The Last Jedi

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  • Boo
    3426 posts Member
    Han's ridiculous manuever to lightspeed through the shield is lorebreaking, even in the new canon. Hyperdrives do not work that close to a planetary gravity well. The Imperial interdictor cruiser generates a gravity well which both prevents a hyperdrive from engaging and will interrupt an operating hyperdrive, pulling ships out of hyperspace. The interdictor has been used in SW Rebels and the Alliances novel (new canon). The very existence of the interdictor is proof positive that SW hyperdrives cannot operate close to a large gravitational mass.

    Attempting to fly in through the shield like that is impossible because the ship would drop out of hyperspace well before reaching the shield.

    Rogue 1 also buggered up this concept when Vader's ISD jumped into the battle right outside the Scarif shield when the Rebels were escaping. TLJ buggered it again when the FO fleet arrived above Dqar close enough to be seen with the naked eye in full daylight (eye roll, but it was a neat shot so whatever).

    Point is, the people writing these scripts don't care about lore, just paychecks ... which is why I don't care to see any more films. The EU novels are where to find the good SW stories.

    Thanks for this! Another reason as to why its lore breaking - not only from a combat perspective but also regarding the rules of hyperspace travel in regard to gravity wells.

    Its not known exactly how close Vader's ISD was to Scarif to make that connection, I'd also argue in favoutr of TLJ in regard to the FO fleet at the beginning - but clearly trying to get as close to a planet's surface as Han did to bypass the shield is very clear and against the already rules set within the SW universe to make this maneuver lore breaking.

    Thanks again @EventineElessedil very informative!
  • Boo
    3426 posts Member
    @EventineElessedil

    Didn't Solo also use the Falcon's hyperdrive to escape the gravity wells during the Kessel Run in Solo? I only saw that terrible movie once and don't care to see it again to make sure, but I believe he did this here as well.

    If so, another example of this break in the lore as clearly the gravity well here was preventing the Falcon from escaping and thus clearly had an effect on the ship and its ability to even use lightspeed as well.
  • Boo wrote: »
    @EventineElessedil

    Didn't Solo also use the Falcon's hyperdrive to escape the gravity wells during the Kessel Run in Solo? I only saw that terrible movie once and don't care to see it again to make sure, but I believe he did this here as well.

    If so, another example of this break in the lore as clearly the gravity well here was preventing the Falcon from escaping and thus clearly had an effect on the ship and its ability to even use lightspeed as well.

    I have not yet seen Solo @Boo but hope to sometime soon. The Kessel Run has always confused me, even after reading the old "legends" Han Solo trilogy. SW has always had it's own magic physics and astronomical laws, so I file the Kessel Run in the area of "just accept it." But I really don't like how they just break their own established rules whenever they feel like it. It undermines the whole suspension of disbelief because there must be something to believe in, otherwise it's just a bunch of silly special effects. This whole idea of operating a hyperdrive where it should not work is one of those areas I have a problem with, even with magic SW physics.
  • Boo
    3426 posts Member
    edited January 4
    Boo wrote: »
    @EventineElessedil

    Didn't Solo also use the Falcon's hyperdrive to escape the gravity wells during the Kessel Run in Solo? I only saw that terrible movie once and don't care to see it again to make sure, but I believe he did this here as well.

    If so, another example of this break in the lore as clearly the gravity well here was preventing the Falcon from escaping and thus clearly had an effect on the ship and its ability to even use lightspeed as well.

    I have not yet seen Solo @Boo but hope to sometime soon. The Kessel Run has always confused me, even after reading the old "legends" Han Solo trilogy. SW has always had it's own magic physics and astronomical laws, so I file the Kessel Run in the area of "just accept it." But I really don't like how they just break their own established rules whenever they feel like it. It undermines the whole suspension of disbelief because there must be something to believe in, otherwise it's just a bunch of silly special effects. This whole idea of operating a hyperdrive where it should not work is one of those areas I have a problem with, even with magic SW physics.

    True, but if every ship could use lightspeed through the Kessel Run then they would all be travelling at the same speed...Speed of Light.

    The point made in ANH is that the Falcon made the Kessel Run because its speed and agility in that situation made it famous, not because it diid something all ships can do, travelling at the same speed as any other ship in the galaxy.

    Looking at it this way, it is even more lore breaking than just talking about the use of lightspeed in and around gravity wells where they should not work.

    As for Solo as a movie, I thought it was somewhat of an enjoyable watch, despite several issues I have with it. Overall the story did not flow nicely, the director and production issues are evident that way.

    There were also some things that were nonsensical about the characters and plot, but I wont dive into that if you have not seen it yet.

    One of the things I hated was Han thinking Chewbacca's name was too long (a 3 syllable name) so shortens it to a 2 syllable name - Chewie. This did not need any explanation and just seems thrown in there for the sake of it, looking stupid, lol.

    Ultimately I did not like the movie enough to buy it on DVD, and if E9 fails to redeem the tragedy of the current sequel trilogy, I may get rid of my copies of TFA and TLJ as well - pretend it never happened, just a bad dream.

    @EventineElessedil let me know when you see Solo,I'd like to hear what you think about it overall.

    :smile:
  • Boo
    3426 posts Member
    @EventineElessedil - I just noticed another issue with TLJ.

    Finn refers to the stolen ship from Canto Bite they use to get back to the Resistance fleet as fast, when they are travelling through lightspeed.

    But lightspeed is lightspeed as we determined earlier in our conversation regarding the Keseel Run - it is merely the same speed...Lightspeed.

    So how can this ship Finn is referring to have a faster lightspeed than lightspeed?????

    I am 100% positive that no one proof read Johonson's script for TLJ at all.

    Also they comment that the First Order cannot catch the Resistance ships because they are lighter than their own - but weight is meaningless in space? Again, very odd script indeed.

    Thank you Rian Johnson, lol
  • Boo wrote: »
    Finn refers to the stolen ship from Canto Bite they use to get back to the Resistance fleet as fast, when they are travelling through lightspeed.

    But lightspeed is lightspeed as we determined earlier in our conversation regarding the Keseel Run - it is merely the same speed...Lightspeed.

    So how can this ship Finn is referring to have a faster lightspeed than lightspeed?????

    "She'll make point five past lightspeed." It has been well established that lightspeed can be exceeded in the SW universe ... much like the sound barrier, the light barrier is only a technological limitation. I think of the Falcon's top speed as 1.5c, similar to a Mach number. So not all hyperdrives are the same speed.

    But I know you already knew this @Boo ;)

    Also interesting to think of space as a curved surface. When close to a gravity well, the surface is so "steep" that a hyperdrive is unable to produce the acceleration required to crest the hill, so they must use sub-light engines in that region. But even after the event horizon has been passed making lightspeed possible, space is still curved, perhaps limiting a ship's top speed. We could theorize that the hyperdrive must itself create a curvature in space, possibly creating a bow shock type of deceleration effect which gets stronger with velocity; the faster you go, the steeper the hill in front of you until you can accelerate no longer.

    Anyway, enough of that. Cheers.
  • Boo
    3426 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Finn refers to the stolen ship from Canto Bite they use to get back to the Resistance fleet as fast, when they are travelling through lightspeed.

    But lightspeed is lightspeed as we determined earlier in our conversation regarding the Keseel Run - it is merely the same speed...Lightspeed.

    So how can this ship Finn is referring to have a faster lightspeed than lightspeed?????

    "She'll make point five past lightspeed." It has been well established that lightspeed can be exceeded in the SW universe ... much like the sound barrier, the light barrier is only a technological limitation. I think of the Falcon's top speed as 1.5c, similar to a Mach number. So not all hyperdrives are the same speed.

    But I know you already knew this @Boo ;)

    Also interesting to think of space as a curved surface. When close to a gravity well, the surface is so "steep" that a hyperdrive is unable to produce the acceleration required to crest the hill, so they must use sub-light engines in that region. But even after the event horizon has been passed making lightspeed possible, space is still curved, perhaps limiting a ship's top speed. We could theorize that the hyperdrive must itself create a curvature in space, possibly creating a bow shock type of deceleration effect which gets stronger with velocity; the faster you go, the steeper the hill in front of you until you can accelerate no longer.

    Anyway, enough of that. Cheers.

    I can't believe that slipped my brain!!! lol

    I like and certainly agree with your overall theory!
  • I must admit that thing with lightspeed through shield in the Force Awakens was probably my biggest issue. I was thinking maybe that shield is different from the one in ships. Anyway if ship can go through planetary shield it could cause a serious damage to anything.

    @EventineElessedil there was in Rebels also a moment when Hera(if I am not mistaken) escaped before Thrawn through hangar shields using lightspeed. Don't know what episode it is but always thought it that action was taken from the Force Awakens.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Finn refers to the stolen ship from Canto Bite they use to get back to the Resistance fleet as fast, when they are travelling through lightspeed.

    But lightspeed is lightspeed as we determined earlier in our conversation regarding the Keseel Run - it is merely the same speed...Lightspeed.

    So how can this ship Finn is referring to have a faster lightspeed than lightspeed?????

    "She'll make point five past lightspeed." It has been well established that lightspeed can be exceeded in the SW universe ... much like the sound barrier, the light barrier is only a technological limitation. I think of the Falcon's top speed as 1.5c, similar to a Mach number. So not all hyperdrives are the same speed.

    But I know you already knew this @Boo ;)

    Also interesting to think of space as a curved surface. When close to a gravity well, the surface is so "steep" that a hyperdrive is unable to produce the acceleration required to crest the hill, so they must use sub-light engines in that region. But even after the event horizon has been passed making lightspeed possible, space is still curved, perhaps limiting a ship's top speed. We could theorize that the hyperdrive must itself create a curvature in space, possibly creating a bow shock type of deceleration effect which gets stronger with velocity; the faster you go, the steeper the hill in front of you until you can accelerate no longer.

    Anyway, enough of that. Cheers.

    Sounds like we are getting into Einstein territory.
  • Both episode 7 and 8 we're entertaining and fun but as a hardcore star wars fan I gotta say coming out of episode 6 and going into 7 you don't feel the continuity, as you reach the end of 8, all other flaws aside, you don't feel you know I mean even feel the new guys who are now front and center in the story
  • veejayti wrote: »
    Both episode 7 and 8 we're entertaining and fun but as a hardcore star wars fan I gotta say coming out of episode 6 and going into 7 you don't feel the continuity, as you reach the end of 8, all other flaws aside, you don't feel you know I mean even feel the new guys who are now front and center in the story

    IMHO, Last Jedi should be the first movie in the trilogy, then another 2. Force awakens is a side film? IDK. I will stick to Rogue One.
  • Boo
    3426 posts Member
    veejayti wrote: »
    Both episode 7 and 8 we're entertaining and fun but as a hardcore star wars fan I gotta say coming out of episode 6 and going into 7 you don't feel the continuity, as you reach the end of 8, all other flaws aside, you don't feel you know I mean even feel the new guys who are now front and center in the story

    Its called lazy writing and bad character development.
  • chron
    78 posts Member
    Boo wrote:
    1. Not my opinion. The video I posted proved this.

    2. I agree. Han's move in TFA was dangerous. No one would attempt it because no one would be able to get out of lightspeed before impact. Han did so (because he is awesome). Simply using a cruiser as a battering ram for the purpose of a suicidal run/bomb should have been anticipated in any given galactic military defence. I agree with you - both accounts of this are certainly open to scrutiny of breaking lore - does not make either ok.

    3. No. JJ may not have had anything in those mystery boxes. He left them for Johnson to do something with. Rather than writing something great for those mystery boxes Johnson took the lazy way out and turned them into nothing. That does not subvert expectations in a good way at all. Vader being Luke's father subverted expectations and was possibly the biggest reveal in cinematic history - Johnson just bailed out of trying to do anything good with the mysteries JJ set up for him.

    4. Rey is a nonsensical Mary Sue - please move on.

    5. The scene was nonsensical for the purpose of drama. Not only does Kylo not use the force when he should, but also weapons disappear and reappear in order to make this awful scene "flow" and therefore, doesn't flow at all. There are multiple breakdown videos of this scene on Youtube which show just how laughable it is. At the end of the day it wouldf be like Luke or Obi Wan struggling to take down a few stormtroopers and not using the force to do so - its just a crazy silly scene due to Johnson's terrible lazy writing.

    6A. I don't know what you are talking about here, in regard to Kennedy, but I'll bite. Yes she confirmed no extra footage of Carrie will be used, which is contrary to what has been confirmed already - she has no clue what is going on because she is not involved. She is a figurehead of the company until her contract runs out (3 years) and with Iger confirming again that they will slow any future movies down, her contract will end before another SW movie - she is merely just a presence at Lucasfilm at this point. She is done. Not sure what all of this has to do with the original point of 6A

    6B. This makes no sense. Luke saved Vader but not his own nephew. He saw conflict in Vader but not in Kylo? Yet Rey sees conflict in Kylo. Kylo is clearly more conflicted than Vader ever was, but Luke can't see that? C'mon, give me a break.

    7A. Luke was aware of the First Order as he knew about them during his conversations with Rey. Even when his friend Han died he still did not care - again, this is Jake not Luke.

    7B. This doesn't stop Holdo from doing her thing at any time during the movie. We had a pointless plot at Canto Bite to tell the audience "War is bad...M'kay". Terrible writing by Johnson... again.

    7C. I don't agree on this.

    7D. Glad we agree on this.


    1. The video only regarded Johnson approach to Luke, not what Abrams had in mind, which was hardly anything more than "I can haz Mystery Boxes?".

    2. Why do you assume that Hux, with his vast ego surgically implaneted up his butt, would assume that a desperate Resistance cruiser would pull such a maneuver, especially when he was so focused on destroying the transports? This also follows the logic of not deploying several fighters to oppose Poe's attack in the beginning (and why Poe went alone, with his own ego up his butt, assuming that he would get away with being "one single fighter"), and Hux'x need for the slow chase. He wanted to savor his victory. As far as he was concerned, victory was assured. Ramming was the furthest thing from his mind, and therefore he wasn't prepared for it. The movie made this clear.

    3. Why would Abrams leave Johnson to do anything with them? He didn't hire Johnson. Why Abrams stepped away in the first place from VIII is yet another Mystery Box. You just said that Abrams's Mystery Boxes may not have had anything in them. Johnson took what was done, saw the emptiness of it, and decided to make something grander out of it by fleshing out characters out of tropes. But now we're going in circles here.

    4. She's not a Mary Sue, she's just overpowered. Mary Sues are characterized projections of the author and are not necessarily powered by any means. Just look at most fan fictions (and populist novels based on said fan fictions: Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey, After, etc).

    5. And like I said, the battle would've ended with the same outcome whether they used the Force or not. All this did was take longer to do so. You could just as well ask why the Praetorians fought at all after Snoke's death.

    And I don't take stock in watching whiners on YouTube explain their nitpicky "observations", to justify any wrongful notion of "objective criticism", in hour long videos just to pad their fixed payment algorhithim. I'll just form my own opinions.

    6A. Mainly rumors around that time about Carrie's footage involvemnt in IX. Now it seems like it's back on. The point of 6A is that you're lending too much credence to "muh fans" when they matter very little. And before you bring up Solo's box office as some sort of "fan triumph" (... oy to that), that has already been explained in a complex array of reasons as to why it didn't achieve box office success. Why cater to old fans when Disneyfilm can create new ones, and as long as Kennedy can do that, she's there to stay. She could start by not firing directors left and right.

    6B. He was overwhelmed by Kylo's growing Dark Side and gave into his impulse against a pupil he trained for years, not wanting to see the conflict until it was too late. Rey believed there was a conflict because of her belief in legacy, also a blindside on her part, and before even then, Luke realized what folly it would be to turn Kylo. How conflicted Vader was compared to Kylo is a matter of personal interpretation.

    How was he supposed to save someone he personally trained for years in the Light Side? The last time he saved someone, that someone died. Not a good track record. By cutting himself off from the Force, he thought he was saving everyone. Pretty sure I regarded this matter before.

    7A. Luke didn't have a clue about the First Order or what happened to Han and the galaxy.

    7B. The transports were being destroyed. This was her hail mary pass, not "just another plan". Canto Bight was more than "war is bad, mmmkuy?". It expands on the nature of warfare itself.

    7C. Thanks for explaining? But I think a previous post alluded to this...

    984908c4d655b9326573bcf5fd2548d5.jpg

    Sounds about right.

    7D. It was bound to happen.
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