This is basically a repeats of something I said in another thread. Dooku isn't the problem. Dodge is. Regardless of whether or not the actual math behind dodge is working correctly in game. Dodge is way too potent. It's strips away what little skill is involved in this game due to the ridiculously high reliance on RNG. It just so happens that Dooku's leader ability has the best dodge synergy right now since it grants offense up in a meta where offense/damage is dominant.
While the issue with dodge isn't as game breaking as the Poe coin flip, I personally find it to be far less fun. If I lost the Poe coin flip, and subsequently the match, all I could do was shrug my shoulders and try again. Dodge is far more heavily dependent on RNG and it's as much garbage as the Poe coin flip. Dodge should absolutely have a place. But, it should never be universally as effective across classes as it is for how potent it is. Instead you should be required to form cohesive squads of the same class (i.e. Jedi, scoundrels, etc) to benefit from the full effect.
Bottom line is this : evasion meta is better bc it allows more diversity among teams. Before you had to run like 3-4 meta toons, now u only have to run 1 (actually you don't have to run dooku lead bc their are a few ppl on my server who are top 10 who don't run dooku lead).
Supporters of Poe said the same thing. The problem is, it's as not true now as it was back then. You see the same few heavy hitters and/or foresight toons hidden behind Dooku (although it really could be any of the dodge leaders) in an effort to capitalize on the RNGfest that those matches turn into.
It's not fun and it further removes what little skill is left in this game as RNG assumes more of that control.
Well, I agree that a high evasion bonus should be left for faction synergy. But evasion has nothing on the poe coin flip bc... Wait for it... You had to run poe and the same other toons. I run maul and GG behind dooku sometimes. I have seen toons behind dooku that have never been in arena before. My server is quite diverse as far as who is ran behind dooku. As far as Rey and yoda are concerned, you would have seen them now if dooku evasion was still broken bc it's about the time when ppl are getting them at 6 and 7 stars.
While it does have its issues, I'll still gladly take it over speed dps meta. There is actually more skill involved than previously. Before all it was like was: find fastest 5 toons who hit the hardest, put on team, go club other guy faster. Especially with the lack of AI in this game speed dps required much less skill. Sure, evasion involves rng but it also involves strategy. You get evaded and so your fast caveman with a club style doesn't work as well now and ppl are upset about it. The strategy comes in how you play out the game, you have to make much more thoughtful moves. Earlier I got evaded a lot and it was 4 on 2 pretty quickly, but I won the game by using my characters skills and abilities wisely and on the right enemies at the right time.
If you are having issues with dooku lead teams try a different approach to them than you would use on a speed team( this is not really to you Telaan but others since I'm sure you have figured out how to win against them already).
Maybe for factionless evasion leads a lower bonus would work.
I also just tested in 5 battles the old AOE team vs. Dooku cannon / RG meta. 5-0. Some close wins so it won't be 100%, but it won with bad RNG and in good RNG I had 1 death. Team:
Sid lead, Yoda, Kylo, Phasma, JKA - mix of basics, but heavy AOE spamming from all 5 toons. Yoda for the tenacity up at the beginning. I really don't know why don't build and use these AOE teams to attack more. It's bested every version of meta the game has had since Poe came out.
I'll do some more tests, 5 is a lower sample, but I saw a good mix of RNG in there. I'd guess >70% win rate or so. That's with no Dooku, no RG, no Jinn, no GS, no Rey, no FOTP, on and on. About as non-meta as you can get.
While it does have its issues, I'll still gladly take it over speed dps meta. There is actually more skill involved than previously. Before all it was like was: find fastest 5 toons who hit the hardest, put on team, go club other guy faster. Especially with the lack of AI in this game speed dps required much less skill. Sure, evasion involves rng but it also involves strategy. You get evaded and so your fast caveman with a club style doesn't work as well now and ppl are upset about it. The strategy comes in how you play out the game, you have to make much more thoughtful moves. Earlier I got evaded a lot and it was 4 on 2 pretty quickly, but I won the game by using my characters skills and abilities wisely and on the right enemies at the right time.
I'm inclined to agree. The dodging is annoying, and yes you'll lose some of the time, but that's not a bad thing. I find now some of my fights I really have to think carefully about what I do and I end up using 4 minutes to win. I prefer that over blam blam, I win, next.
Sid lead, Yoda, Kylo, Phasma, JKA - mix of basics, but heavy AOE spamming from all 5 toons. Yoda for the tenacity up at the beginning. I really don't know why don't build and use these AOE teams to attack more. It's bested every version of meta the game has had since Poe came out.
I think heavy AoE teams require more patience and a "leap of faith" compared to single-target teams. It's just more satisfying to knock out one of the bad guys rather than whittle them all down, and you also feel like you are gaining a numerical advantage. Plus with Dooku everywhere a high AoE team will get a lot of counters, and people hate counters.
I also still see a lot of Lumi on my server. Lumi can seriously slow down an AoE team and is not nearly as effective against focus-firing.
I have to chip in here by saying if the RNG really against you, there are no roster of toons or strategy to actually win. Cause when RNG against you, no matter which toons, u still can't hit your opponents..even with beefier toons, u will just be destroyed amid a slower and more painful death..
By this, it doesn't mean that u won't win at all, but it's really boil down to RNG God..
"I'm inclined to agree. The dodging is annoying, and yes you'll lose some of the time, but that's not a bad thing. I find now some of my fights I really have to think carefully about what I do and I end up using 4 minutes to win. I prefer that over blam blam, I win, next."
I'm sorry, but I still don't see the difference between a QGJ lead Rey, GS, dooku RG and a dooku lead, Rey, gs, QGJ RG.
I feel that the latter group is harder for me to beat, manly because of RNG. It's just less fun, simple as that. That's what people are complaining about, less fun. Before it was bam bam. Now it's dodge, attack up, bam bam. Not very different at all in the top ten teams on my shard.
But I will say that I've seen a difference in groups to fight due to dooku lead at the 70-10 ranks. And as long as Rey and GS don't hide behind him and RG, the matches are a very fun and still easyish but different every time.I sometimes I put out a crappy defense at night so I can climb the ladder the next day and play different teams. I can bet one million dollars that no one would complain about dooku lead if Rey, GS, QGJ weren't the most OP characters on the game that can one shot pretty much anyone with a little luck after a dodge and attack buff.
Dooku did not fix the speed meta IMO (I honestly never considered it a speed meta as much as a glass cannon meta). He made it worse.
I would love to see all these other servers with hardly any Dooku leaders in the top 10...mine has 8/10...and 17/20 with him as the lead. I never complain about toons...it's a game. But, my last battle I had all 5 toons with my opponent having Luminara and Dooku left...after 10 straight dodges by Dooku...i lost...just saying
I have to chip in here by saying if the RNG really against you, there are no roster of toons or strategy to actually win. Cause when RNG against you, no matter which toons, u still can't hit your opponents..even with beefier toons, u will just be destroyed amid a slower and more painful death..
By this, it doesn't mean that u won't win at all, but it's really boil down to RNG God..
Im still having a hard time believing people talking about this supposed RNG thing. I'm on 3rd week of completing GWs from start to finish and haven't lost a single character. I do my five arena matches everyday and haven't lost one since I added QGJ and Baris to the mix of characters that I can use. All my best characters are in T8 gear and are 7* except for Qgj & Daka both at 6*. I do see dodges here and there but I don't have any problems whatsoever dealing with it at all. The characters I use are Sid,Lumi,Qgj,Daka,dooku and sometimes Baris,kylo and Ventress.
If dodge is over powered or the AI is on steroids, I'm just not having problems with it or seeing it at all.
Seems u miss my last part, I mention it doesn't mean u won't win at all, it boils down very much to RNG..
When u encounter the RNG gods against you, than maybe you will feel the pain..
Seems u miss my last part, I mention it doesn't mean u won't win at all, it boils down very much to RNG..
When u encounter the RNG gods against you, than maybe you will feel the pain..
So for 3 weeks now I'm just on a lucky win streak? Sorry not buying it.
I believe that having maxed gear helps you dodge, helps you hit, helps you resist as it should as it does in most games. When you are at max gear, max level, maxed everything fighting against lower geared, lower level people of course squads under pared are going to have more trouble fighting. This is what I believe is going on. That and perhaps their choice of squad and ability combinations people are using.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
I'm curious; why are your statements or advice so much more absolute than anyone else's. I find it "unbelievable" that you found/find nothing wrong with the speed mechanic. Even the Devs have a problem with it, which is exactly why we're seeing an update that changes this.
There is no planning for RNG. I'm not sure how you can realistically expect to have that kind of statement taken seriously or reasonably responded to. You cannot plan for random occurrences. Period. Generating more attacks does not guarantee more land. They statistically have the same chance of landing as any other attack. When you add to that the fact that most teams run the same exact high speed assist toons, you can't get much more attackier (yup made-up word) than that.
I congratulate you on your success with Phasma (not sarcasm). The point was never about winning or losing. Once again, you can win with Ewok Scout as lead. But she is not a counter to RNG. She cannot be a counter to RNG. You have been arguing all the wrong points. I've repeatedly said l, and for some reason you've completely ignored it and continued to argue irrelevant points, RNG should and will always have a place. But having it play too much of a role is bad for the game. We're at that point with dodge.
My advice to use Phasma to generate more attacks to combat a squad that dodges a lot is stastically sound (binomial distribution.) You can plan to combat randomness, that isn't the same as predicting it, which you are correct in saying can't happen.
I find there to be nothing wrong with the speed mechanic because it doesn't dictate as much as people claim. It is easily worked around if you accept it and want to work around it. The brokenness of it would be evident if truly nothing else could work. That's not true.
My advice seems to carry more weight to me because I explain my reasoning with evidence. Making opinionated statements like "RNG plays too large of a role" without any substantial evidence doesn't hold as much weight.
You can get more attackier than two high speed assist guys. Get to manipulating the turn meter, it can be ridiculous.
Thanks for the congratulations.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. As I said above the extra attacks granted by Phasma don't out weigh the higher chance of loss of your damage and the subsequent increase in damage received. I also cannot agree that it combats RNG. In fact I think it plays into RNG's metaphorical hands.
Also, if you were to ask someone like @cosmicturtle333 how the speed meta has impacted the game and his ability to run a nightsister or resistance team, or people who would like to run Maul, I think you'd get drastically different responses.
+1
Zero congrats to original poster. Actually -1 for giving out dubious advise.
Phasma adds 18% assist chance. By attack 3, it's a 54% of 1 random assist. Out of the 5 possible attackers now we also have 1/5 crap attack instead of a strong one...20%. Also her assist deals 15% less damage. But by then the enemy's most dangerous glass tank is dead. Also, since assist has higher chance on not falling exactly where you want you may end up buffing a Dooku led team...which just gets much worst when she AoEs.
Compare that to a guaranteed assist...100% chance of an IG-88 or GS or QGJ. Since you don't control when that assist comes (54% first 3 attacks) it may very well come when your stunner tries to stun one that you didn't intend to kill first, but wanted to halt. The extra assist is worthless. Even worst, it may have triggered a RG taunt - sniff for that team. If the enemy uses a heal or special with no attack (Poogle? Poe? Yoda? RG's defense up?) her procs even less.
Is Phasma really that bad? No, but no "binomial-in-your-face" argument can win for those that don't fully understand the problem space. Phasma viability depends on how much you need extra RNG, how much enemy can deal with Slow and Advantage+TM and exact teams compositions.
It's good to know binomial...but you also need to know....THE GAME
As always, I think Dooku is OP. He was OP before he was buffed.
I'm considering getting him just to screw with people using him. A team with Dooku lead, along with Yoda, Sidius, Lumi, and Old Ben would be evading everything.
Negative... Far from a noob here. Generally in the top 10-20. I can put together several different squads. It doesn't matter. If you can't hit them you can't beat them. It's not even Dooku himself. I have always been able to deal with him just fine. There is no strategy against dodge.
I'm seconding to this opinion. Have about 20 7* lvl 70 max gear toons and have enough shards/credits/mat3 to add another 5 to that list overnight.
But Dooku lead is all about RNG. Call me cry baby, but I somehow suspect that evasion % is higher on D. Faced Dooku-led teams with my Dooku-led team and lost close to 80% of fights. Small sample base (15-20 matches) yes, but still statistically it should be close to 50% if pure chance. I'll keep trying though.
Regardless of RNG you should win at a much higher percentage than 50%. Your squad and strategy need work.
So are we all in agreement that phasma is useless..... Lol
NO!!!! She's one of my favorite AOE toons. Srsly. She owns the meter control in the mid/late 1st round through the second round.
There there, calm down little buddy, it'll be OK. If you want to take a handicapped soccer mom into battle as your leader I will stand behind your poor decisions. Truth be told, I was just stirring the pot, the responses are terribly long winded.
Most on my December shard have switched to Dooku, I have tried it but never seem to get the luck of the rng and lose a few. Daka reviving QGJ 3 times in a row for example isn't a 10% chance, or a dps toon dodging 4 times in a row before nuking you, that never ever happens to me on offence. I've stuck to QGJ lead and still get to #1 without refresh but everyday I seem to start further and further back. Leaving Dooku in defence is the logical choice but when it's your last fight of the day and you still need to climb it is an annoying risk. It's great to see different people in the top 10 for a few hours and to have to think about matches but the rng should be equal for both offence and defence.
I think non damage moves shouldn't be able to be evaded just run against resist. Stuff like obi ones mind trick or assajjs aoe dispel has all kinds of backfire against dooku lead teams. I tried to assajj dispel a dooku lead team that just got a phasma buff in a gw...to only give em all a free poogle buff for a turn..
One time had assaj lead to give daka a first turn stun chance.. She missed gave Rey offense up and the secondary stun also missed giving GS offense up. Had to just laugh.
Overall though I think a defensive leader skill that is usable is good for the game. Even with RNG. Noone complains about crit boost heropowers that can RNG a win just the same.
I have to be frank, beating other arena teams due to A.I is normally 85% of the time. Opponent deducting approximately 10% winning chance due to dooku lead evade. Sign me up.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
I'm curious; why are your statements or advice so much more absolute than anyone else's. I find it "unbelievable" that you found/find nothing wrong with the speed mechanic. Even the Devs have a problem with it, which is exactly why we're seeing an update that changes this.
There is no planning for RNG. I'm not sure how you can realistically expect to have that kind of statement taken seriously or reasonably responded to. You cannot plan for random occurrences. Period. Generating more attacks does not guarantee more land. They statistically have the same chance of landing as any other attack. When you add to that the fact that most teams run the same exact high speed assist toons, you can't get much more attackier (yup made-up word) than that.
I congratulate you on your success with Phasma (not sarcasm). The point was never about winning or losing. Once again, you can win with Ewok Scout as lead. But she is not a counter to RNG. She cannot be a counter to RNG. You have been arguing all the wrong points. I've repeatedly said l, and for some reason you've completely ignored it and continued to argue irrelevant points, RNG should and will always have a place. But having it play too much of a role is bad for the game. We're at that point with dodge.
My advice to use Phasma to generate more attacks to combat a squad that dodges a lot is stastically sound (binomial distribution.) You can plan to combat randomness, that isn't the same as predicting it, which you are correct in saying can't happen.
I find there to be nothing wrong with the speed mechanic because it doesn't dictate as much as people claim. It is easily worked around if you accept it and want to work around it. The brokenness of it would be evident if truly nothing else could work. That's not true.
My advice seems to carry more weight to me because I explain my reasoning with evidence. Making opinionated statements like "RNG plays too large of a role" without any substantial evidence doesn't hold as much weight.
You can get more attackier than two high speed assist guys. Get to manipulating the turn meter, it can be ridiculous.
Thanks for the congratulations.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. As I said above the extra attacks granted by Phasma don't out weigh the higher chance of loss of your damage and the subsequent increase in damage received. I also cannot agree that it combats RNG. In fact I think it plays into RNG's metaphorical hands.
Also, if you were to ask someone like @cosmicturtle333 how the speed meta has impacted the game and his ability to run a nightsister or resistance team, or people who would like to run Maul, I think you'd get drastically different responses.
+1
Zero congrats to original poster. Actually -1 for giving out dubious advise.
Phasma adds 18% assist chance. By attack 3, it's a 54% of 1 random assist. Out of the 5 possible attackers now we also have 1/5 crap attack instead of a strong one...20%. Also her assist deals 15% less damage. But by then the enemy's most dangerous glass tank is dead. Also, since assist has higher chance on not falling exactly where you want you may end up buffing a Dooku led team...which just gets much worst when she AoEs.
Compare that to a guaranteed assist...100% chance of an IG-88 or GS or QGJ. Since you don't control when that assist comes (54% first 3 attacks) it may very well come when your stunner tries to stun one that you didn't intend to kill first, but wanted to halt. The extra assist is worthless. Even worst, it may have triggered a RG taunt - sniff for that team. If the enemy uses a heal or special with no attack (Poogle? Poe? Yoda? RG's defense up?) her procs even less.
Is Phasma really that bad? No, but no "binomial-in-your-face" argument can win for those that don't fully understand the problem space. Phasma viability depends on how much you need extra RNG, how much enemy can deal with Slow and Advantage+TM and exact teams compositions.
It's good to know binomial...but you also need to know....THE GAME
+10 good post
Random assists are bad because you can't control the match. It's especially bad when you have a hero like Asajj who wastes her Rampage on a single target as an assist instead of a massive AOE. Also buffs like Advantage are potentially wasted when you don't want to use them on a particular hero.
My name is cosmicturtle333, aka CT-333, aka Threes.
Maybe someone can suggest ways to balance the game ?? Speed and dodge has always been a factor for winning. So what else ?? I agree that beating a dooku team really depends on RNG, but I did have battles that turned in my favor even when it was a bad start ... I know this isn't much but there are ways to beat him, instead of sulking and complaining ...
FYI, I think magmatrooper will be the next most used unit. So if u don't wanna follow the trend, level that fellow. Believe soon we will have a nerf magamatrooper for his 2nd skill that removes turn meter ...
So are we all in agreement that phasma is useless..... Lol
NO!!!! She's one of my favorite AOE toons. Srsly. She owns the meter control in the mid/late 1st round through the second round.
There there, calm down little buddy, it'll be OK. If you want to take a handicapped soccer mom into battle as your leader I will stand behind your poor decisions. Truth be told, I was just stirring the pot, the responses are terribly long winded.
Don't use her as leader. Just need the meter control and the speed down AOE. Also, even vs. Dooku leader, her speed down sticks at a good rate.
@Qeltar - Regarding the AOE team, if the opponent has Daka / Lumi types, they can throw a wrench in there, but what I'll do vs. certain target is FF them down a bit before cycling through the AOE. The team comps that have a daka or a Lumi in there generally are not maximum damage teams (esp Daka) so you can survive even longer with the tanky guys. Dooku countering surprisingly just wasn't much of a problem since it's just one time or so on one character. I ended up 7-0 with that team with 5 of the battles vs. a maxed out Dooku lead with Rey, GS, RG, and QGJ. The other battle was vs. Dooku leader with Daka and a Dooku leader with FOTP, GS, RG, and Rey. 2 of the wins were really close when the enemy had heavy evasions / stuns - like 1 v 1 a the end close - but the other 5 were all fairly comfortable wins. This was the first I had run it against Dooku teams, intuitively I thought that the evasion skill would nullify this build, but that wasn't the case. JKA is remarkably strong in these cases.
@JohnnySteelAlpha - Thanks for the info. I'm definitely interested in trying an AoE team as I am bored to tears of the one-shot meta. But I really need to get JKA and Yoda to 7* to really see if it works, and Yoda is now MIA.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
I'm curious; why are your statements or advice so much more absolute than anyone else's. I find it "unbelievable" that you found/find nothing wrong with the speed mechanic. Even the Devs have a problem with it, which is exactly why we're seeing an update that changes this.
There is no planning for RNG. I'm not sure how you can realistically expect to have that kind of statement taken seriously or reasonably responded to. You cannot plan for random occurrences. Period. Generating more attacks does not guarantee more land. They statistically have the same chance of landing as any other attack. When you add to that the fact that most teams run the same exact high speed assist toons, you can't get much more attackier (yup made-up word) than that.
I congratulate you on your success with Phasma (not sarcasm). The point was never about winning or losing. Once again, you can win with Ewok Scout as lead. But she is not a counter to RNG. She cannot be a counter to RNG. You have been arguing all the wrong points. I've repeatedly said l, and for some reason you've completely ignored it and continued to argue irrelevant points, RNG should and will always have a place. But having it play too much of a role is bad for the game. We're at that point with dodge.
My advice to use Phasma to generate more attacks to combat a squad that dodges a lot is stastically sound (binomial distribution.) You can plan to combat randomness, that isn't the same as predicting it, which you are correct in saying can't happen.
I find there to be nothing wrong with the speed mechanic because it doesn't dictate as much as people claim. It is easily worked around if you accept it and want to work around it. The brokenness of it would be evident if truly nothing else could work. That's not true.
My advice seems to carry more weight to me because I explain my reasoning with evidence. Making opinionated statements like "RNG plays too large of a role" without any substantial evidence doesn't hold as much weight.
You can get more attackier than two high speed assist guys. Get to manipulating the turn meter, it can be ridiculous.
Thanks for the congratulations.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. As I said above the extra attacks granted by Phasma don't out weigh the higher chance of loss of your damage and the subsequent increase in damage received. I also cannot agree that it combats RNG. In fact I think it plays into RNG's metaphorical hands.
Also, if you were to ask someone like @cosmicturtle333 how the speed meta has impacted the game and his ability to run a nightsister or resistance team, or people who would like to run Maul, I think you'd get drastically different responses.
+1
Zero congrats to original poster. Actually -1 for giving out dubious advise.
Phasma adds 18% assist chance. By attack 3, it's a 54% of 1 random assist. Out of the 5 possible attackers now we also have 1/5 crap attack instead of a strong one...20%. Also her assist deals 15% less damage. But by then the enemy's most dangerous glass tank is dead. Also, since assist has higher chance on not falling exactly where you want you may end up buffing a Dooku led team...which just gets much worst when she AoEs.
Compare that to a guaranteed assist...100% chance of an IG-88 or GS or QGJ. Since you don't control when that assist comes (54% first 3 attacks) it may very well come when your stunner tries to stun one that you didn't intend to kill first, but wanted to halt. The extra assist is worthless. Even worst, it may have triggered a RG taunt - sniff for that team. If the enemy uses a heal or special with no attack (Poogle? Poe? Yoda? RG's defense up?) her procs even less.
Is Phasma really that bad? No, but no "binomial-in-your-face" argument can win for those that don't fully understand the problem space. Phasma viability depends on how much you need extra RNG, how much enemy can deal with Slow and Advantage+TM and exact teams compositions.
It's good to know binomial...but you also need to know...THE GAME
There are issues with your math, there is actually only a 44.86% chance that there will be at least one assist from Phasma's leader ability in 3 attacks. Aside from that I get what you're saying, Phasma's assists are unpredictable. Very true. Not sure why anything was brought up about QGJ's and 86's assists being stronger than Phasma's but that is very true as well. I would think that your mention of using her AoE would be when the AI is in control (in which case you've already lost) because, yes, using just one AoE against a Dooku led squad is bad.
I'll restate my position in a mathier way that may need basic decimal multiplication and knowledge of independent probabilities. If there is a 25% chance that Dooku will dodge my attack each time I attack, then if I simply attack him once I only have a 75% success at hitting him. If I attack him twice then I have a 93.75% chance to have hit him at least once. If you find that statement disagreeable then there is no wonder as to why you so strongly disagree with my position. If you understand it we can move to the main point: more attacks mean a higher chance that at least one of them will hit. Since you want to hit your opponents through their newly increased dodge rate, attacking more often will help you do that. Phasma helps your team generate more attacks. Are they unpredictable? Yes. But it's an increased chance you wouldn't have had otherwise.
Now to the fact that random assists may be bad: yes they could be in the cases you and @cosmicturtle333 have mentioned. But there was never any implication from me that Phasma can lead just any ol' team into battle successfully.
The fact of the matter is that this all started when I replied to @Telaan that generating more attacks versus a Dooku lead is a counter-strategy to his dodge granting ability. It is just a bit of simple math to see why this is true. But it seems fear mongering over rules such things and we'd rather tend to the fact that there is a 6.25% chance I'll give them a double dose of offense up in two attacks rather than a 93.75% chance I'll hit them.
And as a final statement: @Telaan has rightfully said that I never addressed his main point, that RNG is beginning to play too much of a role, especially in the case of Dooku, and that this is bad. I don't disagree with the fact that a totally luck driven game would be ridiculous, but I do disagree with the fact that he thinks we have reached a point where it needs to be "fixed." He, and others who have joined him to attempt to explain why Phasma isn't the answer to Dooku, have also failed to provide any evidence of the "RNG has too much to do with the outcome" claim.
I think non damage moves shouldn't be able to be evaded just run against resist. Stuff like obi ones mind trick or assajjs aoe dispel has all kinds of backfire against dooku lead teams. I tried to assajj dispel a dooku lead team that just got a phasma buff in a gw...to only give em all a free poogle buff for a turn..
One time had assaj lead to give daka a first turn stun chance.. She missed gave Rey offense up and the secondary stun also missed giving GS offense up. Had to just laugh.
Overall though I think a defensive leader skill that is usable is good for the game. Even with RNG. Noone complains about crit boost heropowers that can RNG a win just the same.
Exactly. This happens a lot to me it seems. Daka attacks, he secondary stun gets "evaded" on a char I didn't attack and gets offense up then one shots. His evade bonus should only be applied to dmg skills and not crowd control.
This is basically a repeats of something I said in another thread. Dooku isn't the problem. Dodge is. Regardless of whether or not the actual math behind dodge is working correctly in game. Dodge is way too potent. It's strips away what little skill is involved in this game due to the ridiculously high reliance on RNG. It just so happens that Dooku's leader ability has the best dodge synergy right now since it grants offense up in a meta where offense/damage is dominant.
While the issue with dodge isn't as game breaking as the Poe coin flip, I personally find it to be far less fun. If I lost the Poe coin flip, and subsequently the match, all I could do was shrug my shoulders and try again. Dodge is far more heavily dependent on RNG and it's as much garbage as the Poe coin flip. Dodge should absolutely have a place. But, it should never be universally as effective across classes as it is for how potent it is. Instead you should be required to form cohesive squads of the same class (i.e. Jedi, scoundrels, etc) to benefit from the full effect.
You're saying Poe - admittedly a coin flip, is as pure RNG as it gets and requires zero skill - was better than this dodge RNG that can skew a result one way, but is far from a 50/50 coin flip thing? Yet the very next sentence have an issue with how heavy the RNG for Dooku is. Can you maybe explain this better as I'm confused here?
I'm starting to think some are just not well prepared for this new class of skill because it's much less of a RNG issue than Poe and much less dull than the pure speed meta because the battles are not as scripted.
We need to have more than one viable leader skill in the game. Speed leaders are still good even vs. Dooku. Jinn speed leaders are still finishing #1 on my server despite the Dooku presence. Defense is getting a re-work soon too.
Every modest meta shift always creates a panic. He's been fixed for how long? How many combinations has everyone really tried vs. the Dooku teams to thoroughly say it's broken?
@Pilot has posted videos of Ewoks beating Dooku teams. Of Rex-led tusken / Clone teams beating Dooku. We know the Jinn speed teams can still defeat Dooku led teams - I see it on my server every day. I know tanks with a Dooku lead can beat Dooku speed teams. I agree the dodges when they go crazy and hit at bad times are VERY frustrating for a moment, but the monotony of predictable outcomes in battle is worse in my view.
If that #1 Jinn leader you were mentioning was Raollow he switched to Dooku lead. 16 of the top 20 are currently using him. I am going on night shifts for a month so I am out of the running for a while anyway lol.
I'm going to throw my two cents into this mess of a forum. I would like to say thank you to everyone that offered advice or actually took the time to be mature, rather than drop in and talk about how everyone that doesn't like the new changes are "crying".
So here we go:
1. I think right now we're dealing with two issues coming together, the first being the bloody useless "protection" gimmick, and the second being the broken arena dodge bonuses.
2. I've given up on fighting any team with a dodge bonus. I have dooku and lumi lead teams and my dodge rate is just sad. Just now I had two fights, one with dooku and the other with obi, and no joke I did not get a single hit in on either before losing one of my toons (10 dodge with obi and eight with dooku).
3. I don't often get ones that bad, but two in a row made me question this recent update. Dodge leaders are broken, and I'm sorry that that annoys people who rely on those builds, but that's the truth of the matter. And the main issue is the fact that they're just aren't enough uselful characters to balance this all out.
4. Someone earlier mentioned the game supposedly having a rock-paper-scissors mechanic, which just isn't true with dodge builds (seriously what the heck counters ai dodge?), and this game is in sore need of that. We've already established kotor as canon (woot for my max HK) so why not add more characters that apply bonuses when attacks are dodged? Or characters that automatically do some kind of fraction damage when they are dodged?
5. EA is a business, they don't give a **** about people who support or hate them. But hopefully they'll take something from this forum that will help this game, because right now it is in dire need of balancing.
I'm going to throw my two cents into this mess of a forum. I would like to say thank you to everyone that offered advice or actually took the time to be mature, rather than drop in and talk about how everyone that doesn't like the new changes are "crying".
So here we go:
1. I think right now we're dealing with two issues coming together, the first being the bloody useless "protection" gimmick, and the second being the broken arena dodge bonuses.
2. I've given up on fighting any team with a dodge bonus. I have dooku and lumi lead teams and my dodge rate is just sad. Just now I had two fights, one with dooku and the other with obi, and no joke I did not get a single hit in on either before losing one of my toons (10 dodge with obi and eight with dooku).
3. I don't often get ones that bad, but two in a row made me question this recent update. Dodge leaders are broken, and I'm sorry that that annoys people who rely on those builds, but that's the truth of the matter. And the main issue is the fact that they're just aren't enough uselful characters to balance this all out.
4. Someone earlier mentioned the game supposedly having a rock-paper-scissors mechanic, which just isn't true with dodge builds (seriously what the heck counters ai dodge?), and this game is in sore need of that. We've already established kotor as canon (woot for my max HK) so why not add more characters that apply bonuses when attacks are dodged? Or characters that automatically do some kind of fraction damage when they are dodged?
5. EA is a business, they don't give a **** about people who support or hate them. But hopefully they'll take something from this forum that will help this game, because right now it is in dire need of balancing.
Necroing treads is against forum rules.
This is months old and contains information or players opinions wich may be inaccurate atm. Please don't do that, if you feel like you have something to say about, just open a fresh tread. Cheers
Negative... Far from a noob here. Generally in the top 10-20. I can put together several different squads. It doesn't matter. If you can't hit them you can't beat them. It's not even Dooku himself. I have always been able to deal with him just fine. There is no strategy against dodge.
Replies
Well, I agree that a high evasion bonus should be left for faction synergy. But evasion has nothing on the poe coin flip bc... Wait for it... You had to run poe and the same other toons. I run maul and GG behind dooku sometimes. I have seen toons behind dooku that have never been in arena before. My server is quite diverse as far as who is ran behind dooku. As far as Rey and yoda are concerned, you would have seen them now if dooku evasion was still broken bc it's about the time when ppl are getting them at 6 and 7 stars.
While it does have its issues, I'll still gladly take it over speed dps meta. There is actually more skill involved than previously. Before all it was like was: find fastest 5 toons who hit the hardest, put on team, go club other guy faster. Especially with the lack of AI in this game speed dps required much less skill. Sure, evasion involves rng but it also involves strategy. You get evaded and so your fast caveman with a club style doesn't work as well now and ppl are upset about it. The strategy comes in how you play out the game, you have to make much more thoughtful moves. Earlier I got evaded a lot and it was 4 on 2 pretty quickly, but I won the game by using my characters skills and abilities wisely and on the right enemies at the right time.
If you are having issues with dooku lead teams try a different approach to them than you would use on a speed team( this is not really to you Telaan but others since I'm sure you have figured out how to win against them already).
Maybe for factionless evasion leads a lower bonus would work.
Sid lead, Yoda, Kylo, Phasma, JKA - mix of basics, but heavy AOE spamming from all 5 toons. Yoda for the tenacity up at the beginning. I really don't know why don't build and use these AOE teams to attack more. It's bested every version of meta the game has had since Poe came out.
I'll do some more tests, 5 is a lower sample, but I saw a good mix of RNG in there. I'd guess >70% win rate or so. That's with no Dooku, no RG, no Jinn, no GS, no Rey, no FOTP, on and on. About as non-meta as you can get.
I think heavy AoE teams require more patience and a "leap of faith" compared to single-target teams. It's just more satisfying to knock out one of the bad guys rather than whittle them all down, and you also feel like you are gaining a numerical advantage. Plus with Dooku everywhere a high AoE team will get a lot of counters, and people hate counters.
I also still see a lot of Lumi on my server. Lumi can seriously slow down an AoE team and is not nearly as effective against focus-firing.
By this, it doesn't mean that u won't win at all, but it's really boil down to RNG God..
Very well put.
I feel that the latter group is harder for me to beat, manly because of RNG. It's just less fun, simple as that. That's what people are complaining about, less fun. Before it was bam bam. Now it's dodge, attack up, bam bam. Not very different at all in the top ten teams on my shard.
But I will say that I've seen a difference in groups to fight due to dooku lead at the 70-10 ranks. And as long as Rey and GS don't hide behind him and RG, the matches are a very fun and still easyish but different every time.I sometimes I put out a crappy defense at night so I can climb the ladder the next day and play different teams. I can bet one million dollars that no one would complain about dooku lead if Rey, GS, QGJ weren't the most OP characters on the game that can one shot pretty much anyone with a little luck after a dodge and attack buff.
Dooku did not fix the speed meta IMO (I honestly never considered it a speed meta as much as a glass cannon meta). He made it worse.
Im still having a hard time believing people talking about this supposed RNG thing. I'm on 3rd week of completing GWs from start to finish and haven't lost a single character. I do my five arena matches everyday and haven't lost one since I added QGJ and Baris to the mix of characters that I can use. All my best characters are in T8 gear and are 7* except for Qgj & Daka both at 6*. I do see dodges here and there but I don't have any problems whatsoever dealing with it at all. The characters I use are Sid,Lumi,Qgj,Daka,dooku and sometimes Baris,kylo and Ventress.
If dodge is over powered or the AI is on steroids, I'm just not having problems with it or seeing it at all.
When u encounter the RNG gods against you, than maybe you will feel the pain..
So for 3 weeks now I'm just on a lucky win streak? Sorry not buying it.
I believe that having maxed gear helps you dodge, helps you hit, helps you resist as it should as it does in most games. When you are at max gear, max level, maxed everything fighting against lower geared, lower level people of course squads under pared are going to have more trouble fighting. This is what I believe is going on. That and perhaps their choice of squad and ability combinations people are using.
+1
Zero congrats to original poster. Actually -1 for giving out dubious advise.
Phasma adds 18% assist chance. By attack 3, it's a 54% of 1 random assist. Out of the 5 possible attackers now we also have 1/5 crap attack instead of a strong one...20%. Also her assist deals 15% less damage. But by then the enemy's most dangerous glass tank is dead. Also, since assist has higher chance on not falling exactly where you want you may end up buffing a Dooku led team...which just gets much worst when she AoEs.
Compare that to a guaranteed assist...100% chance of an IG-88 or GS or QGJ. Since you don't control when that assist comes (54% first 3 attacks) it may very well come when your stunner tries to stun one that you didn't intend to kill first, but wanted to halt. The extra assist is worthless. Even worst, it may have triggered a RG taunt - sniff for that team. If the enemy uses a heal or special with no attack (Poogle? Poe? Yoda? RG's defense up?) her procs even less.
Is Phasma really that bad? No, but no "binomial-in-your-face" argument can win for those that don't fully understand the problem space. Phasma viability depends on how much you need extra RNG, how much enemy can deal with Slow and Advantage+TM and exact teams compositions.
It's good to know binomial...but you also need to know....THE GAME
Easy win.
Regardless of RNG you should win at a much higher percentage than 50%. Your squad and strategy need work.
There there, calm down little buddy, it'll be OK. If you want to take a handicapped soccer mom into battle as your leader I will stand behind your poor decisions. Truth be told, I was just stirring the pot, the responses are terribly long winded.
One time had assaj lead to give daka a first turn stun chance.. She missed gave Rey offense up and the secondary stun also missed giving GS offense up. Had to just laugh.
Overall though I think a defensive leader skill that is usable is good for the game. Even with RNG. Noone complains about crit boost heropowers that can RNG a win just the same.
+10 good post
Random assists are bad because you can't control the match. It's especially bad when you have a hero like Asajj who wastes her Rampage on a single target as an assist instead of a massive AOE. Also buffs like Advantage are potentially wasted when you don't want to use them on a particular hero.
Don't use her as leader. Just need the meter control and the speed down AOE. Also, even vs. Dooku leader, her speed down sticks at a good rate.
@Qeltar - Regarding the AOE team, if the opponent has Daka / Lumi types, they can throw a wrench in there, but what I'll do vs. certain target is FF them down a bit before cycling through the AOE. The team comps that have a daka or a Lumi in there generally are not maximum damage teams (esp Daka) so you can survive even longer with the tanky guys. Dooku countering surprisingly just wasn't much of a problem since it's just one time or so on one character. I ended up 7-0 with that team with 5 of the battles vs. a maxed out Dooku lead with Rey, GS, RG, and QGJ. The other battle was vs. Dooku leader with Daka and a Dooku leader with FOTP, GS, RG, and Rey. 2 of the wins were really close when the enemy had heavy evasions / stuns - like 1 v 1 a the end close - but the other 5 were all fairly comfortable wins. This was the first I had run it against Dooku teams, intuitively I thought that the evasion skill would nullify this build, but that wasn't the case. JKA is remarkably strong in these cases.
There are issues with your math, there is actually only a 44.86% chance that there will be at least one assist from Phasma's leader ability in 3 attacks. Aside from that I get what you're saying, Phasma's assists are unpredictable. Very true. Not sure why anything was brought up about QGJ's and 86's assists being stronger than Phasma's but that is very true as well. I would think that your mention of using her AoE would be when the AI is in control (in which case you've already lost) because, yes, using just one AoE against a Dooku led squad is bad.
I'll restate my position in a mathier way that may need basic decimal multiplication and knowledge of independent probabilities. If there is a 25% chance that Dooku will dodge my attack each time I attack, then if I simply attack him once I only have a 75% success at hitting him. If I attack him twice then I have a 93.75% chance to have hit him at least once. If you find that statement disagreeable then there is no wonder as to why you so strongly disagree with my position. If you understand it we can move to the main point: more attacks mean a higher chance that at least one of them will hit. Since you want to hit your opponents through their newly increased dodge rate, attacking more often will help you do that. Phasma helps your team generate more attacks. Are they unpredictable? Yes. But it's an increased chance you wouldn't have had otherwise.
Now to the fact that random assists may be bad: yes they could be in the cases you and @cosmicturtle333 have mentioned. But there was never any implication from me that Phasma can lead just any ol' team into battle successfully.
The fact of the matter is that this all started when I replied to @Telaan that generating more attacks versus a Dooku lead is a counter-strategy to his dodge granting ability. It is just a bit of simple math to see why this is true. But it seems fear mongering over rules such things and we'd rather tend to the fact that there is a 6.25% chance I'll give them a double dose of offense up in two attacks rather than a 93.75% chance I'll hit them.
And as a final statement: @Telaan has rightfully said that I never addressed his main point, that RNG is beginning to play too much of a role, especially in the case of Dooku, and that this is bad. I don't disagree with the fact that a totally luck driven game would be ridiculous, but I do disagree with the fact that he thinks we have reached a point where it needs to be "fixed." He, and others who have joined him to attempt to explain why Phasma isn't the answer to Dooku, have also failed to provide any evidence of the "RNG has too much to do with the outcome" claim.
Exactly. This happens a lot to me it seems. Daka attacks, he secondary stun gets "evaded" on a char I didn't attack and gets offense up then one shots. His evade bonus should only be applied to dmg skills and not crowd control.
If that #1 Jinn leader you were mentioning was Raollow he switched to Dooku lead. 16 of the top 20 are currently using him. I am going on night shifts for a month so I am out of the running for a while anyway lol.
Phasma lead, no Jedi's to reduce stun
Dooku moves first, stuns 86 and Geo, ok, bad start
Phasma has an 18% call in chance, Dooku 15% dodge Chance
I got 1 call in, Dooku lead got 6 dodges
Them the breaks
So here we go:
1. I think right now we're dealing with two issues coming together, the first being the bloody useless "protection" gimmick, and the second being the broken arena dodge bonuses.
2. I've given up on fighting any team with a dodge bonus. I have dooku and lumi lead teams and my dodge rate is just sad. Just now I had two fights, one with dooku and the other with obi, and no joke I did not get a single hit in on either before losing one of my toons (10 dodge with obi and eight with dooku).
3. I don't often get ones that bad, but two in a row made me question this recent update. Dodge leaders are broken, and I'm sorry that that annoys people who rely on those builds, but that's the truth of the matter. And the main issue is the fact that they're just aren't enough uselful characters to balance this all out.
4. Someone earlier mentioned the game supposedly having a rock-paper-scissors mechanic, which just isn't true with dodge builds (seriously what the heck counters ai dodge?), and this game is in sore need of that. We've already established kotor as canon (woot for my max HK) so why not add more characters that apply bonuses when attacks are dodged? Or characters that automatically do some kind of fraction damage when they are dodged?
5. EA is a business, they don't give a **** about people who support or hate them. But hopefully they'll take something from this forum that will help this game, because right now it is in dire need of balancing.
Necroing treads is against forum rules.
This is months old and contains information or players opinions wich may be inaccurate atm. Please don't do that, if you feel like you have something to say about, just open a fresh tread. Cheers
This