The guild size should have been set to 10 if they were going to do this cr*p! How are the remaining members in the guild supposed to get stronger? I'm sitting at #20 in my guild as a contributor and I HAVE SPENT MONEY! This is stupid beyond belief!
Very well written. Completely agree, a guild should be battling against the raid, not each other. The rewards for all 50 players, as long as everyone actually entered the raid, should be the same. You can have leaderboards for damage dealt, damage taken, damage healed, most bebuffs inficted etc. for fun viewing, but they should have no bearing n the raid rewards. Maybe as lifetime achievements like the arena/GW completion (ie. take 1000,000 damage in raids or something) but not for competing against your own guild to get gear we all need.
There could be a small credit bonus or the like for top 3 damage, but the current set up feels really bad for a cooperative guild.
Unfortunately, the update was already coded up and released as a completed build. The devs that read this thread will most likely just continue following the schedule according how how they planned it. We players will eventually learn to "accept" what they give us. They'll just give us a clever explanation of their concept of Guilds to help us accept.
For example, the recent update with the health bars; there were hundreds of angry players that said they'll quit.....but over 80% of them are probably still playing this game even though it has become more frustrating. This is because they just needed time to accept the changes. The same thing's gonna happen with Guilds.
The devs are not going to be doing any reverse-engineering that may potentially cause the loss of projected profits (not even as marginal as a dingleberry) just to satisfy a handful of "righteous gamers". It was always about the money; nothing will be done unless something catastrophic occurs---a massive whale boycott.
To be fair, the devs have actually made some good changes in response to player feedback, and this one is a really important aspect of of fostering a healthy guild community.
To be fair, the devs have actually made some good changes in response to player feedback, and this one is a really important aspect of of fostering a healthy guild community.
Well, to be even more fair, they could reduce the 600 ENERGY requirement to 300 for us Free-To-Play players trying to eke out a living in blubberous oceans.
To be fair, the devs have actually made some good changes in response to player feedback, and this one is a really important aspect of of fostering a healthy guild community.
Well, to be even more fair, they could reduce the 600 ENERGY requirement to 300 for us Free-To-Play players trying to eek out a living in an ocean filled with blubber trails.
600 energy is: 240 daily energy + 120 daily cantina energy + 45*3 (135) free refreshes = 495. You only need 50 crystals to get 120 extra energy and get that bonus completed. You get 50 crystals between GW and the daily activities. All energy counts towards this limit.
To be fair, the devs have actually made some good changes in response to player feedback, and this one is a really important aspect of of fostering a healthy guild community.
Well, to be even more fair, they could reduce the 600 ENERGY requirement to 300 for us Free-To-Play players trying to eke out a living in blubberous oceans.
f2p you get 135 free bonus + 240 regular energy + 120 cantina for without paying, so 495. You need to do a single 50 crystal refresh to hit 600 a day for the daily guild contribution, and you get more than 50 free crystal a day.
To be fair, the devs have actually made some good changes in response to player feedback, and this one is a really important aspect of of fostering a healthy guild community.
Well, to be even more fair, they could reduce the 600 ENERGY requirement to 300 for us Free-To-Play players trying to eke out a living in blubberous oceans.
600 energy is: 240 daily energy + 120 daily cantina energy + 45*3 (135) free refreshes = 495. You only need 50 crystals to get 120 extra energy and get that bonus completed. You get 50 crystals between GW and the daily activities. All energy counts towards this limit.
Hmm, thanks for the calculations, so that's more Daily on top of Daily...all day; that's a lot of grinding and even tighter time-management to be had. I guess I'd have to plan to do Guild-related activities during the weekends or on days that I am not busy. Guilds are clearly for the hardcore indeed.
I would even go so far as to say the daily rewards tiers are too steep.
Guilds should be people finding people with the similar goals and attitudes toward gaming, and then working together. This creates a team where people are excited to log in and take part of. This joy is what keeps people coming back to a game every day, even when the amount of new content is small. I am sure many of you have played a game where you stuck around after it had stopped being fun only because your guild was awesome. The current system doesn't incentivize that at all.
Take right now for example. My guild is already over the threshold for cantina energy for the day, and I am seriously thinking about putting a bunch of crystals in to cantina just to move up the leaderboard. When, in all honesty, it would be better for me, and for my guild, if I used those crystals to farm more gear. And you know what, after I jump up, someone else drops down to my position and has the same thought process.
This system is purely a means of getting people to spend more money on crystals, nothing else. Having to compete with my teammates to this extreme will suck the joy out of being in a guild. Sure the people at the top deserve more rewards, they put more in. However, it should be at a level where the people in the middle of the pack aren't resentful / regretful. It should make people say 'yup, they earned that and I am glad they got more because they do more'. However, as it is, the system tells members in the bottom 2/3rds of a guild that they would be better off somewhere else. It just shouldn't be that way.
@darthscott you chose 50 people that you want in your guild...the top contributors don't deserve more of a loot by any means...all 50 are hand picked and should get the same reward...if they don't contribute enough...they get kicked...but let's take your guild for example...everybody spends a ton of money...should you get worse rewards at #40 than the guy at #5 when both of you maybe spend on average 5x what other top players spend? Like nae said....everybody gets the same boxes ...the rewards in the boxes are random anyway...
@darthscott you chose 50 people that you want in your guild...the top contributors don't deserve more of a loot by any means...all 50 are hand picked and should get the same reward...if they don't contribute enough...they get kicked...but let's take your guild for example...everybody spends a ton of money...should you get worse rewards at #40 than the guy at #5 when both of you maybe spend on average 5x what other top players spend? Like nae said....everybody gets the same boxes ...the rewards in the boxes are random anyway...
@twist - Yeah, as I mentioned in the top, I was extending the discussion to the daily rewards as well. Totally agree with everything in Naec's post about the raid rewards.
This post is quite long. This is not something I take lightly, and I realize this is a good 5 to 10 minutes of reading. If you skim through it, thanks for at least trying. If you take the time to read the whole thing, thank you. No matter what though, please understand that it is not my intention to shed light on this topic from the angle of someone that cares about being at the top. I'm speaking on behalf of an entire group of people, and we all feel very strongly about this. A lot of us are P2P, it's true, but we're also passionate gamers that are active in more games across more genres than you probably expect.
This post is being written by someone that enjoys raiding as a guild.
Like many others, this recent patch was the make or break moment for my interest in SWGOH as a whole. I've been a member of Team Instinct for months now, and they've more or less become the reason why I play this game at all. We keep up to date on everything CG feeds us, and we've been focused solely on maximizing our rosters while patiently waiting for Guilds and Raids for months, and we couldn't be more excited to actually try some real content in this game.
Raiding has always been, first and foremost, about playing with your friends. Sure, pick up raids exist; they can be a means to an end in scooping up some last second loot when you need it. There aren't nearly as many people out there with memorable PUG raid experiences as there are those with genuine lasting memories of the games they played at times in their lives with groups of people they felt at home with, though.
My personal experiences with raiding include the tried and true World of Warcraft for many of it's expansions, SW:TOR for most of it's early life, and most recently Wildstar, a game with the most punishing and brutal raiding I've ever seen to date. No matter the title or style of raid though, one thing was always constant – raiding was something you couldn't do alone. Raiding was something that meant coordination, teamwork and effort. It usually wasn't easy, you usually weren't enjoying countless wipes, and you certainly had a difficult time explaining to friends and family why you weren't available to go out that night, but you sure did feel that addicting adrenaline rush every time you beat a new progression boss.
It's difficult to really pin down expectations for “Raiding” in what is very much a freemium model game. Sure, SWGOH is extremely merciful to it's free to play crowd, in ways some would argue are very difficult to find in rival games, but at it's core is still that grinning little devil of freemium addiction. Regardless, the notion of Raiding carries with it a very real sense of camaraderie with your guild mates – it's something a lot of us have many, many hours of experience with across a vast collection of games. When we hear the word, it instantly triggers many thoughts about where the possibilities could go. How does it play out in a mobile setting, though? Is it the same sense of collaboration and effort, or is it just another freemium-designed cash grab?
Well, early signs have pointed to the idea of it just maybe being something more engaging than one would initially expect from a mobile offering. We're genuinely excited for it. The concept seems fun, the encounter seems to have a lot of rules and gimmicks in place, and it FEELS like raiding should feel... preparations and comp tinkering, studying abilities and their cooldowns and devising strategies to best suit different situations... all of the pieces are here. This could actually work!
However, the rewards are a glaring issue for us.
Here's the thing – I understand the need for any freemium game to keep it's pay wall in place. I get it. Everything can't be for free, people need to pay to keep the engine moving, it's nothing new. Anyone here from the smallest minnow to the biggest blubbery whale understands that money has to keep coming in. What we are saying though, and what we're saying louder than we've ever said before, is that there needs to be a point in this game's life cycle where it finally feels like we're actually just being rewarded for what we've done.
Let me elaborate on that last part a bit.
Essentially, pay walls already exist well before we get to the Rancor – first, you need to spend energy to build up Guild Coins for the guild. While this doesn't necessarily take money to complete, it does take time and effort. Daily Guild Activites, however, definitely bring in the money... and plenty of it. We don't mind competing with each other over this – in fact, it can be kind of fun. Some days are easier to split the purse on, so having a few other days be friendly rivalry is okay with us. But, that's not all... you also need teams of worthy characters, plenty of gear to flesh them out, and star ranks to ensure they're raid-worthy.
All of this adds up to a lot of work. The raid itself is basically the culmination of everything you've done finally being put to the ultimate test. It's the “end game” this game has so desperately needed.
This is where things fly off of the rails, though.
Any game that has ever had even halfway decent raiding, has never had mindless raiding. It's never been about “who does the most damage,” as there's almost always more at stake. Even when damage is an absolute priority, it usually almost always has balanced loot systems in place that ultimately reward everyone, too. You see, that's the best part about raiding... that's why everyone sticks through it even if they're the weakest link; in time, everyone gets that moment of feeling like they received the best loot the encounter has to offer. Everyone. Not the top performers, not just the leaders, everyone.
That's an important part of the raiding process. That's the part that makes the whole working as a team bit fulfilling.
Having a system where a small handful of players out of a large group of fifty are handed the keys to the best loot kingdom, based on a metric that doesn't even really make sense (more on that in a second) is essentially eviscerating the spirit of guild raiding without mercy. It's taking the fun of celebration and the motivation of “maybe this week is my week for loot,” and instead replacing it with a Rich Get Richer scheme of appointing the best loot to those already performing at the top levels, thus ensuring their chances at repeat performances are higher.
The metric in place doesn't even really make sense to me, either. The Rancor Encounter is divided in to three phases, and as you progress through each phase he becomes increasingly more difficult and deadly. The first phase, he attacks slower and is more susceptible to effects, whereas by the last phase he attacks upwards of three times at once and is incredibly hard to finish off. Naturally, what this means is the last phase will result in more character deaths, and players will need to focus more effort on throwing bodies at the beast to deliver the final points of damage needed. Keep in mind, though, that the metric for “success” on this “leaderboard” is nothing more than damage done! Phase 1, the Rancor is far less deadly, meaning anyone inclined to maximize their positioning on the leaderboard will be more concerned with utilizing every ounce of their five attempts on the weakest, simplist phase, and less inclined to help assist on the final back-breaking onslaught.
This metric for loot determination is undermining the entire emphasis on teamwork and planning ahead. An all too common pet peeve for any experienced raider is the tunnel vision focus of only caring about the DPS Meter – a trap many a guild leader have sacrificed years of their life yelling over in an effort to try and get raids back to focusing on what's actually supposed to matter. Here, not only is the DPS Meter front and center, but it's become judge and jury for determining the best part of the raid... the loot everyone gets when it's over. This really is the worst possible outcome.
Again, the Rancor should be that moment where we finally feel like we're just being rewarded. It shouldn't have to feel like competition among our friends, it shouldn't be a poorly veiled attempt at “getting us to pay more,” and it shouldn't be something that people get burned out over because they “didn't do enough damage.” We've already paid everything we can to develop our characters, help develop the guild and accomplish all of the activities associated with preparing for the raid, so what exactly is it you think we're going to suddenly need to engage in to make us feel more competitive on a raiding leaderboard?
If I ask the question, “Why does the raiding leaderboard need to even exist in the first place?” you're all going to say the exact same thing in response: “Because they want you to compete with each other so they can try to make more money.” Do we have any other valid excuse? Is this seriously where the bottom line is drawn? Is the countless amount spent on Chromiums, crystal refreshes for gear and energy and store shipments and Aurodiums and every other expense not enough? Must we be at each others throats over something so depressing as this, too? And, again, where is one even supposed to maximize efforts here if they're already performing on all levels in all areas of the game?
It's my firm belief that there shouldn't even BE an inner-guild leaderboard for the raid itself, and that loot should just be distributed 100% evenly, but I know that will just fall on deaf ears. So, instead, let me give my second best suggestion: the loot rewards should be tinkered so that everyone gets paid out way, way deeper in the “good stuff,” with the good stuff having higher variance. The “red boxes” can be all sorts of stuff, right? Sometimes good, sometimes junk? Sometimes it's what you want, other times it isn't? Well, isn't that more or less the same raid loot system I described above? THIS is what the game should be focusing on. THIS is what should be taking place.
If 30 people get a red loot crate for killing a Heroic Rancor, but only 5-10 get the high high end loot out of those crates, you've essentially re-created the randomness of typical loot in any raiding scenario of any MMO in the last 15 years. As developers, you have the power to control those numbers so that only so many people out of the 50 are still walking away with the top end loot, but the difference from the current system is many, many more players in the group get to experience the rush of opening loot. Yeah, some will win and some will lose, but at least everyone had a chance. At least it wasn't decided on an entirely superfluous metric no one should actually care about.
Raiding has a chance to be a real game changer for SWGOH. It has a chance to take this game to a brand new level. However, this reward system is really, really holding it back... you're shooting yourself in one foot while trying to show off the gold plated shoe on the other. You're so close to making this great, why sell us short on the most important aspect? Why ruin something so close to greatness?
The ball's in your court CG. We really hope you re-consider this approach. Deeper payouts, splashed with variance - take the reigns and make this as close to real video game raiding as a freemium game can be.
I'll add I am so sick of being squeezed by this game. Can't you make something actually feel rewarding for us? Can't you make us actually feel good about what we spent?
I have been reading the forum for a while but never really wanted to post anything.
I just signed in for the very first time just to say thank you for the perfect summary @Naecabon
Raids have been done and done and done for literally decades and the reward process has been refined to an art - the point of raids is to get people of all levels and abilities working together to a common goal; if you make only the top players get the good rewards, lesser players won't even bother.
Thank You sir this exactly what I told my guild I hope something is done because I just dont like the feeling of competing against my guild mates for the higher rewards and leaving my weaker allies to be screwed.
Unfortunately, the update was already coded up and released as a completed build. The devs that read this thread will most likely just continue following the schedule according how how they planned it. We players will eventually learn to "accept" what they give us. They'll just give us a clever explanation of their concept of Guilds to help us accept.
For example, the recent update with the health bars; there were hundreds of angry players that said they'll quit.....but over 80% of them are probably still playing this game even though it has become more frustrating. This is because they just needed time to accept the changes. The same thing's gonna happen with Guilds.
The devs are not going to be doing any reverse-engineering that may potentially cause the loss of projected profits (not even as marginal as a dingleberry) just to satisfy a handful of "righteous gamers". It was always about the money; nothing will be done unless something catastrophic occurs---a massive whale boycott.
A monthly churn of 1.5% of the player base vs 4% (or worst, a shortening of average client longevity) if they don't keep long time players around can easily snowball them from Tier VII profits to Tier III ones. They need to upgrade the Listen To Customer skill to at least ability 3 otherwise they will raise profits short term and without amasing a larger player base they won't be able to play at Heroic Profit levels, and will only get Mark 3 Retirement Boxes with only a small chance of dropping fully-crafted Aruba and Bali.
As always, Naecebon has created a very detailed and well thought out post, good job!!
I remember being concerned with leader boards weeks ago and had a post that you responded to at the time. I had a feeling something would effect the spirit of the game although what came out here was not what I anticipated. I knew leaderboards would be problematic and most called me crazy then, but I have a knack of seeing things unfold weeks and months before they occur.
I imagine EA/CG will want to tweak this feature down the road so I figure big guns like Instinct speaking on such a topic will get the attention of the Devs here that are listening. If things stay as they are however, the leadership of the Guilds in existence will have to make some tough choices.
I personally love the friendship and the team aspect of my Guild the most, even more than the individual accolades, shards, credits, mats and other junk I could receive. My friendships with my team mean more than the rewards playing the game. With that said, I will surely do what a leader does and purposely step aside to allow my teammates to share in the glory so that we all get a taste of the rewards. We may even have to plan who wins rewards on any given day so the junk is spread around and nobody feels left out.
I'd suggest for now that all of the guilds look into putting plans such as this in place or risk alienating people on your team as they get a window seat watching others get rewards while they have little to nothing to show for their commitment!!
Well stated, they said the guild is "only as strong as it's weakest links" but they made it "you are only stronger than all the weaker links".
Makes no sense to have done it this way; we want to maintain a drama free guild and all this reward structure does it make those on the bottom disgruntled and want to leave.... no drama there... NOT!
I have not seen anyone else say this yet, and I think this does need to be said. While i dont agree with everything that CG/EA has done with this game, I can guarantee that guys like @EA_Jesse and @CG_JohnSalera are listening and they do care.
BUT that being said the OP is 100% correct, the guilds should not have payouts tied to leaderboards, leader boards should be a fun rivalry, where you can tease your friends and such, but the rewards should be even for everyone, or like the OP suggested everyone gets a random box for being int he guild and completing a raid.
I do have one thing to add though, why did the devs set it up like this? I honestly dont think it was about getting more money from us, there is already lots of incentive to do that, hell if you have 50 people in a guild you will collect 30k per day just from playing the game towards opening a raid, add in the daily guild rewards and im betting you can open a tier 5 or 6 raid every other day at the minimum even if you are not a P2W guild, so there will already be lots of incentive to finish the raids fast to open another.
Really i think the Dev's looked at this and honestly though that most people would want a competitive ladder system, they are wrong, but i can see why they thought it.
Please EA/CG take this message to heart and do what the OP suggested or make the payouts much more like a flat line where the top and bottom get the same aside from a few credits or something.
For the previous update (i.e. Omega mats, protection, etc.) I was a staunch defender of EA/CG and the developers. The update addressed several issues. Was it perfect? No, but it was a step in the right direction. Defensive players mattered, tanks and healers were once again relevant in arena. The Omega challenge was nice new content with decent rewards - and helped an "upgrading" issue.
I'm not even going to go into the absolute chaos that ensued when the update went live last night, except to say that it was very poor execution.
The new update and the "communication" that preceded it are deeply flawed however. And frankly, at the very least, the communication was misleading - at worst, some if it were simply lies.
OMEGA EVENT Started on 4/14 - ended 4/24. That's not 12 days, despite the fact that it said "over a 12-day period" - 4/14 until 4/24 is, at most, an 11 day period. That update post was a flat out lie. It ended at least 1 day early.
GUILDS - There are so many issues here it's actually sad.
First off, it has been repeatedly stated that guild activities (and their reset) would be "based on the time zone of the guild leaders". Apparently this does NOT actually include the DAY of said time zone. This morning a great many guilds are confused, as it is MONDAY in their "guild leader's time zone", but they will spend most of the day trying to earn points using yesterday's (Sunday's) requirements. If you look at the updates that discuss tiers, MONDAY was listed first - and is the first day that the update is non-optional. Flat out lie? Maybe not - but extremely misleading, and easily remedied by simply including...anywhere...the fact that the "guild reset is NOT related to the guild leader's reset - just his arena payout" (which incidentally, is completely arbitrary)
I could go to great lengths explaining all the other flaws already in the guild system, but several respected posters (Naecabon, Sikho, Shampoo, etc.) have already done an excellent job of pointing out the fact that the current "guild system" is really just a poorly designed (and not-so-thinly veiled) attempt to get guild members to compete against each other, instead of work together. A great opportunity, missed....again.
NERFS AND BUFFS As if the above several points are not enough to call the update a fairly abject failure, we have nerfs - and of course buffs.
TL;DR version? Everyone who got nerfed was weak already and the buffs were given to the strongest characters in the game - oh, and the one aspect of Dooku that "needed" to be fixed, wasn't. Good work.
Long version:
Ventress was, in effect, nerfed. I don't even run Ventress, and think this is ludicrous. She is already one of the weakest heroes in the game (several of her own NS folks are much more viable than her). Dooku was nerfed - except for the only part of him that actually would have made sense to tone down - his OP leader ability. Do the developers even play this game??
Buffed? Well, the always weak GS, IG 86 and QGJ were buffed of course - now they will never call an assist from a stunned character, and their assisters won't be counter-attacked. NICE! I DO run QGJ + GS (as do most people), so I'm okay with this one...even if it makes absolutely no sense from a game balance perspective.
Oh - and taunting tanks in general got a buff. Why? Because the new "rules" about counters, will make tanks even more important. So now QGJ & GS can blast away AND call in assists - and remain untouched. You go RG!!
As I said at the beginning of this post, I defended the last update. I will not make the same mistake this time. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
For the previous update (i.e. Omega mats, protection, etc.) I was a staunch defender of EA/CG and the developers. The update addressed several issues. Was it perfect? No, but it was a step in the right direction. Defensive players mattered, tanks and healers were once again relevant in arena. The Omega challenge was nice new content with decent rewards - and helped an "upgrading" issue.
I'm not even going to go into the absolute chaos that ensued when the update went live last night, except to say that it was very poor execution.
The new update and the "communication" that preceded it are deeply flawed however. And frankly, at the very least, the communication was misleading - at worst, some if it were simply lies.
OMEGA EVENT Started on 4/14 - ended 4/24. That's not 12 days, despite the fact that it said "over a 12-day period" - 4/14 until 4/24 is, at most, an 11 day period. That update post was a flat out lie. It ended at least 1 day early.
GUILDS - There are so many issues here it's actually sad.
First off, it has been repeatedly stated that guild activities (and their reset) would be "based on the time zone of the guild leaders". Apparently this does NOT actually include the DAY of said time zone. This morning a great many guilds are confused, as it is MONDAY in their "guild leader's time zone", but they will spend most of the day trying to earn points using yesterday's (Sunday's) requirements. If you look at the updates that discuss tiers, MONDAY was listed first - and is the first day that the update is non-optional. Flat out lie? Maybe not - but extremely misleading, and easily remedied by simply including...anywhere...the fact that the "guild reset is NOT related to the guild leader's reset - just his arena payout" (which incidentally, is completely arbitrary)
I could go to great lengths explaining all the other flaws already in the guild system, but several respected posters (Naecabon, Sikho, Shampoo, etc.) have already done an excellent job of pointing out the fact that the current "guild system" is really just a poorly designed (and not-so-thinly veiled) attempt to get guild members to compete against each other, instead of work together. A great opportunity, missed....again.
NERFS AND BUFFS As if the above several points are not enough to call the update a fairly abject failure, we have nerfs - and of course buffs.
TL;DR version? Everyone who got nerfed was weak already and the buffs were given to the strongest characters in the game - oh, and the one aspect of Dooku that "needed" to be fixed, wasn't. Good work.
Long version:
Ventress was, in effect, nerfed. I don't even run Ventress, and think this is ludicrous. She is already one of the weakest heroes in the game (several of her own NS folks are much more viable than her). Dooku was nerfed - except for the only part of him that actually would have made sense to tone down - his OP leader ability. Do the developers even play this game??
Buffed? Well, the always weak GS, IG 86 and QGJ were buffed of course - now they will never call an assist from a stunned character, and their assisters won't be counter-attacked. NICE! I DO run QGJ + GS (as do most people), so I'm okay with this one...even if it makes absolutely no sense from a game balance perspective.
Oh - and taunting tanks in general got a buff. Why? Because the new "rules" about counters, will make tanks even more important. So now QGJ & GS can blast away AND call in assists - and remain untouched. You go RG!!
As I said at the beginning of this post, I defended the last update. I will not make the same mistake this time. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
Replies
The guild size should have been set to 10 if they were going to do this cr*p! How are the remaining members in the guild supposed to get stronger? I'm sitting at #20 in my guild as a contributor and I HAVE SPENT MONEY! This is stupid beyond belief!
There could be a small credit bonus or the like for top 3 damage, but the current set up feels really bad for a cooperative guild.
For example, the recent update with the health bars; there were hundreds of angry players that said they'll quit.....but over 80% of them are probably still playing this game even though it has become more frustrating. This is because they just needed time to accept the changes. The same thing's gonna happen with Guilds.
The devs are not going to be doing any reverse-engineering that may potentially cause the loss of projected profits (not even as marginal as a dingleberry) just to satisfy a handful of "righteous gamers". It was always about the money; nothing will be done unless something catastrophic occurs---a massive whale boycott.
600 energy is: 240 daily energy + 120 daily cantina energy + 45*3 (135) free refreshes = 495. You only need 50 crystals to get 120 extra energy and get that bonus completed. You get 50 crystals between GW and the daily activities. All energy counts towards this limit.
f2p you get 135 free bonus + 240 regular energy + 120 cantina for without paying, so 495. You need to do a single 50 crystal refresh to hit 600 a day for the daily guild contribution, and you get more than 50 free crystal a day.
Hmm, thanks for the calculations, so that's more Daily on top of Daily...all day; that's a lot of grinding and even tighter time-management to be had. I guess I'd have to plan to do Guild-related activities during the weekends or on days that I am not busy. Guilds are clearly for the hardcore indeed.
I would even go so far as to say the daily rewards tiers are too steep.
Guilds should be people finding people with the similar goals and attitudes toward gaming, and then working together. This creates a team where people are excited to log in and take part of. This joy is what keeps people coming back to a game every day, even when the amount of new content is small. I am sure many of you have played a game where you stuck around after it had stopped being fun only because your guild was awesome. The current system doesn't incentivize that at all.
Take right now for example. My guild is already over the threshold for cantina energy for the day, and I am seriously thinking about putting a bunch of crystals in to cantina just to move up the leaderboard. When, in all honesty, it would be better for me, and for my guild, if I used those crystals to farm more gear. And you know what, after I jump up, someone else drops down to my position and has the same thought process.
This system is purely a means of getting people to spend more money on crystals, nothing else. Having to compete with my teammates to this extreme will suck the joy out of being in a guild. Sure the people at the top deserve more rewards, they put more in. However, it should be at a level where the people in the middle of the pack aren't resentful / regretful. It should make people say 'yup, they earned that and I am glad they got more because they do more'. However, as it is, the system tells members in the bottom 2/3rds of a guild that they would be better off somewhere else. It just shouldn't be that way.
Horrible system. I'm truly disappointed by this.
@twist - Yeah, as I mentioned in the top, I was extending the discussion to the daily rewards as well. Totally agree with everything in Naec's post about the raid rewards.
Thank you. Agree!!!!!
Chondrosarcoma- Chondro3150#0907
Chondrosarcoma- Chondro3150#0907
Thank You sir this exactly what I told my guild I hope something is done because I just dont like the feeling of competing against my guild mates for the higher rewards and leaving my weaker allies to be screwed.
A monthly churn of 1.5% of the player base vs 4% (or worst, a shortening of average client longevity) if they don't keep long time players around can easily snowball them from Tier VII profits to Tier III ones. They need to upgrade the Listen To Customer skill to at least ability 3 otherwise they will raise profits short term and without amasing a larger player base they won't be able to play at Heroic Profit levels, and will only get Mark 3 Retirement Boxes with only a small chance of dropping fully-crafted Aruba and Bali.
I remember being concerned with leader boards weeks ago and had a post that you responded to at the time. I had a feeling something would effect the spirit of the game although what came out here was not what I anticipated. I knew leaderboards would be problematic and most called me crazy then, but I have a knack of seeing things unfold weeks and months before they occur.
I imagine EA/CG will want to tweak this feature down the road so I figure big guns like Instinct speaking on such a topic will get the attention of the Devs here that are listening. If things stay as they are however, the leadership of the Guilds in existence will have to make some tough choices.
I personally love the friendship and the team aspect of my Guild the most, even more than the individual accolades, shards, credits, mats and other junk I could receive. My friendships with my team mean more than the rewards playing the game. With that said, I will surely do what a leader does and purposely step aside to allow my teammates to share in the glory so that we all get a taste of the rewards. We may even have to plan who wins rewards on any given day so the junk is spread around and nobody feels left out.
I'd suggest for now that all of the guilds look into putting plans such as this in place or risk alienating people on your team as they get a window seat watching others get rewards while they have little to nothing to show for their commitment!!
Completely agree with all of this, the tiered reward system is a terrible idea.
Makes no sense to have done it this way; we want to maintain a drama free guild and all this reward structure does it make those on the bottom disgruntled and want to leave.... no drama there... NOT!
BUT that being said the OP is 100% correct, the guilds should not have payouts tied to leaderboards, leader boards should be a fun rivalry, where you can tease your friends and such, but the rewards should be even for everyone, or like the OP suggested everyone gets a random box for being int he guild and completing a raid.
I do have one thing to add though, why did the devs set it up like this? I honestly dont think it was about getting more money from us, there is already lots of incentive to do that, hell if you have 50 people in a guild you will collect 30k per day just from playing the game towards opening a raid, add in the daily guild rewards and im betting you can open a tier 5 or 6 raid every other day at the minimum even if you are not a P2W guild, so there will already be lots of incentive to finish the raids fast to open another.
Really i think the Dev's looked at this and honestly though that most people would want a competitive ladder system, they are wrong, but i can see why they thought it.
Please EA/CG take this message to heart and do what the OP suggested or make the payouts much more like a flat line where the top and bottom get the same aside from a few credits or something.
I'm not even going to go into the absolute chaos that ensued when the update went live last night, except to say that it was very poor execution.
The new update and the "communication" that preceded it are deeply flawed however. And frankly, at the very least, the communication was misleading - at worst, some if it were simply lies.
OMEGA EVENT Started on 4/14 - ended 4/24. That's not 12 days, despite the fact that it said "over a 12-day period" - 4/14 until 4/24 is, at most, an 11 day period. That update post was a flat out lie. It ended at least 1 day early.
GUILDS - There are so many issues here it's actually sad.
First off, it has been repeatedly stated that guild activities (and their reset) would be "based on the time zone of the guild leaders". Apparently this does NOT actually include the DAY of said time zone. This morning a great many guilds are confused, as it is MONDAY in their "guild leader's time zone", but they will spend most of the day trying to earn points using yesterday's (Sunday's) requirements. If you look at the updates that discuss tiers, MONDAY was listed first - and is the first day that the update is non-optional. Flat out lie? Maybe not - but extremely misleading, and easily remedied by simply including...anywhere...the fact that the "guild reset is NOT related to the guild leader's reset - just his arena payout" (which incidentally, is completely arbitrary)
I could go to great lengths explaining all the other flaws already in the guild system, but several respected posters (Naecabon, Sikho, Shampoo, etc.) have already done an excellent job of pointing out the fact that the current "guild system" is really just a poorly designed (and not-so-thinly veiled) attempt to get guild members to compete against each other, instead of work together. A great opportunity, missed....again.
NERFS AND BUFFS As if the above several points are not enough to call the update a fairly abject failure, we have nerfs - and of course buffs.
TL;DR version? Everyone who got nerfed was weak already and the buffs were given to the strongest characters in the game - oh, and the one aspect of Dooku that "needed" to be fixed, wasn't. Good work.
Long version:
Ventress was, in effect, nerfed. I don't even run Ventress, and think this is ludicrous. She is already one of the weakest heroes in the game (several of her own NS folks are much more viable than her). Dooku was nerfed - except for the only part of him that actually would have made sense to tone down - his OP leader ability. Do the developers even play this game??
Buffed? Well, the always weak GS, IG 86 and QGJ were buffed of course - now they will never call an assist from a stunned character, and their assisters won't be counter-attacked. NICE! I DO run QGJ + GS (as do most people), so I'm okay with this one...even if it makes absolutely no sense from a game balance perspective.
Oh - and taunting tanks in general got a buff. Why? Because the new "rules" about counters, will make tanks even more important. So now QGJ & GS can blast away AND call in assists - and remain untouched. You go RG!!
As I said at the beginning of this post, I defended the last update. I will not make the same mistake this time. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
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Yawnnnnnnnnn, you done?