SEE is Too Weak - - suggestions

dgree
382 posts Member
edited October 2020
I know "GL nerf/buff" meta topic discussions and clickbaity youtube titles are incredibly common, and people have different ideas of what's fair or what teams should be able to beat which other teams. I hope that this a constructive post that shows appreciation for the cool things in SEE's kit, while addressing issues as well that people may not notice (Sith sometimes get a lot of attention due to DR, but although DR squads are capable on offense of defeating GLs, and that includes SLKR as well as JML--I want to focus here on SEE, not DR).

SEE is weak, without much "unlimited power" in common scenarios due to his kit. It's not just "rock paper scissors.". SLKR battles are a strong example of it (not that SLKR can beat SEE, but that SEE cannot beat a normal SLKR squad). I want to clarify why SEE is too weak since a lot of people misunderstand some issues, and I have a suggestion for each problem. That's not to say all of them must be fixed, and it's the combination of issues that makes SEE weak--he's unable to get to ultimate in prevalent circumstances, and he won't be very strong even if he does.

tldr:
  • SEE's power gains and damage multipliers, including post-ultimate, are relatively low in comparison to SLKR's massive damage and stats gains with or without ultimate
  • SEE doesn't help his squad much, and his squad doesn't really help him much (Sith included)
  • SEE has severe issues getting to ultimate in the first place due to a couple issues with Linked and reliance upon it for survival and ultimate charge


1. Damage

SEE's weak power growth means that even post-ultimate, he will not be that strong. Not only is SEE's power growth nothing like SLKR's massive HP and stat growth, but it's actually just weak. A lot of people may over- or underestimate the effect of mastery increases, but it should be noted that the mastery increase will basically just provide SEE with modest boosts of offense (no Crit Damage like agi attacker mastery SLKR, but ok, not everyone can be an agi attacker). When or if SEE hits ultimate, the offense provided by his mastery will be doubled. But how much offense is this?

In comparison, one can see videos of, by the time the battle is towards its end, SLKR hitting SEE just with basic for 200k+ damage. If SEE really has such great power, according to his theme, he should be able to compete with this--but he can't. SEE has locked shock if he gets to ultimate, but SLKR has those superior mastery stat boost), periodic immortality, and big crit damage. Also, it's not just about damage but damage multipliers--SLKR's basic alone (x2 hit) has close to triple the damage multipliers of SEE's post-ultimate basic damage multiplier.

In other words, just looking at multipliers and not relative offense gains, it's not that SEE has amazing damage vs deceived Jedi (perhaps those multipliers are high)--it's that he has more normal damage vs deceived Jedi, and weak attacks against everyone else. (Reminder that Palpatine deceived both LS and DS in the prequel and sequel trilogies).

The solution for that would be pretty straightforward--better stat/damage gains and higher damage multipliers post-ultimate.

There are two strengths in SEE's ultimate:
a) Shock on ultimate basic-- while SEE can't use Linked to prevent SLKR crits, SLKR is crit immune through the battle until advantage is both prevented and dispelled. In other words, ultimate SEE's locked shock can't be cleansed by SLKR AOE, and will prevent further applications of Advantage after it wears off. But even if SEE gets to ultimate, and then 2 turns later gets shocked on SLKR, SLKR can still become immortal for 3 turns, all the while becoming more and more powerful. So this is good, but it's not saving the day (it also gets rid of SEE's speed up).

b) Double-annihilate: cool ability, but as one player pointed out elsewhere does 2 annihilates in about the same time Darth Nihilus can do so. It doesn't annihilate GLs, of course. Also, it can only be used the turn after ultimate usage (SEE doesn't attack on the turn he uses ultimate). And the cooldown is crazy long after it's used if there's an enemy GL and another enemy or two left, so it's unlikely that if SEE survives to use this a 2nd time (assuming he even survives for a first use) .

But this all relies on SEE getting to ultimate and being strong enough after the ultimate to take advantage of this. Due to his low damage and the following issues, that often has basically no chance of happening.


2. Faction synergy and leadership

If SEE's squad doesn't get much of a boost from his leadership, it's very easy for SLKR to kill his squad before he has a chance of hitting ultimate. SEE's squad doesn't get much survivability or damage. Moreover, SLKR disables one ally with permastun deathstab at the beginning of battle--there isn't room in the remaining 4 spots for someone like SEE who doesn't contribute. The SE/Vader counters to other GLs shows that rather than SEE boosting his faction and SEE being strong vs GLs, it's the other way around--he often makes existing Sith/Empire squads worse and his presence is what makes Sith/Empire unable to counter a double-tank SLKR squad. The one video of a prominent Sith discord member beating SLKR with SEE shows only a single-tank SLKR squad, and is a display of a Vader counter squad that is weaker due to using SEE instead of someone else. If you understand the mechanics of these counter squads (as the increasingly depressing Sith discord does), this becomes clear fairly quickly.

Overall, SEE has relatively low faction synergy, especially compared to SLKR's Crit Damage boost plus perma-advantage (CD up, permataunt, crit immunity, huge TM boosts, and blocking of enemy TM gain) that gives even guys like Malak and Thrawn better synergy with SLKR than with SEE. Moreover, most Sith have HP-based kits, while SEE's special just regenerates protection. Malak doesn't even have protection, and the Deceived and Linked removal of crits and counters protects enemies from being feared (and from feeding SEE's stats/ultimate).

Again, the issue here is understanding how mastery works. The 5% mastery gain that Sith allies gradually get isn't really going to help the battle that much when they're all getting butchered. The health/prot recovery is nice, but without the sort of damage and tankiness that enemy FO get, it's a small benefit.

One solution, assuming SEE's squad is intended to be weak, is for surviving allies to gain power from defeated allies--either an independent amount, or stats from the defeated allies. A bonus is that this would provide a purpose for Sith like Sid who are basically paperweights (he has high HP but super low damage). If SEE's squad isn't supposed to be weak, then there's something missing here.


3. Ultimate charge and Linked

This one's more obvious: SEE can't use Linked if there aren't two enemies. That's fine, but there should be an alternative mechanic of gaining charge--perhaps charge from ally deaths, and/or some mechanic for only one surviving enemy.

Another issue with Linked is that SEE is forced to put Linked on a tank. After SEE is forced to kill that tank, Linked is gone. He gets a taunt-ignore bonus turn after the first Linked usage, but perhaps he should get one at the beginning where he can only apply Linked. Maybe this is also intentional, but combined with all of the other issues is pretty rough for SEE. It's already tough for SEE to survive to ultimate, especially if the Linked disappears--Linked is relied upon to negate linked enemy crits (except from enemy GLs), and to provide SEE with more protection.


Post edited by dgree on

Replies

  • LOL, I was scrolling through the forum to see what people might be saying about GL's to open this thread. I didn't read any of what you said. I didn't want to waste 10 minutes of my life.

    Keep complaining though, because if the new GL's are anything like the last, light side was better when they first dropped and after enough people complained about SLKR they buffed the crap out of him and Rey doesn't hold a candle.

    Don't expect EA to care about your opinions unless you're a whale, and you can get enough other whales to agree and complain together.
  • Dramgon wrote: »
    LOL, I was scrolling through the forum to see what people might be saying about GL's to open this thread. I didn't read any of what you said. I didn't want to waste 10 minutes of my life.

    Keep complaining though, because if the new GL's are anything like the last, light side was better when they first dropped and after enough people complained about SLKR they buffed the crap out of him and Rey doesn't hold a candle.

    Don't expect EA to care about your opinions unless you're a whale, and you can get enough other whales to agree and complain together.

    Someones still mad that they went for Rey over Kylo xd
  • I'll start by saying I have not seen enough to judge whether papa palps needs changes.

    However a few touch ups could eliminate synergy issues with other sith or buff him if they decide to do so.

    1. Making allies also regain health would make the team work better with tanks like malak. Maybe something similar to EP's leadership that heals them when they land debuffs.

    2. The anti crit linked mechanics could be reworked to just nerf the damage of the attack (maybe lower linked characters offense) and still let them crit. That way it works with characters like malak.

    3. Make the can't revive only apply to the enemy team. Not sure why they would make it apply to your own team anyway.

    4. Make the link mechanic insta kill a character if there is no other target to link to. (Solves the SLKR solo if they want to solve that. It may be intended).

    5. Make the unlimited power instakill work on GLs too. (This would eliminate the complaining that his dmg isn't comparable to SLKR. But that also depends on intentions.)
  • Kyno
    27450 posts Moderator
    I'll start by saying I have not seen enough to judge whether papa palps needs changes.

    However a few touch ups could eliminate synergy issues with other sith or buff him if they decide to do so.

    1. Making allies also regain health would make the team work better with tanks like malak. Maybe something similar to EP's leadership that heals them when they land debuffs.

    2. The anti crit linked mechanics could be reworked to just nerf the damage of the attack (maybe lower linked characters offense) and still let them crit. That way it works with characters like malak.

    3. Make the can't revive only apply to the enemy team. Not sure why they would make it apply to your own team anyway.

    4. Make the link mechanic insta kill a character if there is no other target to link to. (Solves the SLKR solo if they want to solve that. It may be intended).

    5. Make the unlimited power instakill work on GLs too. (This would eliminate the complaining that his dmg isn't comparable to SLKR. But that also depends on intentions.)

    1 an 2 - there is a chance they didn't want too much synergy between those 2.

    3 - yeah, it is an odd one.

    4 - GLs cannot be insta killed, so that doesnt' do anything about SLKR

    5 - that would solve #4, but that may make him a little too OP, basically dont worry about anything or anyone else on the team. get SEE to ultimate and game over. not sure thats what they want.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    I'll start by saying I have not seen enough to judge whether papa palps needs changes.

    However a few touch ups could eliminate synergy issues with other sith or buff him if they decide to do so.

    1. Making allies also regain health would make the team work better with tanks like malak. Maybe something similar to EP's leadership that heals them when they land debuffs.

    2. The anti crit linked mechanics could be reworked to just nerf the damage of the attack (maybe lower linked characters offense) and still let them crit. That way it works with characters like malak.
    These are both good points.

    1) People speculated early on that SEE's lead, like most Sith leads, would involve debuffs or potency. But there's no leadership-based benefit to that here. It's more like a Sidious lead than EP, Vader or Traya.

    2) That would result in more synergy with Malak, but would allow SLKR to reach ultimate faster and might result in the sith all getting blown up at once. However:
    a) it's not clear lobster is a better linked choice than SLKR, and linked doesn't reduce his crits or damage
    b) it's not clear how much minor tweaks to SLKR reaching his ult matters since it's just a bloodbath on the sith side of the battle. New GLs vs old GLs don't seem like necessarily an ultimate race since the ultimates function differently.
  • Agreed, SEE is hot garb. @CG_Doja_Fett did you see this post? Very well thought out...
  • I agree. SEE needs a massive Buff.

    He is an absolute garbage fire of a character... And now it looks like Imps destroy him too, as if it wasn't bad enough...
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    I think "imperial troopers destroy SEE" can be a little overstated. If SEE's squad contains a team that can beat troopers, then troopers won't beat SEE. As in most cases, SEE's success depends on his squad--that he doesn't really help and may even sabotage--rather than him or his ultimate.

    (A fast DR and Malak on defense, no other tanks, is a 2 man team that will stop troopers, with or without SEE).
  • dgree wrote: »
    I think "imperial troopers destroy SEE" can be a little overstated. If SEE's squad contains a team that can beat troopers, then troopers won't beat SEE. As in most cases, SEE's success depends on his squad--that he doesn't really help and may even sabotage--rather than him or his ultimate.

    (A fast DR and Malak on defense, no other tanks, is a 2 man team that will stop troopers, with or without SEE).

    thats the problem. You can replace SEE with ANY OTHER SITH LEAD and get literally 10x better results most of the time.

    I have his ult now... It doesn't help at all. He loses all survival when he uses it and while yes.. he kills 2 linked characters... the ai ALWAYS LINKS enemy GLs... which does absolutely nothing to them.

    I have vids and screenshots from my shard mates with them ripping apart SEE with little effort.

    Even full resistance Rey lead with heros holdo and RJT. full 5 man standing almost full prot.

    His niche usefulness on offense to kill 1 or 2 teams is just plain bad.

    He's not a GL... I'd classify him as more of a legendary toon... thrawn is more useful then see. EP is 10x a better lead.
    Any other sith comes with useful debuffs
  • Moving this here for traction since it got buried in general.

    So here is my fixes for SEE kit. All numbers (and wording as I am not a professional word smith) CAN BE TWEAKED and just getting the ideas out there to help with his character identity and to make him worthy of the title "Galactic Legend".

    The changes focus on TEAM survival along with stacking mastery over time along with debuffs and detrimental effects added into deceive.

    Changes will be italicized for additional effects/ wording changes or strike through for removals


    Basic: (ZETA) Deception

    FINAL TEXT: Deal Special damage to target enemy. If that enemy wasn't Deceived, they become Deceived for 2 turns, increased to 3 turns if they are a Jedi. Deceived can't be copied, dispelled, resisted, and affects any character that is "immune to debuffs". Sith Eternal Emperor gains Speed Up for 2 turns. This ability can't be countered. Rank 1 speed up moved into zeta and adds +50% more damage in its place.

    Deceived: Can't target Sith Eternal Emperor during their turn if another Sith enemy is active; when an ability is used, Sith Eternal Emperor gains 2% Ultimate Charge


    Special 1: (ZETA) So Be It, Jedi (Cooldown 3)

    FINAL TEXT: Deal Special damage to target enemy and call all other Dark Side allies to assist, dealing 10% more damage for each Deceived enemy. Dark Side allies recover 25% Protection and 25% Health. Sith Allies have all their debuffs removed.. Jedi enemies defeated this turn can't be revived.


    Special 2: (ZETA) Unraveled Destiny (Cooldown 6)

    FINAL TEXT: Dark Side allies gain Retribution, Offense Up, Critical Damage up for 3 turns, and Dark Side Tank allies gain Taunt and Defense Up for 2 turns. Remove Linked from all enemies. Then, target enemy becomes Linked until a Linked enemy is defeated or until the end of encounter. Sith Eternal Emperor gains the granted ability Entwined Fate and takes a bonus turn.
    During this bonus turn, Sith Eternal Emperor may only use Entwined Fate, can't be ability blocked, ignores taunt effects, and may not target a Linked character.

    Linked: This character is Linked

    Entwined Fate: Target enemy becomes Linked. This ability is removed and can't be used again until Unraveled Destiny is used.

    If there is only a single enemy target alive Inflict Shattered Link on target enemy for 2 turns. Shattered Link: Target suffers -50% defense, -25% speed, -25% offense, can't gain turn meter or attack out of turn. Enemies with Shattered Link also suffer the same effects as normal link in regards to protection. These effects do not stack with defense down, offense down, speed down, or daze.


    Leader: (ZETA) Sith Eternal

    FINAL TEXT: Dark Side allies have +25% Mastery, +30% Potency, and +20 Speed, 50% Heath Steal, 25% Defense penetration, 25% Defense, doubled for Sith allies.
    Whenever a Deceived or Linked enemy uses an ability, Sith Eternal Emperor gains 10% Mastery (stacking) until the end of encounter and other Sith allies gain half that amount. Whenever a Linked enemy uses an ability, Sith Eternal Emperor gains 8% Ultimate Charge.

    Whenever a Sith ally gains max health or % max health they also gain that much protection or % max protection. When a Sith ally is defeated dispel all debuffs on other Sith allies, grant them 50% TM, and 50% of the defeated Sith ally max health.
    Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, dispel all debuffs on other Sith allies and they recover 100% Health and Protection. Sith allies can't be revived, and they ignore defense when targeting a Jedi enemy.


    Unique 1: (ZETA) Sow Discord

    FINAL TEXT: Sith Eternal Emperor is immune to taunt effects and Turn Meter reduction. Deceived enemies can't counter attack, do 25% less damage with out of turn attacks, have -50% defense (effects don't stack with other reduction effects), and -25% evasion. and Deceived Rebel and Jedi enemies can't gain bonus Turn Meter.
    At the start of Sith Eternal Emperor's turn, if no enemies are Deceived, the weakest Light Side enemy becomes Deceived for 2 turns. Whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability, their weakest ally without Deceived becomes Deceived for the max duration Sith Eternal Emperor could inflict on them (limit once per turn), and Sith Eternal Emperor and Sith allies recovers 2% Health and Protection. Deceived can't be copied, dispelled, or resisted.
    At the start of each Linked enemy's turn, Linked enemies lose 20% Max Protection, quadrupled for Jedi, and Sith Eternal Emperor gains 25% of the amount lost. If the Linked target has Protection Up Sith Eternal Emperor deals 20% of the current Protection up as true damage to the target and gains 25% of the damage dealt as protection. Linked raid bosses instead gain Expose for 2 turns, which can't be resisted.

    Linked enemies can't critically hit, and damage they deal is decreased by 25% (excludes Galactic Legends).


    Unique 2: (ZETA) Galactic Legend

    FINAL TEXT: This unit takes reduced damage from percent Health damage effects and massive damage effects. They take massive damage from destroy effects (excludes raid bosses) and are immune to stun effects.
    This unit has +10% Max Health and Max Protection per Relic Amplifier level, and damage they receive is decreased by 30%.


    Ultimate: I Am All The Sith (Must charge to 100% before use)

    FINAL TEXT: Sith Eternal Emperor gains 2% Ultimate Charge whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability. If Sith Eternal Emperor is the leader, he also gains 8% Ultimate Charge whenever a Linked enemy uses an ability.
    Sith Eternal Emperor gains Mastery equal to his current Mastery until the end of battle and transforms into Sith Eternal Emperor (Restored). If he is the leader, all other Dark Side allies gain Mastery equal to their current Mastery until the end of battle. Remove Deceived from all Deceived enemies and inflict Deceived until the end of encounter on those enemies, which can't be copied, dispelled, or resisted.
    When Sith Eternal Emperor transforms, he loses the abilities Deception and So Be It, Jedi and gains two new abilities.

    [Basic] Revitalized Shock:
    Deal Special damage to target enemy and inflict Shock for 2 turns, which can't be copied or dispelled. This attack deals 150% more damage to Deceived Light Side enemies. If the target was already Deceived, reduce the cooldown of Power! Unlimited Power! by 1 for each Deceived enemy. This attack can't be evaded or countered. Sith Eternal Emperor gains Speed Up for 2 turns.


    [Special] Power! Unlimited Power!: (Cooldown 20)

    Instantly defeat Linked enemies and deal Special damage to all enemies. Then, dispel all buffs on Deceived enemies and deal Special damage to them. Enemies defeated by this ability can't be revived. This attack can't be evaded or countered.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    The increased basic damage and similar leadership bonuses are the sorts of thing that SEE desperately needs.

    Not sure what's going on exactly with the "shattered link", but there definitely is an immense weakness in SEE's ultimate charge, deceived, and ultimate special mechanics if he's up against only one unit (which doesn't really make any sense, because he can't survive just sitting there against an army unless he's meant to be a counter to Phoenix or something).
  • shattered link acts mainly like normal link but with some extra side effects. so it would still help hit ult charge in the end
  • Shiryu wrote: »
    shattered link acts mainly like normal link but with some extra side effects. so it would still help hit ult charge in the end

    I like the idea of shattered link to prevent the kylo solo. But I think adding the shattered link if a linked enemy is killed would be good if you added a shattered link to the remaining one.

  • Shiryu wrote: »
    shattered link acts mainly like normal link but with some extra side effects. so it would still help hit ult charge in the end

    I like the idea of shattered link to prevent the kylo solo. But I think adding the shattered link if a linked enemy is killed would be good if you added a shattered link to the remaining one.

    thats another good idea. The AI tends to kill one of the linked targets first due to how target selection works. Ai tends to target the weakest enemy most the time (except for situations where some toons are hard coded to be attacked first. Ie JKR ALWAYS marking treya or SlKR auto targeting fives)

    So many good ideas have been thrown around. Plenty of ways to fix SEE.

    The devs just don't care. Our new community hype guy hasn't said anything except a generic "they're keeping an eye on it."
    to which I call ****. This is CG after all. The company that hates its players. Prove me wrong Doja. Give us info
  • It takes time. We can throw around ideas all day but they actually have to look at the data to see if they want to do anything. Then implement and test a fix if needed
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    I'm mainly just getting curious about why the Sith keep getting so neglected. The Vader rework was nice although it wasn't a GL, and SE were great, even though their synergy is limited to Sith Empire rather than Sith. But since Sith got Malak, Jedi got GAS, JKL, and JML (who crushes SLKR), on top of already having great toons like Hoda and JKR.

    And this is after a Clone Wars era focus where the mastermind behind both sides was Sidious, who is required to be R7 here but was totally neglected throughout that focus.

    And the Sith fleet that started with the first Galactic Chase mostly became platoon fodder.

    I realize not everyone likes Sith and plenty of people even just want to beat them, but Sith are obviously a major part of Star Wars and it really feels like it's time for the Sith faction to get some TLC.
  • dgree wrote: »
    I'm mainly just getting curious about why the Sith keep getting so neglected. The Vader rework was nice although it wasn't a GL, and SE were great, even though their synergy is limited to Sith Empire rather than Sith. But since Sith got Malak, Jedi got GAS, JKL, and JML (who crushes SLKR), on top of already having great toons like Hoda and JKR.

    And this is after a Clone Wars era focus where the mastermind behind both sides was Sidious, who is required to be R7 here but was totally neglected throughout that focus.

    And the Sith fleet that started with the first Galactic Chase mostly became platoon fodder.

    I realize not everyone likes Sith and plenty of people even just want to beat them, but Sith are obviously a major part of Star Wars and it really feels like it's time for the Sith faction to get some TLC.

    Wait until February. ;)
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    I'm mainly just getting curious about why the Sith keep getting so neglected. The Vader rework was nice although it wasn't a GL, and SE were great, even though their synergy is limited to Sith Empire rather than Sith. But since Sith got Malak, Jedi got GAS, JKL, and JML (who crushes SLKR), on top of already having great toons like Hoda and JKR.

    And this is after a Clone Wars era focus where the mastermind behind both sides was Sidious, who is required to be R7 here but was totally neglected throughout that focus.

    And the Sith fleet that started with the first Galactic Chase mostly became platoon fodder.

    I realize not everyone likes Sith and plenty of people even just want to beat them, but Sith are obviously a major part of Star Wars and it really feels like it's time for the Sith faction to get some TLC.

    Wait until February. ;)

    You mean August 2035
  • dgree wrote: »
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!


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