Suggested Counter team: Chewie(L), Fives, Dooku, Kylo, Daka
Persistent Defense Up on top of 50 bonus Defense. Taunt for when counterattackers need a heal. Rez for when things turn sideways. Debuffs galore.
The Counter Team I will run:
IGD(L), Barriss, QGJ, Mace, Luminara
High Defense with 2 Heals instead of Taunt. Counters trigger Basic bonuses. 2 Dispels.
What rank do you usually hold in arena? Both of the teams you listed wouldn't be able to hold top 100 in my server. High defense and Defense up still provides nothing in the battle, health is the only defensive stat that actually affects battle. The teams you have provided are interesting, but no way effective in today's arena, could be cool for GW.
I am a solid top 50 regular.
You have obviously not tested the Defense changes.
350 Armor actually means something now.
Once people actually start to try new things, the sea of Dooku will wash away, and wondrous variety will abound.
You state opinion as fact with no corroborating evidence to support it.
I say you actually do not know.
would you please elaborate on the changes they made to defense? Regardless of who I'm attacking, my attacks do roughly the same damage, and it is because of this that I say defense has not been changed. What exactly does 350 armor mean? The devs have not elaborated on what changes they have done, I would love for you to tell me what has been changed. it used to mean that you hit for 350 less damage. 350 damage is still not much when my Rey hits for over 10k. I haven't seen any evidence that this has been changed. And I have played several defensive and tanky team, and it's still the same story. Not enough damage, not enough speed, and not even enough survivability to bring the match close to a loss or draw. the original points were discussing strategy, and I say that your teams illustrates a strategy that is not in touch with the mechanics of the game. when you run a Dooku speed team, no other team provides a semblance of a challenge against you. If you sold out to the meta (I know it sucks) you would be a mainstay in the top 20 if not top 10. the sea of Dooku will not wash away until there aee truly better options out there
It's funny that I find myself using Greedo's Thermal Detonators to avoid AOE retaliation and a means to circumvent some of the dodging. I have seen enemies resist the detonators but not evade or dodge them. I could be mistaken.
I also use Teebo's Bring Low Special because it can't be dodged. Pair that with Offense Up and Advantage and you can bring an evading Dooku to his knees quickly. But then you have Teebo on Defense in Arena so it's a double edge sword I guess.
I'm getting used to the Dooku leadership ability. It's annoying but not overwhelming. His damage is surprisingly low. The Offense Up on evade is pretty dangerous though so I have to be very selective in who I'm attacking. I don't want to give Offense up to IG-88 when he's about ready to AOE my team LOL!!
Suggested Counter team: Chewie(L), Fives, Dooku, Kylo, Daka
Persistent Defense Up on top of 50 bonus Defense. Taunt for when counterattackers need a heal. Rez for when things turn sideways. Debuffs galore.
The Counter Team I will run:
IGD(L), Barriss, QGJ, Mace, Luminara
High Defense with 2 Heals instead of Taunt. Counters trigger Basic bonuses. 2 Dispels.
How about some video comparisons with that suggested counter team changing between Chewie and Dooku for the leader?
I agree the meta hasn't been shaken out yet, but I don't think that defense up will work better than Dooku's evade + offense up in a counter attack team.
Another anecdotal point (that I'm certain many other can attest to as well). When I leave a QGJ lead team overnight (as a top 50 payout) - I drop into the 70s and 80s. When I swap out the leader to Dooku (which actually lowers my team's power) - I drop to the 50s...if at all.
Whether or not Dooku-lead is optimal, it is feared on defense. That counts for something.
You are correct, sir. In fact, QGJ is the first guy I go after. No counter with him, tee hee!!!
Suggested Counter team: Chewie(L), Fives, Dooku, Kylo, Daka
Persistent Defense Up on top of 50 bonus Defense. Taunt for when counterattackers need a heal. Rez for when things turn sideways. Debuffs galore.
The Counter Team I will run:
IGD(L), Barriss, QGJ, Mace, Luminara
High Defense with 2 Heals instead of Taunt. Counters trigger Basic bonuses. 2 Dispels.
How about some video comparisons with that suggested counter team changing between Chewie and Dooku for the leader?
I agree the meta hasn't been shaken out yet, but I don't think that defense up will work better than Dooku's evade + offense up in a counter attack team.
Your suggestion sounds fun, I will look into it.
I agree that my setup lacks Offense Up, but you could replace Daka with Poggle or QGJ, knowing you lose the defensive versatility of a heal and 2 chances to rez.
You will surely get more Evasion with Dooku, and more counters with Chewie.
The question is whether the tempo gained is higher with Defense or Evasion.
There are 3 possible relevant outcomes to an attack:
(400 Armor is considered High, 100 Low)
(Assuming no modifiers and equal damage)
Evade- Take no damage, give no damage, nobody gains.
Hit to High Armor- Take partial damage, give full damage, defender gains tempo.
Hit to Low Armor- Take full damage, give full damage, nobody gains.
If 400 Armor mitigates 15% damage, then it is essentially equivalent to 15% Evasion.
Maximizing Basic Attack synergies compounds the math, but skews highly in favor of being able to trigger as many counters as possible.
I believe 400 Armor is probably more like 10% mitigation, but that 5% is offset by the fact that it always happens.
Chewie's leadership provides Defense Up when struck, so could be considered "always on".
Dooku often gets two attacks per counter, making it even more damage lost to an Evade.
Kylo needs to be hit to trigger his cooldown reset, enabling permanent Retribution.
Fives gets two attacks per counter, as well. They need triggers, not Dodges.
Why do you think IGD has Defense and counters in his leadership?
Maybe he is used because he makes the team stronger? It does help when a char evades Rey's Flurry or GS swarm, as well as all kind of stuns.
Evasion is good.
Evasion with counters is sub-optimal.
Wow more nonsense coming out of timitock...
Best case scenario, you dodge,
-lose no health/protection
-get offense up-
-lengthen the time needed for the opponent to kill your counter attackers and possibly time out
-put opponent's specials into cooldown, thus further lengthening their time to kill your counter attackers
What's not to like compared to taking damage?
@Zekex. Lol more nonsense out of Timitock is right lol. Opens thread onnly to argue with everyone who offers different point of view.
I went back and forth with him earlier trying to explain why Mace, Plo, Anakin and JKG are useless right now. I offered lots of detail and thread references. Yet somehow he managed to steer the conversation from talking about Jedi, to discussing when the word unless should be applied. It was rather entertaining lol
Suggested Counter team: Chewie(L), Fives, Dooku, Kylo, Daka
Persistent Defense Up on top of 50 bonus Defense. Taunt for when counterattackers need a heal. Rez for when things turn sideways. Debuffs galore.
The Counter Team I will run:
IGD(L), Barriss, QGJ, Mace, Luminara
High Defense with 2 Heals instead of Taunt. Counters trigger Basic bonuses. 2 Dispels.
How about some video comparisons with that suggested counter team changing between Chewie and Dooku for the leader?
I agree the meta hasn't been shaken out yet, but I don't think that defense up will work better than Dooku's evade + offense up in a counter attack team.
Your suggestion sounds fun, I will look into it.
I agree that my setup lacks Offense Up, but you could replace Daka with Poggle or QGJ, knowing you lose the defensive versatility of a heal and 2 chances to rez.
You will surely get more Evasion with Dooku, and more counters with Chewie.
The question is whether the tempo gained is higher with Defense or Evasion.
There are 3 possible relevant outcomes to an attack:
(400 Armor is considered High, 100 Low)
(Assuming no modifiers and equal damage)
Evade- Take no damage, give no damage, nobody gains.
Hit to High Armor- Take partial damage, give full damage, defender gains tempo.
Hit to Low Armor- Take full damage, give full damage, nobody gains.
If 400 Armor mitigates 15% damage, then it is essentially equivalent to 15% Evasion.
Maximizing Basic Attack synergies compounds the math, but skews highly in favor of being able to trigger as many counters as possible.
I believe 400 Armor is probably more like 10% mitigation, but that 5% is offset by the fact that it always happens.
Chewie's leadership provides Defense Up when struck, so could be considered "always on".
Dooku often gets two attacks per counter, making it even more damage lost to an Evade.
Kylo needs to be hit to trigger his cooldown reset, enabling permanent Retribution.
Fives gets two attacks per counter, as well. They need triggers, not Dodges.
Why do you think IGD has Defense and counters in his leadership?
I actually think Daka is a weak point (and goes against your strategy since stunned characters can't attack ) so Poggle might work. However, if you didn't need offense up you could replace Poggle with a more reliable healer (Lumi/Barriss) or another counter attacker (FOST).
One thing to keep in mind that on defense, without Dooku as a leader you won't get much offense up. They'd just kill Daka, Chewie, Poggle and QGJ before they could do much. Even if Poggle or QGJ got one offense up off it would wear off half way through the match. The attacking player would just leave the counter attackers alone until they killed the support. My experience in playing teams like this is the late offense up is a really big deal.
No offense, but I'm having trouble understanding the point of this thread at this point. A few people have expressed differing opinions or explanations and you attack them. You can have a discussion with someone you disagree with without getting defensive.
With that said said, there are 2 issues with your premis as stated.
1) You're making it seem like a counter team's primary objective is to counter. It isn't. By definition countering is a defensive action, so it can only be triggered by an opposing attack. Because of that a counter teams primary goal is to attack and then attack again when hit. With this in mind evasion is great for a counter team because if they aren't getting hit, they aren't taking damage and can attack more.
2) You've presented the argument of Evasion/Counter in a vacuum and aren't really taking into account the offense up portion of the ability. Every time a counter toon evades they get offense up for subsequent counters and an attack. For example: 5s could evade 1 attack and then have offense up for 4 counters after that before his turn. That's a LOT more damage than he would have done vs that one additional counter he misse out on. Alternatively, he could evade Dooku's first strike, get offense up, then get hit by Dooku's bonus strike and then counter with the offense up. Which again would be way more damage than 2 counters at normal damage.
No offense, but I'm having trouble understanding the point of this thread at this point. A few people have expressed differing opinions or explanations and you attack them. You can have a discussion with someone you disagree with without getting defensive.
With that said said, there are 2 issues with your premis as stated.
1) You're making it seem like a counter team's primary objective is to counter. It isn't. By definition countering is a defensive action, so it can only be triggered by an opposing attack. Because of that a counter teams primary goal is to attack and then attack again when hit. With this in mind evasion is great for a counter team because if they aren't getting hit, they aren't taking damage and can attack more.
2) You've presented the argument of Evasion/Counter in a vacuum and aren't really taking into account the offense up portion of the ability. Every time a counter toon evades they get offense up for subsequent counters and an attack. For example: 5s could evade 1 attack and then have offense up for 4 counters after that before his turn. That's a LOT more damage than he would have done vs that one additional counter he misse out on. Alternatively, he could evade Dooku's first strike, get offense up, then get hit by Dooku's bonus strike and then counter with the offense up. Which again would be way more damage than 2 counters at normal damage.
Replies
Yeah, probably better to argue than trying it...
Nah. All I see in your post is "please stop using Dooku/Dooku Lead". No offense intended.
I could care less what you use.
I use a Lumi lead.
I never told anyone to not use Dooku.
Its still counter-synergistic.
I also use Teebo's Bring Low Special because it can't be dodged. Pair that with Offense Up and Advantage and you can bring an evading Dooku to his knees quickly. But then you have Teebo on Defense in Arena so it's a double edge sword I guess.
I'm getting used to the Dooku leadership ability. It's annoying but not overwhelming. His damage is surprisingly low. The Offense Up on evade is pretty dangerous though so I have to be very selective in who I'm attacking. I don't want to give Offense up to IG-88 when he's about ready to AOE my team LOL!!
I agree the meta hasn't been shaken out yet, but I don't think that defense up will work better than Dooku's evade + offense up in a counter attack team.
You are correct, sir. In fact, QGJ is the first guy I go after. No counter with him, tee hee!!!
Parrying, evading, and countering are sound tactics.
Your suggestion sounds fun, I will look into it.
I agree that my setup lacks Offense Up, but you could replace Daka with Poggle or QGJ, knowing you lose the defensive versatility of a heal and 2 chances to rez.
You will surely get more Evasion with Dooku, and more counters with Chewie.
The question is whether the tempo gained is higher with Defense or Evasion.
There are 3 possible relevant outcomes to an attack:
(400 Armor is considered High, 100 Low)
(Assuming no modifiers and equal damage)
Evade- Take no damage, give no damage, nobody gains.
Hit to High Armor- Take partial damage, give full damage, defender gains tempo.
Hit to Low Armor- Take full damage, give full damage, nobody gains.
If 400 Armor mitigates 15% damage, then it is essentially equivalent to 15% Evasion.
Maximizing Basic Attack synergies compounds the math, but skews highly in favor of being able to trigger as many counters as possible.
I believe 400 Armor is probably more like 10% mitigation, but that 5% is offset by the fact that it always happens.
Chewie's leadership provides Defense Up when struck, so could be considered "always on".
Dooku often gets two attacks per counter, making it even more damage lost to an Evade.
Kylo needs to be hit to trigger his cooldown reset, enabling permanent Retribution.
Fives gets two attacks per counter, as well. They need triggers, not Dodges.
Why do you think IGD has Defense and counters in his leadership?
In boxing, you can counter after evading, and being hit does not ensure you can immediately hit back 4 times.
Whole different ballgames.
Yeah QGJ was getting wrecked.
@Zekex. Lol more nonsense out of Timitock is right lol. Opens thread onnly to argue with everyone who offers different point of view.
I went back and forth with him earlier trying to explain why Mace, Plo, Anakin and JKG are useless right now. I offered lots of detail and thread references. Yet somehow he managed to steer the conversation from talking about Jedi, to discussing when the word unless should be applied. It was rather entertaining lol
I am confident that time will prove me right.
Whatever you say boss
Good for you
I actually think Daka is a weak point (and goes against your strategy since stunned characters can't attack
One thing to keep in mind that on defense, without Dooku as a leader you won't get much offense up. They'd just kill Daka, Chewie, Poggle and QGJ before they could do much. Even if Poggle or QGJ got one offense up off it would wear off half way through the match. The attacking player would just leave the counter attackers alone until they killed the support. My experience in playing teams like this is the late offense up is a really big deal.
With that said said, there are 2 issues with your premis as stated.
1) You're making it seem like a counter team's primary objective is to counter. It isn't. By definition countering is a defensive action, so it can only be triggered by an opposing attack. Because of that a counter teams primary goal is to attack and then attack again when hit. With this in mind evasion is great for a counter team because if they aren't getting hit, they aren't taking damage and can attack more.
2) You've presented the argument of Evasion/Counter in a vacuum and aren't really taking into account the offense up portion of the ability. Every time a counter toon evades they get offense up for subsequent counters and an attack. For example: 5s could evade 1 attack and then have offense up for 4 counters after that before his turn. That's a LOT more damage than he would have done vs that one additional counter he misse out on. Alternatively, he could evade Dooku's first strike, get offense up, then get hit by Dooku's bonus strike and then counter with the offense up. Which again would be way more damage than 2 counters at normal damage.
+1