"In My Opinion the Jedi are Evil" - "It's Time for the Jedi to End"
July 14, 2017 8:09PM
edited July 2017
Why would Anakin become so lost to believe that the Jedi are evil?
Why would Luke, the hero who so boldly claimed to be a Jedi, Like his father before him, now want the Jedi to end?
I think this is an interesting discussion for the forum. My thoughts about the issue are this:
Any extreme light or dark is bad. Any extreme in real life, whether you are a religious extremist or whatever is never good. People take things too far being lost in their beliefs that they end up causing much more harm than good. Applying this back to the Star Wars Universe, we can clearly see that the Darkside in a path of evil, but what about the Jedi - they are at the opposite end of that spectrum and are themselves extremists...
1. Taking force sensitive children away from their parents and families to train as Jedi - are these children young enough to be brain washed into the Jedi ideology? Anakin was apparently too old for this.
2. As the darkside or Sith use their raw emotions to power their connection to the force - the Jedi taking children away from their families also helps sever any ties to their emotions in order to become selfless knights of the Jedi. The lack of emotion the Jedi then have, can they be considered cold and emotionless themselves? A bit of a strange scenario for an order of people to care for and protect the galaxy as guardians of peace and justice.
3. Again this fear of emotion the Jedi seem to have is the purpose of keeping those in their order from straying to the darkside. However, this is their FEAR, which Yoda himself states is itself a path to the darkside.
4. Their involvement in the clone war acting as generals was wrong. They were keepers of the peace not soldiers. Qui-Gon Jinn explains to Padme at the Battle of Naboo, that he can only protect her and not fight a war for her. The Jedi order blindly lept into the role as generals at war commanding battalions and armies of republic forces in a war that stretched to ever corner of the galaxy - how is this keeping the peace?
5. Qui-Gon had his own philosophy regarding the Living Force, which was frowned upon by his jedi peers, so much so that he was never appointed as a member of the Jedi Council. Yet his philosophy was not wrong and in fact pathed the way to immortality through the force, which in fact is part of the Jedi Code - "There is no death, there is the Force". Anything that deviated from what the majority of Jedi believed was apparently wrong.
6. Jedi are to protect those in the galaxy - Knights of Peace and Justice. Yet not all Jedi found value in all life. Obi Wan when he first met Jar Jar asked his master "What's this?" and also explained that the did not have time to save Jar Jar, who had helped them escape the Trade Federation, from his fate with the Gunguns. Qui-Gon found value in all life, even Jar Jar's and saved him in turn. Jedi also did not uphold Justice in the galaxy when Anakin wanted to free the slaves of the galaxy.
7. Jedi use raw emotion too - Obi Wan was full of rage and vengeance towards Darth Maul after seeing his master killed. As was Luke when Darth Vader threatened his sister. Anakin slaughtered Tuskens due to the death of his mother. Even Master Yoda states that arrogance is a flaw more and more common amongst Jedi. Mace Windu clearly shows disdain towards Anakin - mistrust and hatred, from day 1. Mace did not believe Anakin to be the Chosen One and did not want to train him in the first place. He later confirms his absolute distrust with Anakin in ROTS.
8. Jedi do not kill - Anakin killed Dooku while he was at his mercy. Seeing and experiencing this, Anakin saw Mace attempt to strike down Darth Sidious in a similar fashion. Believing Windu to be a wise and powerful Jedi Master of the Council, this was the very worst of a Jedi that should know better and act differently.
9. The Jedi blindly fought in the Clone Wars against the Separatist Army. Even when Dooku told Obi wan that Darth Sidious controlled the Republic, the Jedi were still blind to see the truth or even consider if they were on the right side of the war. Quite clearly the Jedi serve the Republic, not the free peoples of the galaxy. This is also seen in the Republics treatment towards Ahsoka, echoed by the Jedi in expelling her from the Order.
10. Only a Sith deals in absolutes - obviously the Jedi do as well, for they are quick to destroy Sith, just as the Sith are quick to destroy the Jedi.
11. Teaching - Obi Wan berates Anakin, not only personally but publicly. This is not the way a good teacher teaches his/her student. It is cold and embarrassing for everyone. Anakin feels that he was held back in his teachings with the Jedi and Obi Wan explains he was not ready to teach someone like Anakin. Mace also isolates Anakin from the Jedi, preventing Anakin from engaging on missions and was quick to point out that he was a member of the Jedi Council but not a Jedi, his cold expression to push Anakin aside when Anakin felt wronged, he also ordered Anakin not to save Obi Wan on Geonosis, not to engage with Grievous or Darth Sidious, instead keeping him in the Council Chambers like some Disney princess locked in a tower.
Yoda - would rather teach Anakin to bury his feelings and let go what he fears to lose, rather than helping understand Anakin's problem. The council also forbid Anakin to save his mother, when he could feel that something was wrong and she was in danger. While Sidious explained that those gifted with the darkside had the power to save the ones they love from death.
12. Lies and deceit, creating mistrust are the ways of the darkside - but also the Jedi. From Anakin's perspective, the Jedi were doing the exact same to him in regard to his mentor and friend, Palpatine. In fact what the Jedi were doing was treason, according to Anakin.
13. As Darth Sidious said, all who gain power are afraid to lose it, even the Jedi. Despite being outcast within the Jedi Order, Yoda and Obi Wan were quick to learn the immortal powers of Qui Gon, a power no other Jedi had achieved. And those with power seek more power. Mace was wanting to take control of the senate, once Sidious was defeated - to a darkplace that line of thinking were taking the Jedi, as Yoda rightly saw and warned.
14. Obi Wan and Yoda were not training Luke to become a Jedi, if he was a Jedi at the end result that was a bonus. He was too old and reckless, as they both agreed. Luke was nothing more than a weapon to destroy the Sith. If the Jedi were compassionate, they would have been honest about Luke's heritage and who his family were.
15. The Jedi in their overwhelmingly large number compared to the 2 Sith Lords failed to understand what balance in the force was. Their arrogance and corrupt teachings believed the prophecy was created in their favour - to destroy the sith and bring balance to the force. A prophecy that misread could have been.
Its time for the Jedi to End
1. Prophecy of the Chosen One was to bring balance to the force. The force was out of balance, far too many Jedi as compared to Sith. The Jedi teachings had become corrupt. The Jedi needed to be cast off balance as Darth Vader rightly did. Anakin then destroyed the Sith.
2. Luke was the sole surviving Jedi, born from corrupt teachings of Yoda and Obi Wan. His Jedi code was flawed as the Jedi were flawed. Yet the Sith are also flawed themselves - too much extreme on either end is not desirable - hence the need for balance. With the destruction of the his Jedi Academy, and solace perhaps Luke has come to realize this. He is now the Last Jedi
3. If one is to understand the great mystery of the force, one is to understand all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the jedi - nor the teachings of the darkside, but both. The most powerful view of the force is the one in the middle - the Bendu.
4. It also took the power of both Sith and Jedi holocrons to have unlimited knowledge - as discovered by Maul and Ezra in Rebels.
5. But the Sith holocron is evil! - is it? It is just an object. Is the darkside of the force evil if used for the purpose of good? What power and knowledge was hidden from the Sith and the Jedi alike.
6. In which case can someone deal with absolutes? Jedi or Sith - what about just the Force and here is balance.
7. Snoke is interested in Kylo Ren because of his want for the darkside and his struggle with the light. Rey closes her eyes and sees dark and light. Both Rey and Kylo are working towards a greater understanding of the force in the balance of both light and dark. But to what purpose are Snoke's intentions and perhaps that is beyond the knowledge and power of any Jedi - therefore Rey must find the balance also - it is time for the Jedi to end?
8. Truly now is the prophecy of the chosen one is complete?
Bit of a long post I know, but certainly all thought provoking - if any of you have anything to add or comment about please post below, I am sure there are many things I have missed that further confirm the corruption of the Jedi, the reason the Jedi must end and the balance of the force - so please post away!
Thanks
Why would Luke, the hero who so boldly claimed to be a Jedi, Like his father before him, now want the Jedi to end?
I think this is an interesting discussion for the forum. My thoughts about the issue are this:
Any extreme light or dark is bad. Any extreme in real life, whether you are a religious extremist or whatever is never good. People take things too far being lost in their beliefs that they end up causing much more harm than good. Applying this back to the Star Wars Universe, we can clearly see that the Darkside in a path of evil, but what about the Jedi - they are at the opposite end of that spectrum and are themselves extremists...
1. Taking force sensitive children away from their parents and families to train as Jedi - are these children young enough to be brain washed into the Jedi ideology? Anakin was apparently too old for this.
2. As the darkside or Sith use their raw emotions to power their connection to the force - the Jedi taking children away from their families also helps sever any ties to their emotions in order to become selfless knights of the Jedi. The lack of emotion the Jedi then have, can they be considered cold and emotionless themselves? A bit of a strange scenario for an order of people to care for and protect the galaxy as guardians of peace and justice.
3. Again this fear of emotion the Jedi seem to have is the purpose of keeping those in their order from straying to the darkside. However, this is their FEAR, which Yoda himself states is itself a path to the darkside.
4. Their involvement in the clone war acting as generals was wrong. They were keepers of the peace not soldiers. Qui-Gon Jinn explains to Padme at the Battle of Naboo, that he can only protect her and not fight a war for her. The Jedi order blindly lept into the role as generals at war commanding battalions and armies of republic forces in a war that stretched to ever corner of the galaxy - how is this keeping the peace?
5. Qui-Gon had his own philosophy regarding the Living Force, which was frowned upon by his jedi peers, so much so that he was never appointed as a member of the Jedi Council. Yet his philosophy was not wrong and in fact pathed the way to immortality through the force, which in fact is part of the Jedi Code - "There is no death, there is the Force". Anything that deviated from what the majority of Jedi believed was apparently wrong.
6. Jedi are to protect those in the galaxy - Knights of Peace and Justice. Yet not all Jedi found value in all life. Obi Wan when he first met Jar Jar asked his master "What's this?" and also explained that the did not have time to save Jar Jar, who had helped them escape the Trade Federation, from his fate with the Gunguns. Qui-Gon found value in all life, even Jar Jar's and saved him in turn. Jedi also did not uphold Justice in the galaxy when Anakin wanted to free the slaves of the galaxy.
7. Jedi use raw emotion too - Obi Wan was full of rage and vengeance towards Darth Maul after seeing his master killed. As was Luke when Darth Vader threatened his sister. Anakin slaughtered Tuskens due to the death of his mother. Even Master Yoda states that arrogance is a flaw more and more common amongst Jedi. Mace Windu clearly shows disdain towards Anakin - mistrust and hatred, from day 1. Mace did not believe Anakin to be the Chosen One and did not want to train him in the first place. He later confirms his absolute distrust with Anakin in ROTS.
8. Jedi do not kill - Anakin killed Dooku while he was at his mercy. Seeing and experiencing this, Anakin saw Mace attempt to strike down Darth Sidious in a similar fashion. Believing Windu to be a wise and powerful Jedi Master of the Council, this was the very worst of a Jedi that should know better and act differently.
9. The Jedi blindly fought in the Clone Wars against the Separatist Army. Even when Dooku told Obi wan that Darth Sidious controlled the Republic, the Jedi were still blind to see the truth or even consider if they were on the right side of the war. Quite clearly the Jedi serve the Republic, not the free peoples of the galaxy. This is also seen in the Republics treatment towards Ahsoka, echoed by the Jedi in expelling her from the Order.
10. Only a Sith deals in absolutes - obviously the Jedi do as well, for they are quick to destroy Sith, just as the Sith are quick to destroy the Jedi.
11. Teaching - Obi Wan berates Anakin, not only personally but publicly. This is not the way a good teacher teaches his/her student. It is cold and embarrassing for everyone. Anakin feels that he was held back in his teachings with the Jedi and Obi Wan explains he was not ready to teach someone like Anakin. Mace also isolates Anakin from the Jedi, preventing Anakin from engaging on missions and was quick to point out that he was a member of the Jedi Council but not a Jedi, his cold expression to push Anakin aside when Anakin felt wronged, he also ordered Anakin not to save Obi Wan on Geonosis, not to engage with Grievous or Darth Sidious, instead keeping him in the Council Chambers like some Disney princess locked in a tower.
Yoda - would rather teach Anakin to bury his feelings and let go what he fears to lose, rather than helping understand Anakin's problem. The council also forbid Anakin to save his mother, when he could feel that something was wrong and she was in danger. While Sidious explained that those gifted with the darkside had the power to save the ones they love from death.
12. Lies and deceit, creating mistrust are the ways of the darkside - but also the Jedi. From Anakin's perspective, the Jedi were doing the exact same to him in regard to his mentor and friend, Palpatine. In fact what the Jedi were doing was treason, according to Anakin.
13. As Darth Sidious said, all who gain power are afraid to lose it, even the Jedi. Despite being outcast within the Jedi Order, Yoda and Obi Wan were quick to learn the immortal powers of Qui Gon, a power no other Jedi had achieved. And those with power seek more power. Mace was wanting to take control of the senate, once Sidious was defeated - to a darkplace that line of thinking were taking the Jedi, as Yoda rightly saw and warned.
14. Obi Wan and Yoda were not training Luke to become a Jedi, if he was a Jedi at the end result that was a bonus. He was too old and reckless, as they both agreed. Luke was nothing more than a weapon to destroy the Sith. If the Jedi were compassionate, they would have been honest about Luke's heritage and who his family were.
15. The Jedi in their overwhelmingly large number compared to the 2 Sith Lords failed to understand what balance in the force was. Their arrogance and corrupt teachings believed the prophecy was created in their favour - to destroy the sith and bring balance to the force. A prophecy that misread could have been.
Its time for the Jedi to End
1. Prophecy of the Chosen One was to bring balance to the force. The force was out of balance, far too many Jedi as compared to Sith. The Jedi teachings had become corrupt. The Jedi needed to be cast off balance as Darth Vader rightly did. Anakin then destroyed the Sith.
2. Luke was the sole surviving Jedi, born from corrupt teachings of Yoda and Obi Wan. His Jedi code was flawed as the Jedi were flawed. Yet the Sith are also flawed themselves - too much extreme on either end is not desirable - hence the need for balance. With the destruction of the his Jedi Academy, and solace perhaps Luke has come to realize this. He is now the Last Jedi
3. If one is to understand the great mystery of the force, one is to understand all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the jedi - nor the teachings of the darkside, but both. The most powerful view of the force is the one in the middle - the Bendu.
4. It also took the power of both Sith and Jedi holocrons to have unlimited knowledge - as discovered by Maul and Ezra in Rebels.
5. But the Sith holocron is evil! - is it? It is just an object. Is the darkside of the force evil if used for the purpose of good? What power and knowledge was hidden from the Sith and the Jedi alike.
6. In which case can someone deal with absolutes? Jedi or Sith - what about just the Force and here is balance.
7. Snoke is interested in Kylo Ren because of his want for the darkside and his struggle with the light. Rey closes her eyes and sees dark and light. Both Rey and Kylo are working towards a greater understanding of the force in the balance of both light and dark. But to what purpose are Snoke's intentions and perhaps that is beyond the knowledge and power of any Jedi - therefore Rey must find the balance also - it is time for the Jedi to end?
8. Truly now is the prophecy of the chosen one is complete?
Bit of a long post I know, but certainly all thought provoking - if any of you have anything to add or comment about please post below, I am sure there are many things I have missed that further confirm the corruption of the Jedi, the reason the Jedi must end and the balance of the force - so please post away!
Thanks
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Replies
I will say that in today's political climate being what it is with the left dead-set against the right and vice-versa, the concept of bringing balance by pulling from both sides strikes a sensitive chord with the audience. I think the time for bringing grey jedi to the big screen is long overdue and will be welcomed by the fans.
And please just stop with the prophecy
ObiWan was vengeful towards Maul when Maul killed QGJ? My interpretation was he had to be very focused because he knew who Maul was (Sith) and that ObiWan was in a fight to his death or the defeat of Maul. Did he have to kill Maul? No, but what was obi wan supposed to do, stop fighting when he jumped out of the pit and reason with an assassin/murderer/whatever title fits? Or try to reason at any point? I don't see that happening.
Maybe I misunderstood, but this is what I gathered from OPs post: good is supposed to fold, crumble away, be redefined, etc., and evil can keep being and doing evil, and can be redefined also as doing good.
However another parallel of hypocrisy can be drawn at the execution of dooku and palpatine. Both were going to die in a similar manner but anikin (despite it not being his sole reason) voiced that he felt it was wrong to execute palps like he did dooku. And that's something I feel is really prominent in the prequels, doing the wrong thing in the belief of being on the moral high ground (which I also think obi wan meant figuratively and literally)
the slavery. Anikin was a slave and he was gambled out of it, and they all powerful people who did it couldn't get his mom or anyone out because it wasn't in their best interests like lil ani. Personally I think episode 1-2 should have a stronger emphasis on his past as we really got nothing until his mum got kilt other than him being cold all the time and him hating sand. On top of that the people who rescued him have him refer to anyone at a higher status than him as "master" which eventually got to him when he couldn't become a council member, just cementing his status as a lowly little slave boy.
Personally I could write a whole freakin essay about the prequel trilogy, however that is with a lot of mental gymnastics about what is supposed to correlate, what's metaphorical and what is supposed to be taken at face value. Personally I think they were a shimmy away from being a masterpiece, but between the dialogue and (if it was actually intentional) the things you're supposed to piece together it fell slightly short of that.
Why would Anakin become so lost to believe that the Jedi are evil?
This is what the plot of the sequel trilogy explains to us. First of all Anakin was deceived both by Palpatine and his own desire to control his circumstances. Second, the Jedi were also deceived by Palpatine and they were corrupted by their own arrogance which Palpatine was able to exploit. Anakin recognized the failures of the Jedi Order however he was unable to properly processes it or deal with it due to the dark side of the force's influence over him.
Why would Luke, the hero who so boldly claimed to be a Jedi, Like his father before him, now want the Jedi to end?
We don't have enough context to answer this question. We don't know why Luke says this. We don't even know if it will actually be in the movie.
No.
Unlike QGJ, Obi Wan after seeing his master die, was not a cool, collected level headed and patient fighter. He immediately went on the offensive in an aggressive way. I am not saying what he did wasn't effective, but Yoda did not fight with such ferocity and neither did Mace again Sidious. Of course Obi Wan had no choice but to kill Maul when hanging from the pit and I am not surprised he did.
He was only able to do so when he was hanging there he was able to recollect his thoughts, cool down and focus. He used the force as a Jedi should to get the advantage on Maul in the end.
Such a bold statement will surely be in the movie and the question again is why? Especially after proving from what we saw in the PT that the Jedi Order had indeed become corrupt in its teachings.
I also think it will be in the movie, but that is just conjecture at this point. More and more trailers bend what actually appears, or put focus on stuff that doesn't actually end up meaning anything for marketing purposes.
Read your whole post, and pretty much agree with you across the board. The emotionless doctrine in particular is troubling. All those things that "good Jedi" are instructed to leave behind are what makes people human. Shedding them is how you wind up with people uncaring to the plight of slaves and what have you.
Another point that illustrates their issues that you didn't touch on: Why were they directly tied in with the Republic in the first place? The Republic has nothing to do with the Force, and if the will of the Force were to conflict with the best interests of the Republic what are the Jedi supposed to do? They should have never been in bed together in the first place.
Great post, interesting discussion.
I agree 100% re: Jedi and Republic - clearly the Clone Wars illustrates that there was a conflict with Jedi and serving the Republic.
I also agree about the trailer - so much of the R1 trailer never made it to the final cut. So, I guess we'll see.
Running off to cloud city put Luke, his friends, and the entire rebellion at risk. The only reason luke survived was because of vader's overconfidence and reliance on the sith teachings of personal connection and emotion. If Vader had followed Jedi beliefs in objectivity and resiliance, he would have succeeded in bringing luke to the emperor instead of wasting his opportunity on trying to lure luke to his side by promising the destruction of the empire.
Its worth mentioning that severing personal attachment is not the same as avoiding all empathy and compassion. Empathy allows the examination of conflicting points of view and a compassionate moral code ensures that decisions are made with the intent of helping others, however its possible to maintain these traits without establishing personal attachments.
I believe that the best demonstration of this kind of moral resiliance is in the Clone Wars when Maul tempts Obi Wan to the dark side by threatening the woman he loved (no, they never hooked up. That would undermine the point of the scene). Obi Wan demonstrates a true, less obvious yet deep strength by not letting his personal feelings for sabine cloud his reason and judgement. His strength surprises Maul who can't even comprehend that level of discipline.
TLDR: the teachings of the jedi are not easy to comprehend or to follow. Becoming a true jedi is extremely difficult and results in emotional alienation from the ones you love. However when truly internalized, those teachings are much, much stronger than anything that the dark side can promise.
That being said I believe that if they are going to do justice to the star wars universe with the next 2 films then their still needs to be a chosen one who will actually bring balance to the force as the original prophecy stated.
So how do you bring balance? remove all jedi and sith? or bring them together?
Killing all of either side has failed multiple times now so im leaning towards bringing them together. So how do you bring 2 factions bent on killing each other together?
Invoke a new threat that requires their unison to combat it. We know kylo is no sith(atleast yet) even though he idolizes his sith grandfather, so possibly snoke isnt a sith either and he is the outside force that the universe needs to come together to defeat.
Another option to me would be that a sith and a jedi have a baby and could bread a new generation that sees their parents factions as archaic but that would be more of a storyline for the next trilogy ep 10-12 if we ever get there.
Where we currently are in the story though the most important hidden information is who is snoke and whats reys lineage. Rey in her little force vision heard the voices of multiple people from both jedi and sith factions so that indicates she is the balancing character. Those questions will hopefully answer alot of questions.
Just some of the ideas I play around with in my head while trying to think out the future story.
I disagree that the prequels did a terrible job of conveying what the jedi order is truly about and how they are truly strong. The prequels were not intended to tell that story according to George Lucas. The intent of those movies was to tell us how a good republic became an evil empire and how a good Anakin Skywalker became the evil Darth Vader.
In fact we are never really objectively told (in canon) what the Jedi Order was really about. We are given glimpses as you have mentioned above about the Jedi being guardians of peace and such. But you have to consider the characters that are telling you about the order.
For example, let's consider Yoda and Kenobi because you talked about them. They do accomplish some amazing things and are indeed protagonists. But in the Star Wars story (by which I mean the overarching story told by George Lucas through the original 3 movies) the only truly strong character who overcomes all odds is not Yoda or Kenobi it's Luke Skywalker. And the reason Luke prevailed as the hero of the story is not only because he didn't give in to the temptation of the Emperor or Vader, but also because he didn't listen to the wrong advice from Yoda and Kenobi who wanted him to kill his own father.
In the prequels we are introduced to a Jedi Order that is weak and selfish. Yoda and Kenobi are examples of why the Jedi Order failed and was unable to overcome the dark side. True strength and compassion was ultimately found in Luke, who through love was able to redeem the chosen one and became a true Jedi -- not like Yoda or Kenobi -- but like or similar to his father before him.
Excellent post and some good points. Luke's compassion for his father is what saves him and the rebellion from the emperor. In the OT, yoda and kenobi are wrong about vader's emotional state. He is in fact conflicted and capable of redemption.
However, i still maintain my point that the prequel movies do not effectively communicate either the teachings of the jedi, or why they fall. In the movies, the jedi fall only because palpatine was able to cloud himself and his actions in the dark side (windu and yoda's lines suggest this). Whether or not the hypocrisies and internal flaws of the jedi order in the films were intentional or due to bad, inconsistent writing, i believe the fact that they are so unclear until retroactively explained in Clone Wars is quite telling of the poor writing.
@PiffGuru - you make some interesting points but also some crazy ones in my opinion.
It was clearly stated that Anakin was the Chosen One, that brought balance by way of eradication of the Jedi as Darth Vader and then the Sith as a redeemed Anakin Skywalker.
The trouble is Luke was a sole surviving Jedi - so how is there balance. I believe that the prophecy began with Anakin, and carries on in his lineage. As his children are the result of the Chosen One's action in life. Only the lineage of the chosen one can bring proper balance to the force - is that Luke now admitting that the Jedi must end? or is it Rey, that can see both dark and light if she is indeed the daughter of Luke himself?
I do not believe that Snoke is sith, perhaps he was once but certainly no more, as there are no more SIth, but he is certainly darkside. However, it hints in TFA that Snoke in interested in the power of Kylo, not jest because of his relation to Vader, but his struggle with the light and dark.
Sidious says you must understand the force in al its aspects dark & light to become a true master of the force. Surely the idea of this kind of power attracts Snoke, but the failings of the Jedi I am sure attracts Luke as well.
I believe this will be the birth of balance and the final result of the prophecy.
In answer to @SWGAMER6 - While the PT was about the Repubic transforming into an evil EMpire just as much as the jedi hero Anakin Skywalker turning to the sith lord Darth Vader - the ultimate journey to those outcomes were poorly portrayed in the PT, which includes the corruption of the Jedi.
@DatBoi - I think you are spot on re: Yoda and Obi Wan compared to Luke and how Luke triumphed.
Luke lost to Vader in ESB. Vader could have killed him but it was because of his love and care for his son that he held back and did not. He was also testing Luke's abilities.
However, Luke saw that Yoda and Obi Wan were wrong about Vader - death was not the only option as he was able to be redeemed. Vader was conflicted because of his emotions and attachment to Luke - such things that Jedi do not allow, so of course Yoda and Obi Wan did not see this outcome. His emotional attachment redeemed a sith lord to the light side - another example of why the Jedi teachings are corrupt and why the emotions of the dark side assist the light = grey (light and dark mixed).
Darkside power may not be evil if its purpose is good.
Re: Bolded: I definitely think those hypocrisies were intentional, as arrogance and it's consequences was a huge overarching theme throughout the entire series.
Ep1 - "I don't think the Sith could've returned without us knowing." Boom, dead Jedi Master, Sith Lord elected Supreme Chancelor.
Ep2: "We'll take him together..." "I'm taking him now!" Boom, two severely wounded Jedi, Dooku escapes while Yoda saves them.
Ep3: "In the name of The Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest."/"He's too dangerous to be left alive" Boom, Order 66
Ep4: "Evacuate!? in our moment of truimph?" Boom, thousands dead, including one of the most brilliant minds in the Empire.
Ep5: "Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son." Boom, the last Jedi, and only remotely credible threat to the dark side escapes instead of dies.
Ep6: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, up there on the sanctuary moon, are walking into a trap, as is your Rebel fleet. It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator...I'm afraid the shield generator will be quite operational when your friends arrive." Boom shield goes down, the death star blows up and thousands of imperials die.
The arrogance and fall of the Jedi in spite of their code mirrors the arrogance and fall of the Empire.
The original movies heavily implied that Luke was the chosen one, and the prequels implied that it was Anakin that was the chosen one, I dont think its a huge leap to think that they were wrong once again.
Also thinking that palpatine and vader dying is the end of the sith is flawed imo since there was what like an 800-1000 year period where the jedi believed the sith were long since dead only to find out one was in hiding(actually was 2 but palpatine killed his master before he was found), and it seems to be common practice for a sith underling to train his own padawan?(or whatever u call a sith trainee) so that they could overthrow the primary sith master, and that has been explored in the games with starkiller.
sooo its plausible that there was another affiliated with the sith since sith like to break their own rules to suit their needs and snoke could be that person. or that person could appear much later down the line.
Also I like crazy ideas, thinking outside the box is what makes for a good story.
Very good point, Snoke does seem to be intimately familiar with the inner workings of what happened with Vader and Luke, and specifically says he saw the rise and fall of the Empire, he could have been a secret apprentice of Vader for all we know.
Yah thats what I got out of it too. Sounds more like palpatine talking to anakin than a forum post.
He's just writing under the assumption that you already know why the bad guys are the bad guys.
They call them apprentices.
There was no "chosen one" in the OT. The prophecy is strictly PT.
It's partly the Jedi's fault for the clone wars even taking place. They approved the use of the clones to fight the Sith (separatist) even though the separatist were a legitimate government that split away peacefully from the Republic. The only politically legitimate reason they (Republic and Jedi) had to fight the separatists was
1. The seps allegedly hired Jango Fett to assasinate a Republic senator.
And
2. The seps were building a secret Droid army (even though the Republic allowed the Techno union, trade federation and Banking clan control of private navies and armies prior to their separation).
The separatist showed no open hostility towards the republic to warrant an open conflict. Their reasons to start a war are flimsy at best and if Palpatine wasn't secretly a Sith he wouldn't have approved of this war, so I could see why many people in the galaxy would see this war as a Jedi "crusade" of sorts to kill what the Jedi thought was the last of the Sith.
Thanks - if I had to spell out to the post why the bad guys are the bad guys my already long initial post would have been much much longer, lol
This is true, but in Star Wars Rebels, the dying Maul asks Obi Wan if the person he is protecting on Tatooine (Luke) is the Chosen One and Obi Wan replies he is.
I do not believe that Luke is the chosen one at all and Obi Wans response to Maul, I believe, continues to show Jedi arrogance in that their failed chosen one did not accomplish what the Jedi believed he was meant to accomplish, so now the Jedi believe Luke to be the Chosen One.
Anakin/Vader was quite clearly the chosen one, however Luke is the result of action taken within the life of the chosen one, so I would believe the prophecy lives on in Luke to find the balance, which is what he is doing with Rey (training her in dark and light) and his belief that the jedi must end. If indeed Rey is Luke's daughter I would suggest this path of the prophecy to ultimate fulfillment:
* Anakin/Vader - destroys Jedi and Sith (he himself is Jedi & Sith)
* Luke - sole surviving Jedi realizes Jedi order is flawed, discovers balance in force (dark & light)
* Rey - student of Luke and first student of the force (dark & light)
* The force is now balanced
Although there are some theories that Rey is the next Chosen One - I do not believe this to be true. Other people may also try to claim that Anakin/Vader was actually not the Chosen One - Star Wars Clone Wars is considered Cannon, therefore Anakin's control over the Son and Daughter of Mortis (Dark & Light) proves he was the chosen one, so he was.
Considering that the prophecy is ancient and that Anakin was indeed the chosen one, it seems highly unlikely that the force would spit out another chosen one within such a short time after Anakin's existence - that would be like Jesus coming down to Earth every few decades to keep saving us all from our sins - I don't buy it and hope this "theory" about Rey is false.