Because the prequels are trash films that care more about fan service than consistency and quality storytelling.
Fan service?
Do enlighten me DatBoi by what you mean by that statement.
People wanted to see Yoda flipping around and doing a bunch of shallow nonsense even though it directly contradicts his character in Empire. It’s part of the running theme in the prequels where the “quality” of a character is determined by how “strong” they are (Maul, Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Sidious, etc).
It didn't contradict anything. He simply called upon the force to guide his movements and give him energy and agility in a fight - old man Dooku did the same thing and so does Palpatine in his office.
Yoda may have still been able to do this in Empire, but he had no one to fight And he was at the end of his life anyway. Just because a being may live for 900 years or whatever, does not mean they can rapidly deteriorate within the last 30 years of their life either.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".
For me, Yoda Proper has always been a symbol of mind over matter. His teachings were about peace, creativity, and logic. Not screaming and flipping around and getting all pi$$ed off.
That’s why I love Luke’s final scene in TLJ. In that moment he is finally a true Jedi and completely embodies Yoda and Obi Wan’s teachings. He bests Kylo without using anger, offense, or even a lightsaber. He shows Kylo that true power is none of those things and that it will never be achievable by those who pursue the Dark Side.
The Original and Sequel trilogies were/are constantly expanding what the Force is, and is capable of. For Jedi, it’s never a weapon or a blunt object to be manipulated for commiting violence, it’s a mental state of peace where the Jedi elevates themself above the conflict and uses their wits to solve problems. The power of a Jedi shouldn’t be determined by how effectively they can hack people apart with a lazer sword, but rather by the strength of their character. This is fundamentally misunderstood by Lucas in the Prequels and it makes me question his creative involvement in the OT when all this was established.
But now we have:
Force-skyping
Mary poppins astronauts
Force users who are completely unaware of there surroundings (Luke wasn't beaten by rey... he slipped on pebbles hahahahaha... that's now canon)
Thank god RJ put a stop to all that "adding to the force" nonsense.
The leia thing was poorly set up and unnecessary, but I love everything else having to do with the Force in TLJ. I thought it had the best approach to it in any sw film since Empire.
People always forget how limitless the Force was in the OT
Force-skyping
Mary poppins astronauts
Force users who are completely unaware of there surroundings (Luke wasn't beaten by rey... he slipped on pebbles hahahahaha... that's now canon)
Thank god RJ put a stop to all that "adding to the force" nonsense.
1) The Force binds all things, in all places. Size and distance have no meaning. The Force as a means of communication is not unreasonable.
2a) Kanan did it first.\
2b) If the Force can move objects, there is no logical reason Force users shouldn't be able to move themselves.
2c) The deadliness of space in Star Wars is wildly inconsistent. In A New Hope, they walk out into a vacuum in the exogorth in plain clothes with a rebreather, and there's pressure and normal gravity.
Any plot holes covered through the Clone Wars animated series is just poor story telling and writing of the PT movies in my opinion - any plot holes should have been covered within those movies and should not have needed a cartoon to clean up any loose ends.[/quote]
Amen. I’m tired of people giving credit to the Prequels for things the Clone Wars did.[/quote]
But isn't that what the ST and Resistance are doing? The SW franchise is so massive, and to sell more than just movies, they purposefully give back stories in other media. By that logic, you'd really have to agree that the ST is garbage too.
Wow - there are many reasons Solo flopped and why TLJ was a terrible movie. Only critics and Disney shills seem to like it - I am sure there are some strange opinions of why individuals seem to have liked it, I like parts, not all is bad, but overall terrible.
Defining those who disagree with you as automatically irrelevant is also not discussing the topic in good faith. Folks can just have different opinions than you.
I am not a movie critic. I am not a Disney shill. I am a person, a moviegoer, and I am lifelong Star Wars fan who loved The Last Jedi, and liked Solo.
Degenerating into name calling to write me out of your worldview is terribly rude.
Then you didn't read my post. I said in addition to critics and Disney shills there are people (you) with strange opinions as to why they liked TLJ - You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine, including my opinion that your thinking TLJ was in any way good is strange. Again, I called your point of view/opinion strange, not you personally as a whole.
Secondly I blatantly explained that these forums do not like the long list of reasons why TLJ was considered by many as a bad movie, or why the star wars franchise is running ground - so I simply cannot repeat them here due to forum rules.
But you seem to not even acknowledge anything of my list which is common knowledge as to why TLJ is a bad movie or why Solo failed - your arguments are generic and flawed arguments at that. Not your fault but you need to take a big look at all the issues surrounding star wars, take your personal opinions out of it and see why star wars is not doing so great right now.
Those reasons span political agendas, trash talking the fan base and character destruction - there was no preserving and respect of the OT characters as was promised by Kennedy when she took Lucas film over from George.
I am not going to argue those points in detail.
Other reasons include cancellation of the EU as no longer cannon - scrapped like mud from a boot. Now I want to be clear - I did not like a lot of the EU stories, but with the lack of movies and other content under the lucas regime many many fans turned to the EU to fill their star wars hunger - therefore many many of those fans loved the EU. It was a hard blow to a lot of fans when it was scrapped.
Then we had the cancellation of The Clone Wars - again, this was not taken well.
TFA was a remake of ANH - but any promising continuation was destroyed in TLJ by Johnson.
It really does go on and on and on as to why people are upset - at the end of the day, a lot of the fanbase has had enough and have boycotted Solo - which is now recognized as the first Star Wars movie to flop!!!
I am not saying Solo was a bad movie - it was a statement being made by the disgruntled fans to Disney and Lucasfilm because, they feel they are above the laws of business (keeping their customers happy).
Because the prequels are trash films that care more about fan service than consistency and quality storytelling.
Fan service?
Do enlighten me DatBoi by what you mean by that statement.
People wanted to see Yoda flipping around and doing a bunch of shallow nonsense even though it directly contradicts his character in Empire. It’s part of the running theme in the prequels where the “quality” of a character is determined by how “strong” they are (Maul, Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Sidious, etc).
It didn't contradict anything. He simply called upon the force to guide his movements and give him energy and agility in a fight - old man Dooku did the same thing and so does Palpatine in his office.
Yoda may have still been able to do this in Empire, but he had no one to fight And he was at the end of his life anyway. Just because a being may live for 900 years or whatever, does not mean they can rapidly deteriorate within the last 30 years of their life either.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".
For me, Yoda Proper has always been a symbol of mind over matter. His teachings were about peace, creativity, and logic. Not screaming and flipping around and getting all pi$$ed off.
That’s why I love Luke’s final scene in TLJ. In that moment he is finally a true Jedi and completely embodies Yoda and Obi Wan’s teachings. He bests Kylo without using anger, offense, or even a lightsaber. He shows Kylo that true power is none of those things and that it will never be achievable by those who pursue the Dark Side.
The Original and Sequel trilogies were/are constantly expanding what the Force is, and is capable of. For Jedi, it’s never a weapon or a blunt object to be manipulated for commiting violence, it’s a mental state of peace where the Jedi elevates themself above the conflict and uses their wits to solve problems. The power of a Jedi shouldn’t be determined by how effectively they can hack people apart with a lazer sword, but rather by the strength of their character. This is fundamentally misunderstood by Lucas in the Prequels and it makes me question his creative involvement in the OT when all this was established.
But now we have:
Force-skyping
Mary poppins astronauts
Force users who are completely unaware of there surroundings (Luke wasn't beaten by rey... he slipped on pebbles hahahahaha... that's now canon)
Thank god RJ put a stop to all that "adding to the force" nonsense.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians)
Darth Maul
Lightsaber combat
Count Dooku
Darth Sidious
Clone Wars
Order 66
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc.
Story overall developed nicely into OT
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc.
Mace Windu
Jango Fett
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire
Creation of Darth Vader
Character development
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0)
Cons
Medichlorians
Jar Jar Binks
Little Ani
Pod Race
Anakin Prophecy (never explained)
R2's flying ability
Creation of Clone army never fully investigated
Anakin's acting skills (especialy Anakin & Padme romance scenes)
Where did General Grievous come from???
ST
Pros
Female Jedi Lead
Finn & Poe's bromance
BB8 (but R2 could have done the same job)
Kylo Ren's appearance
Captain Phasma appearance
Poe's piloting skills
New force powers - mind probe & pause, force skype etc.
Killing Han off (it had to be done and was the only realy piece of character development seen thus far)
007 cameo as the mind tricked FOST (I am stretching to add to the Pro list here)
Cons
Rey is a Mary Sue - breaking all star wars lore re: power
Adding diversity for sake of it (Rose)
Adding identity politics for sake of it (Holdo)
Kylo Ren is whiney & dull
Phasma = Underused and ridiculous character
Destroying Han & Leia's relationship
Ruining Luke into unrecognizable character (not preserving or respecting his character as promised)
Not maximizing force powers on-screen with Luke
Stupid force powers like Leia Poppins
Luke dies of...exhaustion???
Who is Snoke and where does he come from? but dies
Kylo cannot defend himself without his saber against SNoke's guards, does he not have the force? lol
Where did the first order come from?
How does the FO have credits enough to be a threat to a unified galaxy?
No interesting new planets/environments
No character development with any of the new characters - they are all boring and bland
OT toons underused: chewie, R2, Leia, Luke etc etc
OT toons sacrificed/thrown under bus for the sake of making new toons "look better" than they are
Lightspeed ramming - breaking lore, why not do that of the Death Star??????????
Poor story telling: TFA = ANH
Poor story telling: TLJ = pointless entire plots of movie Canto Bite, Holdo's Plan, Luke's non-training
To be honest I could go on and on - I just cant. For 1 its too painful to re-live the ST in my head; and 2 its just not worth it. The ST are terrible movies, enjoyable to some degree - but so are the Ewok movies, lol
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
Because the prequels are trash films that care more about fan service than consistency and quality storytelling.
Fan service?
Do enlighten me DatBoi by what you mean by that statement.
People wanted to see Yoda flipping around and doing a bunch of shallow nonsense even though it directly contradicts his character in Empire. It’s part of the running theme in the prequels where the “quality” of a character is determined by how “strong” they are (Maul, Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Sidious, etc).
It didn't contradict anything. He simply called upon the force to guide his movements and give him energy and agility in a fight - old man Dooku did the same thing and so does Palpatine in his office.
Yoda may have still been able to do this in Empire, but he had no one to fight And he was at the end of his life anyway. Just because a being may live for 900 years or whatever, does not mean they can rapidly deteriorate within the last 30 years of their life either.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".
For me, Yoda Proper has always been a symbol of mind over matter. His teachings were about peace, creativity, and logic. Not screaming and flipping around and getting all pi$$ed off.
That’s why I love Luke’s final scene in TLJ. In that moment he is finally a true Jedi and completely embodies Yoda and Obi Wan’s teachings. He bests Kylo without using anger, offense, or even a lightsaber. He shows Kylo that true power is none of those things and that it will never be achievable by those who pursue the Dark Side.
The Original and Sequel trilogies were/are constantly expanding what the Force is, and is capable of. For Jedi, it’s never a weapon or a blunt object to be manipulated for commiting violence, it’s a mental state of peace where the Jedi elevates themself above the conflict and uses their wits to solve problems. The power of a Jedi shouldn’t be determined by how effectively they can hack people apart with a lazer sword, but rather by the strength of their character. This is fundamentally misunderstood by Lucas in the Prequels and it makes me question his creative involvement in the OT when all this was established.
But now we have:
Force-skyping
Mary poppins astronauts
Force users who are completely unaware of there surroundings (Luke wasn't beaten by rey... he slipped on pebbles hahahahaha... that's now canon)
Thank god RJ put a stop to all that "adding to the force" nonsense.
The leia thing was poorly set up and unnecessary, but I love everything else having to do with the Force in TLJ. I thought it had the best approach to it in any sw film since Empire.
People always forget how limitless the Force was in the OT
Yet you complained about it w/ the prequels /boggle
Because the prequels are trash films that care more about fan service than consistency and quality storytelling.
Fan service?
Do enlighten me DatBoi by what you mean by that statement.
People wanted to see Yoda flipping around and doing a bunch of shallow nonsense even though it directly contradicts his character in Empire. It’s part of the running theme in the prequels where the “quality” of a character is determined by how “strong” they are (Maul, Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Sidious, etc).
It didn't contradict anything. He simply called upon the force to guide his movements and give him energy and agility in a fight - old man Dooku did the same thing and so does Palpatine in his office.
Yoda may have still been able to do this in Empire, but he had no one to fight And he was at the end of his life anyway. Just because a being may live for 900 years or whatever, does not mean they can rapidly deteriorate within the last 30 years of their life either.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".
For me, Yoda Proper has always been a symbol of mind over matter. His teachings were about peace, creativity, and logic. Not screaming and flipping around and getting all pi$$ed off.
That’s why I love Luke’s final scene in TLJ. In that moment he is finally a true Jedi and completely embodies Yoda and Obi Wan’s teachings. He bests Kylo without using anger, offense, or even a lightsaber. He shows Kylo that true power is none of those things and that it will never be achievable by those who pursue the Dark Side.
The Original and Sequel trilogies were/are constantly expanding what the Force is, and is capable of. For Jedi, it’s never a weapon or a blunt object to be manipulated for commiting violence, it’s a mental state of peace where the Jedi elevates themself above the conflict and uses their wits to solve problems. The power of a Jedi shouldn’t be determined by how effectively they can hack people apart with a lazer sword, but rather by the strength of their character. This is fundamentally misunderstood by Lucas in the Prequels and it makes me question his creative involvement in the OT when all this was established.
But now we have:
Force-skyping
Mary poppins astronauts
Force users who are completely unaware of there surroundings (Luke wasn't beaten by rey... he slipped on pebbles hahahahaha... that's now canon)
Thank god RJ put a stop to all that "adding to the force" nonsense.
The leia thing was poorly set up and unnecessary, but I love everything else having to do with the Force in TLJ. I thought it had the best approach to it in any sw film since Empire.
People always forget how limitless the Force was in the OT
Yet you complained about it w/ the prequels /boggle
No
In the prequels, the Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation. The Jedi aren't using the Force in creative ways that mirror their pacifist nature like Luke did in TLJ, they're using it as a weapon to lift rocks.
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
Wow - I'll give you Anakin & Obi Wan as friends, but I thought that by the opening sequence of ROTS it was clear they had grown from master and apprentice to friends.
Listsaber - I do think the best LS fight was Empire - and it was visually amazing. PT saber fights were very well choreographed, fast paced and exciting and utilized more of the environments into their fight sequencing - they were exciting.
ST is lame. Kylo swings his sword around like a lame child having a temper tantrum, while an uneducated Rey gets the better of him. Not to mention Kylo even loses his saber against Snoke's guard, and runs away..Does he remember that he commands the force at all???
I also agree that Maul surviving would have done more for Obi Wan's character - but this shows Obi's ability to accept death and move on stronger, unlike Anakin. Maul as a character was a mere pawn (he was cool looking with jagger) but he was a disposable pawn - another reason why I hate his return in Solo. Without his return in CLone Wars and Rebels, that movie fans can ignore, he was dead.
Order 66 was motivated by plot and a character - Palp.
I thought that PT was more divers: Mace Windu, Captain Panaka, Captain Typho, Kitster (Anakin's friend) and also the first female droid - TC-14. I also though Padme (in TPM and AOTC) showed strength and charisma - and as an audience how that transferred to Leia. Although some of the cast was diverse - nothing was rammed down the audience throat.
I thought Mace was a perfect role to show how cold the jedi order could be - he worked well.
The Jedi cut down droids - not people (and were not considered sentient at all in star wars lore until the ridiculous L3 came along). None of their force powers were vicious - pushing people away and absorbing dark energy. They were keepers of the peace and were caught in a war for the republic where they new the opposition were droids and sith.
I liked the creation of Darth Vader - his struggle with and lure to the dark, Sidious' manipulations, fear of loss re: padme, colness from the Jedi and lack of knowledge that could help him. His problem was a secret (being married) and had no one to turn to and finally the climactic duel locking him into the Vader suit forever. He was a story of a heroe's downfall - it could have been told a little better for sure, but ultimately it was a good story.
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
She's also a creepy cradle-robber. They make a nice creepy couple.
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
I know it bothers me
I was responding to @Boo thats why I brought up diversity. I like diversity. I don’t see a problem with diversity for diversity’s sake. But I do think the first six films lacked it (minor side characters with no influence on the story don’t count as representation) and the new films underwrite their female characters.
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
I know it bothers me
I'm pretty confident this is a thread about Yoda and Old-Ben's rapid aging. Not sure how we got back to TLJ... again.
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
I know it bothers me
I'm pretty confident this is a thread about Yoda and Old-Ben's rapid aging. Not sure how we got back to TLJ... again.
Probably my fault. I had a compulsion to criticize the prequels and whenever I do that, the sequel haters start foaming at the mouth.
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
I know it bothers me
I'm pretty confident this is a thread about Yoda and Old-Ben's rapid aging. Not sure how we got back to TLJ... again.
With the amount of hurt circling TLJ and the anxiety regarding the future of the franchise - its easy to turn any star wars topic to those issues, lol.
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
I know it bothers me
I'm pretty confident this is a thread about Yoda and Old-Ben's rapid aging. Not sure how we got back to TLJ... again.
With the amount of hurt circling TLJ and the anxiety regarding the future of the franchise - its easy to turn any star wars topic to those issues, lol.
Only for those with an agenda. The rest of us just discuss the topic.
Then you didn't read my post. I said in addition to critics and Disney shills there are people (you) with strange opinions as to why they liked TLJ - You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine, including my opinion that your thinking TLJ was in any way good is strange. Again, I called your point of view/opinion strange, not you personally as a whole.
Secondly I blatantly explained that these forums do not like the long list of reasons why TLJ was considered by many as a bad movie, or why the star wars franchise is running ground - so I simply cannot repeat them here due to forum rules.
But you seem to not even acknowledge anything of my list which is common knowledge as to why TLJ is a bad movie or why Solo failed - your arguments are generic and flawed arguments at that. Not your fault but you need to take a big look at all the issues surrounding star wars, take your personal opinions out of it and see why star wars is not doing so great right now.
Those reasons span political agendas, trash talking the fan base and character destruction - there was no preserving and respect of the OT characters as was promised by Kennedy when she took Lucas film over from George.
I am not going to argue those points in detail.
Other reasons include cancellation of the EU as no longer cannon - scrapped like mud from a boot. Now I want to be clear - I did not like a lot of the EU stories, but with the lack of movies and other content under the lucas regime many many fans turned to the EU to fill their star wars hunger - therefore many many of those fans loved the EU. It was a hard blow to a lot of fans when it was scrapped.
Then we had the cancellation of The Clone Wars - again, this was not taken well.
TFA was a remake of ANH - but any promising continuation was destroyed in TLJ by Johnson.
It really does go on and on and on as to why people are upset - at the end of the day, a lot of the fanbase has had enough and have boycotted Solo - which is now recognized as the first Star Wars movie to flop!!!
I am not saying Solo was a bad movie - it was a statement being made by the disgruntled fans to Disney and Lucasfilm because, they feel they are above the laws of business (keeping their customers happy).
Dismissal of a non-compliant position outright as weird, other, aberrant and therefore to be dismissed outright is equally dishonest.
Now.
Solo.
Calling Solo a "failure" is highly disingenuous. 380 million global box office, for a 275 million dollar film. Let's pan the camera a bit. What genre is Solo? It's straight up a heist movie. It's beating out the next highest grossing heist movie, Inception, by nearly a hundred million dollars. This is a genre that doesn't tend to do phenomenally well, yet it's making an outstanding amount of money for a heist movie. Which is why you generally don't give them that big a budget. And a lot of that budget wasn't to make the movie. It was to remake the movie, and recoup losses due to production problems.
Solo had a lot going against it, and box office expectations were unreasonable for it from the outset. Trying to cram reception of The Last Jedi in there and pinning Solo's mildly disappointing performance on reception of The Last Jedi, or on the Boycott Solo folks is just absurd, because nothing about Solo's performance at the box office is inconsistent with everything else the movie had going against it from a sales and marketing perspective.
Now. The Last Jedi. Character assassination? Let's specifically talk about Luke. But before we do that, two thing specifically about Star Wars. First? The cycle of Star Wars is of the younger generation surpassing the older, overcoming the horrible mistakes of the well meaning but misguided generation that came before. That ties into two. Star Wars is a series where the younger generation has to solve the problem by growing. It is not a series where Daddy knows best, steps in, and fixes everything. So, by structural necessity of Star Wars, we go in knowing that by necessity, Luke, Han, and Leia messed up, as they are now the older generation, and they will not fix it.
So, we get to Luke. A broken man who's given up and is trying to die. Character assassination of the mighty warrior who bested Vader and never gave up hope for his father?
No. Because that's not who Luke is.
In the original trilogy, Luke tried to commit suicide three times, and he gave up on Darth Vader.
Let's start on Dagobah. Luke has a vision of his friends in trouble, and rushes to help him. Yoda advises restraint, and uses his superior foresight, and sees doom if Luke goes. Luke goes anyways, establishing rash and panicky action in the face of foresight.
Fast forward to Bespin. "No, I am your father." Luke's reaction? "That's not true! That's impossible!" And he throws himself down the bottomless pit. He had no way of knowing he'd live. He jumped fully expecting to die. When faced with this horrible news and Vader's offer, his choice was to give up and kill himself.
The story continues. Luke confronts his lying, manipulative masters, and decides there's hope for Vader, and that he should redeem them.
Fast forward to the Death Star II. Luke gets caught, taken to the Death Star, taken before the Emperor. "Soon I'll be dead. And you with me." Luke did not mean he was going to kick every butt in the room. He knew full well the ship was about to explode. Luke was trying to die with his father. Suicide attempt number two.
Cue the throne room saber fight. Over the course of this fight, Luke ends up genuinely trying to kill Vader, gives into his anger, hatred, and fear, gives up on redeeming his father, and cuts off his arm without hesitation. The sight of his father's severed arm snaps him out of it, he realizes he's made a horrible mistake, and he throws away his lightsaber in disgust. This establishes that yes, it is in his character to give up on the possibility that someone can be redeemed. This is not Luke vanquishing the dragon through valiant might and sparing him through compassion. His violence is clearly framed as failure, weakness, a mistake.
With the dragon defeated, the greater evil starts tormenting him, with every intent to kill Luke. Luke makes absolutely no effort to defend himself as old man Sheev fries him. Suicide attempt number three.
He gets out of that situation not because he is strong and manly, but because he is emotionally vulnerable, which allows him to connect to his father, who body slams the old guy in a bath robe. Soul saved, Luke tries to save Vader's life. Doesn't work. He knows the ship's gonna blow before he gets to a ship, but he tries anyways. Luke only survives the situation because Vader tells him to.
So, we have a character who is deeply damaged, never overcame that damage, whose reaction to terrible news is to shut down and attempt to destroy himself, who is prone to blind, panicky bursts of violence.
We fast forward to The Last Jedi, and we have the most honest take on Luke as he appeared in the original trilogy we could possibly get. Everything Luke does and became flows naturally from the damage and trauma that was OT Luke. Panicking at the prophecy of Kylo falling? A moment's weakness and violent outburst that he quickly snaps out of? Reacting to the horrible truth of his actions and just how horrible the historical Jedi were by giving up, crawling into a hole, and trying to die? Check, check, check. This is the darkness in Luke that he never overcame.
And prevailing by finding his better self, defeating Kylo not with violence but by engaging their personal connection? A million times check.
The way Luke was handled in this movie was absolutely brilliant.
Which gets back to your remark of common knowledge reasons TLJ is a bad movie. There are no such things, because it is not common knowledge that TLJ is a bad movie. It is a divisive movie.
@Chucko_marek umm no? Earlier I posted a list of questions raised in the PT due to bad writing that were resolved in the CW. Later, in response to @Boo I said that I believe many people give credit to the PT films for answering those questions even though they didn't. I fail to see how this applies to the new films.
I would argue that whatever George Lucas deemed the force to be in any of the films is more or less gospel, since it is his creation.
Nope. I’ll give him credit for the initial spark of inspiration, but no more. I credit my love of Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, John Williams, Lawrence Kasden, and Irvin Kershner. Those are the folks who elevated a simple sci fi flick into an epic masterpiece of character drama, heart, fun, and moral insightfulness.
Everything Lucas has done with SW since Empire has only strengthened my doubts over his creative abilities. He’s consistently shown a complete disregard for fans and what the first films established in tone, quality, and lore.
and Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson hasn't done those things???
Not to the same degree. There are parts of the new films I truly love and consider some of the best star wars we’ve ever seen (Poe + Finn in TFA, Luke’s final scene in TLJ, Kylo betraying Snoke, the climax of Solo, the new droid characters, everything to do with the Force).
I can’t say the same for the prequels.
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians) I do think the PT deserves a little bit of credit for not completely rehashing the OT and expanding the scope of the universe
Darth Maul A non-character who exists only because otherwise there would be nobody for the good guys to fight. He does nothing "evil" until the very end, he has no personal investment in the "story", and as soon as an interesting dynamic is set up between him and Obi-Wan, he's killed off.
Lightsaber combat I suppose that "technically" it's good, but it's so dry and poorly directed it gets boring. The worst fight scene in the entire saga is Duel of the Fates because there is no difference between anyone's choreography to externalize character or emotional traits, there's little to no interesting shot composition, there's no drama between the characters, there's no color or color correction to add visual interest and it's so over-choreographed, it just looks rehearsed. Seriously, how does this:
have anything on this:
or this:
Count Dooku Slightly better than Maul because he actually has a role in the story and Lee has so much charisma, but what if Maul stayed alive and replaced him? Then Obi-Wan would have personal investment in the story.
Darth Sidious This is a pro. Especially in Revenge, he's the only character to have any sort of passion. He's having a blast and I dig it.
Clone Wars Going to have to be a little more specific, but I'll say what I can. Everything having to do with the actual "war" looks super phony mostly because it was. Not a single clone helmet was made by a prop department and it shows. I don't care how advanced the CGI is of your time, but if you're filming a "war scene", your actors should not be alone in a giant green or blue studio. That is unprecedented laziness.
Order 66 Decent plot device, but it makes no sense. It would be better if it was more character motivated.
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc. Parts of Naboo are ok since it was actual sets with detail, but everything else is so sterile and fake looking, it takes me out of the movie.
Story overall developed nicely into OT We're supposed to believe that nothing happened for twenty years between eps three and four? Everyone ends up in the exact same spot that they're in at the beginning of ANH which is comically lame. We're supposed to believe that the droids were flying around on the same ship for twenty years? Why wouldn't you leave it a little more open?
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have no relationship. There is no dialogue between them that would even hint at a friendship. At the beginning of Phantom, they could be complete strangers.
The fallout between Obi-Wan and Anakin would mean more to me if we ever saw them as friends. All we ever see them do is bicker and complain to each other. They have no chemistry and honestly it's shocking that they didn't try to kill each other earlier.
Mace Windu It should be illegal to cast Sam J as a (supposedly) BA Jedi Master and never have him yelling at people. He's another boring non-character whose only unique traits are the colors of his skin and lightsaber.
Jango Fett "Hey, people seem to like that character-less plot device with the cool armor in the OT. Let's do that again so we can sell more toys"
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire Some good ideas, terrible execution. Made more sense in the CW.
Creation of Darth Vader I don't think Lucas knows any other way to convey a character's sadness than "NOOOOOOOOOOOO." That scene is hilarious.
Character development Well Obi-Wan's character changes every movie and has no investment in the story and Padme doesn't have a personality so we're left with Anakin... sigh... Anakin is such a nauseatingly obnoxious, inconsistent, and unlikable creep that it's impossible to follow or even care why he's doing things. Does Palpatine sway him to the Dark Side? Is he inherently evil? Who knows? Whichever it's supposed to be, I don't care because I'm not given a reason to.
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc. The Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0) Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Lake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen, Terence Stamp, Christopher Lee, Joel Edgerton...
The only major female character is Padme whose entire existence as a character depends on her sex appeal, ability to have babies, and blind devotion to Anakin. She kicks a CGI monster in episode 2, but that doesn't make her a stong character because she has no agency. She just does what the men tell her to do.
I've already discussed the token black character.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
I know it bothers me
I'm pretty confident this is a thread about Yoda and Old-Ben's rapid aging. Not sure how we got back to TLJ... again.
No, Solo was a failure. Some estimates of the final production budget are near $300 million which doesn’t include the marketing budget, which for most blockbusters is nearly as expensive as the production.
And it’s not just the money. Noboy is talking about Solo. The one thread about Solo on this forum i believe has less than 50 posts compared to the numerous threads for TLJ that are still incredibly active. The quality of the films is irrelevant. Blockbusters nowadays rely on the disturbance they’re able to make on the internet and Solo has barely made a ripple.
No, Solo was a failure. Some estimates of the final production budget are near $300 million which doesn’t include the marketing budget, which for most blockbusters is nearly as expensive as the production.
The sentence, "Solo is a failure," is a gross oversimplification to the point of being dishonest. Particularly since most Disney properties are merchandise- and brand-driven, such that a movie that loses money can still turn a profit in merch sales. And a binary "failure/success" tag doesn't cover what's going on with the movie, especially when the point trying to be made is that TLJ somehow hurt Solo's performance.
No, Solo was a failure. Some estimates of the final production budget are near $300 million which doesn’t include the marketing budget, which for most blockbusters is nearly as expensive as the production.
The sentence, "Solo is a failure," is a gross oversimplification to the point of being dishonest. Particularly since most Disney properties are merchandise- and brand-driven, such that a movie that loses money can still turn a profit in merch sales. And a binary "failure/success" tag doesn't cover what's going on with the movie, especially when the point trying to be made is that TLJ somehow hurt Solo's performance.
I’m sticking by it. People are getting sick of Star Wars. Why else would Lucasfilm be rethinking the release schedules for upcoming films?
No, Solo was a failure. Some estimates of the final production budget are near $300 million which doesn’t include the marketing budget, which for most blockbusters is nearly as expensive as the production.
The sentence, "Solo is a failure," is a gross oversimplification to the point of being dishonest. Particularly since most Disney properties are merchandise- and brand-driven, such that a movie that loses money can still turn a profit in merch sales. And a binary "failure/success" tag doesn't cover what's going on with the movie, especially when the point trying to be made is that TLJ somehow hurt Solo's performance.
I’m sticking by it. People are getting sick of Star Wars. Why else would Lucasfilm be rethinking the release schedules for upcoming films?
The reason that Lucasfilm/ Disney is rethinking the release schedules may be due to people not wanting unnecessary spinoffs, not due to Star Wars fatigue
No, Solo was a failure. Some estimates of the final production budget are near $300 million which doesn’t include the marketing budget, which for most blockbusters is nearly as expensive as the production.
The sentence, "Solo is a failure," is a gross oversimplification to the point of being dishonest. Particularly since most Disney properties are merchandise- and brand-driven, such that a movie that loses money can still turn a profit in merch sales. And a binary "failure/success" tag doesn't cover what's going on with the movie, especially when the point trying to be made is that TLJ somehow hurt Solo's performance.
I’m sticking by it. People are getting sick of Star Wars. Why else would Lucasfilm be rethinking the release schedules for upcoming films?
The reason that Lucasfilm/ Disney is rethinking the release schedules may be due to people not wanting unnecessary spinoffs, not due to Star Wars fatigue
Rogue One did very well and was completely unnecessary. I think people don’t want star wars the way they want marvel: every six months (or less). TLJ just came out and people need a break
Alright, at this point the thread has derailed enough and I'm closing it. Let's keep comments about race, etc. off the forums - that includes pointing out if that's a character's defining trait or not. These forums aren't the place for that and this thread was about Yoda's aging not an argument over the prequels, the OG, or sequel trilogy.
Replies
The leia thing was poorly set up and unnecessary, but I love everything else having to do with the Force in TLJ. I thought it had the best approach to it in any sw film since Empire.
People always forget how limitless the Force was in the OT
2a) Kanan did it first.\
2b) If the Force can move objects, there is no logical reason Force users shouldn't be able to move themselves.
2c) The deadliness of space in Star Wars is wildly inconsistent. In A New Hope, they walk out into a vacuum in the exogorth in plain clothes with a rebreather, and there's pressure and normal gravity.
3) Luke was cut off from the Force.
Amen. I’m tired of people giving credit to the Prequels for things the Clone Wars did.[/quote]
But isn't that what the ST and Resistance are doing? The SW franchise is so massive, and to sell more than just movies, they purposefully give back stories in other media. By that logic, you'd really have to agree that the ST is garbage too.
Then you didn't read my post. I said in addition to critics and Disney shills there are people (you) with strange opinions as to why they liked TLJ - You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine, including my opinion that your thinking TLJ was in any way good is strange. Again, I called your point of view/opinion strange, not you personally as a whole.
Secondly I blatantly explained that these forums do not like the long list of reasons why TLJ was considered by many as a bad movie, or why the star wars franchise is running ground - so I simply cannot repeat them here due to forum rules.
But you seem to not even acknowledge anything of my list which is common knowledge as to why TLJ is a bad movie or why Solo failed - your arguments are generic and flawed arguments at that. Not your fault but you need to take a big look at all the issues surrounding star wars, take your personal opinions out of it and see why star wars is not doing so great right now.
Those reasons span political agendas, trash talking the fan base and character destruction - there was no preserving and respect of the OT characters as was promised by Kennedy when she took Lucas film over from George.
I am not going to argue those points in detail.
Other reasons include cancellation of the EU as no longer cannon - scrapped like mud from a boot. Now I want to be clear - I did not like a lot of the EU stories, but with the lack of movies and other content under the lucas regime many many fans turned to the EU to fill their star wars hunger - therefore many many of those fans loved the EU. It was a hard blow to a lot of fans when it was scrapped.
Then we had the cancellation of The Clone Wars - again, this was not taken well.
TFA was a remake of ANH - but any promising continuation was destroyed in TLJ by Johnson.
It really does go on and on and on as to why people are upset - at the end of the day, a lot of the fanbase has had enough and have boycotted Solo - which is now recognized as the first Star Wars movie to flop!!!
I am not saying Solo was a bad movie - it was a statement being made by the disgruntled fans to Disney and Lucasfilm because, they feel they are above the laws of business (keeping their customers happy).
Hahaha - PERFECT!!! thank you for this!
How can the ST not ruin star wars to the same degree as the PT - the ST is worse...way worse.
PT
Pros
Stuck to galactic lore (except medichlorians)
Darth Maul
Lightsaber combat
Count Dooku
Darth Sidious
Clone Wars
Order 66
Environment - Jedi Temple, Naboo, Coruscant etc.
Story overall developed nicely into OT
Great character relationships - QG & Obi, Anakin & Obi etc.
Mace Windu
Jango Fett
Overall good story - rise of Palpatine in the senate &* creation of the Empire
Creation of Darth Vader
Character development
Force powers understandable and accepted in lore, speed, jump. lightsaber throw, absorb etc.
Did not add identity politics although cast was diverse, including the return of a gay droid (3P0)
Cons
Medichlorians
Jar Jar Binks
Little Ani
Pod Race
Anakin Prophecy (never explained)
R2's flying ability
Creation of Clone army never fully investigated
Anakin's acting skills (especialy Anakin & Padme romance scenes)
Where did General Grievous come from???
ST
Pros
Female Jedi Lead
Finn & Poe's bromance
BB8 (but R2 could have done the same job)
Kylo Ren's appearance
Captain Phasma appearance
Poe's piloting skills
New force powers - mind probe & pause, force skype etc.
Killing Han off (it had to be done and was the only realy piece of character development seen thus far)
007 cameo as the mind tricked FOST (I am stretching to add to the Pro list here)
Cons
Rey is a Mary Sue - breaking all star wars lore re: power
Adding diversity for sake of it (Rose)
Adding identity politics for sake of it (Holdo)
Kylo Ren is whiney & dull
Phasma = Underused and ridiculous character
Destroying Han & Leia's relationship
Ruining Luke into unrecognizable character (not preserving or respecting his character as promised)
Not maximizing force powers on-screen with Luke
Stupid force powers like Leia Poppins
Luke dies of...exhaustion???
Who is Snoke and where does he come from? but dies
Kylo cannot defend himself without his saber against SNoke's guards, does he not have the force? lol
Where did the first order come from?
How does the FO have credits enough to be a threat to a unified galaxy?
No interesting new planets/environments
No character development with any of the new characters - they are all boring and bland
OT toons underused: chewie, R2, Leia, Luke etc etc
OT toons sacrificed/thrown under bus for the sake of making new toons "look better" than they are
Lightspeed ramming - breaking lore, why not do that of the Death Star??????????
Poor story telling: TFA = ANH
Poor story telling: TLJ = pointless entire plots of movie Canto Bite, Holdo's Plan, Luke's non-training
To be honest I could go on and on - I just cant. For 1 its too painful to re-live the ST in my head; and 2 its just not worth it. The ST are terrible movies, enjoyable to some degree - but so are the Ewok movies, lol
Yet you complained about it w/ the prequels /boggle
In the prequels, the Force is reduced to a blunt tool for the Jedi to manipulate so they can kill as many paper-mache robots as possible, and so the screenwriters can write them out of corners. Gone is the reverence for all living things, gone is the subtly, and gone is the innovation. The Jedi aren't using the Force in creative ways that mirror their pacifist nature like Luke did in TLJ, they're using it as a weapon to lift rocks.
The end of this is a problem... you complain about story telling at the beginning & then proceed to say the prequels were terrible do to elements that don't matter to the story... sex, race, identity.
Let's take the newer triology...
* I love the fact they picked a female lead because it was different, but... it just doesn't matter as it doesn't change the story in ANY way.
* Finn WAS my favorite character in the new movies... not because he was black (because that part has nothing to do with the story & honestly... calling him a "black character" instead of just a "character" shows tendencies towards racism). He WAS my favorite because they made him a coward... 3x... 3... times.
* Story telling should be paramount. Diversity for diversities sake does nothing for story telling. It actually hurts because it causes people to fight... those who are upset about a lack of story relevant characters... and those that call said people xenophobic, sexist, racist & homophobis even though it has NOTHING to do with what someone's race, sex, sexual preference or ethnic background is.
Doesn't it bother you that an invisible, non-existent enemy was created for you to lash out against in something that was created as a fantasy to escape said issues for a couple hours?
I know it bothers me
Wow - I'll give you Anakin & Obi Wan as friends, but I thought that by the opening sequence of ROTS it was clear they had grown from master and apprentice to friends.
Listsaber - I do think the best LS fight was Empire - and it was visually amazing. PT saber fights were very well choreographed, fast paced and exciting and utilized more of the environments into their fight sequencing - they were exciting.
ST is lame. Kylo swings his sword around like a lame child having a temper tantrum, while an uneducated Rey gets the better of him. Not to mention Kylo even loses his saber against Snoke's guard, and runs away..Does he remember that he commands the force at all???
I also agree that Maul surviving would have done more for Obi Wan's character - but this shows Obi's ability to accept death and move on stronger, unlike Anakin. Maul as a character was a mere pawn (he was cool looking with jagger) but he was a disposable pawn - another reason why I hate his return in Solo. Without his return in CLone Wars and Rebels, that movie fans can ignore, he was dead.
Order 66 was motivated by plot and a character - Palp.
I thought that PT was more divers: Mace Windu, Captain Panaka, Captain Typho, Kitster (Anakin's friend) and also the first female droid - TC-14. I also though Padme (in TPM and AOTC) showed strength and charisma - and as an audience how that transferred to Leia. Although some of the cast was diverse - nothing was rammed down the audience throat.
I thought Mace was a perfect role to show how cold the jedi order could be - he worked well.
The Jedi cut down droids - not people (and were not considered sentient at all in star wars lore until the ridiculous L3 came along). None of their force powers were vicious - pushing people away and absorbing dark energy. They were keepers of the peace and were caught in a war for the republic where they new the opposition were droids and sith.
I liked the creation of Darth Vader - his struggle with and lure to the dark, Sidious' manipulations, fear of loss re: padme, colness from the Jedi and lack of knowledge that could help him. His problem was a secret (being married) and had no one to turn to and finally the climactic duel locking him into the Vader suit forever. He was a story of a heroe's downfall - it could have been told a little better for sure, but ultimately it was a good story.
She's also a creepy cradle-robber. They make a nice creepy couple.
I was responding to @Boo thats why I brought up diversity. I like diversity. I don’t see a problem with diversity for diversity’s sake. But I do think the first six films lacked it (minor side characters with no influence on the story don’t count as representation) and the new films underwrite their female characters.
I'm pretty confident this is a thread about Yoda and Old-Ben's rapid aging. Not sure how we got back to TLJ... again.
Probably my fault. I had a compulsion to criticize the prequels and whenever I do that, the sequel haters start foaming at the mouth.
With the amount of hurt circling TLJ and the anxiety regarding the future of the franchise - its easy to turn any star wars topic to those issues, lol.
Only for those with an agenda. The rest of us just discuss the topic.
Now.
Solo.
Calling Solo a "failure" is highly disingenuous. 380 million global box office, for a 275 million dollar film. Let's pan the camera a bit. What genre is Solo? It's straight up a heist movie. It's beating out the next highest grossing heist movie, Inception, by nearly a hundred million dollars. This is a genre that doesn't tend to do phenomenally well, yet it's making an outstanding amount of money for a heist movie. Which is why you generally don't give them that big a budget. And a lot of that budget wasn't to make the movie. It was to remake the movie, and recoup losses due to production problems.
Solo had a lot going against it, and box office expectations were unreasonable for it from the outset. Trying to cram reception of The Last Jedi in there and pinning Solo's mildly disappointing performance on reception of The Last Jedi, or on the Boycott Solo folks is just absurd, because nothing about Solo's performance at the box office is inconsistent with everything else the movie had going against it from a sales and marketing perspective.
Now. The Last Jedi. Character assassination? Let's specifically talk about Luke. But before we do that, two thing specifically about Star Wars. First? The cycle of Star Wars is of the younger generation surpassing the older, overcoming the horrible mistakes of the well meaning but misguided generation that came before. That ties into two. Star Wars is a series where the younger generation has to solve the problem by growing. It is not a series where Daddy knows best, steps in, and fixes everything. So, by structural necessity of Star Wars, we go in knowing that by necessity, Luke, Han, and Leia messed up, as they are now the older generation, and they will not fix it.
So, we get to Luke. A broken man who's given up and is trying to die. Character assassination of the mighty warrior who bested Vader and never gave up hope for his father?
No. Because that's not who Luke is.
In the original trilogy, Luke tried to commit suicide three times, and he gave up on Darth Vader.
Let's start on Dagobah. Luke has a vision of his friends in trouble, and rushes to help him. Yoda advises restraint, and uses his superior foresight, and sees doom if Luke goes. Luke goes anyways, establishing rash and panicky action in the face of foresight.
Fast forward to Bespin. "No, I am your father." Luke's reaction? "That's not true! That's impossible!" And he throws himself down the bottomless pit. He had no way of knowing he'd live. He jumped fully expecting to die. When faced with this horrible news and Vader's offer, his choice was to give up and kill himself.
The story continues. Luke confronts his lying, manipulative masters, and decides there's hope for Vader, and that he should redeem them.
Fast forward to the Death Star II. Luke gets caught, taken to the Death Star, taken before the Emperor. "Soon I'll be dead. And you with me." Luke did not mean he was going to kick every butt in the room. He knew full well the ship was about to explode. Luke was trying to die with his father. Suicide attempt number two.
Cue the throne room saber fight. Over the course of this fight, Luke ends up genuinely trying to kill Vader, gives into his anger, hatred, and fear, gives up on redeeming his father, and cuts off his arm without hesitation. The sight of his father's severed arm snaps him out of it, he realizes he's made a horrible mistake, and he throws away his lightsaber in disgust. This establishes that yes, it is in his character to give up on the possibility that someone can be redeemed. This is not Luke vanquishing the dragon through valiant might and sparing him through compassion. His violence is clearly framed as failure, weakness, a mistake.
With the dragon defeated, the greater evil starts tormenting him, with every intent to kill Luke. Luke makes absolutely no effort to defend himself as old man Sheev fries him. Suicide attempt number three.
He gets out of that situation not because he is strong and manly, but because he is emotionally vulnerable, which allows him to connect to his father, who body slams the old guy in a bath robe. Soul saved, Luke tries to save Vader's life. Doesn't work. He knows the ship's gonna blow before he gets to a ship, but he tries anyways. Luke only survives the situation because Vader tells him to.
So, we have a character who is deeply damaged, never overcame that damage, whose reaction to terrible news is to shut down and attempt to destroy himself, who is prone to blind, panicky bursts of violence.
We fast forward to The Last Jedi, and we have the most honest take on Luke as he appeared in the original trilogy we could possibly get. Everything Luke does and became flows naturally from the damage and trauma that was OT Luke. Panicking at the prophecy of Kylo falling? A moment's weakness and violent outburst that he quickly snaps out of? Reacting to the horrible truth of his actions and just how horrible the historical Jedi were by giving up, crawling into a hole, and trying to die? Check, check, check. This is the darkness in Luke that he never overcame.
And prevailing by finding his better self, defeating Kylo not with violence but by engaging their personal connection? A million times check.
The way Luke was handled in this movie was absolutely brilliant.
Which gets back to your remark of common knowledge reasons TLJ is a bad movie. There are no such things, because it is not common knowledge that TLJ is a bad movie. It is a divisive movie.
LOL, I was wondering that too
And it’s not just the money. Noboy is talking about Solo. The one thread about Solo on this forum i believe has less than 50 posts compared to the numerous threads for TLJ that are still incredibly active. The quality of the films is irrelevant. Blockbusters nowadays rely on the disturbance they’re able to make on the internet and Solo has barely made a ripple.
I’m sticking by it. People are getting sick of Star Wars. Why else would Lucasfilm be rethinking the release schedules for upcoming films?
The reason that Lucasfilm/ Disney is rethinking the release schedules may be due to people not wanting unnecessary spinoffs, not due to Star Wars fatigue
Rogue One did very well and was completely unnecessary. I think people don’t want star wars the way they want marvel: every six months (or less). TLJ just came out and people need a break