The question is what are we, as a community, going to do about it? Are you arguing that after a toon has been out for a while that the gear recipe changes so that it no longer includes pre-g12 Kyros? Because each gear piece changes the stats of a toon, and if you change the gear recipe then that means that the character's stats change after X amount of time. Heck, I don't even know if this is possible in game without causing serious chaos.
I've tried to provide general support and hope b/c I don't see a way to address "old toons" who require Kyros. But if you have a specific plan that you want CG to implement we can debate that, and advocate for it if we agree. There's just no plan here.
So what would be helpful to you, besides general info and support?
I do believe as well that all long time players understand roughly what the kyro grind feel like.
Back before Kyro all toon progress was gated by a combination of carbs, stun guns, stun cuffs and to some extent golden eyeballs as well.
The introduction of Kyro have lead to the removal (more or less) of that particular bottleneck.
Considering for how long those other pieces were bottlenecks I think it’s premature to expect any change and a new gear piece to replace Kyro as a bottleneck.
I wouldn’t expect CG to change Kyro to any meaningful extent as a bottleneck in the near future, when they do it’s probably going to be in response to sub-relic to become completely meaningless in power level.
Pinch points are okay- even necessary. With multiple characters requiring the same gear we need to make choices. If we have enough gear and relic mats available to take everyone instantly to max- then there isn’t really any choice happening or roster differentiation. If you want a game where everyone has exactly the same roster…rock, paper, scissors is still popular!
I'm not suggesting changing characters requirements retrospectively, I agree that would be chaos! I'm suggesting (and I'm happy to concede that it might not be time just yet), that Kyro pieces should be replaced with a new piece on new characters. That way characters that are 3/4 years old aren't stuck behind the same bottleneck as the latest important characters.
CG are obviously conscious of newer player journeys hense LSB's and economy changes over the last few years etc. I'm just suggesting that this is also part of the equation. Since I started playing early 2020 (just after kyro's I believe?) we've had easily 80 characters released. The change to the game since then and the meta shift is huge. I'm not personally bogged down by kyro's, still a struggle mind. However it is healthy for the game when there is a pathway for new players to catch up.
Rock, paper, scissors comment is a little whatever, nobody is suggesting it should be easy for everyone to have everything given to them. Bottlenecks are important just need to be kept reflective of where the game is at. Relics have been released since kyro's, with R10 inevitably around the corner...
However it is healthy for the game when there is a pathway for new players to catch up.
I agree. I have frequently argued for this, actually. The idea of no new Kyros so that people can work simultaneously on whatever new gear bottleneck replaces them AND clearing out old Kyro requirements at the same time has some merit. It would probably work best if the new gear only replaced some of the Kyros on new toons. A lot of mediocre marquee toons still require 400 gyros total (100 for the g12 finisher, 300 just to get to g12). Changing that to 200 of the new gear, so that there's still 100 Kyros to reach g12 and 100 for the g12 finisher sounds relatively balanced, but it all depends on what the economy is for the new gear. As we currently have a diverse group of sources for Kyros, what happens to the higher-gp players? Right now we go straight to g12 as soon as a toon hits 7*, and with a little advanced planning or for the better orders, we go straight to relics, too. Otherwise we hit relics in a few days after we realize what g12 pieces we're missing and go grab them.
While this change benefits lower gp players, unlike some catch-up solutions, this one seems like it would actually make life difficult for higher gp players. If the goal is hurrying lower-gp players along to useful relics that's one thing. If the goal is slowing higher-gp players down, that's another.
So what is the goal here, and how do you do the one without the other (unless you **want** to do both speeding up lower-gp development while slowing higher-gp development)?
Yeah I agree that it could be gradually introduced, makes sense - for what little our opinions matter!!
Certainly not my thought process or desire to slow down higher GP players. I think with any change there's always a short term pain. Initially higher GP players would be at a bit of a loss in terms of resources but presuming there are plenty of places to farm/aquire the new piece then before long they would be back to having stashes.
I think it depends on the intention CG has for a bottleneck on those kind of pieces (current or any new way). Not meaning that in a critism of CG. If it's specifically aimed to affect players not so far into their journey then the status quo would quickly return to normal. If it's aimed to slow everyone down then it currently doesn't do that anyway? Just the players they are actively trying to make it easier for currently. Tbf I think the answer to their intention kinda shapes whichever argument.
This is why I was saying that the new "3rd Kyro / Gold Kyro / G12 Only Kyro" only be used for G12 Finishers.
If you put out new toons that only need the occasional "Old Kyro" for G8-11....
(IE. 100 Each Max not 500 like Mon or JKCK are!)
AND you combine that w/ doubling the Kyros like you did the other Purple gear already, then, you start to ease that early Kyro Crunch for new players.
If a new character only needs 50-100 of each of the BC/SP & then 100 of the "Finisher Kyro" it won't be too bad.
That would be like having to farm 150-200 total Kyro today which.
Your still going to have teams like Inq & BB that suck up a ton of them & the 8 current GLs, but, you'd have double the income for those & everyone would be using the new G12 finisher that would still be singles & limited areas to purchase to create a pinch point.
Kyrotech grind is real, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel, because Kyrotech income exceeds the amount required by released characters.
You say 20 new characters a year? That is 1.66 a month, which comes out to about 670 kyros on new characters each month.
Kyro income per month starts with
90 from dailies
160 from ABs
about 80 from TB
About 60-70 from TW?
40 from GCs
So that can be 400 a month without energy or currency. Supplement with kyro purchases with GET and GAC currency, along with energy farming and you can outpace newly introduced units.
Of course, it takes a LONG time to reach that point, especially for growing accounts that dont have all the chase units yet, but there is a (small) light at the end.
That only applies if you're caught up. As someone who just finished Inquisitors (that was TON of kyro's) and moved on to LV - i had to do 4/5 bad batch, embo, and a couple others. Not all had pre XIII kryo's, but BB had a ton. Finally get through that, and still have 8 characters to get from XII to XIII, so 800 more to go.
That's not a complaint, just a fact of where I sit which has to be far more common to the player base than those who are all caught up. So, yeah, i look at my layout for LV and think i'm getting close, then i see 800 kryo's to go and think 'ok, not so close'. Then at that point i'll have to go through the SD fight again. It feels great when you get through a GL, but it really makes you want to say 'who else can I work on that doesn't require kyro's'. I'm just approaching 9M, so there's still stuff I can work on that way, though not too much that makes an impact.
I get they want a limiter, but it limits the vast majority of the player base in a major way.
I get they want a limiter, but it limits the vast majority of the player base in a major way.
Yes. And maybe that's the right call, and maybe it's not. It depends very much on the goal of the bottleneck and whether in practice it helps the game meets that goal or is mistargeted. If we knew what CG's goals were for the kyro bottleneck it would be easier to argue for/against b/c we could muster actual evidence that it was or was not meeting that goal.
As it is, we're limited in a frustrating way to talking about how much this bottleneck is bothering us. I wish Devs would chime in to threads like these and explain the reasoning CG has for this or that design choice, but on the other hand I do get that then they would just have people on the internet debating every single one of their choices, and that's probably no fun for them.
I get they want a limiter, but it limits the vast majority of the player base in a major way.
Yes. And maybe that's the right call, and maybe it's not. It depends very much on the goal of the bottleneck and whether in practice it helps the game meets that goal or is mistargeted. If we knew what CG's goals were for the kyro bottleneck it would be easier to argue for/against b/c we could muster actual evidence that it was or was not meeting that goal.
As it is, we're limited in a frustrating way to talking about how much this bottleneck is bothering us. I wish Devs would chime in to threads like these and explain the reasoning CG has for this or that design choice, but on the other hand I do get that then they would just have people on the internet debating every single one of their choices, and that's probably no fun for them.
I always accepted it as part of the business model. Bottlenecks exist to fuel microtransactions, which keep the game running. If it wasn't kyros it would be something else. The advantage to having one or two items as a bottleneck over many is actually in the player's favor as there is no need to chase a quantity of a unique item for each unit. There's less waste and more efficiency.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.
As a developer, the question would seem to be affordability. Would you rather have 10 people spend 10,000? or 10,000 people spend 10. Looking at this game it seems clear the devs much prefer 10 people spend 10,000 instead.
For the overwhelming majority of the players, i'd bet they no longer even look at packs, etc. Why? You see a new, interesting pack and it's 50, 75, or a 100 bucks. To put that in perspective, a brand new triple A title for PC or consoles is 60-70 bucks. They're no value for most people in backs because to them, they've vastly overpriced. At least for you triple A money, you always have the game. That's not even a full toon here.
While I focused exclusively on getting Aphra reqs up to r5, I used every currency I could to get them except for grand arena tokens, which would have been nice to have if only I wasn’t crap at that game mode. Guild tokens were very useful too.
...I require a new ventilator -- this lab smells of bacon. Bacon is for sycophants, and products of incest. - Patricia Tannis, Borderlands 2
I hear people's point that once you get far enough in the game then the struggle becomes less or not a problem. It is about perspectives.
Though I would argue that if you've been playing for a long time then you're facing that pinch one at a time. As in a new character is released and you've only gotta get enough for that 1 character opposed to the mountain of kryos newer players have to tackle. I get it's rarely going to be quite as simple as that but hopefully you get my point.
I suppose my original point is more that it seems silly that older characters are still hit with that pinch to get to gear 12.
Very true. I remember when getting just 20 Chiewab Hyposyringes was a pain. Wish it was that easy for kyros.
...I require a new ventilator -- this lab smells of bacon. Bacon is for sycophants, and products of incest. - Patricia Tannis, Borderlands 2
Jan 2016 and 13+ mil here and only bottle necks for me are Relic 8 and 9 and Omi's. That's it. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I will say, only spend what you get monthly on what character is most important at the time and you will keep moving forward.
It depends where you are in the game. If you are playing in the 11m+ range, kryos are not a problem, relic material and especially signal data is. Kryos come from zeffo and tb and tw rewards. What you are constantly missing is signal data. most of the accounts only need kryos for new released chars and those you get relatively fast.
For smaller accounts, the world looks much differently.
Interestingly as an 11mil player kyro is my bottleneck and signal data and relic materials are not
But the you clear the kyro bottleneck and the signal data would soon become a bottleneck.
How many toons do you have that are sub g-12? I have an all-g12 roster except for toons below 7*, but they have all their kyros except the g12 finisher as well.
I ask just because I'm curious about how play styles affect this.
With my play style the result is that while they will continue to release new toons with new Kyro requirements, to finish taking all the current toons (including Darth Bane) g12 I only need ~4200 kyros. And I have ~900 on hand. I could race ahead with more g12 finishers for toons who still need other g12 gear, but I would rather have the Kyros sticking around for surprise releases of toons. And since none of the toons I have at g12 is a real priority (some of them are nice-to-relic, but not real priorities), I'm just banking g12 pieces against the day when they drop a toon whose kit benefits from including an older unit. If I ever have 3 copies of the same gear piece, I place that on my highest priority g12 unit that needs that piece, but I always have 2 copies of everything sitting around in case they're needed unexpectedly.
With this strategy, I'm mostly waiting on purple g12 gear to boost toons to relic, and signal data is mostly fine.
But if your 11M is built on a large number of r8s and r9s and you still have multiple toons below g12, I can see kyros being a problem. I don't do that. I generally don't relic a toon past r5 without a reason. And it's easy to have a reason to take them up higher than that, but I never do it just because. My JML, for instance, is still r8. I know that r9 would make him quite a bit better, but he does everything I need right now, so he stays r8 until there's an actual reason other than "he could be better". But taking hordes of toons to r5/r6 can tax different resources, so it's all a compromise.
The question is what are we, as a community, going to do about it? Are you arguing that after a toon has been out for a while that the gear recipe changes so that it no longer includes pre-g12 Kyros? Because each gear piece changes the stats of a toon, and if you change the gear recipe then that means that the character's stats change after X amount of time. Heck, I don't even know if this is possible in game without causing serious chaos.
I have 1 option that at least going forward I'd like to see them do more of.
And its a bit late since Purple Gear is easier now but its just something I found a couple years into playing.
Stop Putting M3 Carbs as stand alone pieces on new characters.
I get that they are part of a Mk5 Stun Gun, and a Mk-5 Detonator, and by extension also part of even bigger pieces like M6 Stun Gun or some G12 pieces.
But I'd like to see at least HALF if not ALL of the M3 stand alone pieces instead call for the MARK-1 Carbanti.
It gives you the same stats & then some, and its 5 blue shards to make it & I have boatloads of them in the bank.
Better Stats, Easier to Get, and not nearly enough characters in the game even use this piece.
Can't change the old characters w/o major issues, though, honestly, I think this one might be fairly minimal.
But we can change all future characters which would at least allow for your M3 Carbs to be used for the combo items that call for them.
This on top of my earlier idea of a 3rd Kyro that is ONLY for the G12 Finisher & then double-drops for 2 G7-11 Kyro Prod/Comp types would help ease the crunch for everyone.
I guess the game is about perspectives! Looking at the above comment about carbs, I'd guess it's a newer player - or newer then me at least, apologies if your not!
Carbs, when you start earning enough currency through guild and raid tokens, only become an inconvenience when they aren't available in the store.
I suppose I would repeat the point that they actively made it that way to clear the path through purple gear.
Bottlenecks are an important mechanism in the game and clearly exist throughout the game in different intended ways. Personally I'm much more content with that when it's bottlenecked to slow reaching the top (relics) or limit the new stuff.
Replies
The question is what are we, as a community, going to do about it? Are you arguing that after a toon has been out for a while that the gear recipe changes so that it no longer includes pre-g12 Kyros? Because each gear piece changes the stats of a toon, and if you change the gear recipe then that means that the character's stats change after X amount of time. Heck, I don't even know if this is possible in game without causing serious chaos.
I've tried to provide general support and hope b/c I don't see a way to address "old toons" who require Kyros. But if you have a specific plan that you want CG to implement we can debate that, and advocate for it if we agree. There's just no plan here.
So what would be helpful to you, besides general info and support?
Back before Kyro all toon progress was gated by a combination of carbs, stun guns, stun cuffs and to some extent golden eyeballs as well.
The introduction of Kyro have lead to the removal (more or less) of that particular bottleneck.
Considering for how long those other pieces were bottlenecks I think it’s premature to expect any change and a new gear piece to replace Kyro as a bottleneck.
I wouldn’t expect CG to change Kyro to any meaningful extent as a bottleneck in the near future, when they do it’s probably going to be in response to sub-relic to become completely meaningless in power level.
CG are obviously conscious of newer player journeys hense LSB's and economy changes over the last few years etc. I'm just suggesting that this is also part of the equation. Since I started playing early 2020 (just after kyro's I believe?) we've had easily 80 characters released. The change to the game since then and the meta shift is huge. I'm not personally bogged down by kyro's, still a struggle mind. However it is healthy for the game when there is a pathway for new players to catch up.
Rock, paper, scissors comment is a little whatever, nobody is suggesting it should be easy for everyone to have everything given to them. Bottlenecks are important just need to be kept reflective of where the game is at. Relics have been released since kyro's, with R10 inevitably around the corner...
I agree. I have frequently argued for this, actually. The idea of no new Kyros so that people can work simultaneously on whatever new gear bottleneck replaces them AND clearing out old Kyro requirements at the same time has some merit. It would probably work best if the new gear only replaced some of the Kyros on new toons. A lot of mediocre marquee toons still require 400 gyros total (100 for the g12 finisher, 300 just to get to g12). Changing that to 200 of the new gear, so that there's still 100 Kyros to reach g12 and 100 for the g12 finisher sounds relatively balanced, but it all depends on what the economy is for the new gear. As we currently have a diverse group of sources for Kyros, what happens to the higher-gp players? Right now we go straight to g12 as soon as a toon hits 7*, and with a little advanced planning or for the better orders, we go straight to relics, too. Otherwise we hit relics in a few days after we realize what g12 pieces we're missing and go grab them.
While this change benefits lower gp players, unlike some catch-up solutions, this one seems like it would actually make life difficult for higher gp players. If the goal is hurrying lower-gp players along to useful relics that's one thing. If the goal is slowing higher-gp players down, that's another.
So what is the goal here, and how do you do the one without the other (unless you **want** to do both speeding up lower-gp development while slowing higher-gp development)?
Certainly not my thought process or desire to slow down higher GP players. I think with any change there's always a short term pain. Initially higher GP players would be at a bit of a loss in terms of resources but presuming there are plenty of places to farm/aquire the new piece then before long they would be back to having stashes.
I think it depends on the intention CG has for a bottleneck on those kind of pieces (current or any new way). Not meaning that in a critism of CG. If it's specifically aimed to affect players not so far into their journey then the status quo would quickly return to normal. If it's aimed to slow everyone down then it currently doesn't do that anyway? Just the players they are actively trying to make it easier for currently. Tbf I think the answer to their intention kinda shapes whichever argument.
If you put out new toons that only need the occasional "Old Kyro" for G8-11....
(IE. 100 Each Max not 500 like Mon or JKCK are!)
AND you combine that w/ doubling the Kyros like you did the other Purple gear already, then, you start to ease that early Kyro Crunch for new players.
If a new character only needs 50-100 of each of the BC/SP & then 100 of the "Finisher Kyro" it won't be too bad.
That would be like having to farm 150-200 total Kyro today which.
Your still going to have teams like Inq & BB that suck up a ton of them & the 8 current GLs, but, you'd have double the income for those & everyone would be using the new G12 finisher that would still be singles & limited areas to purchase to create a pinch point.
That only applies if you're caught up. As someone who just finished Inquisitors (that was TON of kyro's) and moved on to LV - i had to do 4/5 bad batch, embo, and a couple others. Not all had pre XIII kryo's, but BB had a ton. Finally get through that, and still have 8 characters to get from XII to XIII, so 800 more to go.
That's not a complaint, just a fact of where I sit which has to be far more common to the player base than those who are all caught up. So, yeah, i look at my layout for LV and think i'm getting close, then i see 800 kryo's to go and think 'ok, not so close'. Then at that point i'll have to go through the SD fight again. It feels great when you get through a GL, but it really makes you want to say 'who else can I work on that doesn't require kyro's'. I'm just approaching 9M, so there's still stuff I can work on that way, though not too much that makes an impact.
I get they want a limiter, but it limits the vast majority of the player base in a major way.
Yes. And maybe that's the right call, and maybe it's not. It depends very much on the goal of the bottleneck and whether in practice it helps the game meets that goal or is mistargeted. If we knew what CG's goals were for the kyro bottleneck it would be easier to argue for/against b/c we could muster actual evidence that it was or was not meeting that goal.
As it is, we're limited in a frustrating way to talking about how much this bottleneck is bothering us. I wish Devs would chime in to threads like these and explain the reasoning CG has for this or that design choice, but on the other hand I do get that then they would just have people on the internet debating every single one of their choices, and that's probably no fun for them.
I always accepted it as part of the business model. Bottlenecks exist to fuel microtransactions, which keep the game running. If it wasn't kyros it would be something else. The advantage to having one or two items as a bottleneck over many is actually in the player's favor as there is no need to chase a quantity of a unique item for each unit. There's less waste and more efficiency.
For the overwhelming majority of the players, i'd bet they no longer even look at packs, etc. Why? You see a new, interesting pack and it's 50, 75, or a 100 bucks. To put that in perspective, a brand new triple A title for PC or consoles is 60-70 bucks. They're no value for most people in backs because to them, they've vastly overpriced. At least for you triple A money, you always have the game. That's not even a full toon here.
Very true. I remember when getting just 20 Chiewab Hyposyringes was a pain. Wish it was that easy for kyros.
Interestingly as an 11mil player kyro is my bottleneck and signal data and relic materials are not
But the you clear the kyro bottleneck and the signal data would soon become a bottleneck.
How many toons do you have that are sub g-12? I have an all-g12 roster except for toons below 7*, but they have all their kyros except the g12 finisher as well.
I ask just because I'm curious about how play styles affect this.
I have 1 option that at least going forward I'd like to see them do more of.
And its a bit late since Purple Gear is easier now but its just something I found a couple years into playing.
Stop Putting M3 Carbs as stand alone pieces on new characters.
I get that they are part of a Mk5 Stun Gun, and a Mk-5 Detonator, and by extension also part of even bigger pieces like M6 Stun Gun or some G12 pieces.
But I'd like to see at least HALF if not ALL of the M3 stand alone pieces instead call for the MARK-1 Carbanti.
It gives you the same stats & then some, and its 5 blue shards to make it & I have boatloads of them in the bank.
https://swgoh.gg/db/gear/108/mk-3-carbanti-sensor-array/
https://swgoh.wiki/wiki/Mk_1_Carbanti_Sensor_Array
Better Stats, Easier to Get, and not nearly enough characters in the game even use this piece.
Can't change the old characters w/o major issues, though, honestly, I think this one might be fairly minimal.
But we can change all future characters which would at least allow for your M3 Carbs to be used for the combo items that call for them.
This on top of my earlier idea of a 3rd Kyro that is ONLY for the G12 Finisher & then double-drops for 2 G7-11 Kyro Prod/Comp types would help ease the crunch for everyone.
Carbs, when you start earning enough currency through guild and raid tokens, only become an inconvenience when they aren't available in the store.
I suppose I would repeat the point that they actively made it that way to clear the path through purple gear.
Bottlenecks are an important mechanism in the game and clearly exist throughout the game in different intended ways. Personally I'm much more content with that when it's bottlenecked to slow reaching the top (relics) or limit the new stuff.
Great conversation though.