Poe has legitimately been over-nerfed
February 13, 2016 12:21PM
edited February 2016
(Please read the post before responding. I am not claiming he is useless or asking him to be returned to what he was like before.)
When the initial nerf to Poe (tenacity and expose) was announced, I was one of many who objected, because these were not the things that made him overpowered: what did that was the combination of his high speed, taunt and turn meter removal. What I and others feared would happen is that the changes would not address the problem, leading to future nerfs that would combine to go too far and over-nerf him.
Well, we didn't even need to wait: it happened immediately. We never got to observe the small changes because of major changes in game mechanics that happened at the same time. And so what we feared is exactly what has happened: rather than one quick and decisive change to bring him into line, a combination of small nerfs and changes to the game have nickel-and-dimed him to far less effectiveness than he had before.
Basically, the changes to the game in general were enough to deal with Poe:
@CG_JohnSalera - Please consider reversing some or all of these character-specific nerfs. Thank you.
When the initial nerf to Poe (tenacity and expose) was announced, I was one of many who objected, because these were not the things that made him overpowered: what did that was the combination of his high speed, taunt and turn meter removal. What I and others feared would happen is that the changes would not address the problem, leading to future nerfs that would combine to go too far and over-nerf him.
Well, we didn't even need to wait: it happened immediately. We never got to observe the small changes because of major changes in game mechanics that happened at the same time. And so what we feared is exactly what has happened: rather than one quick and decisive change to bring him into line, a combination of small nerfs and changes to the game have nickel-and-dimed him to far less effectiveness than he had before.
Basically, the changes to the game in general were enough to deal with Poe:
- With the changes to how speed works he was automatically nerfed; he goes after many characters that before he "tied" with due to the "turn system" that is now gone.
- Ability leaders now work and his faction doesn't have one, so he goes after even more characters.
- His turn meter removal can be resisted, where it couldn't before.
@CG_JohnSalera - Please consider reversing some or all of these character-specific nerfs. Thank you.
Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
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This is what I don't understand. If they were fixing the speed, a simple "Poe is overperforming now because of a glitch in speed" would be the perfect answer. They did that with Leia and FOTP, and nobody got angry. That (and the reddit post) is what makes me think they didn't even know speed was being fixed this patch, or that it was broken to begin with.
The change in speed makes Poe list of nerf irrelevant. They would had avoided all this drama without nerfing him at all, just fixing speed so it works as intended
@Qeltar you say," We didn't even get to see" but remember the devs just have to run a quick sql or such query to see what % of arena teams have Poe at what rank to see if they accomplished their goal. Not saying their goals and methods were smart, but they intended something, and you are right (overshot), but they accomplished it most likely with data.
I am on a Nov. 2015 server
The difference is not as big as the perception of it. People got angry for the nerf, which was not needed at all. The reason why he needed s nerf do not exists in current speed mechanic
I just want a fair game here. Agree that the devs are weak. After a few months, expect a yoda nerf or a qgj nerf. That seems to be the direction of this game.
Other changes were not Poe specific. The change in how speed works and possibility to resist turn meter reduction applies to all characters.
Poe is still the fastest tank in game and his taunt still brings expose and turn meter reduction but they are less effective. If anything, they should increase his tenacity again but the game is better with turn meter being able to be resisted. I'm undecided on whether the speed change is good or bad.
Poe use to be mandatory to achieve high arena ranks. Now he is balanced and we're seeing more diversity.
1) It's still too early too see how changes affected him. I see no difference on my server. People still use him.
2) The speed changes nerfed A LOT other characters. (Especially the slower ones in turn 8 and 9) Why everyone only cares about Poe? What happened to the sense of balance among all characters? Why none cares about Coruscant Police or Mob enforcer or ewok scout? Why none cares that other tanks like royal guard which are x10 times more useless than Poe?
3) Poe's high speed brought other issues to the game. Not all characters have the dps of Leia, GS and FOTP, but they have ability blocks, stuns, etc to compensate. How are they supposed to use them to block other characters if Poe pops a taunt for 2 turn as soon as game starts? And reduce enemy's turn meter too, and expose some also.
4) Some people whine because their droid team is now "useless" and their ig88 dies too fast. Well, sorry that your ig88 doesn't live long enough to **** my team with his poggle buff while i sit helpless and watch.
I would support a Poe buff ONLY if other tanks were better then him. Which then it would be the most common thing to do.
So guys please stop with the "MY Poe nerfed, MY team is now useless, MY MY MY" and think about the total game balance. We have so many other tank that are practically useless. They buffed Mace and he is still useless. Why all the nerf/buff forums have been around Poe?
+1
People do care about the other characters. But Poe was specifically nerfed in this update and those other characters were not. This thread is about Poe.
Irrelevant, as I never asked for a return to the old system. Just for the now-unnecessary nerfs to be reversed. I've been advocating for speed and DPS to become less important for months, but that is not what is being discussed here.
Also irrelevant, as this has nothing to do with this thread.
You appear to have responded angrily without even actually reading my post through. Poe is not even on my team right now. I put that first sentence at the top for a reason.
+2
I just want to chime in that I always appreciate and applaud @Preemo_Magin and his Poe rants. They are over the top, but he hits on all the right points. Poe was nerfed from every single angle. People were most upset about his speed and turn meter reduction...so how about we leave those changes and at least give him back his health, expose and tenacity. Or two of those three. Please? Poe still has a place on a roster with Qui-Gon leadership, but QGJ is the real must-have character now, and any success the droid teams are having post-patch is due to three factors: (1) not everyone has fully farmed up their speed teams yet, (2) not everyone has recognized the significance of the change yet, and (3) AI is dumb as mud and will sometimes have QGJ, Geo Soldier, Dooku and Rey go after Poggle and HK instead of the IGs, so on offense your arena team can still win.
I'm sad about the droids, but I'm most sad about the Resistance team. I never got to play with a leveled-up Resistance team, and removing Poe's expose and tenacity is going to hurt them a lot since expose is their feature skill and two or three of them are squishy.
I am not saying Poe will disappear from PvP. He wasn't nerfed nearly as hard and is still quite useful. But the tenacity and speed changes are unnecessary and are causing him to underperform: having him go after Rey is actually kind of a big deal.
To act like "he only lost 1 speed" is disingenuous. Of course the other changes weren't Poe-specific, but people were complaining about Poe when he used to be able to go 1st overall. They weren't complaining about 143 Poe in a system without tiers. They were complaining about 143 Poe in a system where he was tied with the fastest character in the game. The most-discussed problems with Poe were already "fixed" by the changes to the way leadership works, the way turn-meter reduction works and the way speed translates into turns. Those three "not Poe specific" changes took away what made Poe impossible to counter. So why also the health, the expose, the tenacity, the strength?
Second, as you and many know I am one of the biggest nerf the nerf stick advocaters because nerfs typically go overboard, so my comments may seem off my norm here.
Ok so in the begining with the turn system I originally suggested that Poe go to 142 speed to solve his issue. I agreed their plans on Expose and Tenacity were not enough, but adding more would be overkill, ala Barriss.
When the speed was 142 before the speed change was announced I was Livid. The new speed system though I like a lot. A toon like Leia though I think benefits most. Maxed out she can live through a couple AOE's and stealthed 2 turns means she can kill 2 of your team as you watch helpless. Her speed is so great that often she will live to stealth.
Now to Poe. I notice the TM reduction. I also notice a massive expose change. There are taunts none are exposed. I have not exposed more that 2 since the patch, AI when I face him is typically exposing 3-4(The AI Buff) I notice I can ability block him with Lumi(QGJ lead) Stun him with Dooku and Daka all about 25-33% now, when before it was like a blue moon when you could. I notice some resist the TM. So all Qeltar points out is happening.
I think it adds more strategy. I LOVE the speed system change. I mean I just love it. The leader abilities turn 1 I think is right, but I don't like we were not given warning of such a big change. I think the speed and leader system works as it should. Poe is not the game changer he was, however Poe is still quite useful. I am still using him with success, and not even max *, Max gear oh yes, but not *. Though I used Poe differently than others, kind of like I use Phasma different than others.
While I do agree with Qeltar I think all the little things added up did overdo it on Poe some. It did not do what happened to Barriss. They are vastly different though. Poe was never good for GW. He was a good shield when you were limping at the end of your 10th strait LVL max team so you could recharge some for the final fight, but that is it. Barriss though was arena viable and a GW star. Poe got a buildup of many things that decreased his power and impact, but is still viable, just not as impactful.
In conclusion I will give it some time to really form my conclusion on him. I do notice a pretty decent change in him, but not crippling. There is still your standard droid team that hangs in my top 10, and I'm on an early shard also.
Qeltar great post I agree with much of it and it is well thought out and written.
@DarthMasterShawn I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but to me this jut means Barris went from having great utility in both major game modes to great utility in one. Since Poe was never a real boon to a GW lineup except at full power and for one stage, his role as an arena shield was his single selling factor, and that was the target of the nerf. At least Barris still has her game mode where she can be queen.
I still see Barriss in PvP, not a lot, but at the same rate i see Daka and JC. Lumi is a bit more present on most teams but that's also because the fact that she easy farmable, the best healer and also has nice dps. Barris is also hard to farm. The only one i never see is Talia. Barriss is still the best healer to be paired with tanks. And very powerful in GW. All healers seem almost equally represented now.
But the same can't be said about tanks. Have you ever seen anyone with Royal Guard? With Chewbaka at top #500? With Stormtrooper? And let's not mention non taunt tanks. Poe is over-represented. And the -1 speed can hardly called a nerf. Only 1 char goes before him with the -1 speed change. And i believe the tenacity change was a bit helpful though. He still resists a lot of healing debuffs by Sid which causes him to get healed and turn the tides if your team doesn't have high dps heroes.
Like i said earlier, as long as he is still the only viable tank, the buffs are completely uncalled for.
PS. If you still think Poe underperforms, then feel free to mention which tanks overperform so people can switch to them instead.
I do believe that is exactly what I pointed out. Poe still has great Arena Utility, his utility in GW is unchanged. Barriss is no longer good in arena, but still in GW.
He is still fast enough to "sheild" though as I mentioned I used him differently than most. His "sheild" role was not critical to my team.