GAC Kyber 1 bracket depletion

Replies

  • Definitely not me. New system has some issues that need to be addressed, but the old system was still far worse, imo.
  • TVF
    33718 posts Member
    Joebo720 wrote: »
    It's how you pretend everyone will get more rewards and you slowly take it away from them until they don't. Still liked the old system better.

    There's no pretend
    The CGDF requests that CG takes away everyone's Extra Life Charity Event rewards. We don't deserve them. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF
    33718 posts Member
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    It feels a bit dishonest that you moved our crystal income to GAC and slowly reduce it over time by pushing down the reward levels artificially.

    It can feel that way but you have to factor in how many players started earning way more crystals the minute they moved crystals to GAC.

    It's a lot.

    So? Does that mean that they can artificially reduce the income, just because it was less more than a year ago? How long will it take until the old income is not compared to the "new" one?

    I'll let you know if I fall from K1 to K4.

    Furthermore, people in lower divisions get pushed up.

    So just because you didn't drop out of Kyber 1 you are not concerned and have no opinion, eventhough the numbers presented paint a very clear picture. Waiting until something affects you before you start to take notice or think about it does not strike me as the right way to go about it.

    I did drop out. I won four of five and just climbed back. The point is that I have to fall much much farther to once again be at the break even point, and at that time I will be gaining points at end of season rather than losing them. And obviously I take notice and think about it now, way before it affects me. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I do so because I haven't bothered to think about it or care.

    As far as everyone else goes, most players weren't getting top arena spots so they're also doing better than before. And if the squish pushes them down too far, when they're at lower divisions it will pull them back up too.

    Most of this is (most) people not willing to acknowledge that CG is paying out way more crystals than before.
    The CGDF requests that CG takes away everyone's Extra Life Charity Event rewards. We don't deserve them. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    It feels a bit dishonest that you moved our crystal income to GAC and slowly reduce it over time by pushing down the reward levels artificially.

    It can feel that way but you have to factor in how many players started earning way more crystals the minute they moved crystals to GAC.

    It's a lot.

    So? Does that mean that they can artificially reduce the income, just because it was less more than a year ago? How long will it take until the old income is not compared to the "new" one?

    I'll let you know if I fall from K1 to K4.

    Furthermore, people in lower divisions get pushed up.

    So just because you didn't drop out of Kyber 1 you are not concerned and have no opinion, eventhough the numbers presented paint a very clear picture. Waiting until something affects you before you start to take notice or think about it does not strike me as the right way to go about it.

    I did drop out. I won four of five and just climbed back. The point is that I have to fall much much farther to once again be at the break even point, and at that time I will be gaining points at end of season rather than losing them. And obviously I take notice and think about it now, way before it affects me. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I do so because I haven't bothered to think about it or care.

    As far as everyone else goes, most players weren't getting top arena spots so they're also doing better than before. And if the squish pushes them down too far, when they're at lower divisions it will pull them back up too.

    Most of this is (most) people not willing to acknowledge that CG is paying out way more crystals than before.

    While it may be true that CG is paying out more crystals than before moving crystals from arena to GAC, they have also introduced more places to spend crystals. The crystal economy seems tangential to the question about the squish.

    Iirc, with the current system Kyber1 is gonna be about 30 people in the not too distant future. I think that's the bigger concern. What does the algorithm cause the overall GAC board to look like over time and is it working as intended...
  • Ultra wrote: »
    I tried talking about the squish issue with CG last week but i am not well versed on this enough

    @Taliana what's your input / suggestion on whether this is an issue or not and what's your proposed solution?

    Someone just tagged me in from discord :-)

    The shape of their squish is wrong. They are doing a linear squish in kyber where the crossover point from positive to negative is around the average skill rating for kyber, but kyber doesn’t have a normally distributed population. So they’re not actually succeeding in the goal of compressing kyber1 and kyber2 scores while keeping the population intact. Instead, they’re squashing k1 waaay too hard (with ripple effects into k2) such that it isn’t self sustaining and the numbers keep dropping past - and the size of the compression is larger than the natural score growth squish is meant to fight.

    There’s a couple ways to try to solve it. In any case they work with, the first thing they need to do is correct the sizes back to kyber1 as 10% of kyber.

    Then.. possibility #1) They’re doing a good job of keeping kyber itself at their target size, so that tells us a linear squish is working across a pool - maybe they just need to squish kyber1 as it’s own pool? Downside is it becomes a little bit harder to cross over the k2/k1 boundary, benefit is there’s still a k1 to move into.

    Possibility #2: a nonlinear squish. Flatten the squish across k2 and the bottom of k1, then increase it rapidly as you approach the top of k1 to compress those top scores down. Downside is I don’t know the right formula to use.

  • TVF wrote: »

    Furthermore, people in lower divisions get pushed up.

    Not entirely. All of carbonite is pushed up. Aurodium is entirely squished down, just with a very flat slope to the line.

    There’s a post from last month-ish showing the dependence of squish on skill ratings with the formula they’ve been using for the last few months; you can visually see who benefits and who doesn’t.

  • TVF
    33718 posts Member
    Interesting. Well, point still somewhat stands and since this is all just talk anyway, I'm fine with it until I end up in K4, if that ever happens, and even then I still don't have to be tied to my phone for an hour plus for squad arena anymore.
    The CGDF requests that CG takes away everyone's Extra Life Charity Event rewards. We don't deserve them. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    Interesting. Well, point still somewhat stands and since this is all just talk anyway, I'm fine with it until I end up in K4, if that ever happens, and even then I still don't have to be tied to my phone for an hour plus for squad arena anymore.

    It is totally your right to be fine with it, but many are not fine with constantly being squished down further and further. Those voices should be heard.

    How is it fair that you always get squished down just because you're in Aurodium?
    We are all made of star-stuff
  • Screerider
    744 posts Member
    edited January 17
    Lumiya wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    Pretty sure the squish retains your position, unless someone can show an example of someone with higher Skill Rating being squished below someone who had a lower Skill Rating.

    Also, Squishing up is apparently a thing as well.

    A player's position in regards to other players is in no way relevant. Their position in the division/ League is.
    Well, the idea is that if you were at Position XYZ before the Squish, you'd still be at Position XYZ after the Squish. This means whatever Percentile you were at doesn't change. If Leagues and Divisions are based on Percentiles, the Squish isn't going to change that.

    From what others have gathered, though, it does seem the percentiles for each Division have been changing over time, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd be curious what CG's explanation is.

    In any case, the Squish isn't the cause of redrawing the Percentiles.
    Post edited by Screerider on
  • TVF
    33718 posts Member
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Interesting. Well, point still somewhat stands and since this is all just talk anyway, I'm fine with it until I end up in K4, if that ever happens, and even then I still don't have to be tied to my phone for an hour plus for squad arena anymore.

    It is totally your right to be fine with it, but many are not fine with constantly being squished down further and further. Those voices should be heard.

    Wait can you please point out where I said they shouldn't be heard?

    We're all allowed to voice our opinions here. We've both done so.
    The CGDF requests that CG takes away everyone's Extra Life Charity Event rewards. We don't deserve them. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • I really stopped caring about gac around 6 months ago and even with a brutal 3v3 season of 1-5 I’m still in k2. My crystal income has greatly increased with the new system but just because I’m getting more crystals while caring less doesn’t mean gac can’t be better.

    The main reason I don’t care anymore is the depletion of kyber 1. Can’t say I really care for myself as I’m similar to @TVF I just need to stay above k4. However, I wish they had approached controlling the size of various leagues/division by adjusting the skill rating needed instead of squishing our ratings. It certainly would have felt more fair to adjust kyber 1 rating to include the top 10% of accounts at the end of each season and kyber 2 to 11-30 and so on and so forth than using the current system.

    Regardless, to continually have fewer players in k1 than their stated goal of 10% of kyber and ignoring that fact needs to stop. Whether fixing this is accomplished by a once every six month adjustment to everyone’s skill rating or periodically adjusting the thresholds for each division doesn’t matter to me.
  • System just balance itself and this balance is dead end. Most competitive GACs for me was on 4-7 months after this system was launched.

    Just again I will suggest reset skillrating sorted by GP with one time reward for current position and play another year of this system. And then do it again and again every year. GP will not be an issue, because it is just starting position and it affects only on 1 GAC of 12.

    Or lower skillrating decrease number after losing GAC, like: 1 win = (2 lose)*-1.
  • Screerider wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    Pretty sure the squish retains your position, unless someone can show an example of someone with higher Skill Rating being squished below someone who had a lower Skill Rating.

    Also, Squishing up is apparently a thing as well.

    A player's position in regards to other players is in no way relevant. Their position in the division/ League is.
    Well, the idea is that if you were at Position XYZ before the Squish, you'd still be at Position XYZ after the Squish. This means whatever Percentile you were at doesn't change. If Leagues and Divisions are based on Percentiles, the Squish isn't going to change that.

    From what others have gathered, though, it does seem the percentiles for each Division have been changing over time, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd be curious what CG's explanation is.

    In any case, the Squish isn't the cause of redrawing the Percentiles.

    CG's explanation: We don't have to pay out rewards to as many players if we make Kyber smaller! That's it, nothing more.

    Pretty soon K1 will be the top 1000 or even 500 and all of Kyber will be like 3-4000. Just one more event where CG wants to give as many players as possible scraps to work with so we'll spend more money on the game.
  • Screerider wrote: »
    Well, the idea is that if you were at Position XYZ before the Squish, you'd still be at Position XYZ after the Squish. This means whatever Percentile you were at doesn't change. If Leagues and Divisions are based on Percentiles, the Squish isn't going to change that.

    From what others have gathered, though, it does seem the percentiles for each Division have been changing over time, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd be curious what CG's explanation is.

    In any case, the Squish isn't the cause of redrawing the Percentiles.

    I’m not sure if you are legitimately confusing percentile and percentage between different parts of the discussion?

    The percentage in each division and league is changing. Percentile is no longer linked well to rewards because of that change in percentage.

    Also the same skill rating can have a different squish based on your league - it’s a little bizarre. See the circled region of the squish chart rcq3s39qr0dr.jpeg


  • An obvious thing they need to do is strip 100 day inactive accounts of rank and remove them entirely. This will help alleviate the squish.
  • Olddumper wrote: »
    An obvious thing they need to do is strip 100 day inactive accounts of rank and remove them entirely. This will help alleviate the squish.

    Or remove cheaters

  • Ragnarok_COTF
    1297 posts Member
    edited January 17
    Wow, that trend is truly baffling, particularly for the middle 3 leagues.

    I do wonder how much bandwidth CG has to address things like this (and cheating) when they have to create a new Conquest character every 12 weeks and a new DC set every 8 weeks in addition to all the new Marquees; Legendaries; GLs; packs; and, on very rare occasions, new content.
  • Wisehu
    2 posts Member
    edited January 17
    Wow, that trend is truly baffling, particularly for the middle 3 leagues.

    I do wonder how much bandwidth CG has to address things like this (and cheating) when they have to create a new Conquest character every 12 weeks and a new DC set every 8 weeks in addition to all the new Marquees; Legendaries; GLs; packs; and, on very rare occasions, new content.

    I do hope they don't have the same devs working on all of those things at the same time, but that'd explain a lot of things.
  • TVF
    33718 posts Member
    Olddumper wrote: »
    An obvious thing they need to do is strip 100 day inactive accounts of rank and remove them entirely. This will help alleviate the squish.

    How do you remove someone entirely? What happens if they come back?

    The CGDF requests that CG takes away everyone's Extra Life Charity Event rewards. We don't deserve them. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    Olddumper wrote: »
    An obvious thing they need to do is strip 100 day inactive accounts of rank and remove them entirely. This will help alleviate the squish.

    How do you remove someone entirely? What happens if they come back?

    If they come back they can be sorted back in by GP but no higher than Aurodium.

    Under 5 mil carbonite
    5 to 7.5 chromium
    Above 7.5 Aurodium

    Start them out in these and you can adjust these periodically but for now that would be about right.

    Between this and small reward crates for clearing a zone and they would never have to revisit the issue.
  • Rokaryn_Mazel
    150 posts Member
    edited January 17
    TheDude420 wrote: »
    I brought this up when this system was rolled out, and was told the squish is normal for this type of ranking system in other games.

    But the obvious question is, if we are getting squished every few months, and we are designed to only have a 50% win rate…doesn’t that mean that K1 (and eventually K2?) will keep getting smaller and smaller due to the continued squish?

    Squish may be normal with this type of ranking system, but this ranking system has static division boundaries that are causing K1 shrinkage at an alarming rate.

    And no, we were not in the shower!

    Post edited by Rokaryn_Mazel on
  • Taliana wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    Well, the idea is that if you were at Position XYZ before the Squish, you'd still be at Position XYZ after the Squish. This means whatever Percentile you were at doesn't change. If Leagues and Divisions are based on Percentiles, the Squish isn't going to change that.

    From what others have gathered, though, it does seem the percentiles for each Division have been changing over time, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd be curious what CG's explanation is.

    In any case, the Squish isn't the cause of redrawing the Percentiles.

    I’m not sure if you are legitimately confusing percentile and percentage between different parts of the discussion?

    The percentage in each division and league is changing. Percentile is no longer linked well to rewards because of that change in percentage.

    Also the same skill rating can have a different squish based on your league - it’s a little bizarre. See the circled region of the squish chart rcq3s39qr0dr.jpeg

    Yeah, maybe I should use "Ranking" instead of "Percentage", which in my mind I'm converting Rankings to Percentage locations on the spectrum.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Interesting. Well, point still somewhat stands and since this is all just talk anyway, I'm fine with it until I end up in K4, if that ever happens, and even then I still don't have to be tied to my phone for an hour plus for squad arena anymore.

    It is totally your right to be fine with it, but many are not fine with constantly being squished down further and further. Those voices should be heard.

    Wait can you please point out where I said they shouldn't be heard?

    We're all allowed to voice our opinions here. We've both done so.

    Did I say you said so? No I didn't...
    We are all made of star-stuff
  • TVF
    33718 posts Member
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Interesting. Well, point still somewhat stands and since this is all just talk anyway, I'm fine with it until I end up in K4, if that ever happens, and even then I still don't have to be tied to my phone for an hour plus for squad arena anymore.

    It is totally your right to be fine with it, but many are not fine with constantly being squished down further and further. Those voices should be heard.

    Wait can you please point out where I said they shouldn't be heard?

    We're all allowed to voice our opinions here. We've both done so.

    Did I say you said so? No I didn't...

    "Those voices should be heard" implies it. No reason to say it unless you think I disagree, which I don't.
    The CGDF requests that CG takes away everyone's Extra Life Charity Event rewards. We don't deserve them. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Screerider wrote: »
    Taliana wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    Well, the idea is that if you were at Position XYZ before the Squish, you'd still be at Position XYZ after the Squish. This means whatever Percentile you were at doesn't change. If Leagues and Divisions are based on Percentiles, the Squish isn't going to change that.

    From what others have gathered, though, it does seem the percentiles for each Division have been changing over time, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd be curious what CG's explanation is.

    In any case, the Squish isn't the cause of redrawing the Percentiles.

    I’m not sure if you are legitimately confusing percentile and percentage between different parts of the discussion?

    The percentage in each division and league is changing. Percentile is no longer linked well to rewards because of that change in percentage.

    Also the same skill rating can have a different squish based on your league - it’s a little bizarre. See the circled region of the squish chart rcq3s39qr0dr.jpeg

    Yeah, maybe I should use "Ranking" instead of "Percentage", which in my mind I'm converting Rankings to Percentage locations on the spectrum.

    But still then what you say doesn't correctly fit to the problem. The problem is not if your position is the same after the squish, as has been pointed out that position only changes after the first fight.

    It is about the position in your League and division. If you get constantly points removed with every squish, you would have to win more fights to balance out those lost points. That's why people get relegated to the division below even if they won their first round which wouldn't happen without the squish, because you would stay in that division obviously. Nobody can tell me that they think this is ok. I -might- find it ok if we wouldn't have the system's 50% win/loss rate because then at least you would have the chance to win more fights but as it is now, you get points taken away while you are artificially set up to lose half of your rounds. You just can't balance it out after a while and on top of that higher accounts from above you fall down to where you are, making it even more difficult.

    I started noticing that the squish always removes points from me around June or July last year. The first 3-4 times I didn't think much of it, because I thought maybe bad luck, but when I realised that it seems to happen with every squish, I started documenting it with screenshots.

    Ever since then I lost
    In October - 26
    November - 22
    December - 26
    January - 20
    points
    Add to that the months before I didn't take screenshots and let's be nice and just say I "only" lost 20 in 3 months, then it's 60 more...

    That makes 154 points removed. The area of a division in Aurodium is give or take 100 points, so that makes 1 1/2 divisions.

    I think this is unacceptable.
    We are all made of star-stuff
  • It's ok.
  • Lumiya wrote: »
    It is about the position in your League and division. If you get constantly points removed with every squish, you would have to win more fights to balance out those lost points.
    (...)
    Add to that the months before I didn't take screenshots and let's be nice and just say I "only" lost 20 in 3 months, then it's 60 more...

    That makes 154 points removed. The area of a division in Aurodium is give or take 100 points, so that makes 1 1/2 divisions.

    I think this is unacceptable.

    It's only "unacceptable" (I think it's a big word for such a small problem, but let's) if the squish doesn't work as intended. Squish/Push are there to maintain a balanced division population (20% in each league, something like 10/25/30/25/10 in each division, I don't remember exactly) in a tournament where the total number of players change each time. If the same percentage of players received the same rewards after the squish/push, then it's quite fair.

    Tl;dr: It's bound to happen each GAC; the only issue is if it doesn't work properly.


  • In my memory, the squish was explained to reduce the constant increases in time. If they did not doing this, the number of player in kyber 1 would increase in time. I do understand why they did that, but in fact, what it is actually happening it’s the complete opposite. The only way to fix this is by moving the threshold to a fix number of players in each division. I hope they will do something or we will all reduce cristal income in the future…
  • Jefferx wrote: »
    In my memory, the squish was explained to reduce the constant increases in time. If they did not doing this, the number of player in kyber 1 would increase in time. I do understand why they did that, but in fact, what it is actually happening it’s the complete opposite. The only way to fix this is by moving the threshold to a fix number of players in each division. I hope they will do something or we will all reduce cristal income in the future…

    If only CG could math.
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