How to tell when Defense Mod Set is better than Health Mod Set (It is for STH)
July 19, 2016 7:25PM
edited August 2016
Edit: So, a lot of players were only reading my first post which included an example with made up numbers. I tried showing HOW it worked with those made up numbers, but people were getting hung up on the fact that the numbers weren’t accurate, not reading my other posts in this thread, and commenting on how the whole thing is wrong. Hence this edit.
Before the math I want to clarify what we are assuming:
(1) That Armor % reduces physical damage by its rated % and Resistance % works the same way for special damage
(2) That the HEALTH set bonus is a multiplicative bonus that increases your base health by 15%
And what were are NOT ASSUMING:
(1) To know anything about the formula that gets us from defense to armor % increase or resistance % increase
(2) I can’t stress enough that we are not assuming that defense bonus increases armor % nominally or even multiplicatively. The increases are different for each character and must be observed.
So here's the math, guys, because I wasn't super clear and it seemed like I used one example to prove my point.
Use an equation to check survivability for Health Mod Bonus:
[Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/[(1-Armor)*Damage]
This is from the health bonus, hence the multiplying by 1.15 on health, a 15% increase. Nothing is being assumed about the exact numbers here, only the HEALTH bonus.
Similarly for Defense Mod Bonus:
[Protection+ Health]/[(1-Armor-X)*Damage]
So here, no increase to health, so no 1.15. Only thing is the X term. This is because X is the Armor increase and it will be reducing the Damage you take by some amount. Note that there are no assumptions on what this amount is.
Set them equal to one another and solve for X. We’ll go step by step this time:
[Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/[(1-Armor)*Damage] =
[Protection+ Health]/[(1-Armor-X)*Damage]
Then
[Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/(1-Armor) = [Protection+ Health]/(1-Armor-X)
So you see, the damage is irrelevant. Not even part of the threshold calculation. Now we gotta get that X by itself:
(1-Armor-X)[Protection+ (Health*1.15)] = [Protection+ Health](1-Armor)
We just multiplied by (1-X) and now we’ll divide by Protection+ (Health*1.15):
(1-Armor-X) = [Protection+ Health](1-Armor)/ [Protection+ (Health*1.15)]
Here's where it gets painstaking:
1-Armor-{[Protection+Health](1-Armor)/[Protection+(Health*1.15)]} = X
If you end up adding X or more % to your armor then you are good to go, defense mods are better.
These comparisons hold all other things equal. This is not to say that YOUR defense mods are better than YOUR health mods. Just that if all primary and secondary bonuses on all your mods were identical and you were choosing between health and defense set bonuses, here’s how you decide.
Example (edit):
Stormtrooper Han Solo, level 80, 7 star, gear 11 (all gear slots able are filled), a 5* Diamond Mod to reflect the fact that he'll start with that as his "base":
Health: 16624
Protection: 18774
Armor: 31.74%*
With these starting numbers and the above equations we see that he needs to add just 4.49% or end up with 36.23% armor rating or more for the defense mod set bonus to be better than the health mod set bonus. This is even further reduced, down to just 3.33% needed, if outfitted with three 23.5% protection Mods.
Edit: Armor has been stealth changed, in case you haven't noticed! At first it seems that perhaps this doesn't mean much, but turns out that it allows Defense Mods to be useful in some cases! A really big one is for a very popular character: STH!
Before the math I want to clarify what we are assuming:
(1) That Armor % reduces physical damage by its rated % and Resistance % works the same way for special damage
(2) That the HEALTH set bonus is a multiplicative bonus that increases your base health by 15%
And what were are NOT ASSUMING:
(1) To know anything about the formula that gets us from defense to armor % increase or resistance % increase
(2) I can’t stress enough that we are not assuming that defense bonus increases armor % nominally or even multiplicatively. The increases are different for each character and must be observed.
So here's the math, guys, because I wasn't super clear and it seemed like I used one example to prove my point.
Use an equation to check survivability for Health Mod Bonus:
[Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/[(1-Armor)*Damage]
This is from the health bonus, hence the multiplying by 1.15 on health, a 15% increase. Nothing is being assumed about the exact numbers here, only the HEALTH bonus.
Similarly for Defense Mod Bonus:
[Protection+ Health]/[(1-Armor-X)*Damage]
So here, no increase to health, so no 1.15. Only thing is the X term. This is because X is the Armor increase and it will be reducing the Damage you take by some amount. Note that there are no assumptions on what this amount is.
Set them equal to one another and solve for X. We’ll go step by step this time:
[Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/[(1-Armor)*Damage] =
[Protection+ Health]/[(1-Armor-X)*Damage]
Then
[Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/(1-Armor) = [Protection+ Health]/(1-Armor-X)
So you see, the damage is irrelevant. Not even part of the threshold calculation. Now we gotta get that X by itself:
(1-Armor-X)[Protection+ (Health*1.15)] = [Protection+ Health](1-Armor)
We just multiplied by (1-X) and now we’ll divide by Protection+ (Health*1.15):
(1-Armor-X) = [Protection+ Health](1-Armor)/ [Protection+ (Health*1.15)]
Here's where it gets painstaking:
1-Armor-{[Protection+Health](1-Armor)/[Protection+(Health*1.15)]} = X
If you end up adding X or more % to your armor then you are good to go, defense mods are better.
These comparisons hold all other things equal. This is not to say that YOUR defense mods are better than YOUR health mods. Just that if all primary and secondary bonuses on all your mods were identical and you were choosing between health and defense set bonuses, here’s how you decide.
Example (edit):
Stormtrooper Han Solo, level 80, 7 star, gear 11 (all gear slots able are filled), a 5* Diamond Mod to reflect the fact that he'll start with that as his "base":
Health: 16624
Protection: 18774
Armor: 31.74%*
With these starting numbers and the above equations we see that he needs to add just 4.49% or end up with 36.23% armor rating or more for the defense mod set bonus to be better than the health mod set bonus. This is even further reduced, down to just 3.33% needed, if outfitted with three 23.5% protection Mods.
Edit: Armor has been stealth changed, in case you haven't noticed! At first it seems that perhaps this doesn't mean much, but turns out that it allows Defense Mods to be useful in some cases! A really big one is for a very popular character: STH!
Post edited by StormTro0p3R_H on
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Howdy, Stranger!
Replies
I was thinking about this very subject this morning. Has anybody really gotten into theorycrafting this topic? Or is it really just that simple? In thinking about how armor works... If a character has 156 armor, what does that really mean? How much does 1 point of armor mitigate?
The armor stat as it was is no more. It is represented by a % that is a damage reduction. It's just that easy: add a defense mod and check how much your armor % increases.
No doubt, but the math remains: defense mod set bonuses are better, if only slightly.
Does this impact special damage as well? or just physical?
I'm imagining defense would be better for arena but health better for GW teams since the larger health pools are better for healing.
This is from a similar discussion in Squad and Character strategies and it is very relevant.
Didn't take into account substantial health steal %. These could tip it into health's favor as well, haven't looked into it much. Phasma is my only health stealer really and she's got speed mods
@ JonVaper Tenacity mods are my favs. Didn't think taunts could resist his Humbling Blow anymore. It works for real?
simple as that !
Not really. Like I've said, if the defense boost makes your armor increase more than 7% the defense mod is better, no matter what your base health is. I'm not saying sell your health mods cause you screwed up, the difference isn't even that big of a deal, but the defense mods are technically better for a lot, if not most, characters in this game. If you don't think so then show me why I'm wrong. If you're just disagreeing because you, like nearly everyone else, loaded up on Health mods, then that's just silly.
That's kind of like saying people who are taller than they are rich.
In theory, your statement could be correct. But before the "fix" to mods, offense mods and crit damage mods both gave 40%. It didn't matter if you had high crit chance or not, offense was the way to go. Now...maybe having "higher hp than def" makes hp mods a better bet, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the def turns out better every time anyway.
Resistance changes with defense bonus as well, yes. It is only about 20% as effective, though, but possibly higher in specific situations. The only reason it matters at all is QGJ, really. Health pool does matter for healing if you run one. So Lumi builds get better with health mods.
I was looking at the SWGOH.GG site and it still shows an integer for defense value on the characters, so I was curious what the relationship or ratio of defense is to damage in that case.
Edit: Okay so just looked at the character screen and it's shown as a percent reduction. Rex for example is 15.85% for me right now. So potentially a 5% set bonus can make it 20.85% then? Putting that in perspective; if Rey's Leverage were to land for 13K then at 15.85% armor I'd reduce that by about 2061 and at 20.85% by about 2711?
when i look into character stats i see nowhere the "defense" stats.. so how can you do the math precisely ?
With a Heal , Health will always be better because you can get you Hp back not defense
health steal is a % too base on you Hp
if i have a 11% defense mod , where do i see this number in the stats screen ??
because i can't see it at all and combine armor + resis = less than 11%
Make Zader Great Again!
There are two sections in the start screen, physical survivability, and special survivability. Both of them have a damage reduction percent. Armor and resistance are both still stats, but they are not shown on the stat screen any more in the interest of making the game mechanics less clear. But defense percent still increases these numbers of armor and resistance by the percentage indicated, which is then translated into damage reduction, and added to the displayed percentage damage reduction.
You can check armor and resistance numbers on swgoh.gg to find out who benefits the most from defense mods, but you'll have to check in game to see what those numbers actually mean in practice.
Thanks! Looks like I'll have to farm some defense set mods
Make Zader Great Again!
@Drekulviin
When you attack look at the digits, on someone with 10% hp steal if they hit for 6750
You should see 650 hp in green
Yeah you're right ! I mixed Luminara heal per turn with health steal