Get this 100% Turnmeter coinflip mechanic out of this game!

Replies

  • NicWester
    6532 posts Member
    Fanatic wrote: »
    Some people want a purely strategic, no random game: Chess, checkers
    CAYLUS!
    Sorry. I know this isn't the point and has nothing to do with anything, I just never pass up an opportunity to stan for Caylus when I get the chance.
    But nobody cares about raid Han, the problem isn't raid Han, you're using an off topic example with which nobody has a problem with to prove that his logic is wrong
    Except that it's not off topic and has everything to do with what people are talking about here. It's two characters that reach 100% tm at the exact same time, and neither one reaches 101%, or whatever, through bonus TM gain.

    I'm sorry if Raid Han pokes a big hole in your plan, but that just goes to show that all plans are flawed and what they've chosen to do is the best of a bunch of bad options.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • swgohfan29
    1140 posts Member
    Vi1teran_ wrote: »


    Thrawn and raid Han should supersed full tm.

    why? thrawn's mechanics involve giving 100%TM to a ally. Your sentence boils down to: full TM should supersede full TM.
  • YaeVizsla
    2535 posts Member
    Thrawn explicitly does not give turn meter, in the same way that HP equalization effects do not heal. It is a turn swap, and bypasses effects that would normally prevent turn meter gain. The implication, and partial function, is that Thrawn gives another ally his turn. Except the way 100% turn meter interactions work, an ability that is supposed to let you deliberately control the flow of battle is instead a roulette.
  • swgohfan29
    1140 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Thrawn explicitly does not give turn meter, in the same way that HP equalization effects do not heal. It is a turn swap, and bypasses effects that would normally prevent turn meter gain. The implication, and partial function, is that Thrawn gives another ally his turn. Except the way 100% turn meter interactions work, an ability that is supposed to let you deliberately control the flow of battle is instead a roulette.

    i disagree. Swap TM means taking thrawn's TM and giving it to the ally, and taking the ally's TM and giving it to thrawn. If a mechanic exsisted that allowed you to use abilities in the middle of turns, thrawn would give less than 100%TM.

    Swap TM=\=Swap Turn.

    (of course, that means raid han should take his turn first. The game just doesnt have the necessary coding to differentiate Turn and TM, making life very, very complicated.)
  • Waqui
    5351 posts Member

    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think any solution needs to have a caveat for situations like this. Any toon that generates 100% TM on their turn should go before anyone else that is in a situation to move (whatever that may be). That's the whole point of having moved that do that, whether one death blow, or hitting enough debuffs or any other reason.
    If we go with generating 100% turn meter on your turn means you go first, then I can solo P1 STR with Nihilus almost never getting a move.

    Good point.
  • CallidusThorn
    13 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    Maybe there needs to be some kind of priority system for tm gain. So something like Thrawn's tm swap would be right at the top, then single target tm gain below 100% from specials, then aoe tm gain, then uniques, then lead abilities. So multiple characters at 100% tm wold then take their turns in that order

    But they really need to do something. It's impossible to try and predict what's going to happen when you've got three or four characters at 100% tm, and no idea which one's about to go. And sometimes the entire battle turns on those early coinflips, which really takes the fun out of things
  • Caiaphas
    109 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    I don't find myself agreeing with @leef or @NicWester often (particularly as regards Ships 2.0), but I think I do this time.

    I don't mind some RNG in games. A lot of games have rolls in addition to strategy. But I HATE with a passion the Palp meta and the RNG involved.

    In previous metas, one could use mod strategy to gain an upper hand, to deal with mirror teams and counter teams. But the current meta is 100% RNG, and countered by 100% RNG.

    The problem is that CG created the situation to begin with. But it is what it is, now. With the status quo, you can try to strategise around RNG ... you can make a team to prepare for the fact that RNG won't always go in your favour. (this doesn't apply much to the current meta, but in other meta scenarios it could be done)

    But if you had any other scenario presented so far, a meta could exist that simply could not be beaten. It could end up like (hypothetical example): Your toon goes first, and creates +20% TM on your team through some mechanic. The other team gets +10% TM through some mechanic. The way it is now is that, if all toons were at 100% TM, RNG decides the outcome. In the competing scenarios, every member of your team would always go first. That is, you will always win, as long as the toon that creates the 20% TM for your team is faster than your opponent's.

    And that ... is RNG as well. Who was lucky enough, through RNG, to farm those super god speed mods?

    I tell you what .. I HATE, with a PASSION, the current meta and the RNG involved. But at least I have a chance. If I was facing teams that I could never beat under any circumstances, that would mean the end of my playing the game. That would be far too frustrating.

    edit: what we really need is for this meta to end, for good. To put this RNG nonsense behind us. (and to make Ships less RNG as well ... because maxxed ships and pilots vs. maxxed ships and pilots is ... 100% RNG! And mods don't even help!)
  • TVF
    13458 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    How?
    Accepting the "if you gain 100% turn meter on your turn, go immediately" version?

    Trawn lead. Magmatrooper. Deathtrooper.

    Kill someone. Deathmark Nihilus. Keep using Magmatrooper's basic.

    Every time Magmatrooper attacks is a double tap, triggering Nihilus' Defense Down effect, which means Magmatrooper either resists or suffers a debuff twice. This triggers Magmatrooper's unique once and Thrawn's lead twice, for +110% turn meter. Therefore Magmatrooper goes immediately, hits Nihilus with his basic again, and loops infinitely until Nihilus dies, never able to get a turn again because Magmatrooper keeps generating 100% TM. Also, Deathmark never expires because Nihilus never goes, so you keep getting that Deathmark damage.

    Shouldn't this be happening anyway? Fact is Nih still gains TM despite repeated 110% TM for Magma.
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  • Nihilus goes when he wants and randomly as much as he wants...
  • TVF
    13458 posts Member
    Nihilus goes when he wants and randomly as much as he wants...

    Untrue.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • scuba
    12138 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    How?
    Accepting the "if you gain 100% turn meter on your turn, go immediately" version?

    Trawn lead. Magmatrooper. Deathtrooper.

    Kill someone. Deathmark Nihilus. Keep using Magmatrooper's basic.

    Every time Magmatrooper attacks is a double tap, triggering Nihilus' Defense Down effect, which means Magmatrooper either resists or suffers a debuff twice. This triggers Magmatrooper's unique once and Thrawn's lead twice, for +110% turn meter. Therefore Magmatrooper goes immediately, hits Nihilus with his basic again, and loops infinitely until Nihilus dies, never able to get a turn again because Magmatrooper keeps generating 100% TM. Also, Deathmark never expires because Nihilus never goes, so you keep getting that Deathmark damage.

    Shouldn't this be happening anyway? Fact is Nih still gains TM despite repeated 110% TM for Magma.

    Because raid bosses gain 5% tm everytime they are damaged. So in this scenario DN would gain 10% TM for every magma basic attack.
  • Sacull_Kinslayer
    797 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    TVF wrote: »
    Nihilus goes when he wants and randomly as much as he wants...

    Untrue.

    So he doesn't randomly take a 3rd turn or attack when he has low tm even though your squad has higher tm? Fairly sure I've seen (and read!) multiple instances (and reports!) of this.

    Randomness is fun! Not frustrating at all!
  • NicWester
    6532 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    How?
    Accepting the "if you gain 100% turn meter on your turn, go immediately" version?

    Trawn lead. Magmatrooper. Deathtrooper.

    Kill someone. Deathmark Nihilus. Keep using Magmatrooper's basic.

    Every time Magmatrooper attacks is a double tap, triggering Nihilus' Defense Down effect, which means Magmatrooper either resists or suffers a debuff twice. This triggers Magmatrooper's unique once and Thrawn's lead twice, for +110% turn meter. Therefore Magmatrooper goes immediately, hits Nihilus with his basic again, and loops infinitely until Nihilus dies, never able to get a turn again because Magmatrooper keeps generating 100% TM. Also, Deathmark never expires because Nihilus never goes, so you keep getting that Deathmark damage.

    Shouldn't this be happening anyway? Fact is Nih still gains TM despite repeated 110% TM for Magma.

    Because raid bosses gain 5% tm everytime they are damaged. So in this scenario DN would gain 10% TM for every magma basic attack.

    Until Magmatrooper misses.

    I point this out only because every time I do this raid, I seem to miss on the third or fourth attack and then stand around with a whole lot of egg on my face :p
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • NicWester
    6532 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Nihilus goes when he wants and randomly as much as he wants...

    Untrue.

    So he doesn't randomly take a 3rd turn or attack when he has low tm even though your squad has higher tm? Fairly sure I've seen (and read!) multiple instances (and reports!) of this.

    Randomness is fun! Not frustrating at all!

    He gains 50 speed every time he's attacked. If his TM is low and yours is high, but his speed is now a bajillion, yeah, he's going to take his turn before you. That's not randomness, that's ignorance of the mechanics of how the fight works. Quit asking them to change the game to conform to your lack of information.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • TVF
    13458 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    Also if you're running Heroic he has a 50% chance of making a third attack during his turn (IIRC, we aren't doing heroic).

    I see complaints all the time that he's random, and those people are ignoring how his cooldowns work. If you're running Res, you can tell if he's going to AOE or Annihilate. If those abilities are sitting on 1 and he attacks someone with foresight first, the first attack won't reduce the cooldown but the second will.

    Read the abilities before you complain.
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  • scuba
    12138 posts Member
    NicWester wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    How?
    Accepting the "if you gain 100% turn meter on your turn, go immediately" version?

    Trawn lead. Magmatrooper. Deathtrooper.

    Kill someone. Deathmark Nihilus. Keep using Magmatrooper's basic.

    Every time Magmatrooper attacks is a double tap, triggering Nihilus' Defense Down effect, which means Magmatrooper either resists or suffers a debuff twice. This triggers Magmatrooper's unique once and Thrawn's lead twice, for +110% turn meter. Therefore Magmatrooper goes immediately, hits Nihilus with his basic again, and loops infinitely until Nihilus dies, never able to get a turn again because Magmatrooper keeps generating 100% TM. Also, Deathmark never expires because Nihilus never goes, so you keep getting that Deathmark damage.

    Shouldn't this be happening anyway? Fact is Nih still gains TM despite repeated 110% TM for Magma.

    Because raid bosses gain 5% tm everytime they are damaged. So in this scenario DN would gain 10% TM for every magma basic attack.

    Until Magmatrooper misses.

    I point this out only because every time I do this raid, I seem to miss on the third or fourth attack and then stand around with a whole lot of egg on my face :p

    Yes but that is another RNG that annoys the kitten out of me. ;)
  • DarthGugel
    175 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    @DarthMandalorian so your basically saying you want your raid Han to always be last
  • NicWester wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Nihilus goes when he wants and randomly as much as he wants...

    Untrue.

    So he doesn't randomly take a 3rd turn or attack when he has low tm even though your squad has higher tm? Fairly sure I've seen (and read!) multiple instances (and reports!) of this.

    Randomness is fun! Not frustrating at all!

    He gains 50 speed every time he's attacked. If his TM is low and yours is high, but his speed is now a bajillion, yeah, he's going to take his turn before you. That's not randomness, that's ignorance of the mechanics of how the fight works. Quit asking them to change the game to conform to your lack of information.


    I'm not. It's just a silly mechanic. I know the mechanics. He has a coin flip chance for a 3rd attack. Which makes it very complicated to time for annihilate. Random is so much fun!! And yes he gets extra speed. Know that mechanic too. Thanks! Appreciate it!
  • Agree strongly with @Kyno and everyone else who mentioned Thrawn's TM swap becoming a different mechanic than the current TM queue. Both Thrawn and CLS (Call to Action) should be changed to use the new mechanic - from "gains 100% turn meter" to "IS WITHOUT A DOUBT, 100% GUARANTEED, THE NEXT TOON TO TAKE A TURN".

    I still shake my head every time I TM swap to Palps only to never have him go again, or not even be the next person on my team to go. I've actually had occurrences where Thrawn was the next person on my team to go AFTER a TM swap, and that's without any stuns happening.

    I kind of appreciate how they JJ Abrams'ed themselves on this (any Lost fans know what I mean). Speed mods came out, oops - let's add TM mechanics to negate some of the speed mod advantage - TM shenanigans ensue, oops, let's, um, figure out how we get ourselves out of, um, this. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Dralkyr
    449 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    How?
    Accepting the "if you gain 100% turn meter on your turn, go immediately" version?

    Trawn lead. Magmatrooper. Deathtrooper.

    Kill someone. Deathmark Nihilus. Keep using Magmatrooper's basic.

    Every time Magmatrooper attacks is a double tap, triggering Nihilus' Defense Down effect, which means Magmatrooper either resists or suffers a debuff twice. This triggers Magmatrooper's unique once and Thrawn's lead twice, for +110% turn meter. Therefore Magmatrooper goes immediately, hits Nihilus with his basic again, and loops infinitely until Nihilus dies, never able to get a turn again because Magmatrooper keeps generating 100% TM. Also, Deathmark never expires because Nihilus never goes, so you keep getting that Deathmark damage.

    I don't see the problem here :D
  • I would be happy simply to have moves that give another character full turn meter take priority. For example First Order Officer's marching orders. Gives another toon 100% TM and cleanses both of them. That cleanse can mean the whole opposing sith team goes before your guy in the worst set of circumstances.
  • who rolled the most broken mods(coinflip) who got the most broken fotm teamsetup maxed, probs bought it with crystals or something else. there is alot that dont really say fair gameplay in this game. intentionally created overpowered heroes to fuel their economy more, paying for advantages +++ coinflip is not giving everyone an equal chance to be tested on skill, but instead it is more like whoever have collected the most power. there is some tactics in the game but for most part its just facing oponents that alot of the time even if u do it right will just destroy u in a few turns. and these arena shards ppl can snowball really hard there sometimes with the added crystals. or ppl that already have good knowledge of the game creating a new hero. heck, often anything just comes down to genetics aswell, u coinflipped and got inferior genetics for example lol. i think ppl can only get so far no matter how hard they try or how dedicated they are they will be limited to genetics. height, weight, intelligence, dexterity, speed, accuracy.... a long list. just realised life is a **** coinflip haha.
  • All these desperate attempts to defend this RNG based mechanic! I can't understand why people like to do this, make excuses or say that "It could be worse therefore I'm going to settle for less". It's not how you optimise anything in life!

    We should constantly push to improve the game we love and to simply put it this way, the coinflip is ridiculous! It's one thing to have 2 characters reach 100% TM, it's another then you can potentially have up to 10!!!

    Palpatine VS Palpatine had the potential of having all 10 characters reach 100% TM. The chaos that follows is almost like watching comedy. This isn't like the Han vs Han debate, forget about that, this is a whole new level of unpredictability and RNG which is unhealthy and to defend that it's beyond me.
  • Be careful what you ask for. The next character will have the following unique:

    “At the start of each turn, if any ally has 100% TM, remove 25% TM from all enemies with 100% TM, which cannot be resisted”.

    This character will be a Talzin style release, so they can charge people for RNG TM control.
  • NicWester
    6532 posts Member
    Or you could use a different team.

    What's with everyone's insistance on always fighting mirror matches?
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • NicWester wrote: »
    Or you could use a different team.

    What's with everyone's insistance on always fighting mirror matches?

    So you're 4/5 attempts and you have one more to get to the highest payout, you swap your Palpatine with Rex to fight another Palpatine and then you run our of attempts, you go away, fall asleep, come back hours later and you realize that you've dropped 50 ranks. That's why people don't like swapping teams...
  • locodiel
    92 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    leef wrote: »
    i think RNG deciding wich toon with a 100% TM goes first is preferable over the alternatives.
    The alternatives i've seen thusfar are:
    • Who ever had the most TM prior to multiple toons reaching 100% during the next turn goes first
    • Who ever has most TM (above 100%) goes first
    • Fastest toon goes first
    Each one of those alternatives has downsides. I believe the first one is the most popular, but is it desirable? Lets take vader under palp vs Rex lead/biggs/sion+nilly for example, if any of those reach 100% TM during vader's AoE, or culling blade eliminating a toon, they would 100% of the time go before vader gets his 2nd turn.

    There is another option: remover or increase turn meter cap. Increase would not solve the problem but delay it from occurring (until later in the fight). Removal would almost completely eliminate RNG from turn order. Downside from both approaches is that the differences in base speed and TM gain from abilities would play out to the extreme: slow toons would take 1-2 turn while fast toons take 3-5 (not taking into account any TM removel, stun and slowing abilities of any kind).

    @CG_SBCrumb You asked for ideas I remember.
  • Be careful what you ask for. The next character will have the following unique:

    “At the start of each turn, if any ally has 100% TM, remove 25% TM from all enemies with 100% TM, which cannot be resisted”.

    This character will be a Talzin style release, so they can charge people for RNG TM control.

    But isnt that just what we essentially already have?

    Its random if you get your turn first when at 100% at same time as enemy. If you do and its your turn, you do something that removes TM from enemy. Ta da, same outcome as your proposed ability.

    It would still rely on you randomly getting your 100% TM turn in before the enemies at 100% TM to have any effect.
  • ZatyraJinn wrote: »
    It's so blatantly obvious that the first toon that hits 100% should go first

    Yes. The one that crosses the finish line first wins. And if toons are reaching it at the same exact time then the fastest should go first because obviously they are faster. The EXACT same time...

    Why is this so complicated to understand?
  • Be careful what you ask for. The next character will have the following
    ZatyraJinn wrote: »
    It's so blatantly obvious that the first toon that hits 100% should go first

    Yes. The one that crosses the finish line first wins. And if toons are reaching it at the same exact time then the fastest should go first because obviously they are faster. The EXACT same time...

    Why is this so complicated to understand?

    Its really easy to understand.

    Its also really dumb (at least the second part). The first part is okay.

    You re just shifting the RNG from the arena to the mod store/character mod upgrade screen. Theres no point in "fixing"RNG if you re just gonna put in somewhere else. That said, i m conpletely fine if the first part was implemented
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