Awesome post and i totally agree. Buying furnaces/cuffs etc from the shipments is something that can give a p2p a monstrous advantage over f2p. Literally any character he will unlock from now until the end of the time, the p2p can get it to gear 8/9 within a few days...But it's all good as long as they $$$$ keep pouring in right? Without using 'restraints' I wonder who will place first in Raids...f2p or the guy that buys gear?? Tough one...Maybe after reading 1000+ threads like yours they will finally realize and hopefully ask themselves 'what were we thinking' when they added tier rewards in raids. Pre-crafting is NOTHING compared to what this last update did!
P.S: I thought you said you weren't eloquent haha.
This was me trying really hard lol.
Yes, they've 'alleviated' the gear problem, but only for one demographic
^^ This can be fixed...they need to cut prices in shipments for all gear in half, then they need to increase the droprate for purple gear and finally the raid rewards be made equal (i am all for equality but if they really want to punish somebody, they need to do so against the person that doesn't even have 5 guys at 7*, because he doesn't need that gear much now anyways...as it is now every single one is punished with the 'middle' players being literally in the worst place possible). If things stay the same, things will progressively get worse and worse until every f2p decides to call it quits! It's not a question of IF he will quit but rather WHEN.
Yes! Increase the abysmal drop rates and make it cheaper. I don't hate the shard shop at all, but it does have obvious issues regarding game balance
Your suggestion makes a lot of sense, because as a F2P it's all about balance - currency, toons, time etc. So if gear was relatively cheapish you could go, 'hmm I can either refresh Cantina and LS/DS or I can save for 3 days and get the gear. That is already better than what we have currently.
i dont want to be "that guy", but i dont agree.
1. this game is very f2p friendly
2. this game is very friendly to late starters
3. competing vs whales should be impossible as a f2p
4. there is a limited amount of players on your arena server, they cant all be whales except for you
5. The gear for crystals is also obtainable via ingame earned crystals (yes you might be forced to do less energy refreshes to strengthen your arena squad instead of widening your bench)
6. once many players reach the lvl 80 cap it will ballance out in favour of f2p
and if we are being honest. How would you feel if you dropped a small fortune on a game and a pescy little f2p player is still able to compete with you ?
there is a ballance between f2p and p2p, and i agree that it is shifting a little more in favour of the p2p than it has been before. But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
Kudos @InternetSwag, an extremely well-written post that accurately encapsulate the problem caused by the widening chasm between F2P and P2P and also reflect the sentiments of most F2P.
Totally agree too that the level cap needs to remain at 80 for some time just to give F2P a sliver of chance to narrow the gap.
While CG/EA will no doubt need to continue to introduce new content to keep their paying player base happy, simply adding more levels and gears for players to grind through is too simplistic a solution and does nothing to solve the existing problem.
While I can't speak for any P2P as a F2P myself, surely features such as Ingame cosmetic options or the opportunity to compete in elite level PvP events will be welcomed by most P2P. CG/EA needs to get creative with their solutions rather than just offering up more ways for P2P to buy a greater advantage.
But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
No that's not more "fair".
This kind of game also relies on free players, to populate and give the whales someone to dominate.
Freemium also includes "free".
If the game creates too large of a gap between the free and paid players, this will also hurt paying users, since the game needs these f2p. Especially since arena shards are static.
Fun fact: Most freemium games make more money than typical 70$ games, and most of the users are free. They're not freeloaders as you call them, they are actually an incentive to pay, in order to be above this huge mass of free players.
See this as a symbiotic relationship, where both parties take advantage of each other. If one link breaks, the other necessarily dies with it.
I am wondering how long it will take for them to raise the cap. I am guessing that now with raids and whales being entertained in getting some gear to level their toons it will take a while before they get bored. Anyway, it will be the chance for F2P to catch up somewhat and be competitive.
As for the rest this great post already said it all.
But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
No that's not more "fair". This kind of game also relies on free players, to populate and give the whales someone to dominate.
Freemium also includes "free".
If the game creates too large of a gap between the free and paid players, this will also hurt paying users, since the game needs these f2p. Especially since arena shards are static.
Fun fact: Most freemium games make more money than typical 70$ games, and most of the users are free. They're not freeloaders as you call them, they are actually an incentive to pay, in order to be above this huge mass of free players.
See this as a symbiotic relationship, where both parties take advantage of each other. If one link breaks, the other necessarily dies with it.
your whole argumentation supports my statement.
edit; i highlighted the important part
But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
No that's not more "fair". This kind of game also relies on free players, to populate and give the whales someone to dominate.
Freemium also includes "free".
If the game creates too large of a gap between the free and paid players, this will also hurt paying users, since the game needs these f2p. Especially since arena shards are static.
Fun fact: Most freemium games make more money than typical 70$ games, and most of the users are free. They're not freeloaders as you call them, they are actually an incentive to pay, in order to be above this huge mass of free players.
See this as a symbiotic relationship, where both parties take advantage of each other. If one link breaks, the other necessarily dies with it.
your whole argumentation supports my statement.
edit; i highlighted the important part
Lol it is true. However gotta applaud you for trying Sikho.
Seriously now, just because i win one fight in Arena against a whale in offense, doesn't mean i have 50 persons squad like him. Or that i can basically stay in top 5 all day without ever being in danger of not getting #1. The advantage whales had was black and white clear and acceptable before this update.
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
for the record, i am full f2p. literally full f2p, not the starter pack or stuff like that either.
@leef i think you completely missed the point of the OP. He was saying the gap between ftp and ptp was small enough for ftp to still be able to compete, until the recent gear changes. Now there is much more emphasis on spending to keep upgrading your toons.
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
You seem to be a stranger to the fact that a balance has to be maintained between p2p and f2p. I am not trying to compete with whales, i have no chance to obtain their roster in this lifetime. I only want to beat them in Arena in offense...you know i basically want to win against the AI who is supposed to be terrible. Is that competing with whales in your view? Can i get the gear required for my characters to get them for gear 1 to gear 8 in a couple of days? I am not attacking p2p, but a balance needs to be found here. Raid rewards are a joke between f2p/p2p now and Arena is becoming one.
@leef i think you completely missed the point of the OP. He was saying the gap between ftp and ptp was small enough for ftp to still be able to compete, until the recent gear changes. Now there is much more emphasis on spending to keep upgrading your toons.
there is a ballance between f2p and p2p, and i agree that it is shifting a little more in favour of the p2p than it has been before. But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
Just because i dont agree with the OP doesnt mean i completely missed his point. Like i tried to explain in my previous comments, the gap isnt that large. Just because ppl want to be able to compete with the big spenders doesnt mean its fair.
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
You seem to be a stranger to the fact that a balance has to be maintained between p2p and f2p. I am not trying to compete with whales, i have no chance to obtain their roster in this lifetime. I only want to beat them in Arena in offense...you know i basically want to win against the AI who is supposed to be terrible. Is that competing with whales in your view? Can i get the gear required for my characters to get them for gear 1 to gear 8 in a couple of days? I am not attacking p2p, but a balance needs to be found here. Raid rewards are a joke between f2p/p2p now and Arena is becoming one.
just because i dont agree with what you would like the balance to be like, doesnt mean i dont understand balance.
And you seriously need to stop bringing up the raid rewards, they hurt p2p just as much, and i think even more than f2p.
@leef i think you completely missed the point of the OP. He was saying the gap between ftp and ptp was small enough for ftp to still be able to compete, until the recent gear changes. Now there is much more emphasis on spending to keep upgrading your toons.
there is a ballance between f2p and p2p, and i agree that it is shifting a little more in favour of the p2p than it has been before. But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
Just because i dont agree with the OP doesnt mean i completely missed his point. Like i tried to explain in my previous comments, the gap isnt that large. Just because ppl want to be able to compete with the big spenders doesnt mean its fair.
Sorry, overlooked that last bit. Fair enough, but I still think the gap has widened too much. You may find it not too noticeable now, but I suspect it will increase as more and more preemium gear is needed to level gear X and higher.
Very well put @InternetSwag .
I'm pay to play, sort of. Lol. Not a whale, but willing and have dropped some money in, and I both see where you're coming from, and completely agree. I've also seen another Star Wars game basically make the same type of mistakes... and hope EA figures it out far quicker than their competitor has.
I'm happy that you can see both sides of the fence It's good when the two sides basically are a family and unite to see the problems facing the game currently.
I compare to supercell like clash and clash royal. You can't even break into the top tier without paying. So this game even post unobtaniums has been very FTP friendly.
I'm not sure though that if you started today it would be the same. And the key change was furnaces being available in the shop. Now it takes an extra 50 days to get to the level cap which increases the gap between FTP and PTP. Without that pits stop to catch up at 70 I would have been restricted to top 50 maybe top 20. Being stuck outside the top 5 does not allow you to accumulate crystals to purchase furnaces. Also with the unfaarmable gear you need to be able to do heroic to accumulate it. Again without the pause FTP will be a long way off.
All that said the leader board and rewards of premium currency and shards are still far more FTP friendly then any other freemium phone game. I will be in a guild that will be doing heroic shortly and I've spent $5 to play this game. Just adding single nodes of gear with say 10% drop rate and get it out of shipments would be enough. I think people also mistake the precrafting being a whale thing. I had 3 droid callers and 1 of the Nubians pre crafted so it was an awareness thing not an PTW thing.
Well, I precrafted too heh. 4 Droid Callers and nothing else (due to not having enough time to farm). If I were a whale or if I had just spent more money in general there's a good chance I already had some of the items or would have been able to do last minute farming better. But that's not really what I wanna discuss, precrafting is done and dusted - no more can come of it now
I've not played Clash Royal, so I can't speak about that particularly. But if it's live PVP this game would probably be just like it if there was live PVP. In a 1v1 match you're gonna need every advantage you can get.
But yes, currently it is doable as F2P, but not because of the systems in place, rather the lack of true PVP.
I definitely agree that real PVP would confer a huge advantage on max players. It would also destroy any game balance as there would be 1 meta team plus RNG teams that could be successful. It would be a Poe meta again. The game has an intentionly frilled AI as without it the game wouldn't work.
The other reason FTP is competitive is the server spilt. With 5000-10000 servers everyone gets first prize who is dedicated.
I agree with your trend that it's getting worse but disagree that this game is worse for FTP than others.
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
You seem to be a stranger to the fact that a balance has to be maintained between p2p and f2p. I am not trying to compete with whales, i have no chance to obtain their roster in this lifetime. I only want to beat them in Arena in offense...you know i basically want to win against the AI who is supposed to be terrible. Is that competing with whales in your view? Can i get the gear required for my characters to get them for gear 1 to gear 8 in a couple of days? I am not attacking p2p, but a balance needs to be found here. Raid rewards are a joke between f2p/p2p now and Arena is becoming one.
just because i dont agree with what you would like the balance to be like, doesnt mean i dont understand balance.
And you seriously need to stop bringing up the raid rewards, they hurt p2p just as much, and i think even more than f2p.
So...if us 2 would be in the same guild and we would be the only people there and we didn't use any restraints i would get 1st more than you? Huh...interesting guess you learn new things everyday because i thought there wouldn't be a single possible chance for me to get #1 against you. Now let's compare the percentage of f2p to whales...Come on, who are you kidding here?
@leef i think you completely missed the point of the OP. He was saying the gap between ftp and ptp was small enough for ftp to still be able to compete, until the recent gear changes. Now there is much more emphasis on spending to keep upgrading your toons.
there is a ballance between f2p and p2p, and i agree that it is shifting a little more in favour of the p2p than it has been before. But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
Just because i dont agree with the OP doesnt mean i completely missed his point. Like i tried to explain in my previous comments, the gap isnt that large. Just because ppl want to be able to compete with the big spenders doesnt mean its fair.
Sorry, overlooked that last bit. Fair enough, but I still think the gap has widened too much. You may find it not too noticeable now, but I suspect it will increase as more and more preemium gear is needed to level gear X and higher.
You are right, i dont find it too noticeable at the moment. I factored in that the gap will widen more over time. And i also factored in that the gap will close slowly once the mayority of the f2p players also reach lvl80. If they increased the lvl cap to 90 before this will happen i would fully agree that the balance will be lost.
But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
No that's not more "fair". This kind of game also relies on free players, to populate and give the whales someone to dominate.
Freemium also includes "free".
If the game creates too large of a gap between the free and paid players, this will also hurt paying users, since the game needs these f2p. Especially since arena shards are static.
Fun fact: Most freemium games make more money than typical 70$ games, and most of the users are free. They're not freeloaders as you call them, they are actually an incentive to pay, in order to be above this huge mass of free players.
See this as a symbiotic relationship, where both parties take advantage of each other. If one link breaks, the other necessarily dies with it.
your whole argumentation supports my statement.
edit; i highlighted the important part
I'm sorry, you probably misunderstood me: I agree with you on the fact that whales should dominate the game. That's what this kind of game is about.
What I disagree with is that you believe that f2p are "freeloaders".
They're not. They are necessary for the game to exist. That's why the gap between f2p and p2p must remain large enough to give them a nice competitive edge, but not too large, as it would hurt both sides.
The introduction of gear in shipments is a game-breaking idea that separates p2p and f2p. This gives too many advantages to whales, and creates huge disparities.
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
You seem to be a stranger to the fact that a balance has to be maintained between p2p and f2p. I am not trying to compete with whales, i have no chance to obtain their roster in this lifetime. I only want to beat them in Arena in offense...you know i basically want to win against the AI who is supposed to be terrible. Is that competing with whales in your view? Can i get the gear required for my characters to get them for gear 1 to gear 8 in a couple of days? I am not attacking p2p, but a balance needs to be found here. Raid rewards are a joke between f2p/p2p now and Arena is becoming one.
just because i dont agree with what you would like the balance to be like, doesnt mean i dont understand balance.
And you seriously need to stop bringing up the raid rewards, they hurt p2p just as much, and i think even more than f2p.
So...if us 2 would be in the same guild and we would be the only people there and we didn't use any restraints i would get 1st more than you? Huh...interesting guess you learn new things everyday because i thought there wouldn't be a single possible chance for me to get #1 against you. Now let's compare the percentage of f2p to whales...Come on, who are you kidding here?
i guess you would actually get first more often than me, i havent been playing that long and i am also full f2p. But thats not the point, you fail to understand a very important aspect of being p2p.
you asume p2p has an endless supply of money or something. p2p players are forced to spend more money if they want to #1 in a guild with more than 1 p2p player. Being the only p2p player in a guild of f2p players wouldnt even garantee first place, there are other factors to take into account. p2p players who are stuck in a spending war in their own guild for #1 are being affected way more than us f2p players. The continously increasing amount of money they need to spend to obtain/maintain #1 isnt worth it at all.
you are only lookin at it from a f2p point of view. They can spend more so i cant beat them. But for the p2p player it will become a money drain, wich does NOT benefit them at all. Their money invested in the game will have a smaller return on investment.
But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
No that's not more "fair". This kind of game also relies on free players, to populate and give the whales someone to dominate.
Freemium also includes "free".
If the game creates too large of a gap between the free and paid players, this will also hurt paying users, since the game needs these f2p. Especially since arena shards are static.
Fun fact: Most freemium games make more money than typical 70$ games, and most of the users are free. They're not freeloaders as you call them, they are actually an incentive to pay, in order to be above this huge mass of free players.
See this as a symbiotic relationship, where both parties take advantage of each other. If one link breaks, the other necessarily dies with it.
your whole argumentation supports my statement.
edit; i highlighted the important part
I'm sorry, you probably misunderstood me: I agree with you on the fact that whales should dominate the game. That's what this kind of game is about.
What I disagree with is that you believe that f2p are "freeloaders".
They're not. They are necessary for the game to exist. That's why the gap between f2p and p2p must remain large enough to give them a nice competitive edge, but not too large, as it would hurt both sides.
The introduction of gear in shipments is a game-breaking idea that separates p2p and f2p. This gives too many advantages to whales, and creates huge disparities.
freeloaders probably wasnt the best choice of words. I dont agree that creates huge disparities. I tried to explain why in my previous comments.
Interesting post, though this kind of behavior was to be expected from EA.
I'm more concerned about the abundance of Chromium toons lately, and the fact that they seem extremely powerful (Rex is becoming the leader of the new whale meta)
They articulate the meta around a few characters and then release a Chromium toon to counter this meta (See Sun Fac, and his ability to counter RG, outclass QGJ, and be a taunter at the same time, or the Fives buffs followed by the counter changes to make Leia's stealth a counter to him.)
They also don't release the best Chromium toons for f2p. The last ones we got were Old Ben (who is irrelevant against Rex and Yoda, though they didn't expect him to be used as a leader instead of Dooku) and Tarkin, who's only good in Empire teams.
Still no sign of Aylaa or Leia, who are extremely powerful.
I've noticed it as well, I'm not sure which of the changes were actually aimed at chromium only toons and if many of the changes were made for raids. So I have to give benefit of the doubt there. But what you say makes a lot of sense and if it continues we will surely notice it and the forum will likely raise it as an issue
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
You seem to be a stranger to the fact that a balance has to be maintained between p2p and f2p. I am not trying to compete with whales, i have no chance to obtain their roster in this lifetime. I only want to beat them in Arena in offense...you know i basically want to win against the AI who is supposed to be terrible. Is that competing with whales in your view? Can i get the gear required for my characters to get them for gear 1 to gear 8 in a couple of days? I am not attacking p2p, but a balance needs to be found here. Raid rewards are a joke between f2p/p2p now and Arena is becoming one.
I can't agree. Here is my arena board right this moment.
You can see the disparity in not only gear levels but star levels as well. I 100% understand the point you're arguing, but in game evidence contradicts you.
People attempting to make f2p vs p2p arguments right now are only distracting themselves as well as others from the real issues facing the game.
@leef If i wouldn't be able to be competitive against p2p in arena, i would've quit a long time ago. Only a complete masochist would play the game if that were the case. And i fail to see my competitiveness in raids as a f2p. No offense, but money should buy you time, not perma-advantage. I usually have no problem with that, except they took it too far this time and buying 7k power in arena in a matter of days is too much. This is also the reason why they are bringing so many new characters in, to keep whales spending, because they realized they can get all the gear for any new character in 2 days. And any game worse than this one for f2p shouldn't be played as f2p, or at all.
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
You seem to be a stranger to the fact that a balance has to be maintained between p2p and f2p. I am not trying to compete with whales, i have no chance to obtain their roster in this lifetime. I only want to beat them in Arena in offense...you know i basically want to win against the AI who is supposed to be terrible. Is that competing with whales in your view? Can i get the gear required for my characters to get them for gear 1 to gear 8 in a couple of days? I am not attacking p2p, but a balance needs to be found here. Raid rewards are a joke between f2p/p2p now and Arena is becoming one.
just because i dont agree with what you would like the balance to be like, doesnt mean i dont understand balance.
And you seriously need to stop bringing up the raid rewards, they hurt p2p just as much, and i think even more than f2p.
So...if us 2 would be in the same guild and we would be the only people there and we didn't use any restraints i would get 1st more than you? Huh...interesting guess you learn new things everyday because i thought there wouldn't be a single possible chance for me to get #1 against you. Now let's compare the percentage of f2p to whales...Come on, who are you kidding here?
i guess you would actually get first more often than me, i havent been playing that long and i am also full f2p. But thats not the point, you fail to understand a very important aspect of being p2p.
you asume p2p has an endless supply of money or something. p2p players are forced to spend more money if they want to #1 in a guild with more than 1 p2p player. Being the only p2p player in a guild of f2p players wouldnt even garantee first place, there are other factors to take into account. p2p players who are stuck in a spending war in their own guild for #1 are being affected way more than us f2p players. The continously increasing amount of money they need to spend to obtain/maintain #1 isnt worth it at all.
you are only lookin at it from a f2p point of view. They can spend more so i cant beat them. But for the p2p player it will become a money drain, wich does NOT benefit them at all. Their money invested in the game will have a smaller return on investment.
Lol what is happening here? I thought i was having an argument with a p2p player. Nobody is forcing a p2p to spend money. They choose to do so. They chose to refresh 1 million times and buy all the furnaces in sight. They don't have to be stuck in spending wars. If anything they are being exploited because of their 'i can't wait' tendencies. And yes, if someone with a full roster comes into a f2p guild, then he will get #1 in that guild for a loooong time. If he wants to.
i dont want to be "that guy", but i dont agree.
1. this game is very f2p friendly
2. this game is very friendly to late starters
3. competing vs whales should be impossible as a f2p
4. there is a limited amount of players on your arena server, they cant all be whales except for you
5. The gear for crystals is also obtainable via ingame earned crystals (yes you might be forced to do less energy refreshes to strengthen your arena squad instead of widening your bench)
6. once many players reach the lvl 80 cap it will ballance out in favour of f2p
and if we are being honest. How would you feel if you dropped a small fortune on a game and a pescy little f2p player is still able to compete with you ?
there is a ballance between f2p and p2p, and i agree that it is shifting a little more in favour of the p2p than it has been before. But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
Hey, it's fine, you're not being 'that guy' just because you disagree with someone
Yes, the game is very F2P friendly, but I addressed it in the OP. It's pretty much only that way because of poor AI.
Friendly to late starters? I would have agreed with that if they gave us 20 levels instead of 10, but kept the XP requirement the same, meaning we get more Energy and Cantina Energy. Bonus energy really does help new players, because as the meta shifts they can utilize that to farm currently relevant toons. (I did this with GS when I started playing, all the bonus energy really made me get him up fast, faster than someone already at the level cap). But if said character is someone like RG at Cantina behind a level restriction - the situation changes. So is it friendly to late starters? It depends on your perspective, but as long as arena is AI PVP I could see this being true.
Competing with whales as F2P should be impossible. Okay so here I completely disagree, if I was curbstomped by whales 100% of the time I would just quit. This is not a Pay to Win game and it shouldn't be. Game balance should not be balanced around how much money you have.
How would I feel if a pesky F2P could defeat me and I was a whale? Honestly, I'd be impressed, then I'd change my roster to counter his and lock him out of his payout time for the next 30 minutes because I have money and crystals and I can do that and he can't. (I'm slightly kidding, but yes, money =/= balance). F2P should be competitive vs Whales.
If you have the option of facing these two teams who you gonna fight?
Phasma Lead (Gear X)
Rey (Gear X)
Fives (Gear X)
RG (Gear X)
QGJ (Gear X)
All maximum Omega'd and 7*
or this team
Phasma Lead (Gear VIII)
Rey (Gear VIII)
Fives (Gear IX)
RG (Gear IX)
QGJ (Gear VIII)
And all are 7* except may RG and Rey because F2P and not maxed.
Naturally you're gonna choose the weaker, free to play team, that in itself is already a huge advantage as it affects crystal payouts.
More crystals = more gear and more shards = more power.
@Telaan How many tries it took them to beat that number 3? How many tries you think it takes no3 to beat them? How do you think no3 performs in raids versus those 2 other guys (you can understand what his roster is only from those 5 guys)? You think they keep their spot like no3 does? If their Arena times would be the same as no3, would they ever get no1 ever? If this were live pvp and not playing against AI would they ever win?
I also understand what you are saying, but no3 has the advantage over them. It's not like in my case, because i don't even those 2 f2p players teams, but it's there.
Lol what is happening here? I thought i was having an argument with a p2p player. Nobody is forcing a p2p to spend money. They choose to do so. They chose to refresh 1 million times and buy all the furnaces in sight. They don't have to be stuck in spending wars. If anything they are being exploited because of their 'i can't wait' tendencies. And yes, if someone with a full roster comes into a f2p guild, then he will get #1 in that guild for a loooong time. If he wants to.
People attempting to make f2p vs p2p arguments right now are only distracting themselves as well as others from the real issues facing the game.
Ask this guy if he is more willing to invest money into the game now with the raid update, or less willing.
The gear being available in the shipments is probably ea/gc's way to actually give them something worth their money, instead of spending wars for #1 in raids.
@Telaan How many tries it took them to beat that number 3? How many tries you think it takes no3 to beat them? How do you think no3 performs in raids versus those 2 other guys (you can understand what his roster is only from those 5 guys)? You think they keep their spot like no3 does? If their Arena times would be the same as no3, would they ever get no1 ever? If this were live pvp and not playing against AI would they ever win?
I also understand what you are saying, but no3 has the advantage over them. It's not like in my case, because i don't even those 2 f2p players teams, but it's there.
The discussion is about competitiveness. The fact that someone with that roster is able to still even dream of competing let alone actually do it shows there is not a f2p vs p2p imbalance in this game.
I seriously don't know how anyone can genuinely believe there is. I'm showing pictorial evidence that there's not.
In a game that truly favors p2p players that roster would never be viable in a top 3 spot. Ever. The only reason f2p are feeling a perceived pinch right now is because the increased level cap has allowed p2p players to put distance between them. This is normal in any freemium game. As soon as f2p reach level cap, that gap will really disappear just as it did at 70.
You'll also notice that in the top 3, in that screenshot, there is only one premium toon. Every other one is f2p.
@Telaan How many tries it took them to beat that number 3? How many tries you think it takes no3 to beat them? How do you think no3 performs in raids versus those 2 other guys (you can understand what his roster is only from those 5 guys)? You think they keep their spot like no3 does? If their Arena times would be the same as no3, would they ever get no1 ever? If this were live pvp and not playing against AI would they ever win?
I also understand what you are saying, but no3 has the advantage over them. It's not like in my case, because i don't even those 2 f2p players teams, but it's there.
The discussion is about competitiveness. The fact that someone with that roster is able to still even dream of competing let alone actually do it shows there is not a f2p vs p2p imbalance in this game.
I seriously don't know how anyone can genuinely believe there is. I'm showing pictorial evidence that there's not.
In a game that truly favors p2p players that roster would never be viable in a top 3 spot. Ever. The only reason f2p are feeling a perceived pinch right now is because the increased level cap has allowed p2p players to put distance between them. This is normal in any freemium game. As soon as f2p reach level cap, that gap will really disappear just as it did at 70.
You'll also notice that in the top 3, in that screenshot, there is only one premium toon. Every other one is f2p.
Alright, let's say they can 'compete' although beating the AI is nevermind...Ok...what about raids? Who wins the #1 if those three fight it out?
Also what happens if a f2p god forbids, farms what he wants instead of those toons those two guys farmed for? When is he catching up to no3? He doesn't have a way to get top 3 and he can't buy furnaces.
Then again i really shouldn't wonder, i mean...there is disparity even between f2p lol.
@Telaan How many tries it took them to beat that number 3? How many tries you think it takes no3 to beat them? How do you think no3 performs in raids versus those 2 other guys (you can understand what his roster is only from those 5 guys)? You think they keep their spot like no3 does? If their Arena times would be the same as no3, would they ever get no1 ever? If this were live pvp and not playing against AI would they ever win?
I also understand what you are saying, but no3 has the advantage over them. It's not like in my case, because i don't even those 2 f2p players teams, but it's there.
The discussion is about competitiveness. The fact that someone with that roster is able to still even dream of competing let alone actually do it shows there is not a f2p vs p2p imbalance in this game.
I seriously don't know how anyone can genuinely believe there is. I'm showing pictorial evidence that there's not.
In a game that truly favors p2p players that roster would never be viable in a top 3 spot. Ever. The only reason f2p are feeling a perceived pinch right now is because the increased level cap has allowed p2p players to put distance between them. This is normal in any freemium game. As soon as f2p reach level cap, that gap will really disappear just as it did at 70.
You'll also notice that in the top 3, in that screenshot, there is only one premium toon. Every other one is f2p.
Alright, let's say they can 'compete' although beating the AI is nevermind...Ok...what about raids? Who wins the #1 if those three fight it out?
Also what happens if a f2p god forbids, farms what he wants instead of those toons those two guys farmed for? When is he catching up to no3? He doesn't have a way to get top 3 and he can't buy furnaces.
Then again i really shouldn't wonder, i mean...there is disparity even between f2p lol.
You've just highlighted my point. The design of tiered rewards based on a DPS leaderboard is an abysmal design. I cannot believe it made it out of the beer napkin stage of planning. Raids are a group effort and every member should be rewarded as such. This should be the focus of arguments, not p2p vs f2p.
That leaderboard goes to show it's entirely possible for that team to potentially win. I'm honestly not sure what other discussion there is to be had. I'm not sure what you mean by fight it out though.
If a f2p farms what he wants rather than what is competitive, then he had no one to blame but himself for anything that occurs as a result. I see players make the argument all the time about the meta changing and whales just changing with it. But how true can that be when that player is still running Phasma and fotp? Clearly this game is much more forgiving than many like to give the impression it is.
Ok...what about raids? Who wins the #1 if those three fight it out?
and how about the guy who finishes last in @telaan 's guild ? I think its fair to assume that he probably spend more than the average player, yet he gets 50th place rewards. Spending money got him exactly nothing to show for.. P2L ? makes no sense does it ?
edit: he got double shafted, lost his money, and got a crap reward. Where the f2p only gets a crap reward. does not seem fair to me.
Replies
Yes, they've 'alleviated' the gear problem, but only for one demographic
Yes! Increase the abysmal drop rates and make it cheaper. I don't hate the shard shop at all, but it does have obvious issues regarding game balance
Your suggestion makes a lot of sense, because as a F2P it's all about balance - currency, toons, time etc. So if gear was relatively cheapish you could go, 'hmm I can either refresh Cantina and LS/DS or I can save for 3 days and get the gear. That is already better than what we have currently.
1. this game is very f2p friendly
2. this game is very friendly to late starters
3. competing vs whales should be impossible as a f2p
4. there is a limited amount of players on your arena server, they cant all be whales except for you
5. The gear for crystals is also obtainable via ingame earned crystals (yes you might be forced to do less energy refreshes to strengthen your arena squad instead of widening your bench)
6. once many players reach the lvl 80 cap it will ballance out in favour of f2p
and if we are being honest. How would you feel if you dropped a small fortune on a game and a pescy little f2p player is still able to compete with you ?
there is a ballance between f2p and p2p, and i agree that it is shifting a little more in favour of the p2p than it has been before. But isnt that more fair than all the f2p freeloading on the dollars spend by p2p and still being able to be competative ?
You also have to realize that nobody is forcing anybody to pay! Ok? It's your decision to purchase something and i am not influencing you in any way.
Totally agree too that the level cap needs to remain at 80 for some time just to give F2P a sliver of chance to narrow the gap.
While CG/EA will no doubt need to continue to introduce new content to keep their paying player base happy, simply adding more levels and gears for players to grind through is too simplistic a solution and does nothing to solve the existing problem.
While I can't speak for any P2P as a F2P myself, surely features such as Ingame cosmetic options or the opportunity to compete in elite level PvP events will be welcomed by most P2P. CG/EA needs to get creative with their solutions rather than just offering up more ways for P2P to buy a greater advantage.
No that's not more "fair".
This kind of game also relies on free players, to populate and give the whales someone to dominate.
Freemium also includes "free".
If the game creates too large of a gap between the free and paid players, this will also hurt paying users, since the game needs these f2p. Especially since arena shards are static.
Fun fact: Most freemium games make more money than typical 70$ games, and most of the users are free. They're not freeloaders as you call them, they are actually an incentive to pay, in order to be above this huge mass of free players.
See this as a symbiotic relationship, where both parties take advantage of each other. If one link breaks, the other necessarily dies with it.
As for the rest this great post already said it all.
your whole argumentation supports my statement.
edit; i highlighted the important part
Lol it is true. However gotta applaud you for trying Sikho.
Seriously now, just because i win one fight in Arena against a whale in offense, doesn't mean i have 50 persons squad like him. Or that i can basically stay in top 5 all day without ever being in danger of not getting #1. The advantage whales had was black and white clear and acceptable before this update.
thinking you CAN compete with whales is more masochistic than taking comfort in the fact that you cant.
no offence, but most of the comments here are just ppl who are salty because p2p gained a bit more advantage, not because the p2p and f2p balance is broken. Its emotional and not rational.
example, if you earn $20 and circumstances reduced your pay to $18 an hour you will be upset. But $18 an hour is actually quite a descent amount compared to the global of $16 an hour. (the numbers are not based on actual earnings, just an example)
for the record, i am full f2p. literally full f2p, not the starter pack or stuff like that either.
You seem to be a stranger to the fact that a balance has to be maintained between p2p and f2p. I am not trying to compete with whales, i have no chance to obtain their roster in this lifetime. I only want to beat them in Arena in offense...you know i basically want to win against the AI who is supposed to be terrible. Is that competing with whales in your view? Can i get the gear required for my characters to get them for gear 1 to gear 8 in a couple of days? I am not attacking p2p, but a balance needs to be found here. Raid rewards are a joke between f2p/p2p now and Arena is becoming one.
Just because i dont agree with the OP doesnt mean i completely missed his point. Like i tried to explain in my previous comments, the gap isnt that large. Just because ppl want to be able to compete with the big spenders doesnt mean its fair.
just because i dont agree with what you would like the balance to be like, doesnt mean i dont understand balance.
And you seriously need to stop bringing up the raid rewards, they hurt p2p just as much, and i think even more than f2p.
Sorry, overlooked that last bit. Fair enough, but I still think the gap has widened too much. You may find it not too noticeable now, but I suspect it will increase as more and more preemium gear is needed to level gear X and higher.
I definitely agree that real PVP would confer a huge advantage on max players. It would also destroy any game balance as there would be 1 meta team plus RNG teams that could be successful. It would be a Poe meta again. The game has an intentionly frilled AI as without it the game wouldn't work.
The other reason FTP is competitive is the server spilt. With 5000-10000 servers everyone gets first prize who is dedicated.
I agree with your trend that it's getting worse but disagree that this game is worse for FTP than others.
So...if us 2 would be in the same guild and we would be the only people there and we didn't use any restraints i would get 1st more than you? Huh...interesting guess you learn new things everyday because i thought there wouldn't be a single possible chance for me to get #1 against you. Now let's compare the percentage of f2p to whales...Come on, who are you kidding here?
You are right, i dont find it too noticeable at the moment. I factored in that the gap will widen more over time. And i also factored in that the gap will close slowly once the mayority of the f2p players also reach lvl80. If they increased the lvl cap to 90 before this will happen i would fully agree that the balance will be lost.
I'm sorry, you probably misunderstood me: I agree with you on the fact that whales should dominate the game. That's what this kind of game is about.
What I disagree with is that you believe that f2p are "freeloaders".
They're not. They are necessary for the game to exist. That's why the gap between f2p and p2p must remain large enough to give them a nice competitive edge, but not too large, as it would hurt both sides.
The introduction of gear in shipments is a game-breaking idea that separates p2p and f2p. This gives too many advantages to whales, and creates huge disparities.
i guess you would actually get first more often than me, i havent been playing that long and i am also full f2p. But thats not the point, you fail to understand a very important aspect of being p2p.
you asume p2p has an endless supply of money or something. p2p players are forced to spend more money if they want to #1 in a guild with more than 1 p2p player. Being the only p2p player in a guild of f2p players wouldnt even garantee first place, there are other factors to take into account. p2p players who are stuck in a spending war in their own guild for #1 are being affected way more than us f2p players. The continously increasing amount of money they need to spend to obtain/maintain #1 isnt worth it at all.
you are only lookin at it from a f2p point of view. They can spend more so i cant beat them. But for the p2p player it will become a money drain, wich does NOT benefit them at all. Their money invested in the game will have a smaller return on investment.
freeloaders probably wasnt the best choice of words. I dont agree that creates huge disparities. I tried to explain why in my previous comments.
I've noticed it as well, I'm not sure which of the changes were actually aimed at chromium only toons and if many of the changes were made for raids. So I have to give benefit of the doubt there. But what you say makes a lot of sense and if it continues we will surely notice it and the forum will likely raise it as an issue
I can't agree. Here is my arena board right this moment.
You can see the disparity in not only gear levels but star levels as well. I 100% understand the point you're arguing, but in game evidence contradicts you.
People attempting to make f2p vs p2p arguments right now are only distracting themselves as well as others from the real issues facing the game.
Lol what is happening here? I thought i was having an argument with a p2p player.
Hey, it's fine, you're not being 'that guy' just because you disagree with someone
Yes, the game is very F2P friendly, but I addressed it in the OP. It's pretty much only that way because of poor AI.
Friendly to late starters? I would have agreed with that if they gave us 20 levels instead of 10, but kept the XP requirement the same, meaning we get more Energy and Cantina Energy. Bonus energy really does help new players, because as the meta shifts they can utilize that to farm currently relevant toons. (I did this with GS when I started playing, all the bonus energy really made me get him up fast, faster than someone already at the level cap). But if said character is someone like RG at Cantina behind a level restriction - the situation changes. So is it friendly to late starters? It depends on your perspective, but as long as arena is AI PVP I could see this being true.
Competing with whales as F2P should be impossible. Okay so here I completely disagree, if I was curbstomped by whales 100% of the time I would just quit. This is not a Pay to Win game and it shouldn't be.
Game balance should not be balanced around how much money you have.
How would I feel if a pesky F2P could defeat me and I was a whale? Honestly, I'd be impressed, then I'd change my roster to counter his and lock him out of his payout time for the next 30 minutes because I have money and crystals and I can do that and he can't.
If you have the option of facing these two teams who you gonna fight?
- Phasma Lead (Gear X)
- Rey (Gear X)
- Fives (Gear X)
- RG (Gear X)
- QGJ (Gear X)
All maximum Omega'd and 7*or this team
- Phasma Lead (Gear VIII)
- Rey (Gear VIII)
- Fives (Gear IX)
- RG (Gear IX)
- QGJ (Gear VIII)
And all are 7* except may RG and Rey because F2P and not maxed.Naturally you're gonna choose the weaker, free to play team, that in itself is already a huge advantage as it affects crystal payouts.
More crystals = more gear and more shards = more power.
I also understand what you are saying, but no3 has the advantage over them. It's not like in my case, because i don't even those 2 f2p players teams, but it's there.
no one is forcing you to be f2p either.
Ask this guy if he is more willing to invest money into the game now with the raid update, or less willing.
The gear being available in the shipments is probably ea/gc's way to actually give them something worth their money, instead of spending wars for #1 in raids.
The discussion is about competitiveness. The fact that someone with that roster is able to still even dream of competing let alone actually do it shows there is not a f2p vs p2p imbalance in this game.
I seriously don't know how anyone can genuinely believe there is. I'm showing pictorial evidence that there's not.
In a game that truly favors p2p players that roster would never be viable in a top 3 spot. Ever. The only reason f2p are feeling a perceived pinch right now is because the increased level cap has allowed p2p players to put distance between them. This is normal in any freemium game. As soon as f2p reach level cap, that gap will really disappear just as it did at 70.
You'll also notice that in the top 3, in that screenshot, there is only one premium toon. Every other one is f2p.
Alright, let's say they can 'compete' although beating the AI is nevermind...Ok...what about raids? Who wins the #1 if those three fight it out?
Also what happens if a f2p god forbids, farms what he wants instead of those toons those two guys farmed for? When is he catching up to no3? He doesn't have a way to get top 3 and he can't buy furnaces.
Then again i really shouldn't wonder, i mean...there is disparity even between f2p lol.
You've just highlighted my point. The design of tiered rewards based on a DPS leaderboard is an abysmal design. I cannot believe it made it out of the beer napkin stage of planning. Raids are a group effort and every member should be rewarded as such. This should be the focus of arguments, not p2p vs f2p.
That leaderboard goes to show it's entirely possible for that team to potentially win. I'm honestly not sure what other discussion there is to be had. I'm not sure what you mean by fight it out though.
If a f2p farms what he wants rather than what is competitive, then he had no one to blame but himself for anything that occurs as a result. I see players make the argument all the time about the meta changing and whales just changing with it. But how true can that be when that player is still running Phasma and fotp? Clearly this game is much more forgiving than many like to give the impression it is.
edit: he got double shafted, lost his money, and got a crap reward. Where the f2p only gets a crap reward. does not seem fair to me.