If someone can point me to all the threads complaining about Poe's health bar and his expose percentage (as opposed to the many, many threads complaining about his speed and his turn meter reduction), please do.
For me the question boils down simply. If we had known that they were going to make speed leaders count round 1 AND that they were going to get rid of the turn system AND that they were going to enable characters to resist turn meter reductions... would anyone have thought Poe needed further nerfs in addition to those changes?
I think most would answer "no".
So I would simply like to see him restored to where he was before his stats were changed. Those changes are not necessary, should have never been made given the changes mentioned above, and undercut him just enough that he's lost too much effectiveness given the buffs given to faster characters.
Surely we can all agree it would be better to under-balance, monitor, and then make additional changes, than to over-balance from the word go?
That's what they said they were going to do. But they got their wires crossed and instead of 2 small nerfs we ended up with effectively 6 or more. Some of them should be reversed.
First off let me say you were one of the biggest nerf stick on Poe wielders my friend, so seeing you post this I have much respect.
Second, as you and many know I am one of the biggest nerf the nerf stick advocaters because nerfs typically go overboard, so my comments may seem off my norm here.
Ok so in the begining with the turn system I originally suggested that Poe go to 142 speed to solve his issue. I agreed their plans on Expose and Tenacity were not enough, but adding more would be overkill, ala Barriss.
When the speed was 142 before the speed change was announced I was Livid. The new speed system though I like a lot. A toon like Leia though I think benefits most. Maxed out she can live through a couple AOE's and stealthed 2 turns means she can kill 2 of your team as you watch helpless. Her speed is so great that often she will live to stealth.
Now to Poe. I notice the TM reduction. I also notice a massive expose change. There are taunts none are exposed. I have not exposed more that 2 since the patch, AI when I face him is typically exposing 3-4(The AI Buff) I notice I can ability block him with Lumi(QGJ lead) Stun him with Dooku and Daka all about 25-33% now, when before it was like a blue moon when you could. I notice some resist the TM. So all Qeltar points out is happening.
I think it adds more strategy. I LOVE the speed system change. I mean I just love it. The leader abilities turn 1 I think is right, but I don't like we were not given warning of such a big change. I think the speed and leader system works as it should. Poe is not the game changer he was, however Poe is still quite useful. I am still using him with success, and not even max *, Max gear oh yes, but not *. Though I used Poe differently than others, kind of like I use Phasma different than others.
While I do agree with Qeltar I think all the little things added up did overdo it on Poe some. It did not do what happened to Barriss. They are vastly different though. Poe was never good for GW. He was a good shield when you were limping at the end of your 10th strait LVL max team so you could recharge some for the final fight, but that is it. Barriss though was arena viable and a GW star. Poe got a buildup of many things that decreased his power and impact, but is still viable, just not as impactful.
In conclusion I will give it some time to really form my conclusion on him. I do notice a pretty decent change in him, but not crippling. There is still your standard droid team that hangs in my top 10, and I'm on an early shard also.
Qeltar great post I agree with much of it and it is well thought out and written.
@DarthMasterShawn
His posts are always well written and thought out, but I think I'm gonna have to agree with you here. Im very skeptical that this will take him out of the top 20, however the change to other toons is what actually bothers me. Does this affect Han? This would be pretty bad if so as he just became more viable with Ackbar as lead (there is a such team in the top 10 on my server.
If not Han than others and I just don't see them needing a nerf, not even Obi Wan.
There are some turn meter control theory teams supposedly op but I've never seen them to really judge. Seems more tm control toons are coming out also so maybe the devs are planning ahead. Dunno
For me the question boils down simply. If we had known that they were going to make speed leaders count round 1 AND that they were going to get rid of the turn system AND that they were going to enable characters to resist turn meter reductions... would anyone have thought Poe needed further nerfs in addition to those changes?
I think most would answer "no".
So I would simply like to see him restored to where he was before his stats were changed. Those changes are not necessary, should have never been made given the changes mentioned above, and undercut him just enough that he's lost too much effectiveness given the buffs given to faster characters.
Surely we can all agree it would be better to under-balance, monitor, and then make additional changes, than to over-balance from the word go?
That's what they said they were going to do. But they got their wires crossed and instead of 2 small nerfs we ended up with effectively 6 or more. Some of them should be reversed.
Not everyone who faced Poe had him go before every character. Half of the time he failed the RNG roll and attacked after the fast attackers. The problems stay the same :
1) He is still the only viable tank (especially to protect slow attackers)
2) His taunt still does more than every other tank.
3) He still goes before characters with ability blocks and stuns (exept Dooku) which destroys them completely.
But seriously, i'm done arguing about Poe...
Developers do whatever you want. The fact is, i'm still going to get Poe after i finish with my jedis and neglect every other tank. If i wont get bored by then by facing the same characters over and over and quit. He may not be still best in defence but he is still OP when on offence.
When i started this game i was so excited about all the different combination that could be made. Empire teams, Nightsister teams, Sith teams, Jedi teams, Ewok team, Tusken, etc. But now i realised that nothing is worth other than the "usual suspects" (4-5 high dps overused characters) and the same 1 tank. This game has no diversity. I'm off the forums for good, cause it started to get pointless. I hope they'll buff your Poe since you want it so much and then everyone can start their Poe wars again. BB.
For me the question boils down simply. If we had known that they were going to make speed leaders count round 1 AND that they were going to get rid of the turn system AND that they were going to enable characters to resist turn meter reductions... would anyone have thought Poe needed further nerfs in addition to those changes?
I think most would answer "no".
Actually most of the proposed solutions involvrd things like TM being resisted OR moving him to tick8 do he wasn't the fastest char and could be countered before he acts. Both things went live at same time. That would had brought " balance to the force " without nerfing his tankyness (hp and Tenacity). It's ok that tanks are tanky. That's fine.
For me the question boils down simply. If we had known that they were going to make speed leaders count round 1 AND that they were going to get rid of the turn system AND that they were going to enable characters to resist turn meter reductions... would anyone have thought Poe needed further nerfs in addition to those changes?
I think most would answer "no".
So I would simply like to see him restored to where he was before his stats were changed. Those changes are not necessary, should have never been made given the changes mentioned above, and undercut him just enough that he's lost too much effectiveness given the buffs given to faster characters.
Surely we can all agree it would be better to under-balance, monitor, and then make additional changes, than to over-balance from the word go?
That's what they said they were going to do. But they got their wires crossed and instead of 2 small nerfs we ended up with effectively 6 or more. Some of them should be reversed.
PS. If you still think Poe underperforms, then feel free to mention which tanks overperform so people can switch to them instead.
Who says Tanks as a category must underperform? Actually, instead of adding a layer of strategy with proper Tank use ...they destroyed the only one working properly.
Most of the problem with the game are around the concept of Speed. Like playing Monopoly and being allowed to take 10 turns before the opponent turns one. Or playing 3 chess moves as white's first turn.
Poe was OP due to time meter reduction. Again, a speed related option. A tank has a taunt to self-sacrifice for the good of a team, usually a squishy team. Because if you find a character that is high in HP and high on Damage, he certainly ALWAYS will be a better choice than a char that is squishy (like Poe or Han) and low damage (like Poe or Han) - so on equal speeds, we have chars with higher HP and Damage than ANY Tank. Mive Poe to Asajj speed and he will disappear from squads next day entirely (in any decent Arena).
As the only character representing a full PRIMARY classes of characters (not for no reason there are 3 class-related challenges in the game, one being Tanks only), Poe displayed what a Tank can do. But since HE WAS THE ONLY TRULLY WORKING TANK, the primary way to deal with him is using a tank youself. Which one? The only one that worked. From there, to "which Poe's goes first" to "Auto-win" to "OP" is an OBVIOUS result for anyone not understanding the primary cause that was happening. Who's QGJ goes first ...in our current speed meta mayter more than you think. Being 4 vs 5 on game start is much, amazingly better than being 5 - 4 against. First to kill has a huge advantage for that team. If I coukd do statistical analysis I'd have an exact number but it easily can improve win rate I venture by about 30% on itself.
now, the Poe reaction against and for it is entertaining, because people have missed and lost something more important: the right to know, the right to expect promises to be kept, the right to be taken into account, the right to be informed properly and the right expect the value of their chars to be treated with fairness and respect.
The game is in it's infancy. Tou see 50 elements for gear. It may soon the 100 or more. When your chRs are 100 and a swing happens, you'll have no recourse.
I invite you to remember this day and time when somebody told you you have just lost much more than Poe, and you didn't speak up.
I applaud Qeltar for coming up and stating the excess.
l took Poe out of my Arena line up today and he won't be going back in. I replaced him with my previously benched Lumi. His only 2 uses now are sacrificing himself for one of the last GW battles and finishing the tank challenge. I'm extremely disappointed with how they handled Poe. I have been a strong fan of Poe from the beginning. At first it was difficult to see his value but I stuck with him and eventually he started to pay dividends. Then I admit, he did get too strong but that wasn't his fault, it was the way turns were decided in the first round.
The only fix necessary to rebalance Poe was to fix the speed function and maybe make turn meter reduction resistible. If anything his speed should be 144 to be somewhat viable in PVP. I think these changes, outside of the Poe discussion, are positive for the game and in the long run will make for a better experience. However, in doing so they made Poe unusable where he shined the most - in the arena. I know some of you think otherwise but wait until people catch up with 5 characters faster than Poe. Battles are fully decided before Poe gets a turn in arena. QGJ, Dooku, Sid, Rey, GS, most Jedi, most Rebels, to name a few, all go before Poe and at that point his taunt doesn't matter, the match is over.
I like this game it's a lot of fun but I can't wrap my head around some of the decisions that have been made and the way updates have been executed. There's seems to be a serious disconnect somewhere. The community is great at communicating here on the forums, everyone is very vocal about genuine concerns with the game. We like the game, we care about it, we want to make it better. And for the most part if there is enough concern, it gets addressed. I even started to see a pattern of a noticeable increase in effort about communication from EA with the latest updates. I was seriously excited after reading the long patch notes about upcoming improvements, but none of that increase in effort matters when the most important changes are left out. People make costly decisions that have long term impacts based on the precious posts we read from EA. So i'm left to ask myself "why was the speed change left out of the extensive updates?" And I could only come up with:
They decided to change the speed function after the notes were released
Or, they left them out deliberately so people would farm Poe for a little longer over other Cantina toons
I understand this is a business model and they need to make money and I'm fine with that, spend as much as you want to it's your decision. But creating distrust among your customers is not a good business practice. This has happened twice now, what's from stopping it to happen a 3rd time? I admit, I'm cautious to sink resources (training driods, credits, energy, gear, crystals and, most importantly, ability mats!) into my next character in fear of him/her getting overnerfed again. What's the point? And don't tell us you're going to do it gradually step by step to see how it works out then in the same week roll out 7 nerfs on the same character. Again, not accurate information and creates mistrust.
I read the posts from EA_Jesse and they sound genuine and they sound true. They sound like he believes them which leads me to believe someone higher up or maybe a team higher up is making a.) rash decisions b.) is disconnected from the voice of the community c.) does not really care about the impact of the decisions being made or maybe a combination of the three. The game is new but EA has been around forever. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how it pans out.
For a tank to have a place on a 5 man roster in arena they need to be able to taunt, to protect. Arena matches are often decided in the first round so if 4 or 5 characters from the other team are going before your tank killing 1 or 2 of your characters, why even have a tank to begin with?
My point is, with the speed change, he should have been sped up if anything not slowed down. Just wait, in a few weeks he'll be off all of the top teams.
For a tank to have a place on a 5 man roster in arena they need to be able to taunt, to protect. Arena matches are often decided in the first round so if 4 or 5 characters from the other team are going before your tank killing 1 or 2 of your characters, why even have a tank to begin with?
My point is, with the speed change, he should have been sped up if anything not slowed down. Just wait, in a few weeks he'll be off all of the top teams.
I was initially very upset at the Poe nerfs, however my Poe Poggle Droid team is still placing top ten, and first tonight. My team is respectable. It is my kind of team that his value at the top and the effects can be measured by. If I can take 1st, Poe isn't broken.
PS. If you still think Poe underperforms, then feel free to mention which tanks overperform so people can switch to them instead.
Who says Tanks as a category must underperform? Actually, instead of adding a layer of strategy with proper Tank use ...they destroyed the only one working properly.
To be honest, he was perfirming better as a Support (with the time control) than as a tank.
I was initially very upset at the Poe nerfs, however my Poe Poggle Droid team is still placing top ten, and first tonight. My team is respectable. It is my kind of team that his value at the top and the effects can be measured by. If I can take 1st, Poe isn't broken.
I was initially very upset at the Poe nerfs, however my Poe Poggle Droid team is still placing top ten, and first tonight. My team is respectable. It is my kind of team that his value at the top and the effects can be measured by. If I can take 1st, Poe isn't broken.
Just means u r on a weak server.
Not just that. Taking leads mean very little. I see Chewy led teams on my server (70s upto at least top 200)in the top 50. Super easy to take down, I hit auto play sometimes. I also see 2 healer squads, another easy meat. Attacking with any high level geared up team is much easier as the AI is pretty bad in defense. The good toons/ squads are the ones that deter attacks and are harder to take down.
@Mephisto_style, good to know Poe's working for you. Doesn't mean it's working on other servers. Droids as a squad are getting wrecked on quite a few servers, have none in the top 50 in mine. My wife's doing good with droids (without Poe) on her's though. Take what you will from that.
I was initially very upset at the Poe nerfs, however my Poe Poggle Droid team is still placing top ten, and first tonight. My team is respectable. It is my kind of team that his value at the top and the effects can be measured by. If I can take 1st, Poe isn't broken.
I was initially very upset at the Poe nerfs, however my Poe Poggle Droid team is still placing top ten, and first tonight. My team is respectable. It is my kind of team that his value at the top and the effects can be measured by. If I can take 1st, Poe isn't broken.
I want to be more specific. The game is decided by DAMAGE/ROUND. A character that has 1% HP does the same damage than one with 100%. The taunts delay death. A 1% char can live so long as no AoE behind a tank that is alive.
Droids
If any squad is high risk, high reward, it's a droids team. Their xomposition is so fixed and one dimensional as it can get. The entire Droid strategy depends on one simple requirement: IG-88 MUST AOE ONCE. I deally, it must AoE an enemy that has as most negative status as possible.
Once ACTIVATED properly (ie. iG-88 and 86 are alive, buffed and HK lead), A droid team can only lose to a Fives plus Kylo type of heavy-counter teams.
The problem is IG-88 has 100% chance of being dead with a QGJ led team of fast Jedis and aupporters like Sid and Dooku.
Imagine this generic scenario: IG-88, 86, Poogle, HK, Poe_the_weak. Ok? Now, enemy has 4 chars that go before ANYONE on this team. is IG-88 100%, desd 50% of times or 0%? It is 100% dead every single time.
IG-88 is the squishiest character in the game with 9k. To hits of 4500 and he is gone. 17 chars goes before him.
Now, IG-88 is dead and enemy is at 100% HP. 88 was dead after second char attack. Enemy still used 2 other chars, and now another char could be stuned, dead or abikity blocked.
Impact of IG-88 early death is aboout a combined 7k for 2-3 chars, and 3k for 2-3 chars. Lets say about 25k HP. Since he disn't AoE the other chars on Expo still nees to be hit individually, and HK can do it, but it does so little damage than the 5 chars are still alive. Poogle has buffed ao it sid nothing. Poe has taunted so it did nothing (except passive Expose and TM walk). As 88 was dead it disn't mive the TM 33%. In case IG-86 is still alive (50% of cases vs this enemy?), he kills ine char...and makes HK TM make him play next. That wins nothing, he was likely next anyway. Now the enemy has 4 chars alive (assuming 86 one shots a char which is not likely as ANY ASSIST is with a low damage char), now enemy has 4 chars going next, and ine that goes after IG-86. Poe is dead and so is 86.
Tou lose 90% of times in attack. Now in defense it's even worst.
--- rewind one week
Poe has a chance to cover IG-88 very esrly on. He is turn 7. Only 2 chars are turn 6 and stun maybfail. So 100% for 88 is a toss. But if Poe goes second, enemy maybe couldn't kill 88 and still has 10% HP. poe taunts, Poggle buffs and 88 fires AoE and is guaranteed to advance Droids TM 30%, which means the 3 droids become 30% faster which makes then IG-86 goes next. If he crits, TM. HK 47 will crit too....TM again...but wait, Poogle also buffed their speed. Droids take another turn so amazingly soon that even Phasma is confused.
---
The problem with Poe was it allowed that. And today, I does very little. In weak servers people have limited rooster. So if they don't have well leveled chars that go before Poe, ir use slower chars, you still win/can win. But in the new Poe version, you are guaranteed to lose.
So if you are still winning, it's because tour server is still adjusting to the obvious OP meta: high soeed teams all Rey-like or faster.
I don't know if there is any way tonsave the Deoids from being so dead now. They only chance they have is winning maybe 20% if they use a high dodge leadership like Dooku which stuns QGJ and IG-88 dodges one or two attacks. Very Very High Risk, and the TM advantage lost by replacing HK is also ensuring some chars disn't die yet (lower dmg) and also ensuring the enemy goes against first second round. But...if you are lucky you can win sometimes (both offense and defense). Against very fast teams you may skip Poe too...and try Poogle lead with GS as a char to make 1 Droid act sooner. Poe helps only Droid vs Droid (RNG) or vs slower teams.
I hope it makes sense. This that I said does not depend on what server you are, but what you can face and will face. If you aren't facing you are still in a mid-game server.
My playing experience speaks contrary to what you say. My server is older to begin. The teams I face are often very good.
I rarely use 88's aoe to open. If poggle is present i target him first. Then poe or han before thet taunt. Many top players have 1 counter guy and 88's aoe would trigger it. It is best not to use his aoe until poe has taunt because my 88 usually only gets 1 shot from Rey, but a counter and someone else.... 88 is gone. With that said I often still win without 88 early on because of poggle buffed HK 86 crit synergy, and I understand how to manipulate the AI.
For instance if the team has a lumi, and her turn is upcoming and 88 put an immune heal on someone i don't kill them so lumi wastes a turn on a heal. I usually folly that move with 88's aoe by the way.
There is a great deal of turn strategy in this. I earn my wins, because much of the complaints about Poe and droids can be thrown right back in the face of all these crazy assist proccing phasma rey sid qgj dooku teams
Personally i dont see the issue with how poe now performs. I my experience hes still great and still
Problematic. I think they did 100% the rite thing giving us a a fighting chance to resist his turn meter manipulation AND reducing his expose chance so everyone is not guaranteed exposed everytime. I also agree with his speed reduction becaus ehe is still incredibly fast which offeres great utility in many teams. Its not as bad as ppl are making it out to be.
Is it really bad for a particular build you may hve made with him being the center of attention? Possibly, but as a character in the game compared to others he is still head an shoulders above most an still is one of the top toons available in the game.
Sorry but this is just not true at the top level in arena. Every character you put on your team needs to bring a lot to the table to justify filling a spot on your roster. The faster they are, the more buffs, the more damage, the more debuffs all for the better. An arena fight is a race to the finish where you try to burn your opponent down faster than he burns you down.
Who would you rather have QGJ or Poe? Dooku or Poe? GS or Poe? Yoda or Poe? Rey or Poe? I could go on, but you get my point. He has no place anymore on a top team because there are MANY better options now. And that goes for all tanks, there is no place for them on the best teams you can craft. They are simply all too slow to taunt, get out out in front of some HEAVY damage in round 1, and do their 1 job - soak up hits. Poe's survivability was great before the nerf. He had high resists and a decent self heal that eventually added up allowing him to take more damage. He was doing his 1 job before.
Those of you saying he is still good are either on a new shard, have not faced top team comps or your shard has not caught up to the shift in meta. Give it some time but Poe will be phased out. If you're running Poe, your team is simply not going to be as good as it possibly can be.
I actuallyagree. Poe's defensive stats did not need to be touched. Only the games speed mechanic and the ability to resist a harmful effect. It was over kill to remove his "toughness."
My playing experience speaks contrary to what you say. My server is older to begin. The teams I face are often very good.
I rarely use 88's aoe to open. If poggle is present i target him first. Then poe or han before thet taunt. Many top players have 1 counter guy and 88's aoe would trigger it. It is best not to use his aoe until poe has taunt because my 88 usually only gets 1 shot from Rey, but a counter and someone else.... 88 is gone. With that said I often still win without 88 early on because of poggle buffed HK 86 crit synergy, and I understand how to manipulate the AI.
For instance if the team has a lumi, and her turn is upcoming and 88 put an immune heal on someone i don't kill them so lumi wastes a turn on a heal. I usually folly that move with 88's aoe by the way.
There is a great deal of turn strategy in this. I earn my wins, because much of the complaints about Poe and droids can be thrown right back in the face of all these crazy assist proccing phasma rey sid qgj dooku teams
I agree but I am not talking about the partially slower teams you attack, but thise that are speedy. Imagine a team with maxed Rey, QGJ and GS. They all before and each can one shot IG-88. The only way to win is if the AI is horrible.
If you can risk delaying IG-88, which will lower the enemy by 30k + exposes (anither 10k) expecting him to live for a second chance, you are not facing what you WILL.
In GW if course I will be careful with AoE...I don't want to win, I want to come iut almost harmless and the strategy is different...and it works because it's not every enemy 7* max elite 12 in a row but contains gaps and I bring the droids when and depending on the enemy. It is also 100% attack there and in Arena the idea is to hold on a bit otherwise there are more people attacking you than chances for you to attack.
Actually in the post (sorry for typos as always) I specifically mention with partially slower teams it still has chances. Ie. It works if the enemy has 't adjusted to meta.
Replies
I think most would answer "no".
So I would simply like to see him restored to where he was before his stats were changed. Those changes are not necessary, should have never been made given the changes mentioned above, and undercut him just enough that he's lost too much effectiveness given the buffs given to faster characters.
That's what they said they were going to do. But they got their wires crossed and instead of 2 small nerfs we ended up with effectively 6 or more. Some of them should be reversed.
@DarthMasterShawn
His posts are always well written and thought out, but I think I'm gonna have to agree with you here. Im very skeptical that this will take him out of the top 20, however the change to other toons is what actually bothers me. Does this affect Han? This would be pretty bad if so as he just became more viable with Ackbar as lead (there is a such team in the top 10 on my server.
If not Han than others and I just don't see them needing a nerf, not even Obi Wan.
There are some turn meter control theory teams supposedly op but I've never seen them to really judge. Seems more tm control toons are coming out also so maybe the devs are planning ahead. Dunno
The speed changes effected every character. Most characters were hurt a lot more by it than Poe.
Rey took a little nerf but no one cares about poor Rey.
Not everyone who faced Poe had him go before every character. Half of the time he failed the RNG roll and attacked after the fast attackers. The problems stay the same :
1) He is still the only viable tank (especially to protect slow attackers)
2) His taunt still does more than every other tank.
3) He still goes before characters with ability blocks and stuns (exept Dooku) which destroys them completely.
But seriously, i'm done arguing about Poe...
Developers do whatever you want. The fact is, i'm still going to get Poe after i finish with my jedis and neglect every other tank. If i wont get bored by then by facing the same characters over and over and quit. He may not be still best in defence but he is still OP when on offence.
When i started this game i was so excited about all the different combination that could be made. Empire teams, Nightsister teams, Sith teams, Jedi teams, Ewok team, Tusken, etc. But now i realised that nothing is worth other than the "usual suspects" (4-5 high dps overused characters) and the same 1 tank. This game has no diversity. I'm off the forums for good, cause it started to get pointless. I hope they'll buff your Poe since you want it so much and then everyone can start their Poe wars again. BB.
However if they do decide to de-nurf him, only his tenacity and expose should be reverted.
I'm personally fine with him as is (and I still use him BTW).
Actually most of the proposed solutions involvrd things like TM being resisted OR moving him to tick8 do he wasn't the fastest char and could be countered before he acts. Both things went live at same time. That would had brought " balance to the force " without nerfing his tankyness (hp and Tenacity). It's ok that tanks are tanky. That's fine.
I would answer no for sure. Agreed.
Who says Tanks as a category must underperform? Actually, instead of adding a layer of strategy with proper Tank use ...they destroyed the only one working properly.
Most of the problem with the game are around the concept of Speed. Like playing Monopoly and being allowed to take 10 turns before the opponent turns one. Or playing 3 chess moves as white's first turn.
Poe was OP due to time meter reduction. Again, a speed related option. A tank has a taunt to self-sacrifice for the good of a team, usually a squishy team. Because if you find a character that is high in HP and high on Damage, he certainly ALWAYS will be a better choice than a char that is squishy (like Poe or Han) and low damage (like Poe or Han) - so on equal speeds, we have chars with higher HP and Damage than ANY Tank. Mive Poe to Asajj speed and he will disappear from squads next day entirely (in any decent Arena).
As the only character representing a full PRIMARY classes of characters (not for no reason there are 3 class-related challenges in the game, one being Tanks only), Poe displayed what a Tank can do. But since HE WAS THE ONLY TRULLY WORKING TANK, the primary way to deal with him is using a tank youself. Which one? The only one that worked. From there, to "which Poe's goes first" to "Auto-win" to "OP" is an OBVIOUS result for anyone not understanding the primary cause that was happening. Who's QGJ goes first ...in our current speed meta mayter more than you think. Being 4 vs 5 on game start is much, amazingly better than being 5 - 4 against. First to kill has a huge advantage for that team. If I coukd do statistical analysis I'd have an exact number but it easily can improve win rate I venture by about 30% on itself.
now, the Poe reaction against and for it is entertaining, because people have missed and lost something more important: the right to know, the right to expect promises to be kept, the right to be taken into account, the right to be informed properly and the right expect the value of their chars to be treated with fairness and respect.
The game is in it's infancy. Tou see 50 elements for gear. It may soon the 100 or more. When your chRs are 100 and a swing happens, you'll have no recourse.
I invite you to remember this day and time when somebody told you you have just lost much more than Poe, and you didn't speak up.
I applaud Qeltar for coming up and stating the excess.
The only fix necessary to rebalance Poe was to fix the speed function and maybe make turn meter reduction resistible. If anything his speed should be 144 to be somewhat viable in PVP. I think these changes, outside of the Poe discussion, are positive for the game and in the long run will make for a better experience. However, in doing so they made Poe unusable where he shined the most - in the arena. I know some of you think otherwise but wait until people catch up with 5 characters faster than Poe. Battles are fully decided before Poe gets a turn in arena. QGJ, Dooku, Sid, Rey, GS, most Jedi, most Rebels, to name a few, all go before Poe and at that point his taunt doesn't matter, the match is over.
I like this game it's a lot of fun but I can't wrap my head around some of the decisions that have been made and the way updates have been executed. There's seems to be a serious disconnect somewhere. The community is great at communicating here on the forums, everyone is very vocal about genuine concerns with the game. We like the game, we care about it, we want to make it better. And for the most part if there is enough concern, it gets addressed. I even started to see a pattern of a noticeable increase in effort about communication from EA with the latest updates. I was seriously excited after reading the long patch notes about upcoming improvements, but none of that increase in effort matters when the most important changes are left out. People make costly decisions that have long term impacts based on the precious posts we read from EA. So i'm left to ask myself "why was the speed change left out of the extensive updates?" And I could only come up with:
I understand this is a business model and they need to make money and I'm fine with that, spend as much as you want to it's your decision. But creating distrust among your customers is not a good business practice. This has happened twice now, what's from stopping it to happen a 3rd time? I admit, I'm cautious to sink resources (training driods, credits, energy, gear, crystals and, most importantly, ability mats!) into my next character in fear of him/her getting overnerfed again. What's the point? And don't tell us you're going to do it gradually step by step to see how it works out then in the same week roll out 7 nerfs on the same character. Again, not accurate information and creates mistrust.
I read the posts from EA_Jesse and they sound genuine and they sound true. They sound like he believes them which leads me to believe someone higher up or maybe a team higher up is making a.) rash decisions b.) is disconnected from the voice of the community c.) does not really care about the impact of the decisions being made or maybe a combination of the three. The game is new but EA has been around forever. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how it pans out.
Why does his speed need to be 144 to be viable in arena?
My point is, with the speed change, he should have been sped up if anything not slowed down. Just wait, in a few weeks he'll be off all of the top teams.
Though I do agree with Qeltar's proposed solution as being the cleanest and have suggested the same before.
Why 144 though? Is it because of Rey?
Not just that. Taking leads mean very little. I see Chewy led teams on my server (70s upto at least top 200)in the top 50. Super easy to take down, I hit auto play sometimes. I also see 2 healer squads, another easy meat. Attacking with any high level geared up team is much easier as the AI is pretty bad in defense. The good toons/ squads are the ones that deter attacks and are harder to take down.
@Mephisto_style, good to know Poe's working for you. Doesn't mean it's working on other servers. Droids as a squad are getting wrecked on quite a few servers, have none in the top 50 in mine. My wife's doing good with droids (without Poe) on her's though. Take what you will from that.
+ 6 1/2
I want to be more specific. The game is decided by DAMAGE/ROUND. A character that has 1% HP does the same damage than one with 100%. The taunts delay death. A 1% char can live so long as no AoE behind a tank that is alive.
Droids
If any squad is high risk, high reward, it's a droids team. Their xomposition is so fixed and one dimensional as it can get. The entire Droid strategy depends on one simple requirement: IG-88 MUST AOE ONCE. I deally, it must AoE an enemy that has as most negative status as possible.
Once ACTIVATED properly (ie. iG-88 and 86 are alive, buffed and HK lead), A droid team can only lose to a Fives plus Kylo type of heavy-counter teams.
The problem is IG-88 has 100% chance of being dead with a QGJ led team of fast Jedis and aupporters like Sid and Dooku.
Imagine this generic scenario: IG-88, 86, Poogle, HK, Poe_the_weak. Ok? Now, enemy has 4 chars that go before ANYONE on this team. is IG-88 100%, desd 50% of times or 0%? It is 100% dead every single time.
IG-88 is the squishiest character in the game with 9k. To hits of 4500 and he is gone. 17 chars goes before him.
Now, IG-88 is dead and enemy is at 100% HP. 88 was dead after second char attack. Enemy still used 2 other chars, and now another char could be stuned, dead or abikity blocked.
Impact of IG-88 early death is aboout a combined 7k for 2-3 chars, and 3k for 2-3 chars. Lets say about 25k HP. Since he disn't AoE the other chars on Expo still nees to be hit individually, and HK can do it, but it does so little damage than the 5 chars are still alive. Poogle has buffed ao it sid nothing. Poe has taunted so it did nothing (except passive Expose and TM walk). As 88 was dead it disn't mive the TM 33%. In case IG-86 is still alive (50% of cases vs this enemy?), he kills ine char...and makes HK TM make him play next. That wins nothing, he was likely next anyway. Now the enemy has 4 chars alive (assuming 86 one shots a char which is not likely as ANY ASSIST is with a low damage char), now enemy has 4 chars going next, and ine that goes after IG-86. Poe is dead and so is 86.
Tou lose 90% of times in attack. Now in defense it's even worst.
--- rewind one week
Poe has a chance to cover IG-88 very esrly on. He is turn 7. Only 2 chars are turn 6 and stun maybfail. So 100% for 88 is a toss. But if Poe goes second, enemy maybe couldn't kill 88 and still has 10% HP. poe taunts, Poggle buffs and 88 fires AoE and is guaranteed to advance Droids TM 30%, which means the 3 droids become 30% faster which makes then IG-86 goes next. If he crits, TM. HK 47 will crit too....TM again...but wait, Poogle also buffed their speed. Droids take another turn so amazingly soon that even Phasma is confused.
---
The problem with Poe was it allowed that. And today, I does very little. In weak servers people have limited rooster. So if they don't have well leveled chars that go before Poe, ir use slower chars, you still win/can win. But in the new Poe version, you are guaranteed to lose.
So if you are still winning, it's because tour server is still adjusting to the obvious OP meta: high soeed teams all Rey-like or faster.
I don't know if there is any way tonsave the Deoids from being so dead now. They only chance they have is winning maybe 20% if they use a high dodge leadership like Dooku which stuns QGJ and IG-88 dodges one or two attacks. Very Very High Risk, and the TM advantage lost by replacing HK is also ensuring some chars disn't die yet (lower dmg) and also ensuring the enemy goes against first second round. But...if you are lucky you can win sometimes (both offense and defense). Against very fast teams you may skip Poe too...and try Poogle lead with GS as a char to make 1 Droid act sooner. Poe helps only Droid vs Droid (RNG) or vs slower teams.
I hope it makes sense. This that I said does not depend on what server you are, but what you can face and will face. If you aren't facing you are still in a mid-game server.
I rarely use 88's aoe to open. If poggle is present i target him first. Then poe or han before thet taunt. Many top players have 1 counter guy and 88's aoe would trigger it. It is best not to use his aoe until poe has taunt because my 88 usually only gets 1 shot from Rey, but a counter and someone else.... 88 is gone. With that said I often still win without 88 early on because of poggle buffed HK 86 crit synergy, and I understand how to manipulate the AI.
For instance if the team has a lumi, and her turn is upcoming and 88 put an immune heal on someone i don't kill them so lumi wastes a turn on a heal. I usually folly that move with 88's aoe by the way.
There is a great deal of turn strategy in this. I earn my wins, because much of the complaints about Poe and droids can be thrown right back in the face of all these crazy assist proccing phasma rey sid qgj dooku teams
Problematic. I think they did 100% the rite thing giving us a a fighting chance to resist his turn meter manipulation AND reducing his expose chance so everyone is not guaranteed exposed everytime. I also agree with his speed reduction becaus ehe is still incredibly fast which offeres great utility in many teams. Its not as bad as ppl are making it out to be.
Is it really bad for a particular build you may hve made with him being the center of attention? Possibly, but as a character in the game compared to others he is still head an shoulders above most an still is one of the top toons available in the game.
Who would you rather have QGJ or Poe? Dooku or Poe? GS or Poe? Yoda or Poe? Rey or Poe? I could go on, but you get my point. He has no place anymore on a top team because there are MANY better options now. And that goes for all tanks, there is no place for them on the best teams you can craft. They are simply all too slow to taunt, get out out in front of some HEAVY damage in round 1, and do their 1 job - soak up hits. Poe's survivability was great before the nerf. He had high resists and a decent self heal that eventually added up allowing him to take more damage. He was doing his 1 job before.
Those of you saying he is still good are either on a new shard, have not faced top team comps or your shard has not caught up to the shift in meta. Give it some time but Poe will be phased out. If you're running Poe, your team is simply not going to be as good as it possibly can be.
I agree but I am not talking about the partially slower teams you attack, but thise that are speedy. Imagine a team with maxed Rey, QGJ and GS. They all before and each can one shot IG-88. The only way to win is if the AI is horrible.
If you can risk delaying IG-88, which will lower the enemy by 30k + exposes (anither 10k) expecting him to live for a second chance, you are not facing what you WILL.
In GW if course I will be careful with AoE...I don't want to win, I want to come iut almost harmless and the strategy is different...and it works because it's not every enemy 7* max elite 12 in a row but contains gaps and I bring the droids when and depending on the enemy. It is also 100% attack there and in Arena the idea is to hold on a bit otherwise there are more people attacking you than chances for you to attack.
Actually in the post (sorry for typos as always) I specifically mention with partially slower teams it still has chances. Ie. It works if the enemy has 't adjusted to meta.