Upcoming Changes To The Pit Challenge Tier [MEGA]

Replies

  • Camper:

    I wasn't specifically addressing you, of course, which is why I addressed the comment to "everyone". But there's actually substantial common ground between us:
    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    Well, sure. And I've said this repeatedly. But there's "harmed" in terms of having your teams not do as well and needing to throw more at the beast and "harmed" meaning the effort entirely fails. Right now I'm guessing that the guilds who now fail to complete the raid who, up until now have been completing the raid, will be few.

    I could be wrong, which is why I've also said we should wait to see how this plays out, but I do expect the number to be small. Before getting too excited over it, I'd rather wait. If the new rules causes some guilds to fail once or twice before getting the hang of the new rules, or before relic'ing up that one more squad per player, well, I don't consider that a big problem. I'm surprised that so many do.
    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes.

    Yep. I spent almost that entire time investing in relic'ing RCT toons (and thus not advancing on JML requirements). Along the way I got together a couple of the most mega-damaging squads people have theorycrafted. But I still have those toons, and they're not bad toons, they just changed the order in which I geared them.

    So I am among the people harmed most, because I spent almost the entire time without a mega squad only to finish a mega squad this week. S*** to be me, I guess. But again, I'm not worried about it. The squad will still do good damage, it's just that what will be considered "good" will change.
    This demands compensation.

    Seriously, by having only just finished my mega-squad and having spent the entire time RCT has been out either finishing up SLKR or working on RCT toons, I am among the people who could reasonably claim the greatest harm from this change. I do not think I deserve compensation.
    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    This is exactly the thing I think we should wait to see. I'm not judging the final difficulty of the raid until we have a chance to attack it a few times.
    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored.

    It appears so. I was among the first demanding better balance and, if anything, the case for leveling rewards has only gotten stronger as they've leveled the contributions, expecting a larger number of people to contribute in a more equal manner (meaning lower standard deviation in damage scores) without smoothing out the extreme swings in rewards is a bad move. We are totally on the same page on this. I might even have expressed this point more strongly.
    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry.

    I'm of the same general mind, although I wouldn't have said it quite so strongly. I think it's bad, but I wouldn't use the word "abusive".

    What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer

    I think they need to start with devour on cooldown. Now that we're expected to use multiple teams to get small scores each, the idea that it's worth it to sacrifice an r5 toon so that I can get 3% is pretty messed up. And it gets worse when you sacrifice another r5 toon for a secondary team to get 1.5%. The sacrifice is worth less with damage capped, and you may find yourself needing to make more of them (depends where your first run ends, of course. Ideally it would end on a devour, but you can't control that).

    The new mechanics practically demand an end to this sacrifice requirement.

  • Ultra
    8432 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    Checked with devs. Here's the breakdown:

    2% Health lost this battle = 20% total stat increase
    4% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% = 60% total stat increase
    6% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% = 120% total stat increase
    8% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% = 200% total stat increase
    10% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% + 100% = 300% total stat increase

    You do realize that while you've effectively nerfed the SLKR solo (which took god mods and crazy rng to accomplish), you've nerfed all the mid level raid teams like Padme, Clones, CLS that used to be able to get 4-6% damage, and they'll now maybe get 1/2 that?

    2% is just a horrible number for the devs to have chosen. They could have made it 5% and accomplished the same goals without making it even harder to beat this thing.

    They are removing one element that made it harder to beat, they were always going to replace that with something that would keep it difficult, they made it (possibly a little)harder, but allowed player to use more than 4-6 teams to beat it.

    5% would have made it easier, because of the lowered additional stats. I'm sure they could have kept playing with the numbers and taken even longer to test this over and over again, but that wouldnt really be a welcome addition to this process.

    Either way they would have brought it to a place where it pushes development.

    Part of the process was designed to keep team order intact, so to bring down top teams meant the others had to be scaled accordingly to preserve investment.

    So 5% thresholds wouldn’t have made that same goal a reality?

    The general discussion around this was that testing at 5% made it easier.

    Ok how about 4%?

    How about 2%?

    how about 1%?
  • @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?
    You’re usually better than this, @MasterSeedy

    P2 is one phase out of 4. One phase.

    Our guild has regularly reached p4 with 10-12 people contributing. 14-15 is the upper end of that range. I’m certain that most other guilds completing this raid routinely will be in a similar position.

    We have 30 SLKR. I think we’ll need pretty much all of them to clear p2 and p3 together now, as opposed to half of them to clear p1-3.

    I have no problem with more of the guild being needed to contribute, and I also have no problem with your “wait and see” message, but I have a bad feeling about this.
  • I also have no problem with your “wait and see” message, but I have a bad feeling about this.

    Fair.
  • Kipps
    43 posts Member
    edited March 7
    2% is really dumb... should have been like 5-10%... they also completely forgotten about the rewards.
    How about make the rewards worth the effort.
    Post edited by Kyno on
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    For each 2% Health lost this battle, this unit gains 20% Offense and Speed (stacking). These bonuses increase by an additional 20% each time.

    Wasn't expecting a 2% threshold, i guess the intention is that each member contributes at least 2% per run, resulting in 100% (50x2) makes mercing more of a pain though

    2% is only where you start to see it. Planning, team comp, development, and as always RNG can get you past that point in a run.

    Also, now you can make as many tries as you want for an ideal run....

    I know kyno, my point is that the raid rewards are pretty bad with respect to aeromagnifiers but you could've solved the uneven distribution with posting larger scores per run by splitting the guild in half

    I don't want multiple runs for top score for aeromagnifier

    its basically a r5 roster check to get most aeromagnifiers now

    A r5 roster check strikes me as a lot fairer for people without SLKR and plenty of high-relic teams. If I can throw Vader, GAS, Padme, CLS+3pac, DR, JKR, GG, NS, SEE (for what it's worth) plus several kitchen sink teams at the raid, why should someone whose only r5+ team is SLKR get vastly better rewards? They already earn the best HSTR rewards and solo the raid at such a pace that others only get to participate in P1. I'm glad that a wider roster development is rewarded for once (or at least not overly penalized. Chances are SLKR still does the highest single-team damage).
  • Camper:
    )
    I think they need to start with devour on cooldown. Now that we're expected to use multiple teams to get small scores each, the idea that it's worth it to sacrifice an r5 toon so that I can get 3% is pretty messed up. And it gets worse when you sacrifice another r5 toon for a secondary team to get 1.5%. The sacrifice is worth less with damage capped, and you may find yourself needing to make more of them (depends where your first run ends, of course. Ideally it would end on a devour, but you can't control that).

    The new mechanics practically demand an end to this sacrifice requirement.

    I have always found the devour pointless anyway. I send in Mon Mothma on her own she escapes, devour is reset but I don’t lose the toon.

    I assume the same would work for Wat and HYoda and most if not all people doing this raid will likely have one of these so not seeing the issue. Pointless but not damaging in anyway.

  • I'm starting to wonder if those of us that complained about coordination were the vocal minority XD

    We need everyone to average a total of 8% across the raid. Vader teams should still be good for 4-5% in P1 (just throw the saber once, near the end). Padme should still be good for 3-4% in P1-3. P2/3 should have tons of teams capable of 2% from just a single topple. And we don't need to save Han, Jango, Malak for P4 junk time anymore.

    Save your GLs for P4. SLK could do 2% in P4 already. Rey+Jedi should still be good for about 4%. Those with GLs have req toons that can chip for a good 0.5% to 1%.

    While I will miss getting big numbers. I look forward to getting my damage for each phase in a 12-hour window instead of a 15-minute window.

    All of that, plus we no longer run the risk of messing up the raid for the entire guild. It's no big deal if a run goes sideways and airplane mode wasn't on.
  • Kyno
    31465 posts Moderator
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.

    There is no reason for them to make it easier, "just to say sorry", that unfortunately is not the way this works. Its end game content with end game rewards.

    4) no it has not been ignored.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Konju
    1109 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.

    There is no reason for them to make it easier, "just to say sorry", that unfortunately is not the way this works. Its end game content with end game rewards.

    4) no it has not been ignored.

    3) understand that with increased number of teams to be used that difficulty had to be increased on the single run basis: we will see what that looks like, but I also have a bad feeling about this.

    4) not ignored: acknowledged with no effective change though the damage of players will drastically flatten. Sure, fine.

    The difference between “ignored” and the situation as you see it is very little. No reward structure change will result in even more in-guild friction (something the devs said they wanted to avoid). There are solutions suggested and adjusting the Aeromagnifiers would likely be one of the easiest changes to implement in the raid from a programming standpoint. Not doing that simple change sure feels like being ignored, sentiments acknowledged or not.
  • Techno
    12 posts Member
    edited March 7
    Might've done 2 variants of CPIT. One with global 20% stat boost (old one) and other modified 2% boost (new one). And officer decide what road the guild should go. Wouldn't ruin experience for guilds that done it using huge coordination stuff, and give a chance for mid-tier guilds to ramp through CPIT throwing all squads doing 1-2%
  • Ravens1113
    3860 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
    Sorry mate, I’ve got a degree in maths.

    Exponential means the growth is as a result of a change in the power (exponent) of the function.

    Society, over time, has wrongly equated the word “exponential” with anything that grows. Doesn’t make it right.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    edited March 7
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
    Sorry mate, I’ve got a degree in maths.

    Exponential means the growth is as a result of a change in the power (exponent) of the function.

    Society, over time, has wrongly equated the word “exponential” with anything that grows. Doesn’t make it right.

    But since it's a percentage based on the actual value - and a percentage that stacks and is reapplied (and is then based on the "new" value) the growth of the difficulty is, indeed, exponential, by almost any definition. The sharper increases over time clearly create the curve of an exponential function. It's the same ascompound interest in finance - which is also considered exponential.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Ultra
    8432 posts Moderator
    Ultra wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    For each 2% Health lost this battle, this unit gains 20% Offense and Speed (stacking). These bonuses increase by an additional 20% each time.

    Wasn't expecting a 2% threshold, i guess the intention is that each member contributes at least 2% per run, resulting in 100% (50x2) makes mercing more of a pain though

    2% is only where you start to see it. Planning, team comp, development, and as always RNG can get you past that point in a run.

    Also, now you can make as many tries as you want for an ideal run....

    I know kyno, my point is that the raid rewards are pretty bad with respect to aeromagnifiers but you could've solved the uneven distribution with posting larger scores per run by splitting the guild in half

    I don't want multiple runs for top score for aeromagnifier

    its basically a r5 roster check to get most aeromagnifiers now

    A r5 roster check strikes me as a lot fairer for people without SLKR and plenty of high-relic teams. If I can throw Vader, GAS, Padme, CLS+3pac, DR, JKR, GG, NS, SEE (for what it's worth) plus several kitchen sink teams at the raid, why should someone whose only r5+ team is SLKR get vastly better rewards? They already earn the best HSTR rewards and solo the raid at such a pace that others only get to participate in P1. I'm glad that a wider roster development is rewarded for once (or at least not overly penalized. Chances are SLKR still does the highest single-team damage).

    I definitely agree, a person with just SLKR shouldn't score higher than others, but i think the threshold limits shouldn't be stringent to 2% because you aren't playing the raid that much (its very easy to meet the 2% mark afterall)

    5% would've been better as you have some time to set up your score, and actually use your team to a good degree

    When the bar is at 2%, even SEE becomes a good Raid team, since its not that difficult for a lot of factions to get 2% per run
  • Nauros
    4662 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.
    4) no it has not been ignored.

    Care to elaborate?
  • @Masterseedy

    Calling the phasma, the pilots of the first order, veteran smuggler han of usefulness is an excess of affection on your part. They are prerequisites nothing more.

    I could be investing relic material in other toons like Vader, Shak ti. I was caught halfway and now I'm stuck in the middle of the journey. Can I stop investing in them without being harmed? Absolutely not. How many players were caught up for that? That is my point that a compensation should be given to the players. I understand your point that somehow it is just a change of order of who will receive the equipment, but in a game of decisions, staying 3 months on a route and then changing it is something that is ****.

    As for the use of certain words, I cannot use bad words to convey the feeling, something that is done quite often in Brazil, especially in the Rio de Janeiro Region, which is where I live.

    @DarjeloSalas
    I was restraining myself in relation to profanity and I ended up not paying attention to the mathematical fact. You are absolutely correct that it is not an exponential increase, it is an arithmetic progression. My mistake in using the mathematical term is of no importance in this case, I know it is an arithmetic progression. Raid damage will escalate madly and teams will be wiped out very quickly. It's not just the damage, it's the speed going up, and he does 3 actions per turn, I won't be surprised if he acts 9 times in a row, since his speed base is not negligible and he wins a turn when hit.

    That's what this is about.

    @Kyno
    Regarding the awards, without official communication I am obliged to assume that the fact was ignored.
  • MaruMaru
    2346 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
    Sorry mate, I’ve got a degree in maths.

    Exponential means the growth is as a result of a change in the power (exponent) of the function.

    Society, over time, has wrongly equated the word “exponential” with anything that grows. Doesn’t make it right.

    But since it's a percentage based on the actual value - and a percentage that stacks and is reapplied (and is then based on the "new" value) the growth of the difficulty is, indeed, exponential, by almost any definition. The sharper increases over time clearly create the curve of an exponential function. It's the same ascompound interest in finance - which is also considered exponential.

    It's not exponential. Just a growing function.
  • TVF
    30974 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    Checked with devs. Here's the breakdown:

    2% Health lost this battle = 20% total stat increase
    4% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% = 60% total stat increase
    6% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% = 120% total stat increase
    8% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% = 200% total stat increase
    10% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% + 100% = 300% total stat increase

    You do realize that while you've effectively nerfed the SLKR solo (which took god mods and crazy rng to accomplish), you've nerfed all the mid level raid teams like Padme, Clones, CLS that used to be able to get 4-6% damage, and they'll now maybe get 1/2 that?

    2% is just a horrible number for the devs to have chosen. They could have made it 5% and accomplished the same goals without making it even harder to beat this thing.

    They are removing one element that made it harder to beat, they were always going to replace that with something that would keep it difficult, they made it (possibly a little)harder, but allowed player to use more than 4-6 teams to beat it.

    5% would have made it easier, because of the lowered additional stats. I'm sure they could have kept playing with the numbers and taken even longer to test this over and over again, but that wouldnt really be a welcome addition to this process.

    Either way they would have brought it to a place where it pushes development.

    Part of the process was designed to keep team order intact, so to bring down top teams meant the others had to be scaled accordingly to preserve investment.

    So 5% thresholds wouldn’t have made that same goal a reality?

    The general discussion around this was that testing at 5% made it easier.

    Ok how about 4%?

    How about 2%?

    How about a paycheck?
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno
    31465 posts Moderator
    @camper288 that is fine if you want to assume that, but I can assure you that is not true.
  • Kyno
    31465 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    Checked with devs. Here's the breakdown:

    2% Health lost this battle = 20% total stat increase
    4% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% = 60% total stat increase
    6% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% = 120% total stat increase
    8% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% = 200% total stat increase
    10% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% + 100% = 300% total stat increase

    You do realize that while you've effectively nerfed the SLKR solo (which took god mods and crazy rng to accomplish), you've nerfed all the mid level raid teams like Padme, Clones, CLS that used to be able to get 4-6% damage, and they'll now maybe get 1/2 that?

    2% is just a horrible number for the devs to have chosen. They could have made it 5% and accomplished the same goals without making it even harder to beat this thing.

    They are removing one element that made it harder to beat, they were always going to replace that with something that would keep it difficult, they made it (possibly a little)harder, but allowed player to use more than 4-6 teams to beat it.

    5% would have made it easier, because of the lowered additional stats. I'm sure they could have kept playing with the numbers and taken even longer to test this over and over again, but that wouldnt really be a welcome addition to this process.

    Either way they would have brought it to a place where it pushes development.

    Part of the process was designed to keep team order intact, so to bring down top teams meant the others had to be scaled accordingly to preserve investment.

    So 5% thresholds wouldn’t have made that same goal a reality?

    The general discussion around this was that testing at 5% made it easier.

    Ok how about 4%?

    How about 2%?

    How about a paycheck?

    It's in the mail. Had them put a few extra zeros in there for you.

    $0.0000000000000000
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
    Sorry mate, I’ve got a degree in maths.

    Exponential means the growth is as a result of a change in the power (exponent) of the function.

    Society, over time, has wrongly equated the word “exponential” with anything that grows. Doesn’t make it right.

    But since it's a percentage based on the actual value - and a percentage that stacks and is reapplied (and is then based on the "new" value) the growth of the difficulty is, indeed, exponential, by almost any definition. The sharper increases over time clearly create the curve of an exponential function. It's the same ascompound interest in finance - which is also considered exponential.
    Sorry - they clearly don’t create the curve of an exponential function.

    Compound interest IS exponential, because the variable (number of years) is in the exponent of the function.

    The increasing thresholds of the Crancor is NOT exponential, because the growth is not the result of any variable exponent.

    If the Crancor increases were 20%, then 40%, then 80% - then exponential could be used more accurately.

    But they aren’t. So it can’t.
  • camper288 wrote: »
    @DarjeloSalas
    I was restraining myself in relation to profanity and I ended up not paying attention to the mathematical fact. You are absolutely correct that it is not an exponential increase, it is an arithmetic progression. My mistake in using the mathematical term is of no importance in this case, I know it is an arithmetic progression. Raid damage will escalate madly and teams will be wiped out very quickly. It's not just the damage, it's the speed going up, and he does 3 actions per turn, I won't be surprised if he acts 9 times in a row, since his speed base is not negligible and he wins a turn when hit.

    That's what this is about.
    Agreed. I too am apprehensive about what this does, as someone who’ll complete his 8th Crancor this evening.

    I teach maths for a living - so I was compelled to point out the misuse of exponential!
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
    Sorry mate, I’ve got a degree in maths.

    Exponential means the growth is as a result of a change in the power (exponent) of the function.

    Society, over time, has wrongly equated the word “exponential” with anything that grows. Doesn’t make it right.

    But since it's a percentage based on the actual value - and a percentage that stacks and is reapplied (and is then based on the "new" value) the growth of the difficulty is, indeed, exponential, by almost any definition. The sharper increases over time clearly create the curve of an exponential function. It's the same ascompound interest in finance - which is also considered exponential.
    Sorry - they clearly don’t create the curve of an exponential function.

    Graph the damage formula then compare it to the curve of an exponential function.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • MaruMaru
    2346 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
    Sorry mate, I’ve got a degree in maths.

    Exponential means the growth is as a result of a change in the power (exponent) of the function.

    Society, over time, has wrongly equated the word “exponential” with anything that grows. Doesn’t make it right.

    But since it's a percentage based on the actual value - and a percentage that stacks and is reapplied (and is then based on the "new" value) the growth of the difficulty is, indeed, exponential, by almost any definition. The sharper increases over time clearly create the curve of an exponential function. It's the same ascompound interest in finance - which is also considered exponential.
    Sorry - they clearly don’t create the curve of an exponential function.

    Graph the damage formula then compare it to the curve of an exponential function.

    Both are a curve. That's the only similarity in between them xD
  • TVF
    30974 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    Checked with devs. Here's the breakdown:

    2% Health lost this battle = 20% total stat increase
    4% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% = 60% total stat increase
    6% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% = 120% total stat increase
    8% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% = 200% total stat increase
    10% Health lost this battle = 20% + 40% + 60% + 80% + 100% = 300% total stat increase

    You do realize that while you've effectively nerfed the SLKR solo (which took god mods and crazy rng to accomplish), you've nerfed all the mid level raid teams like Padme, Clones, CLS that used to be able to get 4-6% damage, and they'll now maybe get 1/2 that?

    2% is just a horrible number for the devs to have chosen. They could have made it 5% and accomplished the same goals without making it even harder to beat this thing.

    They are removing one element that made it harder to beat, they were always going to replace that with something that would keep it difficult, they made it (possibly a little)harder, but allowed player to use more than 4-6 teams to beat it.

    5% would have made it easier, because of the lowered additional stats. I'm sure they could have kept playing with the numbers and taken even longer to test this over and over again, but that wouldnt really be a welcome addition to this process.

    Either way they would have brought it to a place where it pushes development.

    Part of the process was designed to keep team order intact, so to bring down top teams meant the others had to be scaled accordingly to preserve investment.

    So 5% thresholds wouldn’t have made that same goal a reality?

    The general discussion around this was that testing at 5% made it easier.

    Ok how about 4%?

    How about 2%?

    How about a paycheck?

    It's in the mail. Had them put a few extra zeros in there for you.

    $0.0000000000000000

    Exponential money!
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • camper288
    211 posts Member
    edited March 7
    Plus 15% turn for each damage taken.

    Rancor speed
    0% - 216
    2% - 259
    4% - 302
    6% - 345
    8% - 388
    10% -432

    it is obvious that it is excessive, considering that there is no possibility of knocking the door down twice, considering the same phase.

  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    camper288 wrote: »
    @ DarjeloSalas
    RNG in the current setup means the difference between needing 4 teams to clear p2 or 5 teams. Once the changes drop, it’ll be the difference between needing 15 teams or 16 teams

    Wait, you're in a 308M gp guild who will have no problems completing this and you're complaining that a raid specifically intended to require a whole guild effort will now require ... 16/50 people to participate?

    Wow. That's ... that's a take, that is.

    @ Everyone

    It's only +20% people.

    The Rancor CT is a vicious, powerful beast, but we have teams that survive +75% and keep functioning for a few turns.

    To think that +20% equates to instant death is simply not reasonable. 4% teams will now get 3%, not 2%. You have to have turns in which the rancor acts for that +20% to even become relevant.

    4-6% teams will now top out at 4%, and some runs will fall down near 3.2-3.3%. But 3.2 - 4.0/4.1 isn't a crisis. You only need 25 of those solid, mid-tier teams, then 2 super teams that used to get over 20% (and now get 6%) and you have 12 hours per phase to find them. If that doesn't quite make it, throwng in junk for 0.2% at a time is just fine.

    You still need fewer than 30 people participating, and now they won't need to be coordinated & forced to hold scores in airplane mode.

    There's no big reason to worry about this. There are going to be few guilds that could complete this before that won't complete it under the new rules. I complain about CG all the time, but this was a necessary change. CG couldn't expect the game to survive if they made the guild officers, who are responsible for so much unpaid work that makes the game fun for the rest of us, completely miserable. And many guild officers hated the coordination efforts required of them.

    Play the game, wait for the new rules to hit, see how it goes. It's going to be fine, really.

    At no time did I say that change is not necessary.
    It is necessary. The way it is being done is being criticized.

    1) Guilds that are coordinated but do not have a deep list will be harmed immediately.

    2) 86 days of investment and planning between the announcement of the raid and the change. players made investments assuming a pattern and now it changes. The CG does not even have the right to say that this was not warned by the players, it was. This demands compensation.

    3) When correcting the error, instead of reducing the difficulty as compensation for the mess, they will increase exponentially.

    4) The demand for a better balance of the prizes was simply ignored. Several people came up with great formulas for the awards. The topic is there in the forum.

    5) Reliquia 5 is still abusive for entry. What is the reason why I cannot sacrifice any toon for it to be devoured, besides this obvious use of other toons there is another answer. The fear of the initiates / spirit paper, allowing the deathstorm to greatly facilitate and increase the number of guilds that would complete the raid. there are other solutions for this loop of simply put reliquia 5, but they are too lazy to imagine and test another one.

    They made a specific solution against the SLKR, do another one against the sisters (decreasing tenacity / potency buff for the players' toons while Rancor is stuck in the door) are just a few ideas.

    In summary, the measures announced are insufficient and / or wrong.

    3) they didnt do this because it was too difficult, of you go back and look many said it wasnt difficult. The one element they removed here is the limited number of teams a player could use, due to the way it was played. They needed to add that difficulty back in, in some way. I think exponentially harder is a bit of an overstatement.
    Not to nitpick, but since the Crankor's damage and speed start increasing much sooner (10 times sooner, in a single run) and those increases stack, "exponentially" is not an overstatement. It is, in fact, literally correct, as that is almost the very definition of the term "exponentially".

    The rest of your point I agree with.
    I’m a mathematician- it’s not exponential.

    It gets bigger quickly, but that in of itself does not mean the same thing as exponential.

    Except it literally is exponential.
    As it stands each threshold goes 20% to 60% to 120% to 200% to 300%. That’s at 10% damage. That means the damage and speed exponentially went up, which means “(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”

    Also rewards were ignored. Nothing was changed about them. None of the junk G5 gear was removed, none of the over saturated tank gear was removed, there was no change to the quick drop off of R8 mats in the raid boxes. So yes, it was ignored in these changes.
    Sorry mate, I’ve got a degree in maths.

    Exponential means the growth is as a result of a change in the power (exponent) of the function.

    Society, over time, has wrongly equated the word “exponential” with anything that grows. Doesn’t make it right.

    But since it's a percentage based on the actual value - and a percentage that stacks and is reapplied (and is then based on the "new" value) the growth of the difficulty is, indeed, exponential, by almost any definition. The sharper increases over time clearly create the curve of an exponential function. It's the same ascompound interest in finance - which is also considered exponential.
    Sorry - they clearly don’t create the curve of an exponential function.

    Graph the damage formula then compare it to the curve of an exponential function.

    I have two things:

    - a degree in maths
    - Better things to do than argue with someone who doesn’t.

    The graph of y=x^2 might look to the untrained eye like an exponential curve. It doesn’t mean it is one.
Sign In or Register to comment.