The infinite loop.mechanic is the ONLY reason zfinn works. If it is somehow "fixed" to not allow the infinite loop, I'd want a zeta refund. That infinite loop if you can outspeed your opponent is what makes zFinn a Go-To offensive team in GA/TW, it's what makes him viable in P2 of HAAT for newer players trying to get a team that can put up decent numbers. It's a single zeta that's extremely valuable for new and growing players to be able to make serious growth in multiple areas of the game. It's never been a problem until now because of the RNG element to getting expose to stick.
3p0 and his mass assist, combined with rebels (many of whom attack multiple times) being able to expose is the issue. Even that isn't much of an issue IMO. It's the fact that traya topples and doesn't stack tenacity when toppled.
As far as "future content" issues, they can always make future raid bosses immune to expose and completely negate the issue, making any resistance teams (including JTR) useless for that raid. They've already done that with other status effects like daze and stun in raids. All it takes is forethought by the devs to plan around teams.
They just need more skilled players as their beta testers. I'm half convinced that those who design the games don't spend nearly as much time as the players do, reading forums, surfing reddit, discord, gamechanger vids, and theorycrafting. If they knew the game they've made as well as the players do, they'd have caught a bunch of issues before they became an issue.
If an infinite loop is the only thing that makes a character viable, it's just not a good character, it's bad design. And if people thought about some things and reported the one or other issue to the devs long time ago, instead of just taking any advantage they can get from it, such things would never become so much of an issue. It was the same with the "paper zombie" bug, people should be smart enough to realize that things were initially not intended to work like that. Same goes for any kind of infinite loop that appears ingame - and whenever you experience one, take into account that it will be fixed sooner or later. My guess is that the devs just didn't care enough before the issues with C3PO.
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
Are you seeing a bunch of them in arena? We had two and they both quickly switched to CLS because they were getting destroyed on D.
There are four in my top 50 right now. They are frequently in my way when I am climbing.
I don't think four teams in a top 50 needs fixing.
It has nothing to do with how many there are, I was just answering your question. Having a team that can get into a loop that prevents the opposing team from ever getting a turn is, IMO, not good game design.
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
Are you seeing a bunch of them in arena? We had two and they both quickly switched to CLS because they were getting destroyed on D.
There are four in my top 50 right now. They are frequently in my way when I am climbing.
I don't think four teams in a top 50 needs fixing.
It has nothing to do with how many there are, I was just answering your question. Having a team that can get into a loop that prevents the opposing team from ever getting a turn is, IMO, not good game design.
And if hardly anyone is using it because it doesn't hold as good as other options, I see no reason it has to be changed. It's no different than the original zFinn team. The only place it's different is in raids. HAAT is older content that can already be solo'd and Tophat said they weren't concerned about. The only place they are supposedly concerned about is the end game content of the Sith Raid, and that's the only place it needs to change.
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
Are you seeing a bunch of them in arena? We had two and they both quickly switched to CLS because they were getting destroyed on D.
There are four in my top 50 right now. They are frequently in my way when I am climbing.
I don't think four teams in a top 50 needs fixing.
It has nothing to do with how many there are, I was just answering your question. Having a team that can get into a loop that prevents the opposing team from ever getting a turn is, IMO, not good game design.
And if hardly anyone is using it because it doesn't hold as good as other options, I see no reason it has to be changed. It's no different than the original zFinn team. The only place it's different is in raids. HAAT is older content that can already be solo'd and Tophat said they weren't concerned about. The only place they are supposedly concerned about is the end game content of the Sith Raid, and that's the only place it needs to change.
My experience is that it is different. zFinn never won on defense originally because there weren’t enough exposes for the AI to ever manage to keep the train going. That is no longer true. I, personally, find the current team extremely irritating.
Well you're right, I was referring to it being no different than the original team on offense. On defense we have different experiences because our shard didn't have any trouble with the zFinn/C3PO team.
And I have a selfish motive, which is that I can do HAAT on auto like Rancor now, instead of having to spend 90 minutes twice a week on it.
It is not enough to change Traya. ZFin and C3-PO can get in an infinite loop in arena as well. There was that video with a zMaul-Triumvirate-Nest team facing zFin and C3-PO and basically the resistance team was hitting Nest for almost two minutes without anyone else taking a turn until the battle timed out. It's one thing to get to a situation like this when there is a stand alone Nest vs zFinn or CLS C3 team, but all the other 4 sith were alive, they were just stealthed and couldn't take a turn.
So you're saying that a full team can attack Nest for two minutes and time out.... but the team attacking is the problem? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?
For those who want to nerf ZFinn because he's irritating, I could say the same of NS or Nest. I run a zFinn squad with 3PO and R2. My team falls over 40+ spots. But I am willing to live with it. When I ran a Bastilla led Jedi squad, I learned to avoid NS because they were a boring and difficult challenge. If you find my team comp annoying, go around it. Just because you haven't theory crafted and modded your team to take mine down is not a reason to nerf my team.
I’m not a fan of Zfinn autoing the HAAT in an infinite loop... it “nerfs/undermines” all the other HAAT teams that everyone has invested in.
By this logic Revan should be Nerfed because Revan getting 20+ million dmg de-valued all who invested in Rey to get 5-10M dmg. BH should be Nerfed because they are better than chex.
Games develop over time the raid has been out over a year now and even with g12 and all zetas and all potency mods u still have to hope rng goes in your favor. I have C3po and zfinn and my best run was 25% so its not as easy as auto and walk away.
This team takes lots of planning, several legendary toons, elite mods and good RNG on top of it all to score well. Just because someone posted a video on auto with their +136% potency god mod team and auto-d the whole phase doesn't mean everyone can do it. If someone has Han and 3po and zfinn and chewbacca g12 all 7* plus mods to bump to 125%+ potency they should be able to score really really well, some would argue solo a phase at that point.
Kinda depressing to see the continual nerfs to preserve the sith raid, clearing p3 isn't gonna make smaller weaker guilds pass the raid if they cant get out of p1 or 2 on heroic then soloing p3 is irrelevant.
As was said before many times, there is no infinite loop problem. No matter how your potency high and opponent tenacity low, there is always 5% chance to resist debuff. So, soon or later, that 5% chance will works few times at row and Traya will get TM. Its not infinite loop, its just very long loop. So, there is no "broken" code that leads to exploit, its only blind CG desire to keep SRaid annoying as long as they can, despite fact that everyone hate such approach. Outside HSraid, yes, ZFinn can beat Traya, but also CLS-c3PO can do the same, and they even can beat Revan, which Fzinn-c3po combo cannot do. Its not OP meta team anyway, I still don't understand why they want to nerf it, instead of releasing few new toons, that can solo entire HSTR. Traya not meta anymore, in my shard Traya teams pushed out from top 20 long ago, why to keep things hard?
+this!
Also everyone is only talking about HSTR... in T6 or even T5 STR p3 Traya has multiple times the HP than on T7, making it impossible to solo the phase cause at some point she gets TM and the "loop" fails.
So if you need to change anything at all, change T7 Traya.
I’m not a fan of Zfinn autoing the HAAT in an infinite loop... it “nerfs/undermines” all the other HAAT teams that everyone has invested in.
By this logic Revan should be Nerfed because Revan getting 20+ million dmg de-valued all who invested in Rey to get 5-10M dmg. BH should be Nerfed because they are better than chex.
Games develop over time the raid has been out over a year now and even with g12 and all zetas and all potency mods u still have to hope rng goes in your favor. I have C3po and zfinn and my best run was 25% so its not as easy as auto and walk away.
This team takes lots of planning, several legendary toons, elite mods and good RNG on top of it all to score well. Just because someone posted a video on auto with their +136% potency god mod team and auto-d the whole phase doesn't mean everyone can do it. If someone has Han and 3po and zfinn and chewbacca g12 all 7* plus mods to bump to 125%+ potency they should be able to score really really well, some would argue solo a phase at that point.
Kinda depressing to see the continual nerfs to preserve the sith raid, clearing p3 isn't gonna make smaller weaker guilds pass the raid if they cant get out of p1 or 2 on heroic then soloing p3 is irrelevant.
Whilst I agree with your first two paragraphs, the third is debatable.
I can fully clear P3 using C3P0 - my C3P0 is G12 and has +145 speed with 95% potency. Finn, Chewie, CLS and Han are also G12. I had to create 4x special potency mod sets for them which takes them all to around 100% potency - this took me like.. 3x mod energy refreshes to accumulate. These potency mods are not rare and are all green or blue rarity pretty much with hardly any speed on.
And the actual raid itself - I have fully completed P3 3x now in a row on full auto after the topple - I literally put my phone on charge press auto and go do something else and check back in around 30 mins when its done. If you have potency at around 100%, RNG isn't a factor at all - you will succeed.
I just pray to god that CG do the right thing and change Treya. Nerfing C3P0 or Finn will upset a lot of people. Changing Treya with extra tenacity or something will literally effect nothing else in the game - why would they not choose this solution? I will be seriously annoyed if they nerf C3P0 into oblivion and make him useless in Haat and Arena as well as the Sith Raid.
For those who want to nerf ZFinn because he's irritating, I could say the same of NS or Nest. I run a zFinn squad with 3PO and R2. My team falls over 40+ spots. But I am willing to live with it. When I ran a Bastilla led Jedi squad, I learned to avoid NS because they were a boring and difficult challenge. If you find my team comp annoying, go around it. Just because you haven't theory crafted and modded your team to take mine down is not a reason to nerf my team.
If there is a team that is guaranteed not to be caught by the loop tell me what it is and I will happily use it. I’ve tried to think about it but I haven’t come up with anything. Tenacity doesn’t fix it since Chewie inflicts tenacity down. If it was just one team that’s not a good counter to this, I wouldn’t be complaining. I am not a great theorycrafter and I am open to advice.
3po basically just makes the whole situation of tm drain/tm gain a lot worse...
So it makes whole zfinn vs any group to a rancor type loop.
Rancor is no fun. Loops are no fun. TM drain+gain in this massive amount is no fun. Assist train with near kill on hans shoot first are no fun. Make the game to actually being played and not just instant kill fest. This is no shooter in the end.
Is that team just camped on first all day every day?
Ask your shard.
One of the people who runs it has payout the hour before I do so it is frequently in first when I am trying to go there.
So ask your shard how they are beating it.
The fact that they can beat it means it's not a problem that needs to be fixed. If the top 20 were all zFinn/C3 because no team could beat them, it needs fixing. That isn't happening.
3po basically just makes the whole situation of tm drain/tm gain a lot worse...
So it makes whole zfinn vs any group to a rancor type loop.
Rancor is no fun. Loops are no fun. TM drain+gain in this massive amount is no fun. Assist train with near kill on hans shoot first are no fun. Make the game to actually being played and not just instant kill fest. This is no shooter in the end.
I'd rather not spend 90 minutes on HAAT twice a week thanks. It's not fun, it's a repetitive grind.
Is that team just camped on first all day every day?
Ask your shard.
One of the people who runs it has payout the hour before I do so it is frequently in first when I am trying to go there.
So ask your shard how they are beating it.
The fact that they can beat it means it's not a problem that needs to be fixed. If the top 20 were all zFinn/C3 because no team could beat them, it needs fixing. That isn't happening.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Beating the team is usually not a problem. The problem is that once in a while the RNG is such that I can lose without even getting a turn. I think that is bad game design and such loops ought not happen.
My point is not that this team is some huge problem that requires a nerf. My point is that the statement “the loop is only an issue in the Sith Raid” is not accurate if you consider what I said above to be a bad thing, as I do.
I saw a few zFinn squads in arena and didn't have any trouble with them. What I do see a lot of now is CLS lead with 3PO that beats Revan. I tear through them on offense with no issue, but that is where I see 3PO being used most in arena. People trying the zFinn squad are getting trounced and I've seen them disappearing. As of right now there are zero in my top 50. Plenty of CLS and even a few RJT squads though.
3po basically just makes the whole situation of tm drain/tm gain a lot worse...
So it makes whole zfinn vs any group to a rancor type loop.
Rancor is no fun. Loops are no fun. TM drain+gain in this massive amount is no fun. Assist train with near kill on hans shoot first are no fun. Make the game to actually being played and not just instant kill fest. This is no shooter in the end.
I'd rather not spend 90 minutes on HAAT twice a week thanks. It's not fun, it's a repetitive grind.
Old raids are basically no fun at all. Mainly due to TM gain/taking away mechanic. It makes the bosses just stand and do nothing at all. There is no fun in this.
Looking forward to mythic raids without tm breaking mechanics and no ns p3 style broken gameplay. Autoplay should always reward less and never allow a full clear as it takes away the point of a game.
Is that team just camped on first all day every day?
Ask your shard.
One of the people who runs it has payout the hour before I do so it is frequently in first when I am trying to go there.
So ask your shard how they are beating it.
The fact that they can beat it means it's not a problem that needs to be fixed. If the top 20 were all zFinn/C3 because no team could beat them, it needs fixing. That isn't happening.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Beating the team is usually not a problem. The problem is that once in a while the RNG is such that I can lose without even getting a turn. I think that is bad game design and such loops ought not happen.
My point is not that this team is some huge problem that requires a nerf. My point is that the statement “the loop is only an issue in the Sith Raid” is not accurate if you consider what I said above to be a bad thing, as I do.
Fair enough. Perhaps my "the loop is only an issue in the Sith Raid" wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that outside the Sith Raid, it's either a much smaller issue (arena) or not a problem at all (HAAT - older raid, should be auto-able).
[/quote]I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Beating the team is usually not a problem. The problem is that once in a while the RNG is such that I can lose without even getting a turn. I think that is bad game design and such loops ought not happen.
[/quote]
I've had this happen vs FO teams, palp teams, JTR teams. If they outspeed me, their kit has so much TM gain that they can get the train running and clear me before I can move (if I use the wrong team).
Now I know THIS particular team uses Han who always shoots first. If you want to beat them, use your own han to stun theirs. 50/50 chance you'll go first and invalidate the strategy entirely. Use an auto-taunting tank that you've modded with crazy high tenacity to block the expose train. It won't make han shoot first at it, but itll stop the train after the initial shot. You may need one like zeta bossk or obi that will re-taunt when dispelled, or GK who will re-taunt when someone is crit.
What I'm saying is in PvP there are strategies to use to work around these teams. You're using paper and trying to beat scissors. Go find a rock and bash it.
As for raids, imagine if rancor wasn't autoable. How many of us would bother with it? I know I'd probably send in 1 team on auto and let it die and collect rewards since I dont care much anymore. Same for HAAT. The raids are just too constant a drain on massive amounts of time. I look forward to when MORE phases of HSTR become autoable.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Beating the team is usually not a problem. The problem is that once in a while the RNG is such that I can lose without even getting a turn. I think that is bad game design and such loops ought not happen.
I've had this happen vs FO teams, palp teams, JTR teams. If they outspeed me, their kit has so much TM gain that they can get the train running and clear me before I can move (if I use the wrong team).
Now I know THIS particular team uses Han who always shoots first. If you want to beat them, use your own han to stun theirs. 50/50 chance you'll go first and invalidate the strategy entirely. Use an auto-taunting tank that you've modded with crazy high tenacity to block the expose train. It won't make han shoot first at it, but itll stop the train after the initial shot. You may need one like zeta bossk or obi that will re-taunt when dispelled, or GK who will re-taunt when someone is crit.
What I'm saying is in PvP there are strategies to use to work around these teams. You're using paper and trying to beat scissors. Go find a rock and bash it.
So you know that Han only gives a 50/50 chance and you’re suggesting that to fix the problem I’m addressing that already happens less than 50% of the time? Sure. High tenacity still doesn’t work because of Chewie, which I already mentioned.
I have no problem with you losing because you are too slow or using the wrong team. I have a problem with there being nothing available to prevent this. There is no rock.
Replies
It has nothing to do with how many there are, I was just answering your question. Having a team that can get into a loop that prevents the opposing team from ever getting a turn is, IMO, not good game design.
And if hardly anyone is using it because it doesn't hold as good as other options, I see no reason it has to be changed. It's no different than the original zFinn team. The only place it's different is in raids. HAAT is older content that can already be solo'd and Tophat said they weren't concerned about. The only place they are supposedly concerned about is the end game content of the Sith Raid, and that's the only place it needs to change.
My experience is that it is different. zFinn never won on defense originally because there weren’t enough exposes for the AI to ever manage to keep the train going. That is no longer true. I, personally, find the current team extremely irritating.
And I have a selfish motive, which is that I can do HAAT on auto like Rancor now, instead of having to spend 90 minutes twice a week on it.
You could have said that when it happened to the Rancor too.
So you're saying that a full team can attack Nest for two minutes and time out.... but the team attacking is the problem? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?
By this logic Revan should be Nerfed because Revan getting 20+ million dmg de-valued all who invested in Rey to get 5-10M dmg. BH should be Nerfed because they are better than chex.
Games develop over time the raid has been out over a year now and even with g12 and all zetas and all potency mods u still have to hope rng goes in your favor. I have C3po and zfinn and my best run was 25% so its not as easy as auto and walk away.
This team takes lots of planning, several legendary toons, elite mods and good RNG on top of it all to score well. Just because someone posted a video on auto with their +136% potency god mod team and auto-d the whole phase doesn't mean everyone can do it. If someone has Han and 3po and zfinn and chewbacca g12 all 7* plus mods to bump to 125%+ potency they should be able to score really really well, some would argue solo a phase at that point.
Kinda depressing to see the continual nerfs to preserve the sith raid, clearing p3 isn't gonna make smaller weaker guilds pass the raid if they cant get out of p1 or 2 on heroic then soloing p3 is irrelevant.
+this!
Also everyone is only talking about HSTR... in T6 or even T5 STR p3 Traya has multiple times the HP than on T7, making it impossible to solo the phase cause at some point she gets TM and the "loop" fails.
So if you need to change anything at all, change T7 Traya.
Whilst I agree with your first two paragraphs, the third is debatable.
I can fully clear P3 using C3P0 - my C3P0 is G12 and has +145 speed with 95% potency. Finn, Chewie, CLS and Han are also G12. I had to create 4x special potency mod sets for them which takes them all to around 100% potency - this took me like.. 3x mod energy refreshes to accumulate. These potency mods are not rare and are all green or blue rarity pretty much with hardly any speed on.
And the actual raid itself - I have fully completed P3 3x now in a row on full auto after the topple - I literally put my phone on charge press auto and go do something else and check back in around 30 mins when its done. If you have potency at around 100%, RNG isn't a factor at all - you will succeed.
I just pray to god that CG do the right thing and change Treya. Nerfing C3P0 or Finn will upset a lot of people. Changing Treya with extra tenacity or something will literally effect nothing else in the game - why would they not choose this solution? I will be seriously annoyed if they nerf C3P0 into oblivion and make him useless in Haat and Arena as well as the Sith Raid.
SWGoH - TurgonGW
Guild - Starchoppers - Feel free to help us in the Raids!
I'm not a fan of CLS autoing the Rancor in an infinite loop... it "nerfs/undermines" all the other Rancor teams that everyone has invested in.
-A totally not-sarcastic Teebo user.
If there is a team that is guaranteed not to be caught by the loop tell me what it is and I will happily use it. I’ve tried to think about it but I haven’t come up with anything. Tenacity doesn’t fix it since Chewie inflicts tenacity down. If it was just one team that’s not a good counter to this, I wouldn’t be complaining. I am not a great theorycrafter and I am open to advice.
It’s hard to “go around” the team in 1st.
Ask your shard.
One of the people who runs it has payout the hour before I do so it is frequently in first when I am trying to go there.
So it makes whole zfinn vs any group to a rancor type loop.
Rancor is no fun. Loops are no fun. TM drain+gain in this massive amount is no fun. Assist train with near kill on hans shoot first are no fun. Make the game to actually being played and not just instant kill fest. This is no shooter in the end.
So ask your shard how they are beating it.
The fact that they can beat it means it's not a problem that needs to be fixed. If the top 20 were all zFinn/C3 because no team could beat them, it needs fixing. That isn't happening.
I'd rather not spend 90 minutes on HAAT twice a week thanks. It's not fun, it's a repetitive grind.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Beating the team is usually not a problem. The problem is that once in a while the RNG is such that I can lose without even getting a turn. I think that is bad game design and such loops ought not happen.
My point is not that this team is some huge problem that requires a nerf. My point is that the statement “the loop is only an issue in the Sith Raid” is not accurate if you consider what I said above to be a bad thing, as I do.
I saw a few zFinn squads in arena and didn't have any trouble with them. What I do see a lot of now is CLS lead with 3PO that beats Revan. I tear through them on offense with no issue, but that is where I see 3PO being used most in arena. People trying the zFinn squad are getting trounced and I've seen them disappearing. As of right now there are zero in my top 50. Plenty of CLS and even a few RJT squads though.
Old raids are basically no fun at all. Mainly due to TM gain/taking away mechanic. It makes the bosses just stand and do nothing at all. There is no fun in this.
Looking forward to mythic raids without tm breaking mechanics and no ns p3 style broken gameplay. Autoplay should always reward less and never allow a full clear as it takes away the point of a game.
By this logic they should take away simming.
For older/easier content, I disagree with your statement completely.
Fair enough. Perhaps my "the loop is only an issue in the Sith Raid" wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that outside the Sith Raid, it's either a much smaller issue (arena) or not a problem at all (HAAT - older raid, should be auto-able).
[/quote]
I've had this happen vs FO teams, palp teams, JTR teams. If they outspeed me, their kit has so much TM gain that they can get the train running and clear me before I can move (if I use the wrong team).
Now I know THIS particular team uses Han who always shoots first. If you want to beat them, use your own han to stun theirs. 50/50 chance you'll go first and invalidate the strategy entirely. Use an auto-taunting tank that you've modded with crazy high tenacity to block the expose train. It won't make han shoot first at it, but itll stop the train after the initial shot. You may need one like zeta bossk or obi that will re-taunt when dispelled, or GK who will re-taunt when someone is crit.
What I'm saying is in PvP there are strategies to use to work around these teams. You're using paper and trying to beat scissors. Go find a rock and bash it.
As for raids, imagine if rancor wasn't autoable. How many of us would bother with it? I know I'd probably send in 1 team on auto and let it die and collect rewards since I dont care much anymore. Same for HAAT. The raids are just too constant a drain on massive amounts of time. I look forward to when MORE phases of HSTR become autoable.
It breaks stuff that doesn't need to be broken, namely the team outside of the Sith Raid.
So you know that Han only gives a 50/50 chance and you’re suggesting that to fix the problem I’m addressing that already happens less than 50% of the time? Sure. High tenacity still doesn’t work because of Chewie, which I already mentioned.
I have no problem with you losing because you are too slow or using the wrong team. I have a problem with there being nothing available to prevent this. There is no rock.