make Zombie tanky than to die, while still keeping the same value for her death. Now a G12 zombie will be able to absorb a lot of hits and then buff all her allies when she is healed and spread unresistsble plague when she takes turns after being damaged. The exact numbers might need some fine tuning, but I think this concept would be a great fix that would make almost everyone happy.
Just wanted to remind everyone if you look hard enough for it. This is a direct contradiction to a comment made when asked about this strategy months and months ago.
Have to love the new fix ETA. End of September. You do realise thats like 55 days, right?
Oh well, its been bugged and implemented poorly designed and untested, for 10 months, we can wait another 2..or you know what, just give an eta of 10 years. What difference it makes really.
Change Zombie's 100% chance to revive to one based on her max protection. I.E. 60% chance to revive plus 1% additional chance per 1000 max protection. ***I actually am to lazy to look up Zombies max protection if geared... I assume 40k...***
So at G12 or perhaps G11 with protection focused gear, she would have a 100% chance.
Its a bit of a hack to force players to have her geared... But does do the job.
The problem with asking for input is that people who don’t understand how the game mechanics work still think their input is worthwhile because we live in an age where social media makes people believe their opinion on everything has value regardless of their level of education or knowledge on a subject.
Here is a hint: If your proposed “fix” involves making paper zombie useless while doing nothing to improve zombie’s usefulness at higher gear levels, it’s not a fix. If your proposed fix does not include some mechanic that will help a geared zombie die more often thus feeding Asajj and Daka’s uniques, it is not a good fix.
The decay mechanic mentioned above could work. I’m not sure if they will give us an active ability that lets us decide how best to use her for a particular encounter, but it would preserve the feel of the team while also rewarding the effort to gear zombie. The key thing to remember is that Noghtsisters aren’t OP. They don’t need a nerf. They have plenty of hard counters in PvP but also have some usefulness against particular tough squads that gives them a niche in TW. They are useful in some raids but not all. And to be used at the high end in Sith Raid, they require solid mods and a high level of attention and skill from the player.
Replies
The only fix that's going to make any sense and not derail the NS train... the only one that's not going to destroy the investment of multiple zetas and gear among a number of toons... is they take her unique and inverse the health/protection/defense gained by each gear tier. So that by G12 she's essentially weaker - but then also faster and hits harder (a bonus) then she was at g4.
This makes her a better paper zombie - requires gear - then encourages it with the speed/dmg gain from gear levels. No need to reverse mods - people simply need to be cognizant of how to best mod the zombie - as with all toons.
I don't see anything else that doesn't destroy the concept.
Change her unique to this....
“At the end of her turn, and at the start of each encounter, NS Zombie gains Taunt for 1 turn. Whenever dealt damage, Zombie has a 50% chance to be defeated. When NS Zombie is defeated while any other NS allies are active, she is Revived with 100% Heath and TM% equal to her % of Max Health when defeated. This Revive can’t be prevented.”
No changes to any other NS needed. People can keep their paper zombies, but g12 Zombie will be a much better(and MUCH faster) taunting tank, while still being able to feed Ventress and Daka significantly better then a geared Zombie does now.
Zombie isn't even a part of the Asajj acolyte Traya team, Zombie has worked well for many months and is part of one of the best factions. Changing Zombie in ANY WAY NOW AFTER everyone has farmed Zombie to 7* and invested heavily in Talzin, Asajj, Daka, Talia, yes even Talia!!!! Changing Zombie now would be a criminal act to the player base.
If I buy stock in Youtube, and I have been investing in Youtube for a years, Google can't come in and say YouTube Stock is to good everyone who bought YouTube stock now owns Blockbuster and here's a free VHS of Dances with the Wolves as compensation.
I invested in Nightsisters because their kit. After the LOOOOOOOONG farm of Zombie and Talzin to 7 stars it should be left alone.
If CG read this, what does CG think will happen if CG decides Nerf the zombie strategy that all the top guilds have used for months to get their 7* Traya?
That's not even bad now ask what if this nerf is coincidentally when all free to play unlocks a 7 star Zombie.
Is that the intended gaming experience were all shooting for here?
Chase the carrot, chase the carrot, chase the carrot then oh look u grabbed the carrot, just kidding!!! (steals carrot back & puts it on a longer stick). Now chase this one. Seriously how does CG think this will work out.
Our goal is to make Zombie still fit her roll as the same constantly dying awesome taunting tank she's always been. We're also looking at how we bring some of the juice of her constantly dying under the Paper Zombie paradigm and bring that into the powered up Zombie.
This is very important, especially the last sentence. They want to take the idea of paper zombie and bring it into powered up zombie. This will most likely be in the form of a new unique that unlocks at a higher gear level. It says nothing about making a low level paper zombie less viable. They want to make a g12 zombie MORE viable. Then you can decide for yourself if it’s worth it to gear or keep her the way she is.
But wouldn't it be possible to make zombie unique in that as she gains gear levels, her health and protection pool are diminished, instead of increased? Wouldn't this make her initial kit still work just the same as "paper zombie", but allow for better results at higher gear levels?
Paper zombie in the raid is clearly better. It’s not always the case everywhere else. It was a hot debate back when she was being run in arena whether it was better to have her strong or weak. I personally preferred strong
My point is in PVP I want more health/Protection sometimes. I want zombie to keep taunt and stay alive against teams that stun, for example, so she is absorbing that. I don’t want her to die before Thrawn fractures, because I want her taking the fracture, not Daka.
Refund zombies unique to all players. Have it then be locked until zombie is g9 or g10.
This way a geared zombie is actually better than a low geared because of the increased health pool allowing it to remain a taunting menace for longer but removes the use of a paper zombie as that'll lose its taunting ability faster.
The zombie will always revive until no nightsisters are left as per usual but the health pool and gearing are directly related to its usefulness in the team with these changes. This is the point of the zombie, changing this breaks the toon, the revive should stay but the act of reviving should affect the toon in a negative way meaning that gearing up to g12 limits the negative side effects.
Then you have to have a geared zombie to use in the raid and it will not affect other areas of the game
A lot of these other suggestions that want to make the toon less durable as you gear it up does not align with what CG wants gearing toons up to be (their model). They want toons to be more powerful as they are geared up and want to incentivize gearing characters up.
That being said, if they truely believed in that model, they should have thought of it from the beginning when they were creating this toon. There is no easy “fix” without changing the character completely (that I can think of besides the above recommendation). I think any changes made will cause a negative reaction from the community at this point.
They want you to gear up. They want you to feel BETTER about having better mods, better gear, better levels, etc. etc. Imagine if they let any star level character participate in heroic raids instead of just 7*, now suddenly the people with a 2* zombie are even further in the lead in terms of Nightsister teams. It just doesn't make sense.
Summary: All the people wanting the Zombie left alone are dreaming. I don't know what their plans will be, but you can bet that the person who actually put gear on their zombie is going to see a bigger return on their investment, as it should be.
The whole point is to dream up a fix that doesn't wreck how people are using the zombie. If I must gear her up to use her - the strategy we use of deliberately letting her die as frequently as possible is shut down.
This isn't a fix for the problem at all. The fix is to make her better at her job at max gear, instead of being better at her job at minimum gear.
This proposal would allow players using zombie to tailor her use depending on the opponents and situation although once the fat zombie activates Decay she can't go back that encounter and must remain in a decayed state making it a tactical choice for Arena and TW.
New Ability: Decay (1 turn cooldown)
1) Upon use Zombie gains Decay. Requires Gear 7
Decay: This buff cannot be dispelled or removed and will persist through defeats and revives. This character removes 25% from maximum health and protection but gains 10% offense and +3 speed. Once this buff is active Decay cannot be used again this encounter.
2) Requires Gear 9
Add -25% to maximum health and protection loss (-50% total) and +10% offense (20%) and +3 speed (+6)
3) Requires Gear 11
Add -25% to maximum health and protection loss (-75% total) and +10% offense (30%) and +3 speed (+9)
Change to Endless Horde:
At rank 1, Zombie will now gain taunt at the start of each encounter however taunt at the end of her turn is now moved to the Omega level with a gear minimum requirement of 7
My thoughts in the zombie issue also tend to finding a mechanic that reduces health and make the high gear zombie die often and revive with 100% chance. The devs need to find a solution that is consistent with the general upgrade mechanic. Most abilities are available at a rather low gear level and that won’t change.
Just wanted to remind everyone if you look hard enough for it. This is a direct contradiction to a comment made when asked about this strategy months and months ago.
Gear VIII zombie gets all her speed pieces, fastest for arena. 2* (can't raid). Best at lvl 80, not 85.
Gear V zombie gets no protection. Can take her to 7* for raids. Still squishy but slower. Best at lvl 80, not 85.
Gear XII zombie has max speed pieces and can raid but is burned if fractured and doesn't benefit Daka and Asajj nearly as much.
Pick your poison. Don't rush to gear or star anything before considering implications. Lesson learned hopefully.
Oh well, its been bugged and implemented poorly designed and untested, for 10 months, we can wait another 2..or you know what, just give an eta of 10 years. What difference it makes really.
Change Zombie's 100% chance to revive to one based on her max protection. I.E. 60% chance to revive plus 1% additional chance per 1000 max protection. ***I actually am to lazy to look up Zombies max protection if geared... I assume 40k...***
So at G12 or perhaps G11 with protection focused gear, she would have a 100% chance.
Its a bit of a hack to force players to have her geared... But does do the job.
Here is a hint: If your proposed “fix” involves making paper zombie useless while doing nothing to improve zombie’s usefulness at higher gear levels, it’s not a fix. If your proposed fix does not include some mechanic that will help a geared zombie die more often thus feeding Asajj and Daka’s uniques, it is not a good fix.
The decay mechanic mentioned above could work. I’m not sure if they will give us an active ability that lets us decide how best to use her for a particular encounter, but it would preserve the feel of the team while also rewarding the effort to gear zombie. The key thing to remember is that Noghtsisters aren’t OP. They don’t need a nerf. They have plenty of hard counters in PvP but also have some usefulness against particular tough squads that gives them a niche in TW. They are useful in some raids but not all. And to be used at the high end in Sith Raid, they require solid mods and a high level of attention and skill from the player.