GL Luke vs SLK - Absolutely Crazy

2Next

Replies

  • scuba
    12477 posts Member
    Borat wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Borat wrote: »
    Again, the post is about diversity in arena, teams countering GLs both new and old, some with ease, not about players leaving the game. No kidding people leave and come for various reasons, this being one of them but not the point of this post. I should have known better than to mention that part because as usual on this forum, people hyper-focus on one sentence or statement and miraculously ignore the major point of the post, causing the conversation to go way off the rails.

    Diversity is good. the current situation in arena is WAI as i believe, except maybe SLK shouldn't be able to steamroll SEE but ultimate may change that, we shall see, but the new GLs should not just dominate the prior GLs and there should be counters for F2P or those not going for GLs for whatever reason. That was my point to the OP not the **** conversation around why people leave the game as it is an argument that cannot be won as no one has the real data for that. My bad for even saying it, I should have known better than to open that can of worms.

    As decided by whom?
    CG is the only one that can say if that is true or not.
    What does it really matter if it steam rolls it or beats it decently?
    I see this as forcing decisions as more people unlock SEE and get into TW/GAC planning for their rosters

    I said I believe. Not that it is WAI as it it was stated by the devs. read man. I don't think that was intended but it does seem out of sorts with how things have been with the prior 2 GLs. If it is WAI and he is intended to steamroll SEE then fine. But I was just saying it doesn't seem right. But again, my belief, not fact and without ultimate ability, it is hard to say this won't change (or will change).

    IMO that is a problem overall with the Community.
    "The last ones where like this so the new ones should be," tempers flare, arguments break out, People go crazy expecting something now now now (notice the "P" in people not directed at you). Granted some of this is on CG because they cave on stuff I don't think they should and should some times just tell the Players to "Git Gud," however they do have a business to run so I can understand the caving.

    You will never get an agreement from the Player Base as to what they want, what is good for the game as even with the vocal majority there are differences and some don't even know what they want.
    Example 2 people going back and forth if Arena Diversity is a good thing or not.
    We have posts all the time calling for Arena Diversity and when it happens, We get posts about X beating Y and "ruining my investment"
  • Borat
    111 posts Member
    That last line made me laugh. INVESTMENT. anyone who thinks that spending money on a virtual game as an investment needs to take a good look at themselves. I spend on this game, have all 4 GLS but never ever considered money spend on this as an investment. It is nothing more than a quick way to gratification and a small advantage in GAC at best. Arena is always full of counters and should never be expected to have one end all be all team that cannot be beaten no matter how much you spend. Well said
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    Borat wrote: »
    That last line made me laugh. INVESTMENT. anyone who thinks that spending money on a virtual game as an investment needs to take a good look at themselves. I spend on this game, have all 4 GLS but never ever considered money spend on this as an investment. It is nothing more than a quick way to gratification and a small advantage in GAC at best. Arena is always full of counters and should never be expected to have one end all be all team that cannot be beaten no matter how much you spend. Well said

    Investment into a game comes from other sources, not only money. That terms being taken to only mean money is not correct ever when it comes to a game, especially one that has been around this long.
  • scuba
    12477 posts Member
    Borat wrote: »
    That last line made me laugh. INVESTMENT. anyone who thinks that spending money on a virtual game as an investment needs to take a good look at themselves. I spend on this game, have all 4 GLS but never ever considered money spend on this as an investment. It is nothing more than a quick way to gratification and a small advantage in GAC at best. Arena is always full of counters and should never be expected to have one end all be all team that cannot be beaten no matter how much you spend. Well said

    There is a reason it is in "", cause i get a laugh when I hear that also. It is a game, and if you can't deal with that "investment" going away (be it money, time or any thing else) in 30 days (I think that is what is stated as the min sunset announcement for the game) then you may want to "invest" elsewhere
  • Borat
    111 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Borat wrote: »
    That last line made me laugh. INVESTMENT. anyone who thinks that spending money on a virtual game as an investment needs to take a good look at themselves. I spend on this game, have all 4 GLS but never ever considered money spend on this as an investment. It is nothing more than a quick way to gratification and a small advantage in GAC at best. Arena is always full of counters and should never be expected to have one end all be all team that cannot be beaten no matter how much you spend. Well said

    Investment into a game comes from other sources, not only money. That terms being taken to only mean money is not correct ever when it comes to a game, especially one that has been around this long.

    Point taken however I wonder how many of those who make this argument are referring to sources other than money.
  • scuba
    12477 posts Member
    Borat wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Borat wrote: »
    That last line made me laugh. INVESTMENT. anyone who thinks that spending money on a virtual game as an investment needs to take a good look at themselves. I spend on this game, have all 4 GLS but never ever considered money spend on this as an investment. It is nothing more than a quick way to gratification and a small advantage in GAC at best. Arena is always full of counters and should never be expected to have one end all be all team that cannot be beaten no matter how much you spend. Well said

    Investment into a game comes from other sources, not only money. That terms being taken to only mean money is not correct ever when it comes to a game, especially one that has been around this long.

    Point taken however I wonder how many of those who make this argument are referring to sources other than money.

    Many. I have read many arguments about f2p investment into the game.
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    Borat wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Borat wrote: »
    That last line made me laugh. INVESTMENT. anyone who thinks that spending money on a virtual game as an investment needs to take a good look at themselves. I spend on this game, have all 4 GLS but never ever considered money spend on this as an investment. It is nothing more than a quick way to gratification and a small advantage in GAC at best. Arena is always full of counters and should never be expected to have one end all be all team that cannot be beaten no matter how much you spend. Well said

    Investment into a game comes from other sources, not only money. That terms being taken to only mean money is not correct ever when it comes to a game, especially one that has been around this long.

    Point taken however I wonder how many of those who make this argument are referring to sources other than money.

    More often than not its time that is being referenced, at least from what I have seen.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Borat wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Borat wrote: »
    That last line made me laugh. INVESTMENT. anyone who thinks that spending money on a virtual game as an investment needs to take a good look at themselves. I spend on this game, have all 4 GLS but never ever considered money spend on this as an investment. It is nothing more than a quick way to gratification and a small advantage in GAC at best. Arena is always full of counters and should never be expected to have one end all be all team that cannot be beaten no matter how much you spend. Well said

    Investment into a game comes from other sources, not only money. That terms being taken to only mean money is not correct ever when it comes to a game, especially one that has been around this long.

    Point taken however I wonder how many of those who make this argument are referring to sources other than money.

    More often than not its time that is being referenced, at least from what I have seen.

    This. Time >>>>> Money
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • People still complaining about counters when DR from 2018 can still beat any team in the game.
  • nabokovfan
    504 posts Member
    edited October 15
    @CG_Doja_Fett any chance we can get some help with this? @Kyno understands and stated pretty clearly the concern.

    I had another battle today, went down to luke vs. SLK. I had 100% ult and was charged high in terms of mastery boost. I used all 3 attacks with the middle ability and it did absolutely nothing (maybe 1-2 blocks of damage on JML. I did get the win, but again I think when we are talking apples to apples (ult vs ult) there is a big discrepancy and I would love to hear the thought behind this design interaction.

    I am not going to sit here and say in any way luke should be bad or that SLK or Rey should be able to fight him, I am referring to the tier of character, investment, and the fact that this interaction feels a whole lot like Geos vs. jawas or something.
  • I encountered my first non-ult JML today with my non-ult Rey.
    To put it quite simply, despite the JML team having it's actual optimal team (gas/jkl/jkr) and my rey team still being RH duo/JTR with the only "optimal" char being GK, I don't think that JML lived long enough to even be ABLE to ult, even if he had it.

    Whirlwind just completely destroys JML, and his higher damage output on his team actually ends up working against him. As per usual, Rey's ult may actually hinder her performance against JML, rather than improve it - Particularly AI controlled. (seriously, that's one thing in particular that needs to be fixed. All Rey's ult really does under AI most of the time is just allow her to time out more effectively... yet it makes Ult rey on defense actually easier to mirror match than non-ult rey because it effectively does nothing other than stall)

    Kylo beats SEE and loses to JML.
    Rey beats JML and loses to SEE.
    Rey and Kylo are team comp and offense/defense based. Kylo usually has a much higher win rate when attacking a Rey team than Rey does against a Kylo team, but it's "fairly" even.

    The real issue is the fact JML/SEE are both countered by ridiculously "cheap" teams comparatively (SEE being countered by your standard sith empire lineup? really? And that JML palp/triumvirate counter is also way more common and easier to acquire than either "consistent" Rey/Kylo counter) and that due to JML's Jedi tag, he has an absolutely absurd amount of possible leads that end up with him being able to well, beat pretty much every team that's designed to counter him. Most notably the Bastilla lead countering SEE.
    I honestly don't know WHAT could fix JML being able to counter literally everything, because he obviously has to keep his Jedi tag, but... it IS the one thing that really sticks out about the new GLs. At best you could maybe see some kind of palp or traya-lead SEE team able to perform better than a SEE-lead against some stuff, but really, I don't think any of the other 3 GLs will ever see the kind of utility that we're seeing from JML currently, without obviously giving Rey the same exact thing that causes Luke to have that utility, which is a Jedi tag. (imagine bastilla lead and lifeblood, lol. Timeouts for days.)

    Basically, just because YOUR GL is countered by a new GL, doesn't really mean the new GL is "unbalanced". It just means that Kylo's no longer the absolutely uncontested BEST character/team in the game. Which is... perfectly fine.
    These new GLs actually made me want to get Kylo MORE than if they didn't exist, if we're being honest.
    His value wasn't "lowered" in any way, because it was still easy enough to counter Kylo with either Rey or a Kylo mirror match, it just, as it still is, wasn't remotely worth it other than in arena. GL vs GL matches should usually be avoided, even if they ARE free wins.

    And this shouldn't affect your ability to place in arena, unless you're both in one insane whale shard AND on bad terms with your shard/shard chat. ...which, simply put, would still likely prevent you from placing well even without the new GLs, anyway.
  • Artumas wrote: »
    Basically, just because YOUR GL is countered by a new GL, doesn't really mean the new GL is "unbalanced". It just means that Kylo's no longer the absolutely uncontested BEST character/team in the game. Which is... perfectly fine.

    These new GLs actually made me want to get Kylo MORE than if they didn't exist, if we're being honest.
    His value wasn't "lowered" in any way, because it was still easy enough to counter Kylo with either Rey or a Kylo mirror match, it just, as it still is, wasn't remotely worth it other than in arena. GL vs GL matches should usually be avoided, even if they ARE free wins.

    And this shouldn't affect your ability to place in arena, unless you're both in one insane whale shard AND on bad terms with your shard/shard chat. ...which, simply put, would still likely prevent you from placing well even without the new GLs, anyway.

    I guess to express the issue more succinctly. It is not about my GL being terrible. It is about a GL vs GL being a "set it and hot auto and wait x seconds for it to give you the win". I think I should have a chance to actually compete and there is a massive amount of restrictions on the characters that work with kylo because of his unique. He is restricted to half of the first order for the most part. That being said, most battles generally go fast enough where the damage can be ignored and it's mostly a raid restriction. If we halfed the number, is that a terrible thing, and it would open up some theory crafting?

    Again, my issue is not that kylo loses. My issue is that it feels like a broken, impossible battle and this isn't even a fully.charged character yet. I said from the beginning I want to hear CGs thoughts on it, I want to hear about their perspective and to see what they feel is acceptable in terms of the meta shift and interactions like this.

    What I proposed was a tweak to SLK to give him a chance to fight and was not something to break the game in any way and boosting his power. There are plenty of ways to solve an issue....
  • Have you actually tried Kylo vs JML or just saw a video with no context on mods and quickly jumped to open a thread?

    JML can't auto a decently modded FO team, let alone do it so under half a minute. Yes, in this match up JML has the upper hand, but it's nowhere near as broken as you present it to be.
  • Artumas wrote: »
    Kylo beats SEE and loses to JML.
    Rey beats JML and loses to SEE.
    Rey and Kylo are team comp and offense/defense based. Kylo usually has a much higher win rate when attacking a Rey team than Rey does against a Kylo team, but it's "fairly" even.

    The real issue is the fact JML/SEE are both countered by ridiculously "cheap" teams comparatively (SEE being countered by your standard sith empire lineup? really? And that JML palp/triumvirate counter is also way more common and easier to acquire than either "consistent" Rey/Kylo counter) and that due to JML's Jedi tag, he has an absolutely absurd amount of possible leads that end up with him being able to well, beat pretty much every team that's designed to counter him. Most notably the Bastilla lead countering SEE.
    I honestly don't know WHAT could fix JML being able to counter literally everything, because he obviously has to keep his Jedi tag, but... it IS the one thing that really sticks out about the new GLs. At best you could maybe see some kind of palp or traya-lead SEE team able to perform better than a SEE-lead against some stuff, but really, I don't think any of the other 3 GLs will ever see the kind of utility that we're seeing from JML currently, without obviously giving Rey the same exact thing that causes Luke to have that utility, which is a Jedi tag. (imagine bastilla lead and lifeblood, lol. Timeouts for days.)
    .

    There is also a small problem in your comparison of GL.

    JML and Rey are using the exact same toons to be efficient against the other GL. While SLKR just use Fo and SEE sith empire.

    Not really balanced from this point of view
  • SemiGod
    2084 posts Member
    He solos SEE so it’s fine 😂
  • Straegen
    101 posts Member
    edited October 15
    JML can't auto a decently modded FO team, let alone do it so under half a minute. Yes, in this match up JML has the upper hand, but it's nowhere near as broken as you present it to be.
    Under a JKL lead with Wat-Hoda-GAS, JML autos every SLKR comp we have tried it against including several full R7 FO comps with some built around speed, others offense and still others defense/health. My JML only has 3 zetas and no mastery. By the 3rd round GAS just blows over everyone but SLKR with only Wat dying.

    The team I really struggle against is Rey using a JKR lead with GAS, Hoda, JKL. Everything else is pretty much an auto win but we don't have a good SEE yet.

    The team holds like crap though since DR hard counters, Vader hard counters and CLS hard counters. Lesson is don't make a GL a taunter and not give them some protection from Thrawn.



  • Mirkraag wrote: »
    There is also a small problem in your comparison of GL.

    JML and Rey are using the exact same toons to be efficient against the other GL. While SLKR just use Fo and SEE sith empire.

    Not really balanced from this point of view
    Just gonna point out that regarding SEE, that's not clear yet.

    There's a lot of SEE + SE partially because we're seeing enemy teams with taunts in the leader slot, which invites DR. It's not even clear if SEE is the best leader for this compared to DR lead with SE synergy (lots of ferocity and crit damage).

    Also, FO has an obvious advantage synergy with all of these SLKR+Hux perm-advantage mechanics, while SEE doesn't have such a thing. SEE's sith requirements like Sid and Maul were totally neglected despite a CW era focus and are pretty much dead weight, so it will take some time to see which Sith will work since people with SEE may not have all the other sith geared up yet. Sion actually gets nerfed by SEE's kit, but DN and Traya could be good, for example.

    Lastly, most arena shards will probably heavily lean towards SLKR (especially shards 3 years or younger), and judging by responses here so far, it doesn't look like any sith team can make room for SEE and still beat SLKR since in that matchup SEE is the dead weight.

    tldr: we'll see what team SEE winds up using.
  • Remember that time SLKR owners laughed at Rey users when SLKR got buffed to beyond comparison of Rey?
  • Artumas wrote: »
    I encountered my first non-ult JML today with my non-ult Rey.
    To put it quite simply, despite the JML team having it's actual optimal team (gas/jkl/jkr) and my rey team still being RH duo/JTR with the only "optimal" char being GK, I don't think that JML lived long enough to even be ABLE to ult, even if he had it.

    Whirlwind just completely destroys JML, and his higher damage output on his team actually ends up working against him. As per usual, Rey's ult may actually hinder her performance against JML, rather than improve it - Particularly AI controlled. (seriously, that's one thing in particular that needs to be fixed. All Rey's ult really does under AI most of the time is just allow her to time out more effectively... yet it makes Ult rey on defense actually easier to mirror match than non-ult rey because it effectively does nothing other than stall).

    Whirlwind does nothing against JML (unless you're talking about using Whirlwind against JML's allies, so I assume you faced a JML poorly modded and/or lacking some zetas, including the Galactic Legend one.

    And actually I think Rey's Ult makes her better against JML, it's funny when I use it and with all the damage I start killing the ads until I can slap JML's face with a 600k hit.
  • Have you actually tried Kylo vs JML or just saw a video with no context on mods and quickly jumped to open a thread?

    JML can't auto a decently modded FO team, let alone do it so under half a minute. Yes, in this match up JML has the upper hand, but it's nowhere near as broken as you present it to be.

    Several battles. As mentioned several times.
  • SemiGod wrote: »
    He solos SEE so it’s fine 😂

    Seperate issue, but yes. That needs to be fixed badly.
  • Did anyone else watch the video twice just for the music?
  • Miketo28 wrote: »
    Did anyone else watch the video twice just for the music?

    If by that you meant "muted my browser 5 seconds in", then yes.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • not another cry for a Kylo buff. what part of rock-paper-scissors-spock meta is so difficult to grasp?
  • GJO
    133 posts Member
    Someone label that noise as "music"?

    Goodbye world. we're doomed.

    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Miketo28 wrote: »
    Did anyone else watch the video twice just for the music?

    If by that you meant "muted my browser 5 seconds in", then yes.
    Miketo28 wrote: »
    Did anyone else watch the video twice just for the music?

  • And yet both of the old GLs are currently capable of beating the new ones (especially Rey vs JML lead and SLKR vs SEE). Did anyone expect the old GLs to hold reliably against the new ones?

    Yes.

    But what i really expected with the equal powered comment was that they would be able to hold up win a few and lose a few.

    So for this i see no issue. JmL beating kylo is fine if kylo beats SEE and rey beats JML
  • Nikoms565
    12968 posts Member
    edited October 17
    not another cry for a Kylo buff. what part of rock-paper-scissors-spock meta is so difficult to grasp?

    The problem is that people with only one want that one to be dominant in every aspect of the game. If they only have rock, they want rock to beat the other three in arena, rock to solo HSith, rock to hold for 16 battles in TW, rock to solo day 4 in TB and rock to bestow immortality.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • SEE times out against rey on offense and rey smashes SEE when he is on defense.
    slkr solos SEE
    While SEE can beat JML all you have to do is put Ls bast as lead and spontaneously JML eats SEE teams alive.

    SEE is horrendously weak compared to the other 3.
    His core mechanic doesn't do anything. Who care that he can't be targeted when he does no damage. Its a more anoying to trigger mon motha zeta.

    he can't stun anyone. his deception is a WORSE daze effect. (tm gain block only hits jedi and rebels) and it doesn't block assists. he has NO OTHER DEBUFFS AT ALL. old emperor palp is a better sith lead then SEE.

    prot gain is nice but then you realize that the ENTIRE SITH FACTION RELYS ON HEALTH AND HEALTH RECOVERY.

    his kit screws over the best 2 sith tanks.
    ex linked targets can't crit.. thus malak can't be crit and won't fear targets and taunt
    sion can't revive.

    stealing protection is cool... but doesn't do anything in the long run since most characters rely more on health now days. If he stole mastery or other stats as well then it would be amazing.

    The devs said he had massive detrimental debuffs that would "make targets do things they didn't want to do"... thats a bold face lie.

    And yes I have SEE. hes garbage. worst gl of the 4 by a MASSIVE margin. its not even close. and before anyone says anything about team comps I have tried everything. all my sith are r7, most of my empire (thrawn ect) is r7. I tried wat (useless on defense if malak is there as malak gets tank tech).
  • I'm ok with a rock paper scissors... But SEE is no fun to even play with on offense. His animations are boring. He throws low damaging farts at people. He FEELS weak. He FEELS boring.

    If targets that had deception also had defense down baked into the skill then it would be slightly better. SEE knows their weakness cause he's behind the scenes exploiting them.

    Have his prot drain work against prot up, or drain more then just prot. Or do more then a small crit immune. the -30% dmg doesn't do anything. most LS attacker still hit harder then SEE even with the link on them.
Sign In or Register to comment.