So 15% dodge from dooku are op and the other dodge leaders like luminara with 13% are fine?
Allies dodging with Lumi leader don't get offense up. That's a HUGE difference...especially in the DPS meta.
But this thread isnt about offense up. Its about people crying that they cant hit a dooku lead team. And those 2% more dodge on dooku then on lumi cat make that much of a difference.
I took 3 dooku teams on in the arena just to take another look at it. Didnt experienced an unusual high amount of dodges. A lumi dodged 4 attacks in a row. That **** and almost lost me the game but thats rng and statisticly not very unusual.
Maybe i will get past my dooku hate and unlock him myself just to try out that "unhittable" force ... But just from fighting him i cannot see him beeing op just because of dodges.
Dodging is a legitimate defense in a lot of battle games. Many dice games have a 1/3 dodge rate, sometimes even 1/2. The strategy is plan to use more attacks than usual. Don't kid yourself that both of the assist attacks will hit, plan on another attack or two to take them out. It only needs fixed if it's game breaking, which it isn't. Game changing, sure, for teams that lack depth. But that's exactly what needs to happen.
What happens when there's no direct counter stat (such as accuracy) and/or the dodge teams have equivalent, or nearly so, speed?
I've always loved dodge as a strategy. It's one of my favorite stats to min/max towards. However, in every game I've ever played, that I can think of, there is a direct counter to it. The risk is that when you are countered you get rocked. The reward is that when it works, it's beautiful.
However, we have no direct counter to dodge and, in general, we're seeing the same exact fast heavy hitters. The teams, for the most part, haven't changed except to swap the position of QGJ and Dooku in the squad.
There's no change in strategy. I play exactly the same as before. The only difference is that RNG now plays a much bigger role in the outcome of a match. This isn't some new met that has turned things on its heels or is causing people to panic. This hasn't forced anyone to reevaluate toons, grind new ones, or restrategize how they attack. This is simply the same meta as before with a new and improved RNG.
True, there is no counter stat, but it isn't as if there is no counter strategy. Play a team geared toward generating extra attacks. FYI: speed doesn't mean extra attacks, especially in an arena filled with high-speed characters. Phasma is a great lead against Dooku.
And I'm not sure if, by your last paragraph, you mean your strategy against a Dooku lead doesn't change or if your strategy in making a Dooku team isn't different, i.e. high "dps." But if you mean your strategy against Dooku doesn't change then there must not be a problem or you are choosing to just power through the weakness your team has against it.
Phasma is an atrocious lead against Dooku. Sorry, I don't agree at all. Phasma is inferior to both QGJ and Dooku. On top of that most people, regardless of whether they run QGJ or Dooku as lead, already run QGJ and/or GS as part of their cookie cutter speed/DPS team. That's an assist attack every other turn, generating a fair amount of extra attacks.
The priority targets haven't change because the team compositions haven't changed. The strategy for defeating the cookie cutter speed/DPS teams led by Dooku doesn't change just because Dooku and QGJ have swapped positions within the squad. It has nothing to do with me being stubborn, unable to adapt, needing to l2p, or any other asinine argument that others have made in this thread. Nothing about the fundamental strategy on who to target or how to play a match has changed. The only thing that has changed is how much RNG plays a role in your win or loss.
Why is this leader ability universally effective while most others require a specific class to receive the full benefit?
I must again point out that I'm speaking from experience of what works for me against Dooku and QGJ leads. If you simply refute me for the sake of it, there's nothing more I can say to convince you.
To the others who will read this: if you are using the same team, targeting in the same order and telling me a team you must not have played (or played correctly) is inferior to the teams you play and the ones you're playing against, you must understand that I already know the results my team generates. I'm not looking for confirmation from naysayers: I'm offering advice. My advice has been scoffed and generally ill-received by those claiming to not be stubborn, but it doesn't make it any less true.
I'm sure all of you who disagree with my advice can forgive me for wasting your time.
I've run/tried Phasma. I'm speaking from personal experience. I use refreshes in arena daily and retreat from GW for the sole purpose of trying numerous squads repeatedly in various scenarios. The last thing I'm doing is refuting you simply for the sake of doing that. I'm not sure why you'd jump to that conclusion.
The success rate of a Phasma led team versus Dooku led ones was significantly lower in my experience. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't write off my replies or advice in the same manner you don't want yours written off.
Your results couldn't be any starker of a contrast to mine. I've run Phasma through the "speed meta" and now the "Dooku meta." She's good, though you simply write her off as inferior in your post. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you had run a Phasma team up until the Dooku meta, like I have, and ran into such trouble that you were forced to change. It seems obvious that your amount experience with the team isn't the same as mine. You are jumping to a grossly erroneous conclusion from your limited experience. If you insist that you are not, then I will again point out that my day-in and day-out experience with Phasma lead (not just GW and experimentation) shows the opposite of your conclusion. It may also be fair to say that my arena experience is at least as challenging as your GW experiments considering it is at the top of my server and not simply a node in GW, though I can't claim anything about the times you may have used Phasma in your arena.
So your limited GW and expeimental experience or my daily arena experience? I'm not "writing off" your replies, I'm disagreeing with them for great reason. Your "I agree with someone else, Phasma is inferior" without any further explanation is what I mean by "writing off."
The TLDR of your post was: your experience > mine because you main Phasma. Lol ok, that's why Phasma didn't dominate the leader board when QGJ did and doesn't now that Dooku is doing the same.
You won on offense: /golf clap. People are getting rank 1 with CUP as their leader. You've entirely missed the point and are attempting to boil this down to an argument over winning vs losing or who is more op, when I have repeatedly, specifically said, this has nothing to do with that. This has to do with turning more control of the game over to RNG.
Please just stop with your Phasma fanboyism. Just because you can win vs a Dooku led team with her does not make her the counter to a ridiculous system that so heavily favors RNG.
Oh, wow. Let's get back to my real point: Phasma is a good counter to Dooku. I brought up all my experience simply to let people who may want to consider my advice know that it wasn't made without reason. It appears that since I'm not bending to your point of view that my advice is rubbish. To be blunt, you need to stop with the nonsense you are spreading on this particular thread about how this game is controlled by RNG. Luck is most certainly involved but you insist on claiming that it is the most influential aspect of these fights against Dooku because you aren't doing anything different in your fights!
Your point is simply now that Dooku boosts dodging more luck is involved....uh, yes? That doesn't make the entire arena about luck, just because there isn't a stat that counters dodge rate. There are strategies that counter it. I shared one possible strategy. You and at least one other have disagreed using false reasoning. I have tried to shed light to why your reasoning is skewed with my experience and am now responding to a post telling me I am a Phasma fanboy.
Unbelievable.
BTW, dominating a leader board on this defenseless game is simply a matter of popular opinion and not strength of squad.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
dominating a leader board on this defenseless game is simply a matter of popular opinion and not strength of squad.
This is really the only part of your post worth responding to at this point. The rest is just nonsense. There are only so many strategies to beating the same cookie cutter teams. Your advice is not advice. You might as well have told people to run Ewok Scout as a leader. "Unbelievable".
I'm thoroughly amused by this quoted part of your reply though. You don't think that many of the top players don't spend hours theory crafting and experimenting with various squads on both offense and defense? You don't think that just maybe the reason Dooku is so prevalent on the boards is because he has the best chance of successfully defending due to RNG? Nah you're right, he just happens to be the single most popular toon in the game, just like QGJ before him.
RNG is the single biggest factor in this game. From loot to combat. Adding more RNG into the game is utterly ridiculous. Thinking Phasma is the counter to RNG is.....
I changed to a Dooku lead and actually managed to force my way back into top 100.
Come at me haters.
I changed to a dooku lead did my 5 arena fights this morning finished at #76. Just logged on before coming to the forums and now I'm at #150. Like I said before the complainers need to gear up, level up, star up or just shut up.
All these post of people complaining about dooku must really have undergeared, 4*, worthless squad combinations cause I'm just not seeing it. I can easily go up the ranks and easily go down...this happened today. Either that's their problem or they are just exaggerating and lying.
I changed to a Dooku lead and actually managed to force my way back into top 100.
Come at me haters.
I changed to a dooku lead did my 5 arena fights this morning finished at #76. Just logged on before coming to the forums and now I'm at #150. Like I said before the complainers need to gear up, level up, star up or just shut up.
All these post of people complaining about dooku must really have undergeared, 4*, worthless squad combinations cause I'm just not seeing it. I can easily go up the ranks and easily go down...this happened today.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
I hope you are truly smart enough to understand that my daily use of Phasma as my lead isn't a "singular" experience. It's multiple fights on multiple days. Biased would be if I had a particular love of Phasma as accused, though I do not. What you are claiming is my "bias" is my experience which is necessary to draw conclusions.
I do not refute that RNG is involved, I didn't fail to acknowledge it's effects in any of my posts. Knowing there is a chance to miss means planning on making more attacks to ensure one lands. Randomness has a necessary place in games. Otherwise you sit down and know the outcome in advance. Your claims that RNG are dominating the game are ridiculous. Your attempts to try and prove that anything I'm saying is unreasonable is ridiculous. The statement that a dodge RNG mechanic is crossing the line when other RNG mechanics (Phasma's for example) are rubbish is ridiculous.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
Would all this go away if I had a QGJ led team that I never stopped using, constantly play in the same manner, suddenly realized in the arena that characters dodge my attacks and I can't end fights the same way I have been for weeks if not months, and then came to this thread not to disagree but to say that it is horrible that so much luck is involved in fights now?
On our server there are currently 12 Doku teams in the top 20. I run a QGJ lead team since Poe got popular and I am still running it (swaped two toons though) without any problems.
RNG may decide how long the fight will last, but I would totally disagree on that RNG decides who will win the fight.
jesus ****...no matter what the devs do poeple are gonna cry about it. If you can't beat em, join em. But if you are too stubborn to join then we already have enough info that states that jedi teams are gonna make a comeback after the cap raise and more toons opening up different synergies, a whole new level of cantina nodes that could possible open up new toons that were p2p can convert to f2p which will change what toons we'll see in arena. AND the new toons that will be added. Dooku teams are NOT that difficult to beat, you just need to stop being stubborn and just ADJUST to the new leader trend. It's not going to last for long so just toughen up kid. Btw if you're F2p then you're gonna take a major hit in arena for 2-3 weeks until you catch up to the p2p guys which should give you enough time to adjust properly to the shift
I changed to a Dooku lead and actually managed to force my way back into top 100.
Come at me haters.
I changed to a dooku lead did my 5 arena fights this morning finished at #76. Just logged on before coming to the forums and now I'm at #150. Like I said before the complainers need to gear up, level up, star up or just shut up.
All these post of people complaining about dooku must really have undergeared, 4*, worthless squad combinations cause I'm just not seeing it. I can easily go up the ranks and easily go down...this happened today.
What team do you run? Besides dooku?
Qgj(L),Lumi,Daka,Sid, depending on the team I'm facing I also use Baris.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
I'm curious; why are your statements or advice so much more absolute than anyone else's. I find it "unbelievable" that you found/find nothing wrong with the speed mechanic. Even the Devs have a problem with it, which is exactly why we're seeing an update that changes this.
There is no planning for RNG. I'm not sure how you can realistically expect to have that kind of statement taken seriously or reasonably responded to. You cannot plan for random occurrences. Period. Generating more attacks does not guarantee more land. They statistically have the same chance of landing as any other attack. When you add to that the fact that most teams run the same exact high speed assist toons, you can't get much more attackier (yup made-up word) than that.
Phasma does not generate enough extra damage to outweigh a higher dodge rate that also results in offense up. That means damage is not only lost by your team, extra damage is gained by the opposing team.
Regardless, I congratulate you on your success with Phasma (not sarcasm). The point was never about winning or losing. Once again, you can win with Ewok Scout as lead. But she is not a counter to RNG. She cannot be a counter to RNG. You have been arguing all the wrong points. I've repeatedly said, and for some reason you've completely ignored it and continued to argue irrelevant points, RNG should and will always have a place. But having it play too much of a role is bad for the game. We're at that point with dodge.
I changed to a Dooku lead and actually managed to force my way back into top 100.
Come at me haters.
I changed to a dooku lead did my 5 arena fights this morning finished at #76. Just logged on before coming to the forums and now I'm at #150. Like I said before the complainers need to gear up, level up, star up or just shut up.
All these post of people complaining about dooku must really have undergeared, 4*, worthless squad combinations cause I'm just not seeing it. I can easily go up the ranks and easily go down...this happened today.
What team do you run? Besides dooku?
Qgj(L),Lumi,Daka,Sid, depending on the team I'm facing I also use Baris.
I bet if you get a high dps character and added in place of Luminara it would help, keeping dooku at lead for your last fight... QGJ lead on offense.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
I'm curious; why are your statements or advice so much more absolute than anyone else's. I find it "unbelievable" that you found/find nothing wrong with the speed mechanic. Even the Devs have a problem with it, which is exactly why we're seeing an update that changes this.
There is no planning for RNG. I'm not sure how you can realistically expect to have that kind of statement taken seriously or reasonably responded to. You cannot plan for random occurrences. Period. Generating more attacks does not guarantee more land. They statistically have the same chance of landing as any other attack. When you add to that the fact that most teams run the same exact high speed assist toons, you can't get much more attackier (yup made-up word) than that.
I congratulate you on your success with Phasma (not sarcasm). The point was never about winning or losing. Once again, you can win with Ewok Scout as lead. But she is not a counter to RNG. She cannot be a counter to RNG. You have been arguing all the wrong points. I've repeatedly said l, and for some reason you've completely ignored it and continued to argue irrelevant points, RNG should and will always have a place. But having it play too much of a role is bad for the game. We're at that point with dodge.
My advice to use Phasma to generate more attacks to combat a squad that dodges a lot is stastically sound (binomial distribution.) You can plan to combat randomness, that isn't the same as predicting it, which you are correct in saying can't happen.
I find there to be nothing wrong with the speed mechanic because it doesn't dictate as much as people claim. It is easily worked around if you accept it and want to work around it. The brokenness of it would be evident if truly nothing else could work. That's not true.
My advice seems to carry more weight to me because I explain my reasoning with evidence. Making opinionated statements like "RNG plays too large of a role" without any substantial evidence doesn't hold as much weight.
You can get more attackier than two high speed assist guys. Get to manipulating the turn meter, it can be ridiculous.
Good game balance should reward tactics and counters- not a flat rate RNG factor that is always true. You either get lucky or you don't. This is a bad mechanic. There is no planning. Phasma or not. You are just equipping RNG to fight RNG, it's the same as Dooku vrs. Dooku. Other setups can be planned around and tactics enter the fray. "hopeing and praying" isn't a tactic- that's fun, anyway.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
I'm curious; why are your statements or advice so much more absolute than anyone else's. I find it "unbelievable" that you found/find nothing wrong with the speed mechanic. Even the Devs have a problem with it, which is exactly why we're seeing an update that changes this.
There is no planning for RNG. I'm not sure how you can realistically expect to have that kind of statement taken seriously or reasonably responded to. You cannot plan for random occurrences. Period. Generating more attacks does not guarantee more land. They statistically have the same chance of landing as any other attack. When you add to that the fact that most teams run the same exact high speed assist toons, you can't get much more attackier (yup made-up word) than that.
I congratulate you on your success with Phasma (not sarcasm). The point was never about winning or losing. Once again, you can win with Ewok Scout as lead. But she is not a counter to RNG. She cannot be a counter to RNG. You have been arguing all the wrong points. I've repeatedly said l, and for some reason you've completely ignored it and continued to argue irrelevant points, RNG should and will always have a place. But having it play too much of a role is bad for the game. We're at that point with dodge.
My advice to use Phasma to generate more attacks to combat a squad that dodges a lot is stastically sound (binomial distribution.) You can plan to combat randomness, that isn't the same as predicting it, which you are correct in saying can't happen.
I find there to be nothing wrong with the speed mechanic because it doesn't dictate as much as people claim. It is easily worked around if you accept it and want to work around it. The brokenness of it would be evident if truly nothing else could work. That's not true.
My advice seems to carry more weight to me because I explain my reasoning with evidence. Making opinionated statements like "RNG plays too large of a role" without any substantial evidence doesn't hold as much weight.
You can get more attackier than two high speed assist guys. Get to manipulating the turn meter, it can be ridiculous.
Thanks for the congratulations.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. As I said above the extra attacks granted by Phasma don't out weigh the higher chance of loss of your damage and the subsequent increase in damage received. I also cannot agree that it combats RNG. In fact I think it plays into RNG's metaphorical hands.
Also, if you were to ask someone like @cosmicturtle333 how the speed meta has impacted the game and his ability to run a nightsister or resistance team, or people who would like to run Maul, I think you'd get drastically different responses.
Lol @ adjust, Im not saying nerf Dooku lead, but this is silly to say
There is no counter to dodge currently, counting on extra attacks of Phasma will just give more offense up from more dodges
There is no counter to when I go QGJ asisst hit first, followed by Geo assist hit, that's 4 attacks on Rey who has bad health to begin with and she dodges 3 of the hits, gains offense up and then 1 shots QGJ, game over
That's what its like playing Dooku leads, it's just random , the next match they might not dodge at all until 3 characters are gone
I believe Teebo's "unavoidable" attack still gets dodged by Dooku teams
This is basically a repeats of something I said in another thread. Dooku isn't the problem. Dodge is. Regardless of whether or not the actual math behind dodge is working correctly in game. Dodge is way too potent. It's strips away what little skill is involved in this game due to the ridiculously high reliance on RNG. It just so happens that Dooku's leader ability has the best dodge synergy right now since it grants offense up in a meta where offense/damage is dominant.
While the issue with dodge isn't as game breaking as the Poe coin flip, I personally find it to be far less fun. If I lost the Poe coin flip, and subsequently the match, all I could do was shrug my shoulders and try again. Dodge is far more heavily dependent on RNG and it's as much garbage as the Poe coin flip. Dodge should absolutely have a place. But, it should never be universally as effective across classes as it is for how potent it is. Instead you should be required to form cohesive squads of the same class (i.e. Jedi, scoundrels, etc) to benefit from the full effect.
You're saying Poe - admittedly a coin flip, is as pure RNG as it gets and requires zero skill - was better than this dodge RNG that can skew a result one way, but is far from a 50/50 coin flip thing? Yet the very next sentence have an issue with how heavy the RNG for Dooku is. Can you maybe explain this better as I'm confused here?
I'm starting to think some are just not well prepared for this new class of skill because it's much less of a RNG issue than Poe and much less dull than the pure speed meta because the battles are not as scripted.
We need to have more than one viable leader skill in the game. Speed leaders are still good even vs. Dooku. Jinn speed leaders are still finishing #1 on my server despite the Dooku presence. Defense is getting a re-work soon too.
Every modest meta shift always creates a panic. He's been fixed for how long? How many combinations has everyone really tried vs. the Dooku teams to thoroughly say it's broken?
@Pilot has posted videos of Ewoks beating Dooku teams. Of Rex-led tusken / Clone teams beating Dooku. We know the Jinn speed teams can still defeat Dooku led teams - I see it on my server every day. I know tanks with a Dooku lead can beat Dooku speed teams. I agree the dodges when they go crazy and hit at bad times are VERY frustrating for a moment, but the monotony of predictable outcomes in battle is worse in my view.
Don't get me wrong, I've since seen the light and switched to a Dooku lead. I benefit from the current state of things. I have no problem regularly finishing top three. This has nothing to do with losing. The problem I have with dodge, the same as with Poe is the further removal of what little skill this game has in favor of RNG. Dodge lead, specifically Dooku because of offense up, are currently the best defense in the game purely because of RNG.
I'm curious why you think things are less RNG oriented now than before. I'm also curious how one can prepare for this new class of skill, as you've coined it. Dodge is 100% based on RNG. I don't see how anyone can qualify that statement.
The speed/damage meta hasn't really changed. All that's happening is that those same toons are being protected by ridiculous RNG associated with dodge. You play exactly the same as before all this but pray that RNGezus favors you.
by not being prepared - and that wasn't specifically at you as I don't know you're roster - but I meant if you didn't have options to face the evade RNG and still have a decent chance to win. One example would be if you didn't have Dooku as an option yourself. Or...if you didn't have a well developed RG that can make up for bad RNG by sustaining the team longer - especially with a healer or a rez toon. Or...if you didn't have any beefier toons that you can run with Dooku leader and were chained to the speed / cannon build. I find the tankier damage dealers + offense up to be quite potent vs. the Reys / GSs out there. Savage Opress for example. Or...maybe someone had Jedi heavy team and couldn't switch out and had troubles with offense up Dooku dodging, especially paired with Sid's dodge. Or...maybe someone doesn't have Yoda and can't do the foresight push to all allies tactic to swing the evade battle in their favor. So by prepared I meant not building a diverse roster that permits flexibility as unexpected meta shifts take hold.
RNG is lower now than when Poe was a coin flip. This isn't a coin flip at all. I'm not winning at a 50% rate. Is the RNG up vs. the pure speed meta we just left - yes it is. My point was that the RNG was way too low in that meta as the battles were pretty scripted and boring.
Regarding speed meta - sure it's changed. It's still effective, but I see guys running droid teams with Poggle again. It's opened up with meta back from what I can tell. Tanks are in. Droids are in. The ability of the speed team is lessened because the chance of early OHKO is reduced. That favors other builds types vs. what we just left. Speed still good for sure, but it's been brought back to the pack.
@Telaan
In the arena what % of matches would you estimate you currently lose vs Dooku(L) teams?
I don't keep track. It's not often. I can't remember the last time I finished outside the top 3. I made it very clear my beef isn't about winning or losing. It's about the implementation of a mechanic that results in even more loss of what little skill is involved in this game.
Changes like what they did to RG are great and healthy for the game. It adds a new layer of strategy that doesn't allow you to just nuke one toon after the other. RG interrupts the flow of a match and requires at least a little thought into the use of specials.
The current incarnation of dodge is dummy proof. Throw any of the fast, heavy hitting toons we all already use behind him and boom....they're even better than before.
Where I could get behind the potency of dodge in its current form is if it was restricted, in it's full amount, to a specific class (i.e. Jedi).
Don't you think it requires a higher level of skill to sustain a good winning percentage when RNG variance is high compared to not? There's no way that winning in higher RNG state = less skill. If you can still win when RNG hits you in the face with bad variance, that's a huge demonstration of skill in your team setup and also in game tactical decisions. You can't be arguing that more skill was required when battles were easily predictable. I disagree that more RNG necessarily reduces skill required to win.
You can't make a claim that winning now is just RNG and less about skill and then at the same time say that you're winning at a high rate still. So what do you call your wins when RNG goes really bad against you? When RNG is not in your favor? Can't be luck. Luck's against you. Has to be skill no?
So 15% dodge from dooku are op and the other dodge leaders like luminara with 13% are fine?
Allies dodging with Lumi leader don't get offense up. That's a HUGE difference...especially in the DPS meta.
Allies don't dodge as much with Lumni as they do with Lumni even Jedis.. It's not just the offense to buff at all. Either way. I disagree with everyone who wants the new Dooku evasion nerfed. I haven't even used it yet but I'm enjoying it. Evasion is a mechanic that is so easily either worthless or OP.. I always understood this. The thing is I'm still killing it with my meta speed team although I do drop faster than before
@Telaan
In the arena what % of matches would you estimate you currently lose vs Dooku(L) teams?
I don't keep track. It's not often. I can't remember the last time I finished outside the top 3. I made it very clear my beef isn't about winning or losing. It's about the implementation of a mechanic that results in even more loss of what little skill is involved in this game.
Changes like what they did to RG are great and healthy for the game. It adds a new layer of strategy that doesn't allow you to just nuke one toon after the other. RG interrupts the flow of a match and requires at least a little thought into the use of specials.
The current incarnation of dodge is dummy proof. Throw any of the fast, heavy hitting toons we all already use behind him and boom....they're even better than before.
Where I could get behind the potency of dodge in its current form is if it was restricted, in it's full amount, to a specific class (i.e. Jedi).
Don't you think it requires a higher level of skill to sustain a good winning percentage when RNG variance is high compared to not? There's no way that winning in higher RNG state = less skill. If you can still win when RNG hits you in the face with bad variance, that's a huge demonstration of skill in your team setup and also in game tactical decisions. You can't be arguing that more skill was required when battles were easily predictable. I disagree that more RNG necessarily reduces skill required to win.
You can't make a claim that winning now is just RNG and less about skill and then at the same time say that you're winning at a high rate still. So what do you call your wins when RNG goes really bad against you? When RNG is not in your favor? Can't be luck. Luck's against you. Has to be skill no?
I don't see how you can honestly believe winning with more RNG equates to more skill. It could just just as easily mean the dice rolled in your favor more often. It's like being good at playing the card game War. Yea, you can win, but is that really skill? Did you believe the same when Poe RNG decided the match? Again, I'm not saying that I think dodge is as game breaking as Poe was; but I am saying that once again RNG has been allowed to play to much of a role in matches.
I am for an appropriate amount of RNG. There absolutely should be variance and randomness that can turn the direction of a match. Not every single variable should be accountable. The amount that RNG should be a factor is obviously a matter of debate. We may not agree, and that's totally understandable, but I'll never understand how people can want RNG to play a major role in determining outcomes.
@Telaan
In the arena what % of matches would you estimate you currently lose vs Dooku(L) teams?
I don't keep track. It's not often. I can't remember the last time I finished outside the top 3. I made it very clear my beef isn't about winning or losing. It's about the implementation of a mechanic that results in even more loss of what little skill is involved in this game.
Changes like what they did to RG are great and healthy for the game. It adds a new layer of strategy that doesn't allow you to just nuke one toon after the other. RG interrupts the flow of a match and requires at least a little thought into the use of specials.
The current incarnation of dodge is dummy proof. Throw any of the fast, heavy hitting toons we all already use behind him and boom....they're even better than before.
Where I could get behind the potency of dodge in its current form is if it was restricted, in it's full amount, to a specific class (i.e. Jedi).
Don't you think it requires a higher level of skill to sustain a good winning percentage when RNG variance is high compared to not? There's no way that winning in higher RNG state = less skill. If you can still win when RNG hits you in the face with bad variance, that's a huge demonstration of skill in your team setup and also in game tactical decisions. You can't be arguing that more skill was required when battles were easily predictable. I disagree that more RNG necessarily reduces skill required to win.
You can't make a claim that winning now is just RNG and less about skill and then at the same time say that you're winning at a high rate still. So what do you call your wins when RNG goes really bad against you? When RNG is not in your favor? Can't be luck. Luck's against you. Has to be skill no?
I don't see how you can honestly believe winning with more RNG equates to more skill. It could just just as easily mean the dice rolled in your favor more often. It's like being good at playing the card game War. Yea, you can win, but is that really skill? Did you believe the same when Poe RNG decided the match? Again, I'm not saying that I think dodge is as game breaking as Poe was; but I am saying that once again RNG has been allowed to play to much of a role in matches.
I am for an appropriate amount of RNG. There absolutely should be variance and randomness that can turn the direction of a match. Not every single variable should be accountable. The amount that RNG should be a factor is obviously a matter of debate. We may not agree, and that's totally understandable, but I'll never understand how people can want RNG to play a major role in determining outcomes.
No - when RNG is in your favor - less skill needed. But assuming a normal distribution of RNG over the course of many matches, there will be a notable portion of the time when RNG is against you when facing Dooku leader. When RNG is low in terms of it's variance and impact - it's less frequnetly against you because it's just neutral mostly. The RNG impact is modest. You're saying though you still win a high % of the time. For that to be correct, that means you're winning in matches when RNG goes badly against you. When that happens (RNG going against you), which will happen more now than before, that has to indicate skill / preparation on your part. So maintaining a high winning % in an environment of high RNG volatility definitely indicates more skill / preparation than winning in battles that are scripted and essentially the same from day to day.
I'm another cryer. Lost a key arena battle today when I had a 4 vs 2 situation facing just Dooku (lead) and Sidious. Between all the dodging and incessant bonus attacks, it was an infuriating loss.
Dooku leader gets ridiculous when combined with Royal Guard. The red dude already has no cd on his taunt procs and he is so good that he can even taunt while stunned. But under Dooku lead he gets twice more dodge than with any other evasion leader and can even deal nice damage with offence up procs added to his 80% stun chance. Anakin stands no chances to apply a taunt block on RG. KGJ, Teebo, Mace dispel have a too high fail rate against this pair to be reliable as RG taunt counter. And since Dooku leader is also bugged and triggers on resist and deflect, you only add more chances to trigger offence up on RG by trying to stun or dispel him. With Dooku and RG as a team base, you just have to fill up with assist or heavy hitting characters and you will give hell to anyone that does not have Dooku and RG in their team in both attack and defence. So, if this is the shape of things to come in arena and All GW fights this game is going to be anything but fun.
It's only over powered when GS, Rey and QGJ dodge and then one shot people. If they were lowered in damage (which supposedly they will.... which I seriously doubt) then this would be balanced. Dooku lead teams without them are cake. Teams with those three plus RG or daka are pretty tough.
Replies
But this thread isnt about offense up. Its about people crying that they cant hit a dooku lead team. And those 2% more dodge on dooku then on lumi cat make that much of a difference.
I took 3 dooku teams on in the arena just to take another look at it. Didnt experienced an unusual high amount of dodges. A lumi dodged 4 attacks in a row. That **** and almost lost me the game but thats rng and statisticly not very unusual.
Maybe i will get past my dooku hate and unlock him myself just to try out that "unhittable" force ... But just from fighting him i cannot see him beeing op just because of dodges.
Oh, wow. Let's get back to my real point: Phasma is a good counter to Dooku. I brought up all my experience simply to let people who may want to consider my advice know that it wasn't made without reason. It appears that since I'm not bending to your point of view that my advice is rubbish. To be blunt, you need to stop with the nonsense you are spreading on this particular thread about how this game is controlled by RNG. Luck is most certainly involved but you insist on claiming that it is the most influential aspect of these fights against Dooku because you aren't doing anything different in your fights!
Your point is simply now that Dooku boosts dodging more luck is involved....uh, yes? That doesn't make the entire arena about luck, just because there isn't a stat that counters dodge rate. There are strategies that counter it. I shared one possible strategy. You and at least one other have disagreed using false reasoning. I have tried to shed light to why your reasoning is skewed with my experience and am now responding to a post telling me I am a Phasma fanboy.
Unbelievable.
BTW, dominating a leader board on this defenseless game is simply a matter of popular opinion and not strength of squad.
False reasoning? lol? Just because of your own bias on the subject from your singular experience with RNG vrs Dooku teams?
"Unbelievable".
And yes, the Offense up needs to enter the equation. It's what sets it apart into the "ridiculous" category. We should not be double penalized for whiffing an attack (or three) and having the team get even stronger. It compounds the already ridiculous DPS meta.
This is really the only part of your post worth responding to at this point. The rest is just nonsense. There are only so many strategies to beating the same cookie cutter teams. Your advice is not advice. You might as well have told people to run Ewok Scout as a leader. "Unbelievable".
I'm thoroughly amused by this quoted part of your reply though. You don't think that many of the top players don't spend hours theory crafting and experimenting with various squads on both offense and defense? You don't think that just maybe the reason Dooku is so prevalent on the boards is because he has the best chance of successfully defending due to RNG? Nah you're right, he just happens to be the single most popular toon in the game, just like QGJ before him.
RNG is the single biggest factor in this game. From loot to combat. Adding more RNG into the game is utterly ridiculous. Thinking Phasma is the counter to RNG is.....
I changed to a dooku lead did my 5 arena fights this morning finished at #76. Just logged on before coming to the forums and now I'm at #150. Like I said before the complainers need to gear up, level up, star up or just shut up.
All these post of people complaining about dooku must really have undergeared, 4*, worthless squad combinations cause I'm just not seeing it. I can easily go up the ranks and easily go down...this happened today. Either that's their problem or they are just exaggerating and lying.
What team do you run? Besides dooku?
I hope you are truly smart enough to understand that my daily use of Phasma as my lead isn't a "singular" experience. It's multiple fights on multiple days. Biased would be if I had a particular love of Phasma as accused, though I do not. What you are claiming is my "bias" is my experience which is necessary to draw conclusions.
I do not refute that RNG is involved, I didn't fail to acknowledge it's effects in any of my posts. Knowing there is a chance to miss means planning on making more attacks to ensure one lands. Randomness has a necessary place in games. Otherwise you sit down and know the outcome in advance. Your claims that RNG are dominating the game are ridiculous. Your attempts to try and prove that anything I'm saying is unreasonable is ridiculous. The statement that a dodge RNG mechanic is crossing the line when other RNG mechanics (Phasma's for example) are rubbish is ridiculous.
There is nothing broken about Dooku's dodge mechanic. There is nothing broken about the speed mechanics. There is, however, a massive amount of misinformation and herd-following that has rendered any advice you can get from this forum rather broken.
Would all this go away if I had a QGJ led team that I never stopped using, constantly play in the same manner, suddenly realized in the arena that characters dodge my attacks and I can't end fights the same way I have been for weeks if not months, and then came to this thread not to disagree but to say that it is horrible that so much luck is involved in fights now?
RNG may decide how long the fight will last, but I would totally disagree on that RNG decides who will win the fight.
Qgj(L),Lumi,Daka,Sid, depending on the team I'm facing I also use Baris.
I'm curious; why are your statements or advice so much more absolute than anyone else's. I find it "unbelievable" that you found/find nothing wrong with the speed mechanic. Even the Devs have a problem with it, which is exactly why we're seeing an update that changes this.
There is no planning for RNG. I'm not sure how you can realistically expect to have that kind of statement taken seriously or reasonably responded to. You cannot plan for random occurrences. Period. Generating more attacks does not guarantee more land. They statistically have the same chance of landing as any other attack. When you add to that the fact that most teams run the same exact high speed assist toons, you can't get much more attackier (yup made-up word) than that.
Phasma does not generate enough extra damage to outweigh a higher dodge rate that also results in offense up. That means damage is not only lost by your team, extra damage is gained by the opposing team.
Regardless, I congratulate you on your success with Phasma (not sarcasm). The point was never about winning or losing. Once again, you can win with Ewok Scout as lead. But she is not a counter to RNG. She cannot be a counter to RNG. You have been arguing all the wrong points. I've repeatedly said, and for some reason you've completely ignored it and continued to argue irrelevant points, RNG should and will always have a place. But having it play too much of a role is bad for the game. We're at that point with dodge.
I bet if you get a high dps character and added in place of Luminara it would help, keeping dooku at lead for your last fight... QGJ lead on offense.
My advice to use Phasma to generate more attacks to combat a squad that dodges a lot is stastically sound (binomial distribution.) You can plan to combat randomness, that isn't the same as predicting it, which you are correct in saying can't happen.
I find there to be nothing wrong with the speed mechanic because it doesn't dictate as much as people claim. It is easily worked around if you accept it and want to work around it. The brokenness of it would be evident if truly nothing else could work. That's not true.
My advice seems to carry more weight to me because I explain my reasoning with evidence. Making opinionated statements like "RNG plays too large of a role" without any substantial evidence doesn't hold as much weight.
You can get more attackier than two high speed assist guys. Get to manipulating the turn meter, it can be ridiculous.
Thanks for the congratulations.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. As I said above the extra attacks granted by Phasma don't out weigh the higher chance of loss of your damage and the subsequent increase in damage received. I also cannot agree that it combats RNG. In fact I think it plays into RNG's metaphorical hands.
Also, if you were to ask someone like @cosmicturtle333 how the speed meta has impacted the game and his ability to run a nightsister or resistance team, or people who would like to run Maul, I think you'd get drastically different responses.
There is no counter to dodge currently, counting on extra attacks of Phasma will just give more offense up from more dodges
There is no counter to when I go QGJ asisst hit first, followed by Geo assist hit, that's 4 attacks on Rey who has bad health to begin with and she dodges 3 of the hits, gains offense up and then 1 shots QGJ, game over
That's what its like playing Dooku leads, it's just random , the next match they might not dodge at all until 3 characters are gone
I believe Teebo's "unavoidable" attack still gets dodged by Dooku teams
Poe's expose also triggers offense up
Bawhaha.... Lol... Priceless.
Don't miss!
by not being prepared - and that wasn't specifically at you as I don't know you're roster - but I meant if you didn't have options to face the evade RNG and still have a decent chance to win. One example would be if you didn't have Dooku as an option yourself. Or...if you didn't have a well developed RG that can make up for bad RNG by sustaining the team longer - especially with a healer or a rez toon. Or...if you didn't have any beefier toons that you can run with Dooku leader and were chained to the speed / cannon build. I find the tankier damage dealers + offense up to be quite potent vs. the Reys / GSs out there. Savage Opress for example. Or...maybe someone had Jedi heavy team and couldn't switch out and had troubles with offense up Dooku dodging, especially paired with Sid's dodge. Or...maybe someone doesn't have Yoda and can't do the foresight push to all allies tactic to swing the evade battle in their favor. So by prepared I meant not building a diverse roster that permits flexibility as unexpected meta shifts take hold.
RNG is lower now than when Poe was a coin flip. This isn't a coin flip at all. I'm not winning at a 50% rate. Is the RNG up vs. the pure speed meta we just left - yes it is. My point was that the RNG was way too low in that meta as the battles were pretty scripted and boring.
Regarding speed meta - sure it's changed. It's still effective, but I see guys running droid teams with Poggle again. It's opened up with meta back from what I can tell. Tanks are in. Droids are in. The ability of the speed team is lessened because the chance of early OHKO is reduced. That favors other builds types vs. what we just left. Speed still good for sure, but it's been brought back to the pack.
Don't you think it requires a higher level of skill to sustain a good winning percentage when RNG variance is high compared to not? There's no way that winning in higher RNG state = less skill. If you can still win when RNG hits you in the face with bad variance, that's a huge demonstration of skill in your team setup and also in game tactical decisions. You can't be arguing that more skill was required when battles were easily predictable. I disagree that more RNG necessarily reduces skill required to win.
You can't make a claim that winning now is just RNG and less about skill and then at the same time say that you're winning at a high rate still. So what do you call your wins when RNG goes really bad against you? When RNG is not in your favor? Can't be luck. Luck's against you. Has to be skill no?
Allies don't dodge as much with Lumni as they do with Lumni even Jedis.. It's not just the offense to buff at all. Either way. I disagree with everyone who wants the new Dooku evasion nerfed. I haven't even used it yet but I'm enjoying it. Evasion is a mechanic that is so easily either worthless or OP.. I always understood this. The thing is I'm still killing it with my meta speed team although I do drop faster than before
NO!!!! She's one of my favorite AOE toons.
No kidding Johnny, why would anyone say she is useless besides those who read what others say about the meta. Totally uninformed and inexperienced
I don't see how you can honestly believe winning with more RNG equates to more skill. It could just just as easily mean the dice rolled in your favor more often. It's like being good at playing the card game War. Yea, you can win, but is that really skill? Did you believe the same when Poe RNG decided the match? Again, I'm not saying that I think dodge is as game breaking as Poe was; but I am saying that once again RNG has been allowed to play to much of a role in matches.
I am for an appropriate amount of RNG. There absolutely should be variance and randomness that can turn the direction of a match. Not every single variable should be accountable. The amount that RNG should be a factor is obviously a matter of debate. We may not agree, and that's totally understandable, but I'll never understand how people can want RNG to play a major role in determining outcomes.
No - when RNG is in your favor - less skill needed. But assuming a normal distribution of RNG over the course of many matches, there will be a notable portion of the time when RNG is against you when facing Dooku leader. When RNG is low in terms of it's variance and impact - it's less frequnetly against you because it's just neutral mostly. The RNG impact is modest. You're saying though you still win a high % of the time. For that to be correct, that means you're winning in matches when RNG goes badly against you. When that happens (RNG going against you), which will happen more now than before, that has to indicate skill / preparation on your part. So maintaining a high winning % in an environment of high RNG volatility definitely indicates more skill / preparation than winning in battles that are scripted and essentially the same from day to day.