Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
Don't make some gear only available to players in a Top Level guild.
Characters, fair enough. But my making Player A have access to gear that Player B doesn't, Player A's characters will be more powerful than Player B's. Player A's Stormtrooper will have gear that Player B cannot get.
So suddenly Player A is going to win their fights even if all they do is zero-tag the Heroic Sith Raid while Player B runs his guild and solos the Heroic Tank for everyone, etc.
Traya is not available to all players, hence some players will have a character in their sith team which others won't have. Suddenly some players will have a much harder time against those teams with Traya. You find that completely fair, but not if the increased difficulty is due to a gear advantage instead? I find that a bit...flawed.
Don't worry too much about it. In half a year or maybe one year, the current smaller guilds will be able to farm heroic STR as well. It took less than a year from the AAT raid was introduced until almost any guild would be able to beat it regarding they farmed the suitable characters for the 'super teams'. The same thing will happen with heroic STR.
I don't see how you find it flawed. There are always easy to farm counters to OP rare characters.
So, you accept that to fight sith teams with Traya you need to switch to a counter team instead of using your own non—Traya sith team. How is that any different than having to switch to counter teams, because the opponent out—gears you?
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Don't make some gear only available to players in a Top Level guild.
Characters, fair enough. But my making Player A have access to gear that Player B doesn't, Player A's characters will be more powerful than Player B's. Player A's Stormtrooper will have gear that Player B cannot get.
So suddenly Player A is going to win their fights even if all they do is zero-tag the Heroic Sith Raid while Player B runs his guild and solos the Heroic Tank for everyone, etc.
Traya is not available to all players, hence some players will have a character in their sith team which others won't have. Suddenly some players will have a much harder time against those teams with Traya. You find that completely fair, but not if the increased difficulty is due to a gear advantage instead? I find that a bit...flawed.
Don't worry too much about it. In half a year or maybe one year, the current smaller guilds will be able to farm heroic STR as well. It took less than a year from the AAT raid was introduced until almost any guild would be able to beat it regarding they farmed the suitable characters for the 'super teams'. The same thing will happen with heroic STR.
I don't see how you find it flawed. There are always easy to farm counters to OP rare characters.
So, you accept that to fight sith teams with Traya you need to switch to a counter team instead of using your own non—Traya sith team. How is that any different than having to switch to counter teams, because the opponent out—gears you?
Not being able to reach the same gear level is basically the equivalent of having one less mod to equip on every one of your characters. That kind of deficit usually renders counter teams that are easily farmable ineffectual, leaving only country teams comprised of other rare characters.
It unjustly punishes people for not completing hstr.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
And we call the op's first post.... Entitlement. Do You play the game expecting everything to be readily available to you? Just because you can't get it now when you want it doesn't mean it's out of reach. You feel that you want it here and now and have the roster? Go find a guild with an opening doing heroic sith..
I call what you're preaching entitlement. Heroic guilds just got given an advantage they've never had before, and you respond as though people should expect it to be that way.
It's a new level of progression that Everyone should be entitled to who puts effort into the raid, not only entitled to those who can whip the raid.
Not being able to reach the same gear level is basically the equivalent of having one less mod to equip on every one of your characters. That kind of deficit usually renders counter teams that are easily farmable ineffectual, leaving only country teams comprised of other rare characters.
It unjustly punishes people for not completing hstr.
This thread seems to be spiraling out of control. My own take on this is the exclusive gear IS a monumental change in the game. I have been playing since September 2016 and I dont recall any raid that had “exclusive” gear that was locked behind the toughest raid. For me the question is how much of an effect is the exclusive gear going to have. I dont have an answer for that. If arena rank was extremely important to me (which I will admit I have neglected forever in that I am content in the 200-500 range) then exclusive G12 gear would be a HUGE deal to me. Irregardless of my opinion on the impact of that gear what I find even more disturbing is the power shift in this raid. Traya and full G12 piece drops were already enough to widen the gap. Now with more exclusive rewards that NO ONE can get unless they belong to a Heroic Sith guild just seems to push the middle guys out of the picture.
Fundamentally for those of us slogging T4-T5 Sith raids I find myself in the position of just hating the raid. The challenge part of it is not what I hate. The rewards I get for that challenge do not seem to match the time and effort spent. That’s what I hate. And instead of addressing that (Crumb stating that they will “evaluate” T1-T6 rewards what a joke!) the Devs just flat out ignore it and give the Heroic Sith guilds more of a carrot to dangle.
I remember the days of people jumping ship for HAAT guilds. I am seeing a LOT more of it now with the Devs making exclusive gear for only Heroic Sith. I am not so ignorant to say it isnt fair. People have different goals for what they want out of the game. I get that there should be a reward for beating the hardest raid out there. At what point does that reward become too much an advantage? I think for me that’s the million dollar question.
The only answer I can come up with is either:
Do something to where your guild can get to that level
or
Dont do anything to improve
I am the guild leader of a 92M GP guild. We arent ready for HSITH yet. That doesnt upset me. We are working with members in building teams that will help us get to that goal. It will take time and patience. What really upsets...well let me rephrase that...what really makes me scratch my head is why the Devs just seem to be unwilling to want to improve rewards for those of us who simply are not HSITH ready. If the Devs REALLY wanted to throw us lower Tier raiders a bone imagine a zeta reward payout for say completing a T4-T6 raid and NOT making a zeta payout for HSITH. Not fair to HSITH you say??? Now you can imagine feeling a bit of our pain.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
This thread seems to be spiraling out of control. My own take on this is the exclusive gear IS a monumental change in the game. I have been playing since September 2016 and I dont recall any raid that had “exclusive” gear that was locked behind the toughest raid. For me the question is how much of an effect is the exclusive gear going to have. I dont have an answer for that. If arena rank was extremely important to me (which I will admit I have neglected forever in that I am content in the 200-500 range) then exclusive G12 gear would be a HUGE deal to me. Irregardless of my opinion on the impact of that gear what I find even more disturbing is the power shift in this raid. Traya and full G12 piece drops were already enough to widen the gap. Now with more exclusive rewards that NO ONE can get unless they belong to a Heroic Sith guild just seems to push the middle guys out of the picture.
Fundamentally for those of us slogging T4-T5 Sith raids I find myself in the position of just hating the raid. The challenge part of it is not what I hate. The rewards I get for that challenge do not seem to match the time and effort spent. That’s what I hate. And instead of addressing that (Crumb stating that they will “evaluate” T1-T6 rewards what a joke!) the Devs just flat out ignore it and give the Heroic Sith guilds more of a carrot to dangle.
I remember the days of people jumping ship for HAAT guilds. I am seeing a LOT more of it now with the Devs making exclusive gear for only Heroic Sith. I am not so ignorant to say it isnt fair. People have different goals for what they want out of the game. I get that there should be a reward for beating the hardest raid out there. At what point does that reward become too much an advantage? I think for me that’s the million dollar question.
The only answer I can come up with is either:
Do something to where your guild can get to that level
or
Dont do anything to improve
I am the guild leader of a 92M GP guild. We arent ready for HSITH yet. That doesnt upset me. We are working with members in building teams that will help us get to that goal. It will take time and patience. What really upsets...well let me rephrase that...what really makes me scratch my head is why the Devs just seem to be unwilling to want to improve rewards for those of us who simply are not HSITH ready. If the Devs REALLY wanted to throw us lower Tier raiders a bone imagine a zeta reward payout for say completing a T4-T6 raid and NOT making a zeta payout for HSITH. Not fair to HSITH you say??? Now you can imagine feeling a bit of our pain.
I think there's one more option. Complain to the devs loudly enough with enough people to get them to change it. It has worked in the past. It can work for this.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
By staying in a non hstr guild, you opt out of the exclusive guild in favor of being with the one you like. That's the trade or " marlarkey " as you would call it for being competative. The person in the OP is opting out of the rewards to be in his preferred guild but still feels entitled to the rewards of a tier his guild can't beat. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
By staying in a non hstr guild, you opt out of the exclusive guild in favor of being with the one you like. That's the trade or " marlarkey " as you would call it for being competative. The person in the OP is opting out of the rewards to be in his preferred guild but still feels entitled to the rewards of a tier his guild can't beat. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.
The devs have stated that they want guilds to progress and "graduate" to hSTR. That's supposed to be the goal, not abandoning your current guild. And the terrible non-hSTR rewards do not encourage the stated goal whatsoever. Of course people are complaining. hSTR guilds get cake and get to eat it, non-hSTR guilds get a piece of cake in the face.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
By staying in a non hstr guild, you opt out of the exclusive guild in favor of being with the one you like. That's the trade or " marlarkey " as you would call it for being competative. The person in the OP is opting out of the rewards to be in his preferred guild but still feels entitled to the rewards of a tier his guild can't beat. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.
The devs have stated that they want guilds to progress and "graduate" to hSTR. That's supposed to be the goal, not abandoning your current guild. And the terrible non-hSTR rewards do not encourage the stated goal whatsoever. Of course people are complaining. hSTR guilds get cake and get to eat it, non-hSTR guilds get a piece of cake in the face.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
Never in the past has gear been tied to a heroic. It has always been available to all guilds because they could get by using refreshes with no timer. End game content meant characters. You could acquire the gear, just at a slower rate than those who had progressed further. Now it is unattainable to any except those at a certain level of progression. That is the problem. That is the complaint.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
The game isn't the one that made the choices, but the game is the one that created the precedent that set the expectations that not being able to compete in heroics only means not being able to get 1 character.
They changed the dynamic that they themselves created and perpetuated to the point where it created an expectation for it and people are justifiably outraged at this change.
It is now forcing people to choose between their guild and their potential in individual combat arenas. People can say this happened with the HAAT, but it didn't. Yes people left guilds in search of GK, but not in search of gear. Gear was the 1 part of a character's progression that anybody could get. Now it isn't.
If people aren't in a position to get the gear, it is absolutely due to their own choices, but the fact that they can't get the gear is due to choices by the game. They never made choices like that before, and it was a bad choice this time.
Arena, for the most part, doesn't care what your guild GP is, or how long you've been playing since the shard is based off when you started. You can farm and build a team that can compete. It took strategy and playing the meta/counter meta game.
By tying gear (rather than a character that you can work around) to the raid, now Arena DOES care. You can't theorycraft around speed. You either have it, or you don't.
I want Heroic tiers to have more rewards than other tiers, they should. Characters are perfect Raid rewards, because you can work around dealing with a single character. To work around a team with +60 speed is a different animal entirely. Especially with the random nature of obtaining high speed mods
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
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Replies
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
Why not just explain how your comment about tier 4 STR is relevant to this thread and to the comment, which you replied to, @TVF?
So, you accept that to fight sith teams with Traya you need to switch to a counter team instead of using your own non—Traya sith team. How is that any different than having to switch to counter teams, because the opponent out—gears you?
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Not being able to reach the same gear level is basically the equivalent of having one less mod to equip on every one of your characters. That kind of deficit usually renders counter teams that are easily farmable ineffectual, leaving only country teams comprised of other rare characters.
It unjustly punishes people for not completing hstr.
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I call what you're preaching entitlement. Heroic guilds just got given an advantage they've never had before, and you respond as though people should expect it to be that way.
It's a new level of progression that Everyone should be entitled to who puts effort into the raid, not only entitled to those who can whip the raid.
Fundamentally for those of us slogging T4-T5 Sith raids I find myself in the position of just hating the raid. The challenge part of it is not what I hate. The rewards I get for that challenge do not seem to match the time and effort spent. That’s what I hate. And instead of addressing that (Crumb stating that they will “evaluate” T1-T6 rewards what a joke!) the Devs just flat out ignore it and give the Heroic Sith guilds more of a carrot to dangle.
I remember the days of people jumping ship for HAAT guilds. I am seeing a LOT more of it now with the Devs making exclusive gear for only Heroic Sith. I am not so ignorant to say it isnt fair. People have different goals for what they want out of the game. I get that there should be a reward for beating the hardest raid out there. At what point does that reward become too much an advantage? I think for me that’s the million dollar question.
The only answer I can come up with is either:
Do something to where your guild can get to that level
or
Dont do anything to improve
I am the guild leader of a 92M GP guild. We arent ready for HSITH yet. That doesnt upset me. We are working with members in building teams that will help us get to that goal. It will take time and patience. What really upsets...well let me rephrase that...what really makes me scratch my head is why the Devs just seem to be unwilling to want to improve rewards for those of us who simply are not HSITH ready. If the Devs REALLY wanted to throw us lower Tier raiders a bone imagine a zeta reward payout for say completing a T4-T6 raid and NOT making a zeta payout for HSITH. Not fair to HSITH you say??? Now you can imagine feeling a bit of our pain.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
I think there's one more option. Complain to the devs loudly enough with enough people to get them to change it. It has worked in the past. It can work for this.
By staying in a non hstr guild, you opt out of the exclusive guild in favor of being with the one you like. That's the trade or " marlarkey " as you would call it for being competative. The person in the OP is opting out of the rewards to be in his preferred guild but still feels entitled to the rewards of a tier his guild can't beat. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.
The devs have stated that they want guilds to progress and "graduate" to hSTR. That's supposed to be the goal, not abandoning your current guild. And the terrible non-hSTR rewards do not encourage the stated goal whatsoever. Of course people are complaining. hSTR guilds get cake and get to eat it, non-hSTR guilds get a piece of cake in the face.
Cake? More like shaving cream pie imo. . .
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
Never in the past has gear been tied to a heroic. It has always been available to all guilds because they could get by using refreshes with no timer. End game content meant characters. You could acquire the gear, just at a slower rate than those who had progressed further. Now it is unattainable to any except those at a certain level of progression. That is the problem. That is the complaint.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
The game isn't the one that made the choices, but the game is the one that created the precedent that set the expectations that not being able to compete in heroics only means not being able to get 1 character.
They changed the dynamic that they themselves created and perpetuated to the point where it created an expectation for it and people are justifiably outraged at this change.
It is now forcing people to choose between their guild and their potential in individual combat arenas. People can say this happened with the HAAT, but it didn't. Yes people left guilds in search of GK, but not in search of gear. Gear was the 1 part of a character's progression that anybody could get. Now it isn't.
If people aren't in a position to get the gear, it is absolutely due to their own choices, but the fact that they can't get the gear is due to choices by the game. They never made choices like that before, and it was a bad choice this time.
By tying gear (rather than a character that you can work around) to the raid, now Arena DOES care. You can't theorycraft around speed. You either have it, or you don't.
I want Heroic tiers to have more rewards than other tiers, they should. Characters are perfect Raid rewards, because you can work around dealing with a single character. To work around a team with +60 speed is a different animal entirely. Especially with the random nature of obtaining high speed mods
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
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