Your assumption that it's easy to align each division just by a multiplier is wrong. Different amount of defense/offense slots means we are each fighting different difficulties, yet the amount of banners contained within a fight is the same. Such an alignment for cosmetic purposes would only bring more problems...and it's inconsequential to the outcomes.
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
While these leaderboards are fair as everyone uses the same scoring rules, it would be interesting to include a percentage of possible points metric to the guild leaderboard. This would allow you to compare how efficient you are compared to others, without having to redo the scoring system that is the same across all divisions (and fair).
Your assumption that it's easy to align each division just by a multiplier is wrong. Different amount of defense/offense slots means we are each fighting different difficulties, yet the amount of banners contained within a fight is the same. Such an alignment for cosmetic purposes would only bring more problems...and it's inconsequential to the outcomes.
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
I don't see how having more or less zones to conquer changes the difficulty. There are more or less zones geared to the number of squads someone has, if you have more zones to conquer it is because you (should) have more squads, so not much difference really, other than being subject to a little more RNG overall.
Your assumption that it's easy to align each division just by a multiplier is wrong. Different amount of defense/offense slots means we are each fighting different difficulties, yet the amount of banners contained within a fight is the same. Such an alignment for cosmetic purposes would only bring more problems...and it's inconsequential to the outcomes.
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
I don't see how having more or less zones to conquer changes the difficulty. There are more or less zones geared to the number of squads someone has, if you have more zones to conquer it is because you (should) have more squads, so not much difference really, other than being subject to a little more RNG overall.
I would be happy to go down to whatever division I wanted. Even though I do have more squads I am pretty confident I would't lose many matches at all. Besides if you are fighting within your division it really DOES NOT matter how many banners someone in a different division gets because you ARE NOT competing against anyone outside of YOUR division. I am pretty sure I could drop to division 3 or 4 and set one team in each zone and still win convincingly.
@Wildwood247 Can u confirm how much you got to set defense in each zone, 90? Also curious if you also get 150 banners for conquering a single squad zone?
All they really needed to do was scale the banners for the number of zones to make the other 2 scoreboards meaningful and fair.
I get 90 for setting defence.
If you get 150 for clearing a single squad zone, then that is unbalanced. I get 180 for clearing a 2 squad zone. There are no single squad zones in div 1.
But this IS balanced and fair since it applies to EVERYONE that is in each Division respectively.
Read the whole thread mate - I’m not the one that needs convinced.
@Wildwood247 Can u confirm how much you got to set defense in each zone, 90? Also curious if you also get 150 banners for conquering a single squad zone?
All they really needed to do was scale the banners for the number of zones to make the other 2 scoreboards meaningful and fair.
I get 90 for setting defence.
If you get 150 for clearing a single squad zone, then that is unbalanced. I get 180 for clearing a 2 squad zone. There are no single squad zones in div 1.
But this IS balanced and fair since it applies to EVERYONE that is in each Division respectively.
Read the whole thread mate - I’m not the one that needs convinced.
@DarjeloSalas I know it isn't you. Mainly just quoted that so MAYBE someone else would read it and get the point all of us are trying to make.
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
This I think I have seen as well, and is a simple tweak to the thresholds, and if they are going to adjust the scoring so that divisions can be properly compared it would have to be adjusted anyway
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
This I think I have seen as well, and is a simple tweak to the thresholds, and if they are going to adjust the scoring so that divisions can be properly compared it would have to be adjusted anyway
There really is no comparison between Divisions. Do you think a division 1 player is anywhere close to a division 6, 7, or 8 player. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!
@DarjeloSalas I know it isn't you. Mainly just quoted that so MAYBE someone else would read it and get the point all of us are trying to make.
You and others are beating your head against a wall. If they are going to put up scoreboards, they should be fair, plain and simple. My opinion on that won't change no matter what someone says about it
Yes, they could remove them, but it would be much more productive and interesting to just make them fair, and attach some small rewards on them
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
This I think I have seen as well, and is a simple tweak to the thresholds, and if they are going to adjust the scoring so that divisions can be properly compared it would have to be adjusted anyway
There really is no comparison between Divisions. Do you think a division 1 player is anywhere close to a division 6, 7, or 8 player. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!
I guess you can't see the forest through the trees, so I am done replying to you. It is a SIMPLE scoring adjustment to make those scoreboards fair.
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
This I think I have seen as well, and is a simple tweak to the thresholds, and if they are going to adjust the scoring so that divisions can be properly compared it would have to be adjusted anyway
There really is no comparison between Divisions. Do you think a division 1 player is anywhere close to a division 6, 7, or 8 player. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!
I guess you can't see the forest through the trees, so I am done replying to you. It is a SIMPLE scoring adjustment to make those scoreboards fair.
I guess you are just used to getting what you want all the time even though you are just complaining about something that has NO real bearing in the game at all. Like I said before EVERYONE on those leader boards get EXACTLY the same rewards...NOTHING!!! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL!!!!!
I also get 180 for clearing a 2 squad zone, so I guess all Divisions have the same scoring which makes zero sense. Maybe they will reconsider it for the sake of the other 2 scoreboards, otherwise there is no point in having them what-so-ever
Makes zero sense because you are neglecting the reason for divisions and believe the guild leaderboard is worth fighting for. Why is guild lb important to you?
While I agree that the division leaderboards are the important ones and the guild leaderboards are not, there is something called "friendly competition" and doing well matters to some people, whether it is actually graded or not. No harm in friendly inter-guild competition.
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
This I think I have seen as well, and is a simple tweak to the thresholds, and if they are going to adjust the scoring so that divisions can be properly compared it would have to be adjusted anyway
I understand that you think it's trivial to adjust them to align...but it isn't. If you still believe it is, put down the math on how that would be done.
There is already an option to sort the Guild scoreboard by Division. "Problem" solved.
Nah, solves nothing. You can't be compared to others in others divisions fairly, where as a simple scoring adjustment could make that happen
That's because: you can't be compared to other division fairly...at all, too many moving parts in between divisions. And there's no need to compare either. Completely different situations with different needs and outcomes.
That's because: you can't be compared to other division fairly...at all, too many moving parts in between divisions. And there's no need to compare either. Completely different situations with different needs and outcomes.
Again I don't agree with that at all, or I wouldn't have started the thread.
The math really is simple hardly a need to spell it out.
There is already an option to sort the Guild scoreboard by Division. "Problem" solved.
Nah, solves nothing. You can't be compared to others in other divisions fairly, where as a simple scoring adjustment could make that happen.
You mentioned beating heads against a wall. This is what you are doing.
You’re asking for something nobody else wants, for reasons nobody else can fathom.
The scoring IS already adjusted to factor in the difference in squad numbers. You in div6 need to score less than me in div1 to promote and earn higher rewards. But that’s fair because you earn less on setting defence and have less opportunity to earn on attack.
If you’re in a guild with div1/Div2 players whilst you’re in div6, asking the devs to completely rejig the GAC scoring just so you can get your ruler out to artificially measure up is a frivolous request. Asking for prizes, of any nature, to boot is frankly ludicrous.
Should they adjust the points on a TB, so those with much bigger GPs get their points scaled down to be closer to the smaller GPs? Should they do that in raids too?
That's because: you can't be compared to other division fairly...at all, too many moving parts in between divisions. And there's no need to compare either. Completely different situations with different needs and outcomes.
Again I don't agree with that at all, or I wouldn't have started the thread.
The math really is simple hardly a need to spell it out.
Except the math is in no way simple, because it would involve multiplying your score to get to a normalized score, which would remove the nuance of the scoring system. This would be extremely unfair and have different division playing by different rules. If it would be so simple, please explain for us dense folks (also include what division would be your baseline for the "correct" size).
As I suggested before, the best way I could see would be to present a percentage of available points scored, which would allow you to compare efficiency across divisions.
What Jayjonbeach wants is a simple and effective method to prove how good he is at GAC compared to people who have larger rosters. Basically he wants his smaller roster with a lower numbers of probably high gear teams to get a better score that his guild mates to prove he is the PvP god among his peers.
I want to know why myself, as a Div 1 player with almost 5m GP (sadly roster bloat) have to earn less points per defense and battle while requiring more teams should earn less banners to make lower division "PvP gods" feel better about their banners when they have to earn less for promotion to higher leagues.
Maybe just don't look at those scoreboards if they cause you so much grief?
I like to see how my guild is doing - specifically what league they're up to.
I'd be happy if we got to set 8 teams though (I'm div 3 or 4, whatever <3M GP is), then the points would align more across the upper divisions, but importantly I could use some of my G7-9 toons finally!
For those who wanted to see some simple math. Starting with the poll done in this thread, you come up with the following current system: (they don't mention division 10 and I don't know how many teams they set)
Division 9-7: 4 teams
Division 6-5: 5 teams
Division 4-3: 6 teams
Division 2-1: 8 teams
Currently all divisions score 90 for setting a defensive squad, and get 150 for conquering a single squad zone and 180 for conquering a double. This means that currently, not counting squad survival points etc, the following points are possible:
Division 9-7: 360 Def + 600 Off = 960
Division 6-5: 450 Def + 630 Off = 1080
Division 4-3: 540 Def + 660 Off = 1200
Division 2-1: 720 Def + 720 Off = 1440
With this scoring, there is no fair way to compare divisions, yet they are doing that on 2 scoreboards.
=========================================
The math to fix this is dead simple (and there are many different ways you could do it), seriously took me like 3 mins to put it together:
Division 9-7: Set 4 Def @ 180 each + 180 each for conquering = 1440
Division 6-5: Set 5 Def @ 144 each + 170 x 3 for single zones + 210 for one double zone = 1440
Division 4-3: Set 6 Def @ 120 each + 160 x 2 for single zones + 200 x 2 for 2 double zones = 1440
Division 2-1: Set 8 Def @ 90 each + 180 each for 4 double zones = 1440
Done.
The amount needed to promote to higher league could now be standardized too, or not, depending on what is thought to be fair. To me, with the proposed scoring I posted, everyone has the same chance to get the same score, so why not have all the divisions have the same threshold for league promotion
This is why me and others thought you don't get the math that goes into it. Thanks for affirmation.
lol, ok, just pop in and say it doesn't work but dont explain why. Sure, sparky. We believe you
It works fine I don't see any issue
Check what contributes into your final banners, they are not merely static scores of the zones. Zones themselves aren't equally distributed for all divisions either. Div 1-2 has 4 2 team zones, div 3-4 has an odd one, if we really needed to make a comparison how does this one team zone has the same worth as a two team zone? Now that divisions get matched on the same terms within the same division, it doesn't matter.
You seem to forget match banners which doesn't bring the same amount between divisions either, that's the main difficulty of the normalisation task. Fyi 1912 is the max possible banner count for div1-2.
I am not trying to put down a math for you, because I don't agree with your idea that banner counts need to normalised. And if there was, it's not as simple as your math failed to showcase as well.
For those who wanted to see some simple math. Starting with the poll done in this thread, you come up with the following current system: (they don't mention division 10 and I don't know how many teams they set)
Division 9-7: 4 teams
Division 6-5: 5 teams
Division 4-3: 6 teams
Division 2-1: 8 teams
Currently all divisions score 90 for setting a defensive squad, and get 150 for conquering a single squad zone and 180 for conquering a double. This means that currently, not counting squad survival points etc, the following points are possible:
Division 9-7: 360 Def + 600 Off = 960
Division 6-5: 450 Def + 630 Off = 1080
Division 4-3: 540 Def + 660 Off = 1200
Division 2-1: 720 Def + 720 Off = 1440
With this scoring, there is no fair way to compare divisions, yet they are doing that on 2 scoreboards.
=========================================
The math to fix this is dead simple (and there are many different ways you could do it), seriously took me like 3 mins to put it together:
Division 9-7: Set 4 Def @ 180 each + 180 each for conquering = 1440
Division 6-5: Set 5 Def @ 144 each + 170 x 3 for single zones + 210 for one double zone = 1440
Division 4-3: Set 6 Def @ 120 each + 160 x 2 for single zones + 200 x 2 for 2 double zones = 1440
Division 2-1: Set 8 Def @ 90 each + 180 each for 4 double zones = 1440
Done.
The amount needed to promote to higher league could now be standardized too, or not, depending on what is thought to be fair. To me, with the proposed scoring I posted, everyone has the same chance to get the same score, so why not have all the divisions have the same threshold for league promotion
You completely forgot match performance banners, which would still put higher divisions at more points (they get 8 battles vs 4). Only solution to that is having different divisions playing by different rules (which is unfair) and having to enact 4 different scoring systems, code for them, and somehow get the entire player base to actually read an announcement about how their scoring system changes drastically as they increase GP just so that a meaningless guild leaderboard can be "fair". All your proposal does is make the actual scoring system unfair.
Replies
On the outcome end though unfairness exists as higher divisions can afford much less losses to reach kyber for example. It's tipped in favor of lower divisions.
I don't see how having more or less zones to conquer changes the difficulty. There are more or less zones geared to the number of squads someone has, if you have more zones to conquer it is because you (should) have more squads, so not much difference really, other than being subject to a little more RNG overall.
I would be happy to go down to whatever division I wanted. Even though I do have more squads I am pretty confident I would't lose many matches at all. Besides if you are fighting within your division it really DOES NOT matter how many banners someone in a different division gets because you ARE NOT competing against anyone outside of YOUR division. I am pretty sure I could drop to division 3 or 4 and set one team in each zone and still win convincingly.
@DarjeloSalas I know it isn't you. Mainly just quoted that so MAYBE someone else would read it and get the point all of us are trying to make.
This I think I have seen as well, and is a simple tweak to the thresholds, and if they are going to adjust the scoring so that divisions can be properly compared it would have to be adjusted anyway
There really is no comparison between Divisions. Do you think a division 1 player is anywhere close to a division 6, 7, or 8 player. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!
You and others are beating your head against a wall. If they are going to put up scoreboards, they should be fair, plain and simple. My opinion on that won't change no matter what someone says about it
Yes, they could remove them, but it would be much more productive and interesting to just make them fair, and attach some small rewards on them
I guess you can't see the forest through the trees, so I am done replying to you. It is a SIMPLE scoring adjustment to make those scoreboards fair.
I guess you are just used to getting what you want all the time even though you are just complaining about something that has NO real bearing in the game at all. Like I said before EVERYONE on those leader boards get EXACTLY the same rewards...NOTHING!!! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL!!!!!
While I agree that the division leaderboards are the important ones and the guild leaderboards are not, there is something called "friendly competition" and doing well matters to some people, whether it is actually graded or not. No harm in friendly inter-guild competition.
Nah, solves nothing. You can't be compared to others in other divisions fairly, where as a simple scoring adjustment could make that happen.
I understand that you think it's trivial to adjust them to align...but it isn't. If you still believe it is, put down the math on how that would be done.
That's because: you can't be compared to other division fairly...at all, too many moving parts in between divisions. And there's no need to compare either. Completely different situations with different needs and outcomes.
Again I don't agree with that at all, or I wouldn't have started the thread.
The math really is simple hardly a need to spell it out.
You’re asking for something nobody else wants, for reasons nobody else can fathom.
The scoring IS already adjusted to factor in the difference in squad numbers. You in div6 need to score less than me in div1 to promote and earn higher rewards. But that’s fair because you earn less on setting defence and have less opportunity to earn on attack.
If you’re in a guild with div1/Div2 players whilst you’re in div6, asking the devs to completely rejig the GAC scoring just so you can get your ruler out to artificially measure up is a frivolous request. Asking for prizes, of any nature, to boot is frankly ludicrous.
Should they adjust the points on a TB, so those with much bigger GPs get their points scaled down to be closer to the smaller GPs? Should they do that in raids too?
Except the math is in no way simple, because it would involve multiplying your score to get to a normalized score, which would remove the nuance of the scoring system. This would be extremely unfair and have different division playing by different rules. If it would be so simple, please explain for us dense folks (also include what division would be your baseline for the "correct" size).
As I suggested before, the best way I could see would be to present a percentage of available points scored, which would allow you to compare efficiency across divisions.
I want to know why myself, as a Div 1 player with almost 5m GP (sadly roster bloat) have to earn less points per defense and battle while requiring more teams should earn less banners to make lower division "PvP gods" feel better about their banners when they have to earn less for promotion to higher leagues.
I like to see how my guild is doing - specifically what league they're up to.
I'd be happy if we got to set 8 teams though (I'm div 3 or 4, whatever <3M GP is), then the points would align more across the upper divisions, but importantly I could use some of my G7-9 toons finally!
https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/cc05gm/gac_number_of_teams_on_defense_explained_probably/
Division 9-7: 4 teams
Division 6-5: 5 teams
Division 4-3: 6 teams
Division 2-1: 8 teams
Currently all divisions score 90 for setting a defensive squad, and get 150 for conquering a single squad zone and 180 for conquering a double. This means that currently, not counting squad survival points etc, the following points are possible:
Division 9-7: 360 Def + 600 Off = 960
Division 6-5: 450 Def + 630 Off = 1080
Division 4-3: 540 Def + 660 Off = 1200
Division 2-1: 720 Def + 720 Off = 1440
With this scoring, there is no fair way to compare divisions, yet they are doing that on 2 scoreboards.
=========================================
The math to fix this is dead simple (and there are many different ways you could do it), seriously took me like 3 mins to put it together:
Division 9-7: Set 4 Def @ 180 each + 180 each for conquering = 1440
Division 6-5: Set 5 Def @ 144 each + 170 x 3 for single zones + 210 for one double zone = 1440
Division 4-3: Set 6 Def @ 120 each + 160 x 2 for single zones + 200 x 2 for 2 double zones = 1440
Division 2-1: Set 8 Def @ 90 each + 180 each for 4 double zones = 1440
Done.
The amount needed to promote to higher league could now be standardized too, or not, depending on what is thought to be fair. To me, with the proposed scoring I posted, everyone has the same chance to get the same score, so why not have all the divisions have the same threshold for league promotion
lol, ok, just pop in and say it doesn't work but dont explain why. Sure, sparky. We believe you
It works fine I don't see any issue
Which is what the rest of us think about the guild / ally leaderboard
Check what contributes into your final banners, they are not merely static scores of the zones. Zones themselves aren't equally distributed for all divisions either. Div 1-2 has 4 2 team zones, div 3-4 has an odd one, if we really needed to make a comparison how does this one team zone has the same worth as a two team zone? Now that divisions get matched on the same terms within the same division, it doesn't matter.
You seem to forget match banners which doesn't bring the same amount between divisions either, that's the main difficulty of the normalisation task. Fyi 1912 is the max possible banner count for div1-2.
I am not trying to put down a math for you, because I don't agree with your idea that banner counts need to normalised. And if there was, it's not as simple as your math failed to showcase as well.
You completely forgot match performance banners, which would still put higher divisions at more points (they get 8 battles vs 4). Only solution to that is having different divisions playing by different rules (which is unfair) and having to enact 4 different scoring systems, code for them, and somehow get the entire player base to actually read an announcement about how their scoring system changes drastically as they increase GP just so that a meaningless guild leaderboard can be "fair". All your proposal does is make the actual scoring system unfair.
2 player both have perfect runs and win each battle with the same scores (not realistic but works as an example).
How is it fair if they are represented on any leader board with the same score when player 1 beat 8 teams and player 2 beat 4 teams?
There is a lot of talk of fair, but I dont see how that is fair to player 1, or an even comparison for bragging rights.