It does nullify wins and eventually will push me and my matchups out of kyber 1. Kyber 1 score is still 3610. I'm still matched up with peers that I will go 50/50 against and at the end of the season we all get pushed down basically 2 wins.
Division 1 is for the top 10% of the league. If the squish moves you out of div 1 you are not in the top 10% and have not earned those rewards.
They don't apply the squish until next season starts, so you just had a week of getting more rewards than you really should have had. CG be so generous.
@Winterwolves correct. The squish doesn’t force you out of the league but it makes it harder for players to get promoted into kyber to replace those that play themselves out of the league.
yes they likely started with too many in kyber. I’m not sure if this was a mistake or because they couldn’t be sure how many people would signup in the first few seasons or if they intended to have unbalanced leagues. I know they’ve stated they wanted a 10/25/30/25/10 distribution among divisions but I don’t recall them saying leagues should be equal.
If they do want leagues even they’ve overcorrected. 20% of 343kish (season 1) is 68.6k vs 88 k actual for kyber league. 20* of 309k (last season) is 61.8 k vs 49159 for kyber league.
Finally one last comment, while I don’t think your gp should cap how high you can climb, I’m beginning to believe there should be a floor. For example once you reach 8 million gp maybe you can’t be lower than k5. This would serve multiple purposes:
A) Reward players for achieving a gp benchmark give players below it a set goal where it’s easy to determine when you lock in various crystal income
C) prevents inactive but signed up accounts from ruining the fun for younger accounts
I called this after the first season and at the time supporters of this system claimed the shrink was just to keep the division sizes constant. Here we are.
I don't mind or care anymore, I'll always be somewhere in k1-2-3. There comes matches sometime that's neck to neck which I enjoy...rarely. I'll take that and make do.
The squish does not push people out of kyber, down to aurodium.
Here are players in k4 and k5:
They got an increase in points from the squish.
The squish happens to everyone in a league, and pushes them towards the middle of division 3 of their league. The same points get applied to every player on a given skill rating. The players around you do not get changed by the squish. Your matchups are unaffected by the squish.
If you are near the boundary of your division you may get moved. Some div4 and div5 players would have been moved up.
It doesn't nullify your wins, as your score is only used to compare you to other players, all subject to the squish too.
I was in Aurodium 3 for quite a while. If what you say were true, I would not have lost skill points before last GAC started (was in A3, my SR got squished)
Before this season started, I was in A4 and got squished again
According to you and others, I would have gained points pushing me towards 3 instead of losing points.
Also I think those graphs speak for themselves.
I lost more rounds than I won, I am now the second season one division lower, so 50/50 doesn't hold up either, which makes sense because the system gives me opponents that should be "winnable" after losing but if those accounts are still bigger, because they dropped aswell further, the theory is disproven by reality.
So sounds like unless they stop shrinking Kyber in total, Kyber 1 will continue to shrink. Thus pushing the undeserving accounts like mine down making Kyber that much more difficult to get into and shrinking it further. Working as intended
@Winterwolves correct. The squish doesn’t force you out of the league but it makes it harder for players to get promoted into kyber to replace those that play themselves out of the league.
yes they likely started with too many in kyber. I’m not sure if this was a mistake or because they couldn’t be sure how many people would signup in the first few seasons or if they intended to have unbalanced leagues. I know they’ve stated they wanted a 10/25/30/25/10 distribution among divisions but I don’t recall them saying leagues should be equal.
If they do want leagues even they’ve overcorrected. 20% of 343kish (season 1) is 68.6k vs 88 k actual for kyber league. 20* of 309k (last season) is 61.8 k vs 49159 for kyber league.
Finally one last comment, while I don’t think your gp should cap how high you can climb, I’m beginning to believe there should be a floor. For example once you reach 8 million gp maybe you can’t be lower than k5. This would serve multiple purposes:
A) Reward players for achieving a gp benchmark give players below it a set goal where it’s easy to determine when you lock in various crystal income
C) prevents inactive but signed up accounts from ruining the fun for younger accounts
So once an account reaches 8m, they can just kick back and enjoy k5 rewards forever?
If this info is true:
"Iirc around 16k people started in kyber 1 in season 1. It’s less than 6k now." by @Drathuk916
Sorry but you can't explain away the change in sizes simply by quitters.
Not entirely clear what you’re taking exception too. First season had around 343k according to swgoh.gg. I forget the poster before Scott over there but you can find it yourself. So around 34kish fewer accounts are signing up each season. Kyber league has shrunk from 88k to under 50k. So yes obviously not all accounts that have quit were in kyber league. However I certainly believe more than half of the accounts that no longer signup were in kyber league. This still leaves a sizable amount of accounts to be demoted through inactive play but still signing up and to much much lesser extent poor players being pushed out of kyber.
I agree the squish has had an intended effect of pushing people out of kyber or more correctly making it more difficult for players from aurodium to play well enough to replace those playing badly enough in kyber who earn a demotion. But I don’t think it is larger than the effect of quitting players is having.
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
If this info is true:
"Iirc around 16k people started in kyber 1 in season 1. It’s less than 6k now." by @Drathuk916
Sorry but you can't explain away the change in sizes simply by quitters.
Not entirely clear what you’re taking exception too. First season had around 343k according to swgoh.gg. I forget the poster before Scott over there but you can find it yourself. So around 34kish fewer accounts are signing up each season. Kyber league has shrunk from 88k to under 50k. So yes obviously not all accounts that have quit were in kyber league. However I certainly believe more than half of the accounts that no longer signup were in kyber league. This still leaves a sizable amount of accounts to be demoted through inactive play but still signing up and to much much lesser extent poor players being pushed out of kyber.
I agree the squish has had an intended effect of pushing people out of kyber or more correctly making it more difficult for players from aurodium to play well enough to replace those playing badly enough in kyber who earn a demotion. But I don’t think it is larger than the effect of quitting players is having.
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
If you take the people that don't belong in Kyber and the people that don't really participate in GAC in addition to the quitting (which is almost definitely top heavy [anecdotal]), then it's hardly surprising.
If they are still trying to keep up with that goal, the conclusion would be that the overall GAC population has been shrinking.
Those aren't sizes by count, they're distributions. And as many others have already mentioned, Kyber (K1, in particular) was over-saturated with the initial GP rankings. So of course the head count in divisions will need to change to achieve the desired distribution.
As an opinion aside to all of this. Based on what the top of K1 looks like compared to the middle compared to the bottom compared to what I'm told K2 is like, we don't need more people in K1, especially given how lucrative the rewards are in the lower Kyber divisions.
If this info is true:
"Iirc around 16k people started in kyber 1 in season 1. It’s less than 6k now." by @Drathuk916
Sorry but you can't explain away the change in sizes simply by quitters.
Not entirely clear what you’re taking exception too. First season had around 343k according to swgoh.gg. I forget the poster before Scott over there but you can find it yourself. So around 34kish fewer accounts are signing up each season. Kyber league has shrunk from 88k to under 50k. So yes obviously not all accounts that have quit were in kyber league. However I certainly believe more than half of the accounts that no longer signup were in kyber league. This still leaves a sizable amount of accounts to be demoted through inactive play but still signing up and to much much lesser extent poor players being pushed out of kyber.
I agree the squish has had an intended effect of pushing people out of kyber or more correctly making it more difficult for players from aurodium to play well enough to replace those playing badly enough in kyber who earn a demotion. But I don’t think it is larger than the effect of quitting players is having.
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
Gotcha. I was trying to clarify my opinion is all.
And to @PeachyPeachSWGOH yes, get to benchmarks that can be moved every six months or so and join but never participate get a better baseline reward. It’s no different than getting a meta team and ignoring squad arena in the past. Well sure it’s giving out more crystals but everyone is already getting more than they use to.
Under this change an 8 million account that joins but doesn’t really participate gets a total of 8960 crystals in 28 days or 320 a day average. Yeah that seems like a lot but that’s still around half of what a k1 active participant gets. You can change the reward structure too if you like. The actual crystal reward doesn’t matter to me. What matters is making it easier for younger/smaller accounts to plan a path forward to a reasonable daily income while lessening their frustration with severely unbalanced matches due to lack of active participation. I mean there is an 11 million gp account in carbonite 5 for deity’s sake. How is that fun?
If they are still trying to keep up with that goal, the conclusion would be that the overall GAC population has been shrinking.
Those aren't sizes by count, they're distributions. And as many others have already mentioned, Kyber (K1, in particular) was over-saturated with the initial GP rankings. So of course the head count in divisions will need to change to achieve the desired distribution.
Aren't the distributions percentages of head counts? What's the difference between "sizes by count" and "distributions?"
As for Kyber being over-saturated initially, I have always assumed that they picked the initial GP thresholds so that the population would be approximately evenly spread across the leagues.
If this info is true:
"Iirc around 16k people started in kyber 1 in season 1. It’s less than 6k now." by @Drathuk916
Sorry but you can't explain away the change in sizes simply by quitters.
Not entirely clear what you’re taking exception too. First season had around 343k according to swgoh.gg. I forget the poster before Scott over there but you can find it yourself. So around 34kish fewer accounts are signing up each season. Kyber league has shrunk from 88k to under 50k. So yes obviously not all accounts that have quit were in kyber league. However I certainly believe more than half of the accounts that no longer signup were in kyber league. This still leaves a sizable amount of accounts to be demoted through inactive play but still signing up and to much much lesser extent poor players being pushed out of kyber.
I agree the squish has had an intended effect of pushing people out of kyber or more correctly making it more difficult for players from aurodium to play well enough to replace those playing badly enough in kyber who earn a demotion. But I don’t think it is larger than the effect of quitting players is having.
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
Gotcha. I was trying to clarify my opinion is all.
And to @PeachyPeachSWGOH yes, get to benchmarks that can be moved every six months or so and join but never participate get a better baseline reward. It’s no different than getting a meta team and ignoring squad arena in the past. Well sure it’s giving out more crystals but everyone is already getting more than they use to.
Under this change an 8 million account that joins but doesn’t really participate gets a total of 8960 crystals in 28 days or 320 a day average. Yeah that seems like a lot but that’s still around half of what a k1 active participant gets. You can change the reward structure too if you like. The actual crystal reward doesn’t matter to me. What matters is making it easier for younger/smaller accounts to plan a path forward to a reasonable daily income while lessening their frustration with severely unbalanced matches due to lack of active participation. I mean there is an 11 million gp account in carbonite 5 for deity’s sake. How is that fun?
Well, I don't know about you, if it's between the amount of work one has to do in order to stay in K1, or half of the reward for doing practically nothing? I'd pick the latter.
You would need to steepen the reward ladder by a lot in order to incentivize people to strive for higher divisions. Something tells me CG will not drastically increase K1 payouts so it's the lower Kyber payouts that must drop for the ladder to be steeper. That would then put a lower cap on all the lower league payouts.
And the real problem of a gp floor is not the rewards, actually. It's that it doesn't solve the problem fundamentally, because instead of 11 mil accounts in Carbonite 5, you would just have 7.9 mil ones in Carbonite 5, and the 11 mil ones are just going to hang around Kyber 5. They would still be slacking off, and frustrating other players, except they'd be doing it for much better rewards.
If this info is true:
"Iirc around 16k people started in kyber 1 in season 1. It’s less than 6k now." by @Drathuk916
Sorry but you can't explain away the change in sizes simply by quitters.
Not entirely clear what you’re taking exception too. First season had around 343k according to swgoh.gg. I forget the poster before Scott over there but you can find it yourself. So around 34kish fewer accounts are signing up each season. Kyber league has shrunk from 88k to under 50k. So yes obviously not all accounts that have quit were in kyber league. However I certainly believe more than half of the accounts that no longer signup were in kyber league. This still leaves a sizable amount of accounts to be demoted through inactive play but still signing up and to much much lesser extent poor players being pushed out of kyber.
I agree the squish has had an intended effect of pushing people out of kyber or more correctly making it more difficult for players from aurodium to play well enough to replace those playing badly enough in kyber who earn a demotion. But I don’t think it is larger than the effect of quitting players is having.
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
Gotcha. I was trying to clarify my opinion is all.
And to @PeachyPeachSWGOH yes, get to benchmarks that can be moved every six months or so and join but never participate get a better baseline reward. It’s no different than getting a meta team and ignoring squad arena in the past. Well sure it’s giving out more crystals but everyone is already getting more than they use to.
Under this change an 8 million account that joins but doesn’t really participate gets a total of 8960 crystals in 28 days or 320 a day average. Yeah that seems like a lot but that’s still around half of what a k1 active participant gets. You can change the reward structure too if you like. The actual crystal reward doesn’t matter to me. What matters is making it easier for younger/smaller accounts to plan a path forward to a reasonable daily income while lessening their frustration with severely unbalanced matches due to lack of active participation. I mean there is an 11 million gp account in carbonite 5 for deity’s sake. How is that fun?
Well, I don't know about you, if it's between the amount of work one has to do in order to stay in K1, or half of the reward for doing practically nothing? I'd pick the latter.
You would need to steepen the reward ladder by a lot in order to incentivize people to strive for higher divisions. Something tells me CG will not drastically increase K1 payouts so it's the lower Kyber payouts that must drop for the ladder to be steeper. That would then put a lower cap on all the lower league payouts.
And the real problem of a gp floor is not the rewards, actually. It's that it doesn't solve the problem fundamentally, because instead of 11 mil accounts in Carbonite 5, you would just have 7.9 mil ones in Carbonite 5, and the 11 mil ones are just going to hang around Kyber 5. They would still be slacking off, and frustrating other players, except they'd be doing it for much better rewards.
The benchmark would be for each league. 6 million couldn’t drop out of aurodium 4 million chromium 2 million bronzium. It’s the compromise position between the old system and the new system. Your skill ranking can get you into any league or division but your gp prevents you from dropping too far. This is all randomly picked numbers.
The goal would be to have a more obvious route to increasing your crystal income. Right now the average player only really increases their income through players above them dropping from actively participating or out right quitting This remains true until you get all six soon 7 gls as jabba becomes more common.
If the details get set perfectly, I would hope you'd see players see more gp appropriate matches with fewer matches against non participating members. Divisions 1-4 in each league should largely remain unchanged in terms of participating opponents but the removal of larger accounts that only participate when they get opponents they can’t lose too. Instead they’ll be dumped into division 5 of their gp appropriate division.
The obvious retort is giving players 320 crystals a day(at most) for doing nothing but building an 8 million account whether ftp or whaling should have some benefit and you can still double that income through participating.
If they are still trying to keep up with that goal, the conclusion would be that the overall GAC population has been shrinking.
Those aren't sizes by count, they're distributions. And as many others have already mentioned, Kyber (K1, in particular) was over-saturated with the initial GP rankings. So of course the head count in divisions will need to change to achieve the desired distribution.
Aren't the distributions percentages of head counts? What's the difference between "sizes by count" and "distributions?"
As for Kyber being over-saturated initially, I have always assumed that they picked the initial GP thresholds so that the population would be approximately evenly spread across the leagues.
If my goal is to keep 10% of X in a group, then the size of the group will be tied to X and won't necessarily be constant. Also, if my initial state is way out of alignment, I will have to adjust the size of the group to get to my desired %. I could do this all at once, but the shock might be too great. So maybe I take my time and spread it out over time.
If they are still trying to keep up with that goal, the conclusion would be that the overall GAC population has been shrinking.
Those aren't sizes by count, they're distributions. And as many others have already mentioned, Kyber (K1, in particular) was over-saturated with the initial GP rankings. So of course the head count in divisions will need to change to achieve the desired distribution.
Aren't the distributions percentages of head counts? What's the difference between "sizes by count" and "distributions?"
As for Kyber being over-saturated initially, I have always assumed that they picked the initial GP thresholds so that the population would be approximately evenly spread across the leagues.
If my goal is to keep 10% of X in a group, then the size of the group will be tied to X and won't necessarily be constant. Also, if my initial state is way out of alignment, I will have to adjust the size of the group to get to my desired %. I could do this all at once, but the shock might be too great. So maybe I take my time and spread it out over time.
I don't think we disagree, then. The Q&A I quoted - "evenly distributed", and "10/25/30/25/10" - is obviously talking about percentages. Nobody is talking about fixed numbers, I don't think.
My opinion is there is no desired X. Because of the way the system works too many accounts are dropping down most likely across all divisions. Squeezing the top end of every division which makes it harder to replace those that drop out of kyber.
If they are still trying to keep up with that goal, the conclusion would be that the overall GAC population has been shrinking.
Those aren't sizes by count, they're distributions. And as many others have already mentioned, Kyber (K1, in particular) was over-saturated with the initial GP rankings. So of course the head count in divisions will need to change to achieve the desired distribution.
Aren't the distributions percentages of head counts? What's the difference between "sizes by count" and "distributions?"
As for Kyber being over-saturated initially, I have always assumed that they picked the initial GP thresholds so that the population would be approximately evenly spread across the leagues.
If my goal is to keep 10% of X in a group, then the size of the group will be tied to X and won't necessarily be constant. Also, if my initial state is way out of alignment, I will have to adjust the size of the group to get to my desired %. I could do this all at once, but the shock might be too great. So maybe I take my time and spread it out over time.
I don't think we disagree, then. The Q&A I quoted - "evenly distributed", and "10/25/30/25/10" - is obviously talking about percentages. Nobody is talking about fixed numbers, I don't think.
You thought wrong :P
Maybe you meant evenly distributed. But strictly as written, your comment contradicted the quote you were sharing, which I found confusing.
Developer’s post, january 2022: ‘ We are very excited about the participation and outcome of the first run of our new Skill Rating based system, and hope that you all have enjoyed it as much as we have. In order to maintain health and balance of this new system, each Season will begin with a "Skill Squish" of sorts. This will ensure that the range of Skill Rating numbers won’t massively expand over time, and keeps the ladders competitive.
In general, this will not have any impact on your Grand Arena experience. This will not change what Division or League are in. It will not impact your ability to reach the next Division (IE if you could win your next round and move up to the division you will still do so). It will not affect your daily rewards payouts.’
Unfortunately, it does have an impact on players near division limits (yep, that’s me). Oh well, still more crystals that i gained before.
More actual data: players in GAC over time (no real change the last few recorded), players in kyber by real numbers, and players in kyber normalized so we can see how the division sizes change. Note: in week 1 we don’t see the effect of squish, so the best depiction of squish effects is looking at the week 1 to week 2 shift last month.
They appear to have made a deliberate choice to shrink Kyber this summer. The kyber1 shrinkage is on top of that…… kyber 1 keeps getting smaller and smaller.
Also note: this is separate than the screwup they made month 1 where kyber1 was 20% of kyber; they fixed that by moving the kyber boundary in Jan or Feb, and that data isn’t included here since it was a different system. This is all post-“fix”. Which they never actually admitted to, to the best of my knowledge.
More actual data: players in GAC over time (no real change the last few recorded), players in kyber by real numbers, and players in kyber normalized so we can see how the division sizes change. Note: in week 1 we don’t see the effect of squish, so the best depiction of squish effects is looking at the week 1 to week 2 shift last month.
Wow, thank you so much for this! May I ask where you got it or did you do it by yourself? If you did it by yourself I very much would be interested where you got the numbers from.
Note, I am not asking because I doubt the correctness of what you posted, I am really asking because I was searching for those numbers for a longer time now. 🙂
More actual data: players in GAC over time (no real change the last few recorded), players in kyber by real numbers, and players in kyber normalized so we can see how the division sizes change. Note: in week 1 we don’t see the effect of squish, so the best depiction of squish effects is looking at the week 1 to week 2 shift last month.
One chart you’re missing is “gac numbers by league before ‘join’”, during the off week.
More actual data: players in GAC over time (no real change the last few recorded), players in kyber by real numbers, and players in kyber normalized so we can see how the division sizes change. Note: in week 1 we don’t see the effect of squish, so the best depiction of squish effects is looking at the week 1 to week 2 shift last month.
One chart you’re missing is “gac numbers by league before ‘join’”, during the off week.
One chart you’re missing is “gac numbers by league before ‘join’”, during the off week.
I’m not sure what you mean by that? Are you looking for a measure of people who log in?
Rank isn’t meaningful for people who haven’t logged in, and CG assigned a rank to anyone who had logged in with the past…. It was either 6 months or a year or so? When new GAC started.
We used to be able to estimate logins in “old GAC” since under that system, everyone who logged in during the 24 hour join window was assigned a new rank for the month, and we could crowdsource finding the bottom of every division. It held remarkably steady around 400k for 2 years of data collection.
But under the new system, that doesn’t work. In some ways, “people who join GAC” is a better estimate anyway, at least if you want to home in on the engaged player base. We know that a lot of the 24 hour actives never moved out of carbonite under the previous system for example.
If you want longitudinal comparisons, you need to try to find a way to make sure you are comparing apples to apples, not oranges, and that is hard.
FWIW we also see ~1-2k variation week to week in the join numbers - hard to say if that is due to data acquisition or real variation in players, but that kind of movement is in the noise.
And I was actually kind of shocked that there are no significant differences in join numbers between 5v5 and 3v3 months - anecdotal evidence is that no one likes 3v3, but everyone is still joining for their crystal I guess!
If this info is true:
"Iirc around 16k people started in kyber 1 in season 1. It’s less than 6k now." by @Drathuk916
Sorry but you can't explain away the change in sizes simply by quitters.
Not entirely clear what you’re taking exception too. First season had around 343k according to swgoh.gg. I forget the poster before Scott over there but you can find it yourself. So around 34kish fewer accounts are signing up each season. Kyber league has shrunk from 88k to under 50k. So yes obviously not all accounts that have quit were in kyber league. However I certainly believe more than half of the accounts that no longer signup were in kyber league. This still leaves a sizable amount of accounts to be demoted through inactive play but still signing up and to much much lesser extent poor players being pushed out of kyber.
I agree the squish has had an intended effect of pushing people out of kyber or more correctly making it more difficult for players from aurodium to play well enough to replace those playing badly enough in kyber who earn a demotion. But I don’t think it is larger than the effect of quitting players is having.
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
Gotcha. I was trying to clarify my opinion is all.
And to @PeachyPeachSWGOH yes, get to benchmarks that can be moved every six months or so and join but never participate get a better baseline reward. It’s no different than getting a meta team and ignoring squad arena in the past. Well sure it’s giving out more crystals but everyone is already getting more than they use to.
Under this change an 8 million account that joins but doesn’t really participate gets a total of 8960 crystals in 28 days or 320 a day average. Yeah that seems like a lot but that’s still around half of what a k1 active participant gets. You can change the reward structure too if you like. The actual crystal reward doesn’t matter to me. What matters is making it easier for younger/smaller accounts to plan a path forward to a reasonable daily income while lessening their frustration with severely unbalanced matches due to lack of active participation. I mean there is an 11 million gp account in carbonite 5 for deity’s sake. How is that fun?
Well, I don't know about you, if it's between the amount of work one has to do in order to stay in K1, or half of the reward for doing practically nothing? I'd pick the latter.
You would need to steepen the reward ladder by a lot in order to incentivize people to strive for higher divisions. Something tells me CG will not drastically increase K1 payouts so it's the lower Kyber payouts that must drop for the ladder to be steeper. That would then put a lower cap on all the lower league payouts.
And the real problem of a gp floor is not the rewards, actually. It's that it doesn't solve the problem fundamentally, because instead of 11 mil accounts in Carbonite 5, you would just have 7.9 mil ones in Carbonite 5, and the 11 mil ones are just going to hang around Kyber 5. They would still be slacking off, and frustrating other players, except they'd be doing it for much better rewards.
The benchmark would be for each league. 6 million couldn’t drop out of aurodium 4 million chromium 2 million bronzium. It’s the compromise position between the old system and the new system. Your skill ranking can get you into any league or division but your gp prevents you from dropping too far. This is all randomly picked numbers.
So...........I started the new GAC in A3 and I'm currently at 6.6 million. That would leave very little wiggle room with your interpretation. This all ties in ok with those that are competent. However, what about the players that are above average in GP, but not competent?
What happens to them. The players that legitimately played, but fell to Chromium or Bronzium? Under your system it's tough luck.
It's so freaking simple. Deal with those that aren't actively playing and falling and only them. Once that happens see how the land lies.
There's no need to totally go into a GP system; especially for players that didn't suggesting changes that didn't play/understand the old system.
Oh and @Lumiya what actually is your standpoint? Any post that is anti the current GAC, no matter the issue you like...........even mine.
There are issues, yes there are. However, tweaks are needed, not a total overhaul.........in my opinon.
If this info is true:
"Iirc around 16k people started in kyber 1 in season 1. It’s less than 6k now." by @Drathuk916
Sorry but you can't explain away the change in sizes simply by quitters.
Not entirely clear what you’re taking exception too. First season had around 343k according to swgoh.gg. I forget the poster before Scott over there but you can find it yourself. So around 34kish fewer accounts are signing up each season. Kyber league has shrunk from 88k to under 50k. So yes obviously not all accounts that have quit were in kyber league. However I certainly believe more than half of the accounts that no longer signup were in kyber league. This still leaves a sizable amount of accounts to be demoted through inactive play but still signing up and to much much lesser extent poor players being pushed out of kyber.
I agree the squish has had an intended effect of pushing people out of kyber or more correctly making it more difficult for players from aurodium to play well enough to replace those playing badly enough in kyber who earn a demotion. But I don’t think it is larger than the effect of quitting players is having.
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
Gotcha. I was trying to clarify my opinion is all.
And to @PeachyPeachSWGOH yes, get to benchmarks that can be moved every six months or so and join but never participate get a better baseline reward. It’s no different than getting a meta team and ignoring squad arena in the past. Well sure it’s giving out more crystals but everyone is already getting more than they use to.
Under this change an 8 million account that joins but doesn’t really participate gets a total of 8960 crystals in 28 days or 320 a day average. Yeah that seems like a lot but that’s still around half of what a k1 active participant gets. You can change the reward structure too if you like. The actual crystal reward doesn’t matter to me. What matters is making it easier for younger/smaller accounts to plan a path forward to a reasonable daily income while lessening their frustration with severely unbalanced matches due to lack of active participation. I mean there is an 11 million gp account in carbonite 5 for deity’s sake. How is that fun?
Well, I don't know about you, if it's between the amount of work one has to do in order to stay in K1, or half of the reward for doing practically nothing? I'd pick the latter.
You would need to steepen the reward ladder by a lot in order to incentivize people to strive for higher divisions. Something tells me CG will not drastically increase K1 payouts so it's the lower Kyber payouts that must drop for the ladder to be steeper. That would then put a lower cap on all the lower league payouts.
And the real problem of a gp floor is not the rewards, actually. It's that it doesn't solve the problem fundamentally, because instead of 11 mil accounts in Carbonite 5, you would just have 7.9 mil ones in Carbonite 5, and the 11 mil ones are just going to hang around Kyber 5. They would still be slacking off, and frustrating other players, except they'd be doing it for much better rewards.
The benchmark would be for each league. 6 million couldn’t drop out of aurodium 4 million chromium 2 million bronzium. It’s the compromise position between the old system and the new system. Your skill ranking can get you into any league or division but your gp prevents you from dropping too far. This is all randomly picked numbers.
So...........I started the new GAC in A3 and I'm currently at 6.6 million. That would leave very little wiggle room with your interpretation. This all ties in ok with those that are competent. However, what about the players that are above average in GP, but not competent?
What happens to them. The players that legitimately played, but fell to Chromium or Bronzium? Under your system it's tough luck.
It's so freaking simple. Deal with those that aren't actively playing and falling and only them. Once that happens see how the land lies.
There's no need to totally go into a GP system; especially for players that didn't suggesting changes that didn't play/understand the old system.
Oh and @Lumiya what actually is your standpoint? Any post that is anti the current GAC, no matter the issue you like...........even mine.
There are issues, yes there are. However, tweaks are needed, not a total overhaul.........in my opinon.
First, you ignored my last sentence of “randomly picked numbers”. But at the same time there was some logic.
The above is from Scott over at swgoh.gg and the rows are in alphabetical order so audorium, bronzium carbonite, chromium, and kyber As you can see the randomly picked number is basically the average for each league gp wise. I also am suggesting a floor not a cap. Your 6.6 million account could still climb to kyber 1 but couldn’t drop below aurodium 5.
The logic is to group accounts that join but don’t attack in division 5 of their appropriate gp level league. If you’re active and in division 5 you should have an easy time climbing out as your opponent is far more likely to not participate.
I don’t see how this suggestion would ever create a scenario where an active account is in a tough luck situation. I also don’t see cg even considering it because it means more crystals and to them I think they believe that automatically means less money. This could very likely be true, but I think player retention both from active and non active joiners would be higher and therefore a wider pool of people who might spend.
"I don’t see how this suggestion would ever create a scenario where an active account is in a tough luck situation."
It absolutely would. I would say I'm above average/well above average power/ability for my GP. I started in A3 and climbed to just hitting K3. However, since then I've fallen and climbed, fallen and climbed. Hitting a low of A3 (once) again and peak of K4 (twice)
Those well below average ability for the the GP are totally screwed by your system.
I really can't see why we can't deal with players that are falling because of inactivity and see where the land lies after that.
GP really isn't accurate in determining how well a player does in GAC. Especially the further they fall, and the less of their GP they can use.
Replies
Division 1 is for the top 10% of the league. If the squish moves you out of div 1 you are not in the top 10% and have not earned those rewards.
They don't apply the squish until next season starts, so you just had a week of getting more rewards than you really should have had. CG be so generous.
@Winterwolves correct. The squish doesn’t force you out of the league but it makes it harder for players to get promoted into kyber to replace those that play themselves out of the league.
yes they likely started with too many in kyber. I’m not sure if this was a mistake or because they couldn’t be sure how many people would signup in the first few seasons or if they intended to have unbalanced leagues. I know they’ve stated they wanted a 10/25/30/25/10 distribution among divisions but I don’t recall them saying leagues should be equal.
If they do want leagues even they’ve overcorrected. 20% of 343kish (season 1) is 68.6k vs 88 k actual for kyber league. 20* of 309k (last season) is 61.8 k vs 49159 for kyber league.
Finally one last comment, while I don’t think your gp should cap how high you can climb, I’m beginning to believe there should be a floor. For example once you reach 8 million gp maybe you can’t be lower than k5. This would serve multiple purposes:
A) Reward players for achieving a gp benchmark
C) prevents inactive but signed up accounts from ruining the fun for younger accounts
Haha dito.
I was in Aurodium 3 for quite a while. If what you say were true, I would not have lost skill points before last GAC started (was in A3, my SR got squished)
Before this season started, I was in A4 and got squished again
According to you and others, I would have gained points pushing me towards 3 instead of losing points.
Also I think those graphs speak for themselves.
I lost more rounds than I won, I am now the second season one division lower, so 50/50 doesn't hold up either, which makes sense because the system gives me opponents that should be "winnable" after losing but if those accounts are still bigger, because they dropped aswell further, the theory is disproven by reality.
So once an account reaches 8m, they can just kick back and enjoy k5 rewards forever?
I didn't try to address you directly, but rather commented assuming your info is true. I assumed flat distribution of quitters from all leagues. You might be right that quitting top heavy might be more prominent. Still the end result is it has shrunk to %38 of it's initial size which is a pretty drastic change.
If you take the people that don't belong in Kyber and the people that don't really participate in GAC in addition to the quitting (which is almost definitely top heavy [anecdotal]), then it's hardly surprising.
Those aren't sizes by count, they're distributions. And as many others have already mentioned, Kyber (K1, in particular) was over-saturated with the initial GP rankings. So of course the head count in divisions will need to change to achieve the desired distribution.
Gotcha. I was trying to clarify my opinion is all.
And to @PeachyPeachSWGOH yes, get to benchmarks that can be moved every six months or so and join but never participate get a better baseline reward. It’s no different than getting a meta team and ignoring squad arena in the past. Well sure it’s giving out more crystals but everyone is already getting more than they use to.
Under this change an 8 million account that joins but doesn’t really participate gets a total of 8960 crystals in 28 days or 320 a day average. Yeah that seems like a lot but that’s still around half of what a k1 active participant gets. You can change the reward structure too if you like. The actual crystal reward doesn’t matter to me. What matters is making it easier for younger/smaller accounts to plan a path forward to a reasonable daily income while lessening their frustration with severely unbalanced matches due to lack of active participation. I mean there is an 11 million gp account in carbonite 5 for deity’s sake. How is that fun?
Aren't the distributions percentages of head counts? What's the difference between "sizes by count" and "distributions?"
As for Kyber being over-saturated initially, I have always assumed that they picked the initial GP thresholds so that the population would be approximately evenly spread across the leagues.
Well, I don't know about you, if it's between the amount of work one has to do in order to stay in K1, or half of the reward for doing practically nothing? I'd pick the latter.
You would need to steepen the reward ladder by a lot in order to incentivize people to strive for higher divisions. Something tells me CG will not drastically increase K1 payouts so it's the lower Kyber payouts that must drop for the ladder to be steeper. That would then put a lower cap on all the lower league payouts.
And the real problem of a gp floor is not the rewards, actually. It's that it doesn't solve the problem fundamentally, because instead of 11 mil accounts in Carbonite 5, you would just have 7.9 mil ones in Carbonite 5, and the 11 mil ones are just going to hang around Kyber 5. They would still be slacking off, and frustrating other players, except they'd be doing it for much better rewards.
The benchmark would be for each league. 6 million couldn’t drop out of aurodium 4 million chromium 2 million bronzium. It’s the compromise position between the old system and the new system. Your skill ranking can get you into any league or division but your gp prevents you from dropping too far. This is all randomly picked numbers.
The goal would be to have a more obvious route to increasing your crystal income. Right now the average player only really increases their income through players above them dropping from actively participating or out right quitting This remains true until you get all six soon 7 gls as jabba becomes more common.
If the details get set perfectly, I would hope you'd see players see more gp appropriate matches with fewer matches against non participating members. Divisions 1-4 in each league should largely remain unchanged in terms of participating opponents but the removal of larger accounts that only participate when they get opponents they can’t lose too. Instead they’ll be dumped into division 5 of their gp appropriate division.
The obvious retort is giving players 320 crystals a day(at most) for doing nothing but building an 8 million account whether ftp or whaling should have some benefit and you can still double that income through participating.
If my goal is to keep 10% of X in a group, then the size of the group will be tied to X and won't necessarily be constant. Also, if my initial state is way out of alignment, I will have to adjust the size of the group to get to my desired %. I could do this all at once, but the shock might be too great. So maybe I take my time and spread it out over time.
I don't think we disagree, then. The Q&A I quoted - "evenly distributed", and "10/25/30/25/10" - is obviously talking about percentages. Nobody is talking about fixed numbers, I don't think.
You thought wrong :P
Maybe you meant evenly distributed. But strictly as written, your comment contradicted the quote you were sharing, which I found confusing.
Fun times
‘ We are very excited about the participation and outcome of the first run of our new Skill Rating based system, and hope that you all have enjoyed it as much as we have. In order to maintain health and balance of this new system, each Season will begin with a "Skill Squish" of sorts. This will ensure that the range of Skill Rating numbers won’t massively expand over time, and keeps the ladders competitive.
In general, this will not have any impact on your Grand Arena experience. This will not change what Division or League are in. It will not impact your ability to reach the next Division (IE if you could win your next round and move up to the division you will still do so). It will not affect your daily rewards payouts.’
Unfortunately, it does have an impact on players near division limits (yep, that’s me). Oh well, still more crystals that i gained before.
I was in the pool!
Wow, thank you so much for this! May I ask where you got it or did you do it by yourself? If you did it by yourself I very much would be interested where you got the numbers from.
Note, I am not asking because I doubt the correctness of what you posted, I am really asking because I was searching for those numbers for a longer time now. 🙂
One chart you’re missing is “gac numbers by league before ‘join’”, during the off week.
I don't think anyone can pull that data.
I’m not sure what you mean by that? Are you looking for a measure of people who log in?
Rank isn’t meaningful for people who haven’t logged in, and CG assigned a rank to anyone who had logged in with the past…. It was either 6 months or a year or so? When new GAC started.
We used to be able to estimate logins in “old GAC” since under that system, everyone who logged in during the 24 hour join window was assigned a new rank for the month, and we could crowdsource finding the bottom of every division. It held remarkably steady around 400k for 2 years of data collection.
But under the new system, that doesn’t work. In some ways, “people who join GAC” is a better estimate anyway, at least if you want to home in on the engaged player base. We know that a lot of the 24 hour actives never moved out of carbonite under the previous system for example.
If you want longitudinal comparisons, you need to try to find a way to make sure you are comparing apples to apples, not oranges, and that is hard.
FWIW we also see ~1-2k variation week to week in the join numbers - hard to say if that is due to data acquisition or real variation in players, but that kind of movement is in the noise.
And I was actually kind of shocked that there are no significant differences in join numbers between 5v5 and 3v3 months - anecdotal evidence is that no one likes 3v3, but everyone is still joining for their crystal I guess!
So...........I started the new GAC in A3 and I'm currently at 6.6 million. That would leave very little wiggle room with your interpretation. This all ties in ok with those that are competent. However, what about the players that are above average in GP, but not competent?
What happens to them. The players that legitimately played, but fell to Chromium or Bronzium? Under your system it's tough luck.
It's so freaking simple. Deal with those that aren't actively playing and falling and only them. Once that happens see how the land lies.
There's no need to totally go into a GP system; especially for players that didn't suggesting changes that didn't play/understand the old system.
Oh and @Lumiya what actually is your standpoint? Any post that is anti the current GAC, no matter the issue you like...........even mine.
There are issues, yes there are. However, tweaks are needed, not a total overhaul.........in my opinon.
First, you ignored my last sentence of “randomly picked numbers”. But at the same time there was some logic.
The above is from Scott over at swgoh.gg and the rows are in alphabetical order so audorium, bronzium carbonite, chromium, and kyber As you can see the randomly picked number is basically the average for each league gp wise. I also am suggesting a floor not a cap. Your 6.6 million account could still climb to kyber 1 but couldn’t drop below aurodium 5.
The logic is to group accounts that join but don’t attack in division 5 of their appropriate gp level league. If you’re active and in division 5 you should have an easy time climbing out as your opponent is far more likely to not participate.
I don’t see how this suggestion would ever create a scenario where an active account is in a tough luck situation. I also don’t see cg even considering it because it means more crystals and to them I think they believe that automatically means less money. This could very likely be true, but I think player retention both from active and non active joiners would be higher and therefore a wider pool of people who might spend.
It absolutely would. I would say I'm above average/well above average power/ability for my GP. I started in A3 and climbed to just hitting K3. However, since then I've fallen and climbed, fallen and climbed. Hitting a low of A3 (once) again and peak of K4 (twice)
Those well below average ability for the the GP are totally screwed by your system.
I really can't see why we can't deal with players that are falling because of inactivity and see where the land lies after that.
GP really isn't accurate in determining how well a player does in GAC. Especially the further they fall, and the less of their GP they can use.