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If I'm not mistaken, the squish doesn't change your position in the ladder. If you were the 2500th player before the squish, you're still the 2500th player after the squish.
that is correct. But something happens anyway. If they said place 1-8000 is always Kyber 1 you are right. Then it doesn't matter. But they say under 3610 banner you go Kyber 1.
With a skill of 3725 I was rank 8361 after season 1 (new GAC). Then came the first squish and the adjustment of the range from 3540 to 3610. At the end of the 2nd season I was rank 4688 with a skill of 3761. Now I have I have a skill of 3725 again and am ranked 4204. So less skill but higher rank. There is only one difference. At rank 8361 you have different opponents than at rank 4204. If I do a 6-6 this season and again next season. And should there be a skill squish every season as high as the first two, I'm Kyber 2 in Season 5. Currently about 10% of the Kyber players are in Kyber 1. If the squishes are only made until the 10% has been reached, everything is fine. Then there will be no more big squish. But if I get 71-77 points deducted every season, I'm bound to be relegated. A few before me got it even though they won sigar more often than they lost. And others will get it later. In a year maybe there would only be 500 players left in Kyber 1 ;-)
Lost in all of this is just how many crystals CG has taken off of the table by removing the old squad arena system. Brilliantly, they did this by creating a relatively permanent caste system within the player base. Well done. Deplorable, but well done.
Lost in all of this is just how many crystals CG has taken off of the table by removing the old squad arena system. Brilliantly, they did this by creating a relatively permanent caste system within the player base. Well done. Deplorable, but well done.
speak for yourself i went from around 15k over 35 days to 20k over 35 days
it depends where you are in gac but it also depends on wear you were in arena and most of the playerbase was not coming close to 15k
15k is squad only and includes rotating 1 and 2 daily with a 50 refresh most players werent willing or able to do that
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Because this graph does not answer how it is determinded who gets awarded points and who gets them removed or why. Where in the chart do you see why there are people with the same SR and yet some get points awarded and some removed?
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Because this graph does not answer how it is determinded who gets awarded points and who gets them removed or why. Where in the chart do you see why there are people with the same SR and yet some get points awarded and some removed?
It shows how many are awarded/removed based on a particular SR.
It shows no evidence, or possibility, of 2 ppl with same SR getting treated differently, and I find it hard to believe those who are claiming it.
Yeah the squish is an abomination. It might work “correctly” (not sure about that though, have seen some real strange corner cases), but more importantly it doesn’t feel fair and player friendly. There has to be a better way to handle this than arbitrarily removing skill points you earned through winning a competition.
It is player friendly - just not to all players. It is whale friendly.
And this is based on evidence, I take it?
Sure, go look at matchups whales get before and after squishes. When their skill rating moves down and the overall bell curve becomes un-lengthened (taller), you see more lopsided matches.
This skill score gets better and better over time. Squishes undo this progress to help the whales get better matches.
You’ve been keeping track of what matchups whales get? How, like on a spreadsheet? Serious q
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Because this graph does not answer how it is determinded who gets awarded points and who gets them removed or why. Where in the chart do you see why there are people with the same SR and yet some get points awarded and some removed?
It shows how many are awarded/removed based on a particular SR.
It shows no evidence, or possibility, of 2 ppl with same SR getting treated differently, and I find it hard to believe those who are claiming it.
First of all this doesn't answer what I asked before.
How is it determined where players get placed? There is no info to be found about that and the graph does not answer that.
This links directly into the squish. If you have for example 5000 players with the same SR, how is it decided who gets placed on top and who on the bottom?
This links to the next point. Since they want to have percentages in the divisions it will be impossible to move everyone with the same SR in the same direction or else they will again end up with an imbalance and the squish is supposed to rebalance the percentages per division.
So they make a cut somewhere between those people within the same SR, depending on where they are they get points taken/awarded. For example the ones on the bottom get points taken so they will fit into the SR range of the division below. So is it random where you get placed in the group of all those with the same SR? If yes, how is it fair that you lose points just because you were unlucky to get placed at the bottom? If it is not random, then how is it determined?
As I said before, people posted screenshots from before and after the squish so they didn't claim anything, they showed it. And then others with the same initial SR saw those screenshots and posted theirs because some had a different outcome.
I wish I had saved them so I could show them to you and if it wouldn't mean to search through thousands of comments and posts since the last squish, I would search through them to be able to show you.
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Because this graph does not answer how it is determinded who gets awarded points and who gets them removed or why. Where in the chart do you see why there are people with the same SR and yet some get points awarded and some removed?
It shows how many are awarded/removed based on a particular SR.
It shows no evidence, or possibility, of 2 ppl with same SR getting treated differently, and I find it hard to believe those who are claiming it.
First of all this doesn't answer what I asked before.
How is it determined where players get placed? There is no info to be found about that and the graph does not answer that.
This links directly into the squish. If you have for example 5000 players with the same SR, how is it decided who gets placed on top and who on the bottom?
This links to the next point. Since they want to have percentages in the divisions it will be impossible to move everyone with the same SR in the same direction or else they will again end up with an imbalance and the squish is supposed to rebalance the percentages per division.
So they make a cut somewhere between those people within the same SR, depending on where they are they get points taken/awarded. For example the ones on the bottom get points taken so they will fit into the SR range of the division below. So is it random where you get placed in the group of all those with the same SR? If yes, how is it fair that you lose points just because you were unlucky to get placed at the bottom? If it is not random, then how is it determined?
As I said before, people posted screenshots from before and after the squish so they didn't claim anything, they showed it. And then others with the same initial SR saw those screenshots and posted theirs because some had a different outcome.
I wish I had saved them so I could show them to you and if it wouldn't mean to search through thousands of comments and posts since the last squish, I would search through them to be able to show you.
I think maybe you don't understand the graph, as it tells you exactly how many pts were added/removed based on a person's SR (from which you can also determine league and division).
Every single point on the graph fits the linear pattern perfectly and doesn't leave any wiggle room. If people are reporting otherwise, then either they're incorrect/mistaken, purposely misleading, or there are some fringe cases where another mechanism takes over that is not captured by that graph. If it's the last case, I obviously can't speak to it. I would say it's probably extremely more likely that any person's experience will much more follow what the graph is showing.
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Because this graph does not answer how it is determinded who gets awarded points and who gets them removed or why. Where in the chart do you see why there are people with the same SR and yet some get points awarded and some removed?
It shows how many are awarded/removed based on a particular SR.
It shows no evidence, or possibility, of 2 ppl with same SR getting treated differently, and I find it hard to believe those who are claiming it.
First of all this doesn't answer what I asked before.
How is it determined where players get placed? There is no info to be found about that and the graph does not answer that.
This links directly into the squish. If you have for example 5000 players with the same SR, how is it decided who gets placed on top and who on the bottom?
This links to the next point. Since they want to have percentages in the divisions it will be impossible to move everyone with the same SR in the same direction or else they will again end up with an imbalance and the squish is supposed to rebalance the percentages per division.
So they make a cut somewhere between those people within the same SR, depending on where they are they get points taken/awarded. For example the ones on the bottom get points taken so they will fit into the SR range of the division below. So is it random where you get placed in the group of all those with the same SR? If yes, how is it fair that you lose points just because you were unlucky to get placed at the bottom? If it is not random, then how is it determined?
As I said before, people posted screenshots from before and after the squish so they didn't claim anything, they showed it. And then others with the same initial SR saw those screenshots and posted theirs because some had a different outcome.
I wish I had saved them so I could show them to you and if it wouldn't mean to search through thousands of comments and posts since the last squish, I would search through them to be able to show you.
I think maybe you don't understand the graph, as it tells you exactly how many pts were added/removed based on a person's SR (from which you can also determine league and division).
Every single point on the graph fits the linear pattern perfectly and doesn't leave any wiggle room. If people are reporting otherwise, then either they're incorrect/mistaken, purposely misleading, or there are some fringe cases where another mechanism takes over that is not captured by that graph. If it's the last case, I obviously can't speak to it. I would say it's probably extremely more likely that any person's experience will much more follow what the graph is showing.
I understand the graph perfectly. It just doesn't change what has been said or asked.
Again, the most important question: How is it determined where one gets placed in the group of the same SR?
This is nothing against you, you yourself say that you don't know how it is if it's the last case of your points. And how should you? That's exactly the point of my comments because at this point one can only assume.
I also think it shouldn't matter if it affects many or just a few, and we don't know how many it affects, because the moment where players with the same SR end up with different results because of the squish, that's not right!
In the end it sadly doesn't matter what we say, think, or assume, as long as CG doesn't give us some info on that, we will always end up guessing at some point.
I don't want to beat the horse to death, so I really enjoyed talking with you about this, so thank you for a nice and calm discussion 🙂
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Because this graph does not answer how it is determinded who gets awarded points and who gets them removed or why. Where in the chart do you see why there are people with the same SR and yet some get points awarded and some removed?
It shows how many are awarded/removed based on a particular SR.
It shows no evidence, or possibility, of 2 ppl with same SR getting treated differently, and I find it hard to believe those who are claiming it.
First of all this doesn't answer what I asked before.
How is it determined where players get placed? There is no info to be found about that and the graph does not answer that.
This links directly into the squish. If you have for example 5000 players with the same SR, how is it decided who gets placed on top and who on the bottom?
This links to the next point. Since they want to have percentages in the divisions it will be impossible to move everyone with the same SR in the same direction or else they will again end up with an imbalance and the squish is supposed to rebalance the percentages per division.
So they make a cut somewhere between those people within the same SR, depending on where they are they get points taken/awarded. For example the ones on the bottom get points taken so they will fit into the SR range of the division below. So is it random where you get placed in the group of all those with the same SR? If yes, how is it fair that you lose points just because you were unlucky to get placed at the bottom? If it is not random, then how is it determined?
As I said before, people posted screenshots from before and after the squish so they didn't claim anything, they showed it. And then others with the same initial SR saw those screenshots and posted theirs because some had a different outcome.
I wish I had saved them so I could show them to you and if it wouldn't mean to search through thousands of comments and posts since the last squish, I would search through them to be able to show you.
I think maybe you don't understand the graph, as it tells you exactly how many pts were added/removed based on a person's SR (from which you can also determine league and division).
Every single point on the graph fits the linear pattern perfectly and doesn't leave any wiggle room. If people are reporting otherwise, then either they're incorrect/mistaken, purposely misleading, or there are some fringe cases where another mechanism takes over that is not captured by that graph. If it's the last case, I obviously can't speak to it. I would say it's probably extremely more likely that any person's experience will much more follow what the graph is showing.
I understand the graph perfectly. It just doesn't change what has been said or asked.
Again, the most important question: How is it determined where one gets placed in the group of the same SR?
This is nothing against you, you yourself say that you don't know how it is if it's the last case of your points. And how should you? That's exactly the point of my comments because at this point one can only assume.
I also think it shouldn't matter if it affects many or just a few, and we don't know how many it affects, because the moment where players with the same SR end up with different results because of the squish, that's not right!
In the end it sadly doesn't matter what we say, think, or assume, as long as CG doesn't give us some info on that, we will always end up guessing at some point.
I don't want to beat the horse to death, so I really enjoyed talking with you about this, so thank you for a nice and calm discussion 🙂
I guess I would just need to see someone with a data point that doesn't fall on one of those lines. Then there would be reason to believe that there are in fact outliers. Until then, I have no reason to believe it doesn't perfectly explain what is happening.
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Interesting. So if I am reading that graph correctly CG is indeed using SR modification to flatten the skill ratings: higher SR players in each league lose SR while lower ranked ones gain SR bringing them closer together.
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Interesting. So if I am reading that graph correctly CG is indeed using SR modification to flatten the skill ratings: higher SR players in each league lose SR while lower ranked ones gain SR bringing them closer together.
Exactly. We're all basically pushed toward division 3 of our respective leagues.
Are people suggesting that there are those with the same Skill Rating that are being "squished" differently?
If the squish preserves everyone's rank on the entire ladder, you haven't "moved" really. If the Top X% were Kyber 1 before GAC, and the squish means the new Top X% are Kyber 1 before the next one, what's the problem?
Not suggesting. Actually happened. Discord and Reddit often have people talking about the squish after a squish and there were comments/posts of people with Screenshots from before and after. There were definitely players that ended up on different spots/SR eventhough they started out with the same SR.
Are these edge cases? Meaning the number of players right at the newly formed Division line might have some necessarily end up on one side and the rest on the other?
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Interesting. So if I am reading that graph correctly CG is indeed using SR modification to flatten the skill ratings: higher SR players in each league lose SR while lower ranked ones gain SR bringing them closer together.
Exactly. We're all basically pushed toward division 3 of our respective leagues.
Makes sense. Kind of a soft-reset of the rankings after each season and it keeps Skill Rating inflation in check.
But why would you need to keep skill points squished? For every skill point earned by a winner someone else would have lost it. So it’s not like more skill points are produced? It seems the problem lies elsewhere in the system and the squish iso an arbitrary ad-hoc “solution” that just upsets people because it feels unfair and random.
But why would you need to keep skill points squished? For every skill point earned by a winner someone else would have lost it. So it’s not like more skill points are produced? It seems the problem lies elsewhere in the system and the squish iso an arbitrary ad-hoc “solution” that just upsets people because it feels unfair and random.
Skill Rating is am arbitrary value, period. What difference does it make whether your rating is 1,050 or 1,000 so long as your opponent's Skill Ratings remain similarly scaled?
You assume that the loser of a match loses the same amount as the winner gains. Can you prove that? Because I don't think that is the case. And if Skill Ratings can increase over time then that increases the range of ratings over time, reduces potential matchmaking candidates for a given rating particularly at the top end and requires more wins to climb to the next division / league.
I have been squished just like everyone else and I couldn't care less because it doesn't matter. GAC is all just endless churn now anyway.
As has been mentioned, there's two systems - a skill squish and the skill ranges changing. These things both happen independently and for different reasons. The skill squish happens each month no matter what and won't directly result in a player changing divisions. The skill range change is what is being used to manipulate which division you are in. For instance, they originally announced that Division 1 of all leagues should be 10% of players in that league. So the skill ranges will change at the beginning of the season in order to accomplish this goal.
All that being said, you could get squished and feel like the squish is pushing you out of your division. But that's just because you are outside the 10% of players in division 1 and really it's the skill range that's doing this.
This next season we should see how it will actually affect people. This season was the first season where they were closer to the 10% number they're looking for in kyber 1. I would expect the skill range to actually lower (to adjust for the skill squish) this season instead of staying the same or raising. But we will see. It all will depend on how many people are currently in K1.
To put it simpler, even if they completely removed the skill squish mechanism, they would still do the skill range changes and push you outside the division you think you should be in.
As has been mentioned, there's two systems - a skill squish and the skill ranges changing. These things both happen independently and for different reasons. The skill squish happens each month no matter what and won't directly result in a player changing divisions. The skill range change is what is being used to manipulate which division you are in. For instance, they originally announced that Division 1 of all leagues should be 10% of players in that league. So the skill ranges will change at the beginning of the season in order to accomplish this goal.
All that being said, you could get squished and feel like the squish is pushing you out of your division. But that's just because you are outside the 10% of players in division 1 and really it's the skill range that's doing this.
This next season we should see how it will actually affect people. This season was the first season where they were closer to the 10% number they're looking for in kyber 1. I would expect the skill range to actually lower (to adjust for the skill squish) this season instead of staying the same or raising. But we will see. It all will depend on how many people are currently in K1.
Yes, this is how I understand it as well. People are conflating the squish with the division change, and blaming the wrong mechanism.
But why would you need to keep skill points squished? For every skill point earned by a winner someone else would have lost it. So it’s not like more skill points are produced? It seems the problem lies elsewhere in the system and the squish iso an arbitrary ad-hoc “solution” that just upsets people because it feels unfair and random.
Skill Rating is am arbitrary value, period. What difference does it make whether your rating is 1,050 or 1,000 so long as your opponent's Skill Ratings remain similarly scaled?
You assume that the loser of a match loses the same amount as the winner gains. Can you prove that? Because I don't think that is the case. And if Skill Ratings can increase over time then that increases the range of ratings over time, reduces potential matchmaking candidates for a given rating particularly at the top end and requires more wins to climb to the next division / league.
I have been squished just like everyone else and I couldn't care less because it doesn't matter. GAC is all just endless churn now anyway.
I can’t prove anything about this system, and I don’t need to. I just know that how it’s implemented now “feels” unfair to the players, or at least some players. For you it doesn’t matter because as you say GAC is just an endless churn, and I can agree I get that feeling as well.
But they could design a system that would achieve the same number of people in the different levels without the squish.
I can give an example of what happened to me that made me feel this was counterintuitive, last GAC I did well and managed get a higher skill point rating by the end than usual by pulling of more 2-1 wins than 1-2 losses and even ended with a 3-0 win. Felt like even after the squish I should have managed to get some breathing room for the start of next GAC by getting a positive win/loss ratio. But no, the squish just reduced a lot more points than normal and when starting the next GAC I was closer than ever to the limit to bump me down. And I got some harder than usual competition that week getting a 1-2 loss count and therefore being bumped down to Kyber 2 for the first time. So even though in total I still have more wins than losses I have the feeling of being overly penalized by the squish.
The system probably works exactly correct according to design but it reduces the fun, at least for me.
But why would you need to keep skill points squished? For every skill point earned by a winner someone else would have lost it. So it’s not like more skill points are produced? It seems the problem lies elsewhere in the system and the squish iso an arbitrary ad-hoc “solution” that just upsets people because it feels unfair and random.
Skill Rating is am arbitrary value, period. What difference does it make whether your rating is 1,050 or 1,000 so long as your opponent's Skill Ratings remain similarly scaled?
You assume that the loser of a match loses the same amount as the winner gains. Can you prove that? Because I don't think that is the case. And if Skill Ratings can increase over time then that increases the range of ratings over time, reduces potential matchmaking candidates for a given rating particularly at the top end and requires more wins to climb to the next division / league.
I have been squished just like everyone else and I couldn't care less because it doesn't matter. GAC is all just endless churn now anyway.
I can’t prove anything about this system, and I don’t need to. I just know that how it’s implemented now “feels” unfair to the players, or at least some players. For you it doesn’t matter because as you say GAC is just an endless churn, and I can agree I get that feeling as well.
But they could design a system that would achieve the same number of people in the different levels without the squish.
I can give an example of what happened to me that made me feel this was counterintuitive, last GAC I did well and managed get a higher skill point rating by the end than usual by pulling of more 2-1 wins than 1-2 losses and even ended with a 3-0 win. Felt like even after the squish I should have managed to get some breathing room for the start of next GAC by getting a positive win/loss ratio. But no, the squish just reduced a lot more points than normal and when starting the next GAC I was closer than ever to the limit to bump me down. And I got some harder than usual competition that week getting a 1-2 loss count and therefore being bumped down to Kyber 2 for the first time. So even though in total I still have more wins than losses I have the feeling of being overly penalized by the squish.
The system probably works exactly correct according to design but it reduces the fun, at least for me.
The squish pushes you toward k3. It can't be the cause of you dropping to k2. Stop going by your "feels" and start looking at math.
What sigsig said makes a lot of sense to me. I was actually starting to think that people were relegated because of the boundary change, not the squishes. Only that could reconcile what happened and what CG stated (that squishes aren't supposed to cause division/league chanegs).
However, the data graph someone posted above shows basically:
Squish = - (SR - M) * K
where M is the average or median of the league, and K is some constant that is only different from league to league.
So the squishes do not change anybody's division (as CG stated), nor do they change anybody's relative standing (as can be proven from the formula above). All it does is making the SRs closer to each other. And as Rath said above, the numerical value of an SR itself is meaningless. So my question now is, why is there a need, at all, to push everyone towards the center of each league numerically?
What sigsig said makes a lot of sense to me. I was actually starting to think that people were relegated because of the boundary change, not the squishes. Only that could reconcile what happened and what CG stated (that squishes aren't supposed to cause division/league chanegs).
However, the data graph someone posted above shows basically:
Squish = - (SR - M) * K
where M is the average or median of the league, and K is some constant that is only different from league to league.
So the squishes do not change anybody's division (as CG stated), nor do they change anybody's relative standing (as can be proven from the formula above). All it does is making the SRs closer to each other. And as Rath said above, the numerical value of an SR itself is meaningless. So my question now is, why is there a need, at all, to push everyone towards the center of each league numerically?
To control the inflation of SR numbers. It keeps us bunched together, otherwise we'd eventually have so much separation between us, that we'd be locked into the same brackets indefinitely.
To control the inflation of SR numbers. It keeps us bunched together, otherwise we'd eventually have so much separation between us, that we'd be locked into the same brackets indefinitely.
It probably helps in that regard, but if it pulls us toward the league center, that actually moves up with the inflation too.
One possibility I thought of after making last post is that maybe they are just trying to keep SR's in distinct ranges between leagues. IOW, make sure when a new season starts, the bottom of an upper league is always above the top of the lower league. Why? I don't know. Maybe to keep people from making whining threads. /shrug
To control the inflation of SR numbers. It keeps us bunched together, otherwise we'd eventually have so much separation between us, that we'd be locked into the same brackets indefinitely.
Maybe to keep people from making whining threads. /shrug
To control the inflation of SR numbers. It keeps us bunched together, otherwise we'd eventually have so much separation between us, that we'd be locked into the same brackets indefinitely.
It probably helps in that regard, but if it pulls us toward the league center, that actually moves up with the inflation too.
One possibility I thought of after making last post is that maybe they are just trying to keep SR's in distinct ranges between leagues. IOW, make sure when a new season starts, the bottom of an upper league is always above the top of the lower league. Why? I don't know. Maybe to keep people from making whining threads. /shrug
I agree this probably is more likely. ELO is a zero sum system: for every pt lost, one is earned, but the pool of players can increase overtime creating the inflation. Without the squish, the range for each league would have to be adjusted every season to remain relevant.
People need to stop getting hung up on SR as though it's an absolute value of skill. It is only a comparison between players, used to compute the amount of SR awarded/lost each match based on an expected outcome.
Now I'm wondering if point spread is factored in to the SR. No reason it couldn't or shouldn't be, but this would mean points actually do matter, not just wins and losses.
What sigsig said makes a lot of sense to me. I was actually starting to think that people were relegated because of the boundary change, not the squishes. Only that could reconcile what happened and what CG stated (that squishes aren't supposed to cause division/league chanegs).
However, the data graph someone posted above shows basically:
Squish = - (SR - M) * K
where M is the average or median of the league, and K is some constant that is only different from league to league.
So the squishes do not change anybody's division (as CG stated), nor do they change anybody's relative standing (as can be proven from the formula above). All it does is making the SRs closer to each other. And as Rath said above, the numerical value of an SR itself is meaningless. So my question now is, why is there a need, at all, to push everyone towards the center of each league numerically?
I think it is because the divisions in the middle are larger than the ones at the extremes. So there are always more players in div 3 moving up to div 2 and down to div 4, than there are players moving in the other direction. Same for d2 to d1, and d4 to d5 as well. So because the middle divisions are bigger at first, all players migrate out towards the ends. Then the squish brings them back towards the middle.
If the divisions were just an even 20% split I don't think they would need it.
What sigsig said makes a lot of sense to me. I was actually starting to think that people were relegated because of the boundary change, not the squishes. Only that could reconcile what happened and what CG stated (that squishes aren't supposed to cause division/league chanegs).
However, the data graph someone posted above shows basically:
Squish = - (SR - M) * K
where M is the average or median of the league, and K is some constant that is only different from league to league.
So the squishes do not change anybody's division (as CG stated), nor do they change anybody's relative standing (as can be proven from the formula above). All it does is making the SRs closer to each other. And as Rath said above, the numerical value of an SR itself is meaningless. So my question now is, why is there a need, at all, to push everyone towards the center of each league numerically?
I think it is because the divisions in the middle are larger than the ones at the extremes. So there are always more players in div 3 moving up to div 2 and down to div 4, than there are players moving in the other direction. Same for d2 to d1, and d4 to d5 as well. So because the middle divisions are bigger at first, all players migrate out towards the ends. Then the squish brings them back towards the middle.
If the divisions were just an even 20% split I don't think they would need it.
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If I'm not mistaken, the squish doesn't change your position in the ladder. If you were the 2500th player before the squish, you're still the 2500th player after the squish.
@Starslayer
that is correct. But something happens anyway. If they said place 1-8000 is always Kyber 1 you are right. Then it doesn't matter. But they say under 3610 banner you go Kyber 1.
With a skill of 3725 I was rank 8361 after season 1 (new GAC). Then came the first squish and the adjustment of the range from 3540 to 3610. At the end of the 2nd season I was rank 4688 with a skill of 3761. Now I have I have a skill of 3725 again and am ranked 4204. So less skill but higher rank. There is only one difference. At rank 8361 you have different opponents than at rank 4204. If I do a 6-6 this season and again next season. And should there be a skill squish every season as high as the first two, I'm Kyber 2 in Season 5. Currently about 10% of the Kyber players are in Kyber 1. If the squishes are only made until the 10% has been reached, everything is fine. Then there will be no more big squish. But if I get 71-77 points deducted every season, I'm bound to be relegated. A few before me got it even though they won sigar more often than they lost. And others will get it later. In a year maybe there would only be 500 players left in Kyber 1 ;-)
speak for yourself i went from around 15k over 35 days to 20k over 35 days
it depends where you are in gac but it also depends on wear you were in arena and most of the playerbase was not coming close to 15k
15k is squad only and includes rotating 1 and 2 daily with a 50 refresh most players werent willing or able to do that
its a net gain for most people
This I can't tell you. I just know that I saw quite a few whom it happened to/who compared and it confused quite a lot of people because it seemed to make no sense/random.
But even then it might be good to know what code/mechanic decides who gets awarded points and who loses points.
Might be the same formula that decides the ranking of people with the same SR, meaning who gets placed as the 1st in that group and so on. I am really curious how that gets determined.
Someone already did the work for us with this graph. Idk why were still talking about this like it's some random mysterious thing...
Because this graph does not answer how it is determinded who gets awarded points and who gets them removed or why. Where in the chart do you see why there are people with the same SR and yet some get points awarded and some removed?
It shows how many are awarded/removed based on a particular SR.
It shows no evidence, or possibility, of 2 ppl with same SR getting treated differently, and I find it hard to believe those who are claiming it.
You’ve been keeping track of what matchups whales get? How, like on a spreadsheet? Serious q
First of all this doesn't answer what I asked before.
How is it determined where players get placed? There is no info to be found about that and the graph does not answer that.
This links directly into the squish. If you have for example 5000 players with the same SR, how is it decided who gets placed on top and who on the bottom?
This links to the next point. Since they want to have percentages in the divisions it will be impossible to move everyone with the same SR in the same direction or else they will again end up with an imbalance and the squish is supposed to rebalance the percentages per division.
So they make a cut somewhere between those people within the same SR, depending on where they are they get points taken/awarded. For example the ones on the bottom get points taken so they will fit into the SR range of the division below. So is it random where you get placed in the group of all those with the same SR? If yes, how is it fair that you lose points just because you were unlucky to get placed at the bottom? If it is not random, then how is it determined?
As I said before, people posted screenshots from before and after the squish so they didn't claim anything, they showed it. And then others with the same initial SR saw those screenshots and posted theirs because some had a different outcome.
I wish I had saved them so I could show them to you and if it wouldn't mean to search through thousands of comments and posts since the last squish, I would search through them to be able to show you.
I think maybe you don't understand the graph, as it tells you exactly how many pts were added/removed based on a person's SR (from which you can also determine league and division).
Every single point on the graph fits the linear pattern perfectly and doesn't leave any wiggle room. If people are reporting otherwise, then either they're incorrect/mistaken, purposely misleading, or there are some fringe cases where another mechanism takes over that is not captured by that graph. If it's the last case, I obviously can't speak to it. I would say it's probably extremely more likely that any person's experience will much more follow what the graph is showing.
I understand the graph perfectly. It just doesn't change what has been said or asked.
Again, the most important question: How is it determined where one gets placed in the group of the same SR?
This is nothing against you, you yourself say that you don't know how it is if it's the last case of your points. And how should you? That's exactly the point of my comments because at this point one can only assume.
I also think it shouldn't matter if it affects many or just a few, and we don't know how many it affects, because the moment where players with the same SR end up with different results because of the squish, that's not right!
In the end it sadly doesn't matter what we say, think, or assume, as long as CG doesn't give us some info on that, we will always end up guessing at some point.
I don't want to beat the horse to death, so I really enjoyed talking with you about this, so thank you for a nice and calm discussion 🙂
I guess I would just need to see someone with a data point that doesn't fall on one of those lines. Then there would be reason to believe that there are in fact outliers. Until then, I have no reason to believe it doesn't perfectly explain what is happening.
Exactly. We're all basically pushed toward division 3 of our respective leagues.
You assume that the loser of a match loses the same amount as the winner gains. Can you prove that? Because I don't think that is the case. And if Skill Ratings can increase over time then that increases the range of ratings over time, reduces potential matchmaking candidates for a given rating particularly at the top end and requires more wins to climb to the next division / league.
I have been squished just like everyone else and I couldn't care less because it doesn't matter. GAC is all just endless churn now anyway.
All that being said, you could get squished and feel like the squish is pushing you out of your division. But that's just because you are outside the 10% of players in division 1 and really it's the skill range that's doing this.
This next season we should see how it will actually affect people. This season was the first season where they were closer to the 10% number they're looking for in kyber 1. I would expect the skill range to actually lower (to adjust for the skill squish) this season instead of staying the same or raising. But we will see. It all will depend on how many people are currently in K1.
To put it simpler, even if they completely removed the skill squish mechanism, they would still do the skill range changes and push you outside the division you think you should be in.
Yes, this is how I understand it as well. People are conflating the squish with the division change, and blaming the wrong mechanism.
I can’t prove anything about this system, and I don’t need to. I just know that how it’s implemented now “feels” unfair to the players, or at least some players. For you it doesn’t matter because as you say GAC is just an endless churn, and I can agree I get that feeling as well.
But they could design a system that would achieve the same number of people in the different levels without the squish.
I can give an example of what happened to me that made me feel this was counterintuitive, last GAC I did well and managed get a higher skill point rating by the end than usual by pulling of more 2-1 wins than 1-2 losses and even ended with a 3-0 win. Felt like even after the squish I should have managed to get some breathing room for the start of next GAC by getting a positive win/loss ratio. But no, the squish just reduced a lot more points than normal and when starting the next GAC I was closer than ever to the limit to bump me down. And I got some harder than usual competition that week getting a 1-2 loss count and therefore being bumped down to Kyber 2 for the first time. So even though in total I still have more wins than losses I have the feeling of being overly penalized by the squish.
The system probably works exactly correct according to design but it reduces the fun, at least for me.
The squish pushes you toward k3. It can't be the cause of you dropping to k2. Stop going by your "feels" and start looking at math.
However, the data graph someone posted above shows basically:
Squish = - (SR - M) * K
where M is the average or median of the league, and K is some constant that is only different from league to league.
So the squishes do not change anybody's division (as CG stated), nor do they change anybody's relative standing (as can be proven from the formula above). All it does is making the SRs closer to each other. And as Rath said above, the numerical value of an SR itself is meaningless. So my question now is, why is there a need, at all, to push everyone towards the center of each league numerically?
To control the inflation of SR numbers. It keeps us bunched together, otherwise we'd eventually have so much separation between us, that we'd be locked into the same brackets indefinitely.
It probably helps in that regard, but if it pulls us toward the league center, that actually moves up with the inflation too.
One possibility I thought of after making last post is that maybe they are just trying to keep SR's in distinct ranges between leagues. IOW, make sure when a new season starts, the bottom of an upper league is always above the top of the lower league. Why? I don't know. Maybe to keep people from making whining threads. /shrug
I agree this probably is more likely. ELO is a zero sum system: for every pt lost, one is earned, but the pool of players can increase overtime creating the inflation. Without the squish, the range for each league would have to be adjusted every season to remain relevant.
People need to stop getting hung up on SR as though it's an absolute value of skill. It is only a comparison between players, used to compute the amount of SR awarded/lost each match based on an expected outcome.
I think it is because the divisions in the middle are larger than the ones at the extremes. So there are always more players in div 3 moving up to div 2 and down to div 4, than there are players moving in the other direction. Same for d2 to d1, and d4 to d5 as well. So because the middle divisions are bigger at first, all players migrate out towards the ends. Then the squish brings them back towards the middle.
If the divisions were just an even 20% split I don't think they would need it.
It would still be needed because of inflation.