It's not George Lucas' fault if you don't like the story he created. You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with all of it. But you need to accept that it's his story as is. You either accept all of it or none of it. He is the artist and star wars is his art work -- his painting. You don't have the right to tear pieces of his painting off of the canvas simply because you don't like it. You can say, "Well I enjoy this but not that about this painting", but you still have to accept the whole painting as a work of the artist.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
After reading the novelization of TFA, I can guarantee you that there is nothing to provide more enlightenment in the book. I mean, the novel provides exactly zero additional insight. Almost like there really is nothing more to the story that what we see on the screen. No depth. Shallow.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
I'm an older fan. I liked TFA but I did think it came across more as fan service. That ticked me off at first but it doesn't surprise me now knowing that all new star wars is being made more by fans and less by people who aster willing to be creative like George Lucas was. Disney had to produce results that justified their purchase of Lucasfilm so I understand that.
I personally think that George Lucas would have done a much better job at least as far as the sequel story goes especially if he was working with Casdin. I know Disney is using his overall framework for the ST but I think George Lucas would have given us something more original. That said I'm still looking forward to ep8, 9 and beyond (although I could care less about a Han Solo movie)
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that cocky arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
Good call with Finn. I think the difference with Rey compared to Luke is that Ben has been observing Luke since he gave him to Owen and Beru (I don't know how the heck to spell her name). More than that Ben was expecting Luke to be force sensitive like his father, even to the point that he would kill Vader and the Emperor.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
@fascizio I like what you had to say. I don't remember much of Force Awakens as I didn't particularly like it. But what you said about Kylo not taking Finn seriously makes sense. I didn't remember him acting that way. In regards to Luke, I believe he hit with the two torpedos because Obi Wan was with him in a sense. So I still believe that Rey using the force was a bit much. Maybe the newer movies will provide more background about why she is so force sensitive. I don't know. I'm not a big fan of CGI. I like the way the old movies were made with the models and I think Luke, Han and Leia pulled off jokes and one liners better than the new actors in Force Awakens.. Thanks for your perspective. Appreciated.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
@fascizio I like what you had to say. I don't remember much of Force Awakens as I didn't particularly like it. But what you said about Kylo not taking Finn seriously makes sense. I didn't remember him acting that way. In regards to Luke, I believe he hit with the two torpedos because Obi Wan was with him in a sense. So I still believe that Rey using the force was a bit much. Maybe the newer movies will provide more background about why she is so force sensitive. I don't know. I'm not a big fan of CGI. I like the way the old movies were made with the models and I think Luke, Han and Leia pulled off jokes and one liners better than the new actors in Force Awakens.. Thanks for your perspective. Appreciated.
Yeah, Ford especially brought a lot of life to the originals in his delivery. Boyega and Ridley just aren't there yet, maybe they'll get better with time and experience.
As far as the CGI that may be the root of where we diverge in our opinions. Like I said the originals were what I grew up with, but I was young enough, and into movies in general enough, that the CGI never bothered me. In fact I remember walking out of Episode II thinking well that was terrible, but the Geonosis battle scene was at least pretty cool. Funny since looking back on it now it really doesn't hold up.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
Different.
Very true, but it also brings us back around to the topics on the first page regarding the "Will of the Force." Is the Will of the Force truly a thing? If so it could be that Will more than anything Rey is doing that puts the lightsaber in her hand instead of Kylo's. And it was ignoring the Will of the Force way back when that truly led to the Jedi order's downfall...
Or the will of the force is all dogma and nonsense, and the Jedi just fell because they were arrogant (a mistake the Empire would later repeat) and Rey only took the lightsaber because she is super powerful , either because of her parentage, or because she's Force Jesus, or because we're spinning off to a new story about someone crazy powerful just because...
So is the Will of the Force real? Does it have a hand here? Or are we just dealing with powerful character that does crazy powerful things?
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
Different.
Very true, but it also brings us back around to the topics on the first page regarding the "Will of the Force." Is the Will of the Force truly a thing? If so it could be that Will more than anything Rey is doing that puts the lightsaber in her hand instead of Kylo's. And it was ignoring the Will of the Force way back when that truly led to the Jedi order's downfall...
Or the will of the force is all dogma and nonsense, and the Jedi just fell because they were arrogant (a mistake the Empire would later repeat) and Rey only took the lightsaber because she is super powerful , either because of her parentage, or because she's Force Jesus, or because we're spinning off to a new story about someone crazy powerful just because...
So is the Will of the Force real? Does it have a hand here? Or are we just dealing with powerful character that does crazy powerful things?
I think the Will of the Force is real as seen in R1 - Chirrut is kept alive long enough to do what he had to do at the control panel that allowed the plans to beam to the rebel fleets and ultimately cause the destruction of the death star - by Luke - which all also set Luke off on his destiny - so it is all linked back to Chirrut willing the force to keep him alive.
Although the force has its will, this is a good loop hole to exploit if Rey is not a Skywalker but the force allowed her to be more powerful than Kylo in those certain circumstances - a loop hole I actually had not considered before - very interesting!
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
Different.
I think for the mind probe a large part of it had to do with the fact that Kylo already created the connection. I doubt Rey would be able to just walk in and mind probe him, or anyone without him having done that first.
As for the Jedi mind trick on the trooper we've all seen time and time again that storm troopers (other than fin because of plot) are the lowest of the lows of mental prowess. Also it isn't too far off from say anikid [kid ani] being able to basically see glimpses into the future while pod racing, or Luke being able to block blaster bolts blindfolded after a couple of days of being with obi wan telling him to feel the force. All 3 situations are then doing difficult tasks through the force without any training, and before you say they are special, as of now we have no idea what Rey's background is. As the other guy said She could be force jesus for all we know.
But outdoing Kylo in a light saber tug of war was kitten. Even taking in Kylos mental and physical state there is no way she should have been able to do that.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
Different.
I think for the mind probe a large part of it had to do with the fact that Kylo already created the connection. I doubt Rey would be able to just walk in and mind probe him, or anyone without him having done that first.
As for the Jedi mind trick on the trooper we've all seen time and time again that storm troopers (other than fin because of plot) are the lowest of the lows of mental prowess. Also it isn't too far off from say anikid [kid ani] being able to basically see glimpses into the future while pod racing, or Luke being able to block blaster bolts blindfolded after a couple of days of being with obi wan telling him to feel the force. All 3 situations are then doing difficult tasks through the force without any training, and before you say they are special, as of now we have no idea what Rey's background is. As the other guy said She could be force jesus for all we know.
But outdoing Kylo in a light saber tug of war was ****. Even taking in Kylos mental and physical state there is no way she should have been able to do that.
Any other lightsaber that would probably be true, but that light saber called to her. There is something more going on here than just who is more powerful than who.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
Different.
I think for the mind probe a large part of it had to do with the fact that Kylo already created the connection. I doubt Rey would be able to just walk in and mind probe him, or anyone without him having done that first.
As for the Jedi mind trick on the trooper we've all seen time and time again that storm troopers (other than fin because of plot) are the lowest of the lows of mental prowess. Also it isn't too far off from say anikid [kid ani] being able to basically see glimpses into the future while pod racing, or Luke being able to block blaster bolts blindfolded after a couple of days of being with obi wan telling him to feel the force. All 3 situations are then doing difficult tasks through the force without any training, and before you say they are special, as of now we have no idea what Rey's background is. As the other guy said She could be force jesus for all we know.
But outdoing Kylo in a light saber tug of war was ****. Even taking in Kylos mental and physical state there is no way she should have been able to do that.
But - Anakin and Luke all had training. Fast reaction speed that Anakin had was a natural force talent - very different from using an active force power, such as a mind trick - without any training what so ever. That and the force tug of war with Kylo for that lightsaber is too much.
I wonder if any of us older fans who saw the original Star Wars when it came out enjoyed The Force Awakens. I personally did not. Can't put my finger on why really other than the following points. Hated that they killed Han Solo for starters. But I also didn't like how quickly Rey was able to use the force and definitely didn't like that Finn was able to one up Kylo in a light saber duel. Maybe I am missing something from not reading the books, comics...
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that **** arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
Different.
I think for the mind probe a large part of it had to do with the fact that Kylo already created the connection. I doubt Rey would be able to just walk in and mind probe him, or anyone without him having done that first.
As for the Jedi mind trick on the trooper we've all seen time and time again that storm troopers (other than fin because of plot) are the lowest of the lows of mental prowess. Also it isn't too far off from say anikid [kid ani] being able to basically see glimpses into the future while pod racing, or Luke being able to block blaster bolts blindfolded after a couple of days of being with obi wan telling him to feel the force. All 3 situations are then doing difficult tasks through the force without any training, and before you say they are special, as of now we have no idea what Rey's background is. As the other guy said She could be force jesus for all we know.
But outdoing Kylo in a light saber tug of war was ****. Even taking in Kylos mental and physical state there is no way she should have been able to do that.
Any other lightsaber that would probably be true, but that light saber called to her. There is something more going on here than just who is more powerful than who.
Like @fascizio said - it could just be the will of the force itself, which is a loophole that trumps mere bloodline/force power.
Replies
LOL ... watch me.
After reading the novelization of TFA, I can guarantee you that there is nothing to provide more enlightenment in the book. I mean, the novel provides exactly zero additional insight. Almost like there really is nothing more to the story that what we see on the screen. No depth. Shallow.
I'm an older fan. I liked TFA but I did think it came across more as fan service. That ticked me off at first but it doesn't surprise me now knowing that all new star wars is being made more by fans and less by people who aster willing to be creative like George Lucas was. Disney had to produce results that justified their purchase of Lucasfilm so I understand that.
I personally think that George Lucas would have done a much better job at least as far as the sequel story goes especially if he was working with Casdin. I know Disney is using his overall framework for the ST but I think George Lucas would have given us something more original. That said I'm still looking forward to ep8, 9 and beyond (although I could care less about a Han Solo movie)
RE: Finn - You may want to go back and rewatch the duel (it's on YouTube if you don't want to rewatch the whole movie). Not saying it will change your mind on the movie, but it's pretty apparent that Kylo was messing with him initially. It's that cocky arrogance he displays throughout and it finally bites him. He literally knocks him down at one point and just turns around and walks away while Finn gets back up. Eventually Finn gets in one hit and Kylo - even wounded twice now - immediately gets angry, disarms and painfully incapacitates him. Basically Kylo didn't take him seriously (for all the reasons you rightly didn't find it believable for Finn to hold his own) and Finn got in a lucky shot.
As far as Rey goes, how is she any different from Luke, who's training consisted of and old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings," before he bent two high speed torpedoes 90 degrees down a two meter tube? Or Anakin who used force precognition before he knew the force was thing? Or Revan, or Starkiller, or the Solo twins in the old EU? Star Wars is filled with characters who do amazing things before they're trained.
/shrug. It's not my favorite of the series, but I'm definitely one of those old guys that grew up with the originals and liked it.
Like you say i guess
Good call with Finn. I think the difference with Rey compared to Luke is that Ben has been observing Luke since he gave him to Owen and Beru (I don't know how the heck to spell her name). More than that Ben was expecting Luke to be force sensitive like his father, even to the point that he would kill Vader and the Emperor.
@fascizio I like what you had to say. I don't remember much of Force Awakens as I didn't particularly like it. But what you said about Kylo not taking Finn seriously makes sense. I didn't remember him acting that way. In regards to Luke, I believe he hit with the two torpedos because Obi Wan was with him in a sense. So I still believe that Rey using the force was a bit much. Maybe the newer movies will provide more background about why she is so force sensitive. I don't know. I'm not a big fan of CGI. I like the way the old movies were made with the models and I think Luke, Han and Leia pulled off jokes and one liners better than the new actors in Force Awakens.. Thanks for your perspective. Appreciated.
I'll chime in here too
I agree with Finn - but still think there is a small case to be made that he may be force sensitive, but I agree that Kylo (although wanted to kill Finn) was toying with him and drawing it out like a cat and mouse game.
In regard to Rey, Luke did have some training from Old Ben, stretching out with his feelings against the remote and focusing the force - he was also a natural pilot and was already an aerial marksman from shooting wamp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper. Also Obi wan was with him in spirit, that allowed him to better channel his focus.
With Anakin, he was also a natural pilot and mechanic due to his natural affinity to the force. He was also the product of the force itself - the chosen one with the potential of being the most powerful force user to have ever existed.
Now Both Anakin and Luke, are the products of the force and the force is abnormally strong in their bloodline - this remains to be seen if Rey is a Skywalker.
However, using natural abilities within the force, such as precognition, focus, piloting skills as well as mechanical skills are natural skills that the force helped exceed and accelerate beyond a normal person's traits. With Rey however, she not only did the same - which I am not concerned with, but she actively used force powers, such as telekinesis as well as mind control and also wielded a lightsaber - without training.
This shows that Rey naturally exceeded the two most powerful beings known in the galaxy at using the force. Also as Kylo himself is a skywalker - he too is a very powerful being - who Rey bested in the force (mind control, telekinesis and lightsaber combat) time and time again.
Therefore - Rey's abilities continue to be a subject of issue that cannot easily be explained away, unless we know her origins - is she a Skywalker?
Yeah, Ford especially brought a lot of life to the originals in his delivery. Boyega and Ridley just aren't there yet, maybe they'll get better with time and experience.
As far as the CGI that may be the root of where we diverge in our opinions. Like I said the originals were what I grew up with, but I was young enough, and into movies in general enough, that the CGI never bothered me. In fact I remember walking out of Episode II thinking well that was terrible, but the Geonosis battle scene was at least pretty cool. Funny since looking back on it now it really doesn't hold up.
Well, with Rey there's also the matter of Kylo's little interrogation session where he, inadvertently I think, establishes a two way connection with Rey wherein she sees his insecurities and fears. This does two things - 1: shows that he's not in actuality as far along as he wants people to believe, he's brute Forcing (hah, pun) a lot of this and 2: Creates the potential that it was him that, in a way, showed Rey how to move forward with the Force.
Also, a lightsaber is in the end just a melee weapon, which she is shown to be very proficient with. It's an advanced and dangerous melee weapon to be sure, but a melee weapon all the same.
Re: The bolded, Starkiller used Telekenesis to rip the lightsaber out of Vader's hand when he was like three, so I maintain there's still precedent for all this regardless of her parentage. (though admittedly not canon anymore)
But in the end the whole argument could be moot. As you point out she could be a Skywalker. Or as some on the internet contend she could be a Palpatine, or a Kenobi (who was notoriously gifted with mind tricks). Who knows. I guess we'll find out in December (maybe).
I love these kinds of discussions...
Mind probe - I mentioned about - how Rey turns it around to best Kylo.
As for telekinesis - Vader in the force unleashed was not expecting his lightsaber to be ripped from his hand - especially by a small boy. It was unexpected and he may have been even holding his saber loosely. (But you are right - it is no longer cannon).
However with Rey v. Kylo in regard to the lightsaber in the snow - he was pulling with all his might in the force to get that saber into his grasp - Rey ripped it away from him and into hers.
Different.
Very true, but it also brings us back around to the topics on the first page regarding the "Will of the Force." Is the Will of the Force truly a thing? If so it could be that Will more than anything Rey is doing that puts the lightsaber in her hand instead of Kylo's. And it was ignoring the Will of the Force way back when that truly led to the Jedi order's downfall...
Or the will of the force is all dogma and nonsense, and the Jedi just fell because they were arrogant (a mistake the Empire would later repeat) and Rey only took the lightsaber because she is super powerful , either because of her parentage, or because she's Force Jesus, or because we're spinning off to a new story about someone crazy powerful just because...
So is the Will of the Force real? Does it have a hand here? Or are we just dealing with powerful character that does crazy powerful things?
I think the Will of the Force is real as seen in R1 - Chirrut is kept alive long enough to do what he had to do at the control panel that allowed the plans to beam to the rebel fleets and ultimately cause the destruction of the death star - by Luke - which all also set Luke off on his destiny - so it is all linked back to Chirrut willing the force to keep him alive.
Although the force has its will, this is a good loop hole to exploit if Rey is not a Skywalker but the force allowed her to be more powerful than Kylo in those certain circumstances - a loop hole I actually had not considered before - very interesting!
Thanks for that idea @fascizio
I think for the mind probe a large part of it had to do with the fact that Kylo already created the connection. I doubt Rey would be able to just walk in and mind probe him, or anyone without him having done that first.
As for the Jedi mind trick on the trooper we've all seen time and time again that storm troopers (other than fin because of plot) are the lowest of the lows of mental prowess. Also it isn't too far off from say anikid [kid ani] being able to basically see glimpses into the future while pod racing, or Luke being able to block blaster bolts blindfolded after a couple of days of being with obi wan telling him to feel the force. All 3 situations are then doing difficult tasks through the force without any training, and before you say they are special, as of now we have no idea what Rey's background is. As the other guy said She could be force jesus for all we know.
But outdoing Kylo in a light saber tug of war was kitten. Even taking in Kylos mental and physical state there is no way she should have been able to do that.
Any other lightsaber that would probably be true, but that light saber called to her. There is something more going on here than just who is more powerful than who.
But - Anakin and Luke all had training. Fast reaction speed that Anakin had was a natural force talent - very different from using an active force power, such as a mind trick - without any training what so ever. That and the force tug of war with Kylo for that lightsaber is too much.
Like @fascizio said - it could just be the will of the force itself, which is a loophole that trumps mere bloodline/force power.
But ya, ultimately I think Rey is a Skywalker.