No, I am not, but I believe he mentioned he was apart of one of their guilds.
Well the point remains, you are going after him because he shares a view that some of TI holds. That's great
Actually, I was referring to him in one instance of my post and a member of team instinct in the other. The quote that I pulled was from him, but I failed to differentiate it from the application comment. So he assumed I was referring to him which is understandable given the circumstances. When he pointed it out, I sought to tell him that bit was not intended for him but was for a team instinct member which does in fact share the same view on the subject matter.
Just to clarify, I'm a FTP player and consistently get rank 30-50 rewards in T7 and it is amazing esp with the full drops (2x caller, 1x each nubian, lots of salvage, but of course I need furnaces).
There is nothing I can complain about with such great drops, but I can see why whale guilds would be disappointed (less than desired salvage, i.e. 15 instead of 40 average salvage per). Hence why mixed guilds are the most ideal.
FTP don't feel they deserve top 20 rewards, so we're happy getting these rewards since we're where we should be.
When I say know their roles, some are good in phase one, some in phase 2 or 3. I don't know anyone in our guild who is upset with their rewards. I would say 40-50 are happier than 30-39.
This may be correct as there are norms and differences in expectations, probably as a result of different spend levers historically and also where you started when the guild was set. Just look out a month or so though as these middling players get better and better - unlock 7* heroes, build gear on core toons, get enough omegas - do you honestly think they will still have the same expectations to just take garbage rewards? No. To believe that you would have to feel that they have no desire to improve their team and score better.
Here's the deal - if any of these people express a desire to get better at the raid and score better - than in the end they will not be truly happy permanently getting poor rewards because otherwise they wouldn't be concerned about getting better at the raid.
Absolutely correct. That's when it is time to split. They are ready to move up. They have a good phase one squad and decent rancor squad. We overkill and time to bring in people happy to get 45th. Of which there are many stuck in awful poorly functioning tier 5 guilds.
Yes you are welcome for this easy solution. I give away the keys to be castle... The simple way to be the BEST at this game. The solution for the ultimate choke point/bottleneck. Sheesh wish I hadn't of spilled the beans.
Luckily there is enough smokescreen here and stubbornness that the message is being missed.
My favorite forms of it are:
1) "system is flawed I shouldn't have to"
2) "I love my guys though and we are loyal"
3) "it shouldn't be this way it should be united and strongest"
You can lead a horse to water...
If you aren't first place you're last
If you can't beat them...
You continue to weaken your argument that the the system shouldn't be changed by explaining in more detail your thoughts. You're now advocating a system of continual guild turnover. Supposedly you love your team and your guild, yet you're already counting on splitting up when others improve to catch up to you? That's a great teammate there. I love the honesty though that you are okay abusing the lower 75-80% of your roster, whatever that composition is, to your own benefit. So rather than fix the system, you want to continually funnel through and turnover the majority of your own guild over time and continue to have a class of your guild that is merely there to bank coin so you can get top rewards and raid frequently?
LOL, there's over a hundred users on our Discord server, made up of two healthy guilds that collect max coins and have heroic on T7, working on a 3rd guild to make it 150+.
What's wrong in that? The guys that branched off into the sister guild still laugh and hang out with the guys from original MC. The new guys brought into MC totally get along and contribute just like the original ones.
I'm one of the "lowly" 75-80% you're taking pity on, but don't. My original contributions in raids were around the 80K mark. Now they're around the 200K mark. That's because I had whales and big dolphins carrying me. They got the lions share of the rewards because they did the lions share of the work. I used to place in the bottom 50, now I place in the Top 40.
Before too long I'll be breaking into the Top 20. When I do, I'll consider becoming part of the new core that makes up MC3 or MC4 or whatever that one is. I'll still be part of that same core group and still be chatting with my friends on Discord and everyone will be winning.
Or we can sit on our original 50 and stomp our feet and throw money in air while have a temper tantrum that spending enough money to buy a luxury car on a mobile game isn't getting us all of our hearts desires.
I personally like our way better but everyone else playing this game can decide for themselves.
You have a lot of faith. That sounds just like a pyramid scam. For that to continue to work you have to expand indefinitely to an ever increasing number of teams, else at some point the former worker bees will have no new team to be leaders in and will be stuck in the junky rewards section. Are you sure there will be an MC3 let alone an MC4? I'm absolutely not trying to rip your guild - if you guys are happy fine, great - but I don't get the defending of this system. Obviously other guilds are fine as well in managing the issues it presents as multiple guilds have more players than you and have been together for a while and are doing more T7 raids at a guild level, but being able to manage something doesn't mean it's a good system.
There is a small meager band forming for MC 3 now actually. You underestimate the number of lower level players out there who want to be apart of something better, but you may be shielded from the fact when you force people to fill out an application. The model above is an inclusive model that does not segregate the big spenders and the casual players. It allows everyone to fellowship and share ideas and try out new things. Is it ideal, no. However it works for the way the game is set up.
Our guild has never used applications. Our less intense guild has never done more than a T6 and one of our teams as originally founded was almost completely devoid of whales; mostly moderate, low or no spend players. So we are absolutely very inclusive at an overall guild level.
I think at this point you are taking my attacks against he system and challenge of your opinion that the system is great as an attack against your current method of navigating the system.
Whether I underestimate the number of low level players wanting to join or not, the fact is that in order for you to make that work as a permanent strategy you guys will have to continually create new teams and shift players. So 6-9 months from now, are you guys really going to be running 8-9 teams consisting of over 400 players and planning to create more? If not, than where will the progressing worker bees go to get in on top 10 rewards once they build up their rosters? Can't we just fix the system to be better?
We run 16 guilds now without a problem, 5 of which do heroics. Just takes a little coordination and like minded people
I'll pray for you that CG doesn't switch the system much or change raids often that require different tactics. You will have a very large ship to turn around.
I would like to talk with someone from Order 66 to see how much coordination they do between the different guilds or if both are relatively autonomous of each other though.
We have frequent discussions to optimize across the teams.
Lots of good people. Nothing to brag about really, just where we've grown to
That's good for you - but, I like to take things to an extreme when analyzing the situation to see if it makes sense. I'm not debating the method you guys have for the current system - I've said before the OP's suggestion is a good one for the top players. But let's assume everyone reads this and takes your approach. All guilds current start creating 10-20 teams. That will consume an incredible amount of players - at some point there will be no worker bee players game-wide to sustain the team growth needed to have a mixed guild. And what happens to the mixed guild approach when a mixed guild doesn't work efficiently on a given raid?
Now, @LordAlvert has said they will re-form a team - but Opusone you have so many teams and players. Are you really going to shuffle all those chairs to optimize for raids as they change? If not, each of your individual teams will lag behind the other's that do. It's possible, but a process is only shown to be strong or optimal once it's stressed. Change is stress. Approaches that are optimal now may not work or may not be optimal going forward.
I don't see how each guild having the option to add on a huge number of teams is the solution that people are okay with long term. Why the opposition for having team goals of some sort? I'm starting to think the guys getting the top 10 rewards on the backs of others - whether they are complicit in it or not - are protecting their own personal interests. They don't want to risk the system changing for the better of all because the current system as it is permits them to profit personally to a great deal.
After reading through all of this @JohnnySteelAlpha has your number.
He is correct and from the sounds of it he is looking out for his fellow guildies. While @LordAlvert you seem willing to keep splitting your own apart.
ANZ we run three guilds two on 7 and i feel sorry for anyone that can't sit in top 10 because of it. The reward and tier system is very very silly and especially since in the end everyone wants to further their roster over others.
We get along like chips and gravy and love it but alot of people are not happy that they helped with the coins. But couldn't get top 10 because we all have good rosters.
A simple and easy solution to this entire problem relies in two steps.
Step 1: The leaderboard is great way to make competition as long as it doesn't stop people from progression.
So leader boards should only dictate ( Credits , Shards and Guild tokens). Everyone should receive the same chests at the end as everyone put in the credits and worked as a team to clear it.
Step 2 : A simple idea like this to help ward off further problems with the brick wall and to allow those who do not want to be in a guild to stay up.
I do hope that those at CG know these issues here and know that we are not all willing to settle for this system although i love raids lol. @EA_Jesse @CG_JohnSalera @CG_NotReallyAJedi
1) Do not just Zerg the heroic. Organize guys and take turns. Be on a guild that doesn't Zerg heroic.
2) Break your guild apart when you have 5 good phase one teams and more than 6-7 whales of squads with 40 plus seven stars. You get double the rewards for the top squads and double the Han shards. Not worth it to have 35 seven stars and be out of the top 10. I would immediately leave any guild like that. Why pay to lose? Top 10 rewards much better after that steep drop off.
3) Look for excellent guild leaders that have the whole guild in control and people are organized and fair.
4) Line or better yet discord is absolutely critical.
5) Guys really should be having fun. Great comraderie is essential.
6) Key to above is all the guys happy with their spots. Like a basketball team.
7) Friendly to your timezone. Our smart leaders set up a European guild to help the USA players. Brilliant.
This is what we do with the exception of #2. It's sad that guilds are separated in order to maximize the guild benefits for all. This really needs to be remedied since it's a design flaw not a feature. If people want to have all whales, they should be able to do so without suffering an imbalance in rewards.
A relatively simple fix to this would be to structure the raid rewards based on damage in each phase. Have 4 phases, then split the rewards into 4 phases (like GW), where damage thresholds determine your reward. This increases everyone's participation in every phase, and people are not really competing with their fellow guild members but in order to improve their own abilities.
I think some people misinterpret what Lord Alvert says, he is not claiming the system to be perfect , but rather is offering solutions as to how to handle what we do have.
I think everyone on here would like some sort of guild vs guild challenge component.
It is so rare to see positive comments toward the developers as they are drowned out by the sea of negativity. I applaud lord Alvert for making an uplifting post, and the jovial attitude with which he has displayed.
I think some people misinterpret what Lord Alvert says, he is not claiming the system to be perfect , but rather is offering solutions as to how to handle what we do have.
I think everyone on here would like some sort of guild vs guild challenge component.
It is so rare to see positive comments toward the developers as they are drowned out by the sea of negativity. I applaud lord Alvert for making an uplifting post, and the jovial attitude with which he has displayed.
I agree with this statement in general and your defense of Lord Alvert - my only counter would be that initially Lord Alvert defended the system. I think his expression that he's having a great time and that his guild is having a good time is fantastic. I think many of us agree we are having fun overall raiding and with our teams. I also agree with his general suggestions / recommendations - where I differ is in the contention that the system shouldn't be changed and my primary concern with the system is how it severely lacks components that reward the greater team.
If you are pay to win... Find a mixed guild ASAP! Spoken as a guy with 100++ Han shards!!! Unlock this week!!!!!!!!
This should be common sense, so I often wonder why so many whale guilds only accept people with 20+ 7*. I'm sure there's a logical explanation for it but you'd think they'd rather have a few bottom feeders to take the lower spots. You really don't need that many 7* total to clear a raid quickly.
Thanks for all the DMs guys. If anyone reading this and wants to be a part of it keep DM ing me on the forums. We are always under expansion. We have the firepower.
@LordAlvert So what you think you're suggesting is that everyone should do what works best for them; but what you are really suggesting is that you should find 9 other capable rosters and take advantage of 40 other players who don't know better. FTP don't need whales to do this content.
@benacrow If you are FTP and reading this thread you can do better. Heroic is easy as hell. My son joined a random guild off the in-game guild finder and finishes 2-5 in T7. He is probably gonna 7* Han Solo before me. LOL. And he has maybe $50 invested in his account.
Step 1: The leaderboard is great way to make competition as long as it doesn't stop people from progression.
So leader boards should only dictate ( Credits , Shards and Guild tokens). Everyone should receive the same chests at the end as everyone put in the credits and worked as a team to clear it.
I like this idea. I think fixing this scale and then layering on top of the rewards some kind of overall team accomplishment component - maybe at the end of the month for your team rank - would go a long way in making the rewards more constructive for a team.
Step 1: The leaderboard is great way to make competition as long as it doesn't stop people from progression.
So leader boards should only dictate ( Credits , Shards and Guild tokens). Everyone should receive the same chests at the end as everyone put in the credits and worked as a team to clear it.
I like this idea. I think fixing this scale and then layering on top of the rewards some kind of overall team accomplishment component - maybe at the end of the month for your team rank - would go a long way in making the rewards more constructive for a team.
Indeed i am very against this find 9 and take advantage of 40 people deal. I believe in teamwork and that it should be rewarded as such.
Reading this thread left me gob smacked, imagine if this was done in world of warcraft...
@LordAlvert So what you think you're suggesting is that everyone should do what works best for them; but what you are really suggesting is that you should find 9 other capable rosters and take advantage of 40 other players who don't know better. FTP don't need whales to do this content.
@benacrow If you are FTP and reading this thread you can do better. Heroic is easy as hell. My son joined a random guild off the in-game guild finder and finishes 2-5 in T7. He is probably gonna 7* Han Solo before me. LOL. And he has maybe $50 invested in his account.
Absolutely ridiculous. 50 Ftp can't clear heroic alone even if they started day 1. It is possible maybe in a month or so. It's getting there. 47 and 3 p2w yeah fine. Be real. @benacrow is in a guild trying to make the minimum amount of p2w to barely clear heroics and then split when damage too high. This is perfect game theory. He will be top ten in his guild soon. He knows the squads he needs.
We want guys that are on tier 4's. Even @JohnnySteelAlpha sees that we will run out of those players if system stays this way. But for now this is META.
@LordAlvert I don't think it is as ridiculous as you think it is. Look at these massive damage numbers! You can put up 500k+ pretty easily in P1 with Phasma, QGJ, Rey, GS, AA.
@LordAlvert I don't think it is as ridiculous as you think it is. Look at these massive damage numbers! You can put up 500k+ pretty easily in P1 with Phasma, QGJ, Rey, GS, AA.
@LordAlvert I don't think it is as ridiculous as you think it is. Look at these massive damage numbers! You can put up 500k+ pretty easily in P1 with Phasma, QGJ, Rey, GS, AA.
Phase one is easy to clear with 5 guys yes ftp. That is obvious.
The issue is the depth for 2,3,4 for a truly f2p guild. When a guild has spend no money 100pct f2p I expect they will come to forums to crow about it.
I still think the 120-130 rosters is a month away for a 100 pct ftp guild.
I am curious how many people throwing around the term pyramid scheme are truly in a mixed guild? The FTP in our guild are fine with the whales getting the top rewards. If they wanted better rewards they are fully aware they could put a lot of money into the game, but they choose not to do it.
Just as an addendum:
CEO
COO
Several Vice Presidents
Slightly more regional managers
Even more district managers
Very large base of workers in the field.
(Most companies are not much different than a pyramid if you think about)
Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme which is slightly different.
I am curious how many people throwing around the term pyramid scheme are truly in a mixed guild? The FTP in our guild are fine with the whales getting the top rewards. If they wanted better rewards they are fully aware they could put a lot of money into the game, but they choose not to do it.
Just as an addendum:
CEO
COO
Several Vice Presidents
Slightly more regional managers
Even more district managers
Very large base of workers in the field.
(Most companies are not much different than a pyramid if you think about)
Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme which is slightly different.
It's all good until it crumbles. That's the scheme. As long as the bottom believe they are Being treated well--They are happy. The top are happy because they get the best rewards with the help from the much larger percentage of the bottom half.
It's when the game flips the script and the whales can no longer carry 45 others that it will get bad. That's the ponzi bubble busting. All the lower players will still want rewards but the top will not be able to deliver. Hence the scheme. So they will have to cut loose and form back up to a top heavy guild to get rewards. If this is not visible, then there is nothing more I can do.
@Nebulous I still think you misunderstand the fundamental differences between the two, at least in the actual business sense. Maybe that is why the analogy to the guild system seems to not align.
I don't know where you work, but chances are, your boss makes more than you and everyone equal to your level. This is how most workplaces operate, granted minor exceptions. Everyone gets paid, not at the same level. This is how the free market has operated for decades and hasn't collapsed yet.
When has there been any evidence that the game will radically change to favor all whale guilds? Perhaps you are close to the developers and know what is coming down the pike.
@Nebulous I still think you misunderstand the fundamental differences between the two, at least in the actual business sense. Maybe that is why the analogy to the guild system seems to not align.
I don't know where you work, but chances are, your boss makes more than you and everyone equal to your level. This is how most workplaces operate, granted minor exceptions. Everyone gets paid, not at the same level. This is how the free market has operated for decades and hasn't collapsed yet.
When has there been any evidence that the game will radically change to favor all whale guilds? Perhaps you are close to the developers and know what is coming down the pike.
All we are saying is you guys are not creating a group of ppl that will be together no matter what.
There is no cohesion, no unity, just take whoever will contribute as long as it helps, until it helps.
You guys are short term opportunistic that take advantage of the less powerful teams and will dump them the minute things go hard (if ever)...
And that is sad ... (At least in the view of all of us that are criticizing this system)
Replies
Actually, I was referring to him in one instance of my post and a member of team instinct in the other. The quote that I pulled was from him, but I failed to differentiate it from the application comment. So he assumed I was referring to him which is understandable given the circumstances. When he pointed it out, I sought to tell him that bit was not intended for him but was for a team instinct member which does in fact share the same view on the subject matter.
/thread
There is nothing I can complain about with such great drops, but I can see why whale guilds would be disappointed (less than desired salvage, i.e. 15 instead of 40 average salvage per). Hence why mixed guilds are the most ideal.
FTP don't feel they deserve top 20 rewards, so we're happy getting these rewards since we're where we should be.
I'll pray for you that CG doesn't switch the system much or change raids often that require different tactics. You will have a very large ship to turn around.
We have frequent discussions to optimize across the teams.
That's good for you - but, I like to take things to an extreme when analyzing the situation to see if it makes sense. I'm not debating the method you guys have for the current system - I've said before the OP's suggestion is a good one for the top players. But let's assume everyone reads this and takes your approach. All guilds current start creating 10-20 teams. That will consume an incredible amount of players - at some point there will be no worker bee players game-wide to sustain the team growth needed to have a mixed guild. And what happens to the mixed guild approach when a mixed guild doesn't work efficiently on a given raid?
Now, @LordAlvert has said they will re-form a team - but Opusone you have so many teams and players. Are you really going to shuffle all those chairs to optimize for raids as they change? If not, each of your individual teams will lag behind the other's that do. It's possible, but a process is only shown to be strong or optimal once it's stressed. Change is stress. Approaches that are optimal now may not work or may not be optimal going forward.
I don't see how each guild having the option to add on a huge number of teams is the solution that people are okay with long term. Why the opposition for having team goals of some sort? I'm starting to think the guys getting the top 10 rewards on the backs of others - whether they are complicit in it or not - are protecting their own personal interests. They don't want to risk the system changing for the better of all because the current system as it is permits them to profit personally to a great deal.
He is correct and from the sounds of it he is looking out for his fellow guildies. While @LordAlvert you seem willing to keep splitting your own apart.
ANZ we run three guilds two on 7 and i feel sorry for anyone that can't sit in top 10 because of it. The reward and tier system is very very silly and especially since in the end everyone wants to further their roster over others.
We get along like chips and gravy and love it but alot of people are not happy that they helped with the coins. But couldn't get top 10 because we all have good rosters.
A simple and easy solution to this entire problem relies in two steps.
Step 1: The leaderboard is great way to make competition as long as it doesn't stop people from progression.
So leader boards should only dictate ( Credits , Shards and Guild tokens). Everyone should receive the same chests at the end as everyone put in the credits and worked as a team to clear it.
Step 2 : A simple idea like this to help ward off further problems with the brick wall and to allow those who do not want to be in a guild to stay up.
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/35850/adding-a-new-way-to-progress-using-your-different-tokens/p1
I do hope that those at CG know these issues here and know that we are not all willing to settle for this system although i love raids lol.
@EA_Jesse
@CG_JohnSalera
@CG_NotReallyAJedi
This is what we do with the exception of #2. It's sad that guilds are separated in order to maximize the guild benefits for all. This really needs to be remedied since it's a design flaw not a feature. If people want to have all whales, they should be able to do so without suffering an imbalance in rewards.
A relatively simple fix to this would be to structure the raid rewards based on damage in each phase. Have 4 phases, then split the rewards into 4 phases (like GW), where damage thresholds determine your reward. This increases everyone's participation in every phase, and people are not really competing with their fellow guild members but in order to improve their own abilities.
This increases game engagement.
I think everyone on here would like some sort of guild vs guild challenge component.
It is so rare to see positive comments toward the developers as they are drowned out by the sea of negativity. I applaud lord Alvert for making an uplifting post, and the jovial attitude with which he has displayed.
I agree with this statement in general and your defense of Lord Alvert - my only counter would be that initially Lord Alvert defended the system. I think his expression that he's having a great time and that his guild is having a good time is fantastic. I think many of us agree we are having fun overall raiding and with our teams. I also agree with his general suggestions / recommendations - where I differ is in the contention that the system shouldn't be changed and my primary concern with the system is how it severely lacks components that reward the greater team.
This should be common sense, so I often wonder why so many whale guilds only accept people with 20+ 7*. I'm sure there's a logical explanation for it but you'd think they'd rather have a few bottom feeders to take the lower spots. You really don't need that many 7* total to clear a raid quickly.
@benacrow If you are FTP and reading this thread you can do better. Heroic is easy as hell. My son joined a random guild off the in-game guild finder and finishes 2-5 in T7. He is probably gonna 7* Han Solo before me. LOL. And he has maybe $50 invested in his account.
I like this idea. I think fixing this scale and then layering on top of the rewards some kind of overall team accomplishment component - maybe at the end of the month for your team rank - would go a long way in making the rewards more constructive for a team.
Indeed i am very against this find 9 and take advantage of 40 people deal. I believe in teamwork and that it should be rewarded as such.
Reading this thread left me gob smacked, imagine if this was done in world of warcraft...
Absolutely ridiculous. 50 Ftp can't clear heroic alone even if they started day 1. It is possible maybe in a month or so. It's getting there. 47 and 3 p2w yeah fine. Be real. @benacrow is in a guild trying to make the minimum amount of p2w to barely clear heroics and then split when damage too high. This is perfect game theory. He will be top ten in his guild soon. He knows the squads he needs.
We want guys that are on tier 4's. Even @JohnnySteelAlpha sees that we will run out of those players if system stays this way. But for now this is META.
Most effective technique available. For all.
The bottom 30 get so many more full gear drops. They are the ones totally flush on Nubians. They need the furnaces that the whales eschew.
This time not sure if i should "lol" or not...
@LordAlvert I don't think it is as ridiculous as you think it is.
Looks like Mol Eliza kicked **** in that raid.
Phase one is easy to clear with 5 guys yes ftp. That is obvious.
The issue is the depth for 2,3,4 for a truly f2p guild. When a guild has spend no money 100pct f2p I expect they will come to forums to crow about it.
I still think the 120-130 rosters is a month away for a 100 pct ftp guild.
All the whales will want to be together to beat the raid. And all Those ftp who have been feeding your whales better gear will be left all dried up?
I am sure they will all be super happy to be adondoned. Your looking at the "meta" now, but that is backwards. Always look to the future.
I am happy with how TI is handling raiding. I feel sorry for those that are falling for this pyramid scheme. Consider Madoff as your in game name.
Just as an addendum:
CEO
COO
Several Vice Presidents
Slightly more regional managers
Even more district managers
Very large base of workers in the field.
(Most companies are not much different than a pyramid if you think about)
Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme which is slightly different.
It's all good until it crumbles. That's the scheme. As long as the bottom believe they are Being treated well--They are happy. The top are happy because they get the best rewards with the help from the much larger percentage of the bottom half.
It's when the game flips the script and the whales can no longer carry 45 others that it will get bad. That's the ponzi bubble busting. All the lower players will still want rewards but the top will not be able to deliver. Hence the scheme. So they will have to cut loose and form back up to a top heavy guild to get rewards. If this is not visible, then there is nothing more I can do.
I don't know where you work, but chances are, your boss makes more than you and everyone equal to your level. This is how most workplaces operate, granted minor exceptions. Everyone gets paid, not at the same level. This is how the free market has operated for decades and hasn't collapsed yet.
When has there been any evidence that the game will radically change to favor all whale guilds? Perhaps you are close to the developers and know what is coming down the pike.
All we are saying is you guys are not creating a group of ppl that will be together no matter what.
There is no cohesion, no unity, just take whoever will contribute as long as it helps, until it helps.
You guys are short term opportunistic that take advantage of the less powerful teams and will dump them the minute things go hard (if ever)...
And that is sad ... (At least in the view of all of us that are criticizing this system)