Nerfing strong players like FOTP is stu pid, he has very little armour if you fear him get a fast team get his **** out of there THATS ALL he has got is a hit. If all characters were same or similar imagine how boring the game would be!!! I like seeing a FOTP makes me shutter a bit, I have FOTP Maul, Ren, Who are you targeting?? Makes it more fun .. Tank up with a healer and a couple of hitters you now have a longer played out game esp if they are speedy!! So many out comes.. I'm running Han as a leader for his leader skills, his defence allows my back row get going Hans like a big punching bag!.. Nerfing characters is just stu pid.... Build a team to cope not all teams will be effective against all opposition
His damage is simply way too high. Consistent 8.5k crits without offense up/expose/assist bonus/leader skill isn't fair. HP at 10.5k is just gravy.
Normally I'd agree about nerfing but if there's one character who needs it it's FOTP.
Nerfing strong players like FOTP is stu pid, he has very little armour if you fear him get a fast team get his **** out of there THATS ALL he has got is a hit. If all characters were same or similar imagine how boring the game would be!!! I like seeing a FOTP makes me shutter a bit, I have FOTP Maul, Ren, Who are you targeting?? Makes it more fun .. Tank up with a healer and a couple of hitters you now have a longer played out game esp if they are speedy!! So many out comes.. I'm running Han as a leader for his leader skills, his defence allows my back row get going Hans like a big punching bag!.. Nerfing characters is just stu pid.... Build a team to cope not all teams will be effective against all opposition
His damage is simply way too high. Consistent 8.5k crits without offense up/expose/assist bonus/leader skill isn't fair. HP at 10.5k is just gravy.
Normally I'd agree about nerfing but if there's one character who needs it it's FOTP.
Then nobody will use him he will be useless.
Qui-Gon progress in cantina currently 4* gear lvl 7.
A)
Contrary to belief, our team studies ALL characters and ALL comps day in and day out. We have breakdowns of every single character based on stats not just to 70, but to level 100, and we use this to analyze comparisons and breakdowns across the board to try and spot strengths / weaknesses / issues etc. You don't see all of this, because you aren't on our team and we don't care about what you think of our work, but discrediting our research on Poe because of your individual assertions is ignoring an entire team of 40+ diligently putting work in to assessing the strongest comps and characters possible as a group for your own needless ends at making it seem like "you know better". Well, in this case, you don't.
Dude - you're now suggesting that your 40+ players have more information than all players in the forum and other guilds combined - what we should all just blindly follow team instinct? You guys have nice players, but you guys are behind meta bro. Sorry to tell you, but your team is not all knowing superior.
I've been reading stuff and I like you guys - I wish you well, but let's take a look at some threads.
Here's Hatto proclaiming this as the best meter team in PVP - it wasn't. He and all you guys didn't know about FOO apparently (unless it'a different Hatto in your guild than ignore this).
They do work - they just don't work the way you want them to or think that they did. They don't impact starting speed - I assumed they did to honestly, but they don't. Fine. They do work though and after thinking about it that's probably best as speed leaders that would add to starting speed would just make the game even more about speed starting the match.
Look, you guys do some great stuff and have great players - don't get me wrong there - but you are not THE authority on all things in the game bro. In fact, you've missed a few things even. You're not the only smart guys in the room. The rest of the guilds and forum aren't monkeys.
Are players not allowed to make their own posts and have original ideas? Are we supposed to police everyone and only allow them to make posts if it 100% agrees with all of us as a group?
I clearly say in that post they aren't working because they don't apply to the first turn. Do you actually bother to read entire posts or do you just take bits and pieces to fit an argument to your liking? They don't work right at the moment, why you keep arguing this is beyond me. They. Don't. Work. Properly. If they actually said "Grants speed AFTER THEY TAKE AN ACTION" in the description of the skill, it would be working properly.
They don't impact starting speed - I assumed they did to honestly, but they don't.
Thank you for pointing something out I've had screenshot proof of for quite some time now.
There are spreadsheets available for PUBLIC USE out there in the wild that show gear to level 100, and yeah we have that. So what? Go find them yourself if you'd like to see them, it's not hard.
We know about FOO's speed breaks to level 100 and how his damage will scale as well. Do you? Did you even have the slightest notion of how his Turn Meter ability worked before we showed you a breakdown of how Speed even works in this game? I seriously doubt it.
We're not the authority, but we certainly aren't making statements without reasons for doing so. NO one in this post has still made a single case against anything to do with Poe at 70 and for some bizarre, crazy reason everyone seems to think the case is closed.
We love Poe for what he is - a somewhat tanky tank with a fast Taunt, a decent amount of offensive capability (expose is awesome) and Offense Down at a pretty high rate is quite useful. He also has a lot of Tenacity which means he's harder to dispel, so he's even better at his job. He's great.
I would agree that at level 70 it would be better if he kept his same speed and didn't gain additional speed....HOWEVER...my main concern is end game. What if at gear 9 Poe's 143 speed becomes much slower relatively speaking? This could be because of other toons getting speed on gear 9, new toons released, old toons buffed with new mechanics, etc. I just don't want a premature nerf on a character that later proves to be unnecessary just because we are playing an immature game right now. Barriss is the key example. Heal meta and her low damage are so far from being OP in PVP it's ridiculous. It's possible her old heal may have been good enough to still make her at least an option in PVP and keep healing relevant. Still would be sketchy given her weak damage, but she'd have a better shot anyway.
I'd be happy with a Poe freeze at 137 temporarily as at 143 he will be tough based on what we know now (again, we don't know all information so that's risky that we assume), but I'd hate to see that planned speed get permanently chopped before we are really at a good point to estimate Poe's value in a more mature game.
We love Poe for what he is - a somewhat tanky tank with a fast Taunt, a decent amount of offensive capability (expose is awesome) and Offense Down at a pretty high rate is quite useful. He also has a lot of Tenacity which means he's harder to dispel, so he's even better at his job. He's great.
I would agree that at level 70 it would be better if he kept his same speed and didn't gain additional speed....HOWEVER...my main concern is end game. What if at gear 9 Poe's 143 speed becomes much slower relatively speaking? This could be because of other toons getting speed on gear 9, new toons released, old toons buffed with new mechanics, etc. I just don't want a premature nerf on a character that later proves to be unnecessary just because we are playing an immature game right now. Barriss is the key example. Heal meta and her low damage are so far from being OP in PVP it's ridiculous. It's possible her old heal may have been good enough to still make her at least an option in PVP and keep healing relevant. Still would be sketchy given her weak damage, but she'd have a better shot anyway.
I'd be happy with a Poe freeze at 137 temporarily as at 143 he will be tough based on what we know now (again, we don't know all information so that's risky that we assume), but I'd hate to see that planned speed get permanently chopped before we are really at a good point to estimate Poe's value in a more mature game.
Currently only two characters in the entire game ever break round 6 at level 100. There are about 10...? I think that hit round 7.
Until we see more characters introduced with speeds beyond 143 and 167 Poe will still be in the top % of fast characters, and only TWO will ever be faster than him unless major changes happen.
Bonkers...or just has additional information? I think anyone making a proclamation that something is broke at this moment is bonkers..or just really overestimating their knowledge base because most players have very little of the roster actually built and we don't have the bulk of all toons in the population that CG is going to release. TIE is balanced in that he's slow....you can run circles around him and keep him from getting advantage. You can also use damage down characters to make him hit much lower - TIE without damage is barely more than a speed bump. Keep in mind, more toons will be released and others buffed as time goes on. In the upper meta across the broader roster, TIE is already passed and just a solid toon. Just as Lumi was passed, Barriss, Dooku, etc....now, like others he may also come back. He has one great skill - strong damage. That's it guys. You nerf his hitting power and he doesn't have anything else to add.
You guys have nice players, but you guys are behind meta bro.
You've successfully managed to get under my skin with this quote by the way, so congrats to that.
Again, let me say this as clearly as I can - We are trying to help the community by pointing out things we consider to be problems coming in the future. We do not care at all about this current meta. We aren't even testing for this meta any more. Taking #1 on all servers we play on is a joke - it's just a game of hop scotch. No teams can properly defend right now in this meta and no matter how hard you try, you'll be beaten. So we're over it, we're just going through the motions right now and focusing entirely on level 70 only for meta purposes.
To say this puts us BEHIND the meta is so ****-backwards that it's actually insulting. We're messing around in a meta that doesn't even exist yet and we found something we consider to be an issue for the game.
You do realize we didn't have to say anything, right? If we were really just concerned about winning, we would just smile and nod and not say a peep about Poe. I mean, after all, if he's SO STRONG like we're suggesting at 70, why are we even taking a second to touch on our concerns about him publicly?
The answer is that, contrary to apparent popular belief, we actually want to see great things from this game. We want to acknowledge what could be an issue and try to **** it in the butt before it becomes a live problem and requires a backwards action nerf to fix. WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE. Stop fighting us on this for absolutely no reason and start listening to what we're saying. In the same breath, you're openly stating you think Jedi allowing Speed on the first round of actions "would lead to problems because then the meta would just be about getting the strongest abilities to go first" and we're literally saying POE WILL ALLOW THE META TO BECOME ALL ABOUT GETTING THE STRONGEST ABILITIES TO GO FIRST. How can you claim one thing is too powerful and then immediately say the same scenario in a different bag is not?!
Are players not allowed to make their own posts and have original ideas? Are we supposed to police everyone and only allow them to make posts if it 100% agrees with all of us as a group?
I clearly say in that post they aren't working because they don't apply to the first turn. Do you actually bother to read entire posts or do you just take bits and pieces to fit an argument to your liking? They don't work right at the moment, why you keep arguing this is beyond me. They. Don't. Work. Properly. If they actually said "Grants speed AFTER THEY TAKE AN ACTION" in the description of the skill, it would be working properly.
They don't impact starting speed - I assumed they did to honestly, but they don't.
Thank you for pointing something out I've had screenshot proof of for quite some time now.
There are spreadsheets available for PUBLIC USE out there in the wild that show gear to level 100, and yeah we have that. So what? Go find them yourself if you'd like to see them, it's not hard.
We know about FOO's speed breaks to level 100 and how his damage will scale as well. Do you? Did you even have the slightest notion of how his Turn Meter ability worked before we showed you a breakdown of how Speed even works in this game? I seriously doubt it.
We're not the authority, but we certainly aren't making statements without reasons for doing so. NO one in this post has still made a single case against anything to do with Poe at 70 and for some bizarre, crazy reason everyone seems to think the case is closed.
Dude - we knew speed leaders didn't impact starting speed weeks before you posted those screen shots. Since Poe was in our server almost day 1 on his release, guys were already planning counters past him from that exact moment nearly 4 weeks ago. Ackbar + Han for example. Didn't work as the leader ability doesn't impact starting speed. Also, you're ASSUMING that the speed leader doesn't work properly. The speed leader description doesn't say that it does or doesn't add to starting speed - just says they get more speed. They do work and have an action though so calling them broke is a half-truth at best and more likely just a bad assumption on your part in how the mechanic is intended to work.
Good try on the FOO topic - so I point out a miss in a post from your team about meter teams and you try to then quiz me and take the higher authority ground and cover up an honest mistake or oversight by Hatto. I appreciate that Hatto posted that team. I'm not trying to bash anyone so I apologize Hatto - but Naec you're trying to beat the forum over the head with this entitled superiority speech and saying how omnipotent your team's knowledge base is and I'm just saying...hey...other people know stuff too.
On the meter / speed question - I'd like to thank im2awesome and Haider for having great meter / speed leader based teams early on in the game. Im2 I think had a 7* Obi Wan like the first week or so of hard launch. Seeing his mind tricks in action that has meter control and then later version of Ben with a Jinn leader was very informative. As I mentioned in another thread - I'm very privileged to be on a very competitive server and it was that way from day 1. Also, just FYI - I came to SW already in a guild of gamers with more players than what instinct has right now. High level players as well that are smart guys and gals. I've had access to a pool of knowledge and broad base of SW toons - actual feedback from results not just speculating on toons looking at a spreadsheet - since the game started. So you ask me was I aware of speed and its impact and how it worked before your post...yes, yes I was quite aware of the impact of speed, turn meter manipulation, and how it functions in SW. I'll give a concrete example. A great player of ours, Ghost Chili - he had identified ST Han like the first week of playing SW and had him 6* early on before anyone was asking about him on the forums and was utilizing the Han trap. That was deep in the period when Barriss and healing was all OP and well before you guys even formed your guild.
Look, you guys have a great guild and players with great teams - you will be very competitive and maybe even be #1 - who knows. However, assuming that everyone else is a noob and lost without the guidance of instinct's latest article is pretty conceited.
I, as a very light spender, was just thinking about a few of these characters.
Lately, many of my arena matches have come down to which Poe goes first. That future doesn't sound good to me either. I'd prefer to have some other ability besides turn meter manipulation attached to the taunt to help mitigate feelings of loss by players. Team buff? Anyone have a balanced suggestion?
Fix Leia and she will see more balanced use.
Is it true that FOTP has his agility and strength stats flipped on star 7? If so, I'd label that a bug, switch them back to bring his hp down. If not, I'd agree with tuning him down on HP and the overkill proc.
Hey hey, let's not get cute - you're the one kicking off the "lol you must be a noob" **** by insinuating we've "never heard of FOO."
but Naec you're trying to beat the forum over the head with this entitled superiority speech and saying how omnipotent your team's knowledge base is and I'm just saying...hey...other people know stuff too.
Don't start twisting my defense of our knowledge base and accusatory statements (yes I was clearly being aggressive) as entitlement. YOU started throwing the daggers at US with comments like
You guys have nice players, but you guys are behind meta bro.
He and all you guys didn't know about FOO apparently
Adding in cute little quips about how you need to "take a look at some of our threads" like we're **** (threads just suggesting teams for discussion or pointing out something that's not working because it's, you know, not working) to try and take the higher ground. And we're the elitists?
It's not really an exaggeration if we have the information we claim to have, and we do, so what's the problem here? You've made multiple posts in this thread alone saying we "shouldn't be quick to rush judgment since we don't have a picture of how it looks all the way to 100" and we're saying we uhh... we do. Yeah. We do? So what's the problem here. Am I supposed to say we don't? Am I supposed to pretend our opinions on the topic at hand of Poe are not founded on actual concrete game files currently in place? Was it wrong to explain that we actually, you know, have a reason to make these assertions instead of just making them based on nothing?
Stop twisting your own elitist arrogance and attacks as being this one sided thing only coming from us.
You guys have nice players, but you guys are behind meta bro.
The answer is that, contrary to apparent popular belief, we actually want to see great things from this game. We want to acknowledge what could be an issue and try to **** it in the butt before it becomes a live problem and requires a backwards action nerf to fix. WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE. Stop fighting us on this for absolutely no reason and start listening to what we're saying. In the same breath, you're openly stating you think Jedi allowing Speed on the first round of actions "would lead to problems because then the meta would just be about getting the strongest abilities to go first" and we're literally saying POE WILL ALLOW THE META TO BECOME ALL ABOUT GETTING THE STRONGEST ABILITIES TO GO FIRST. How can you claim one thing is too powerful and then immediately say the same scenario in a different bag is not?!
Never said Poe at 143 for level 70 wouldn't be a monster. Assuming nothing else changes, no new mechanics are introduced, no new toons are introduced that address him, no old toons are buffed - so hold everything as is essentially and just boost Poe's speed higher - yes I agree he's probably too fast and would likely need a nerf or at least would be high in line for one...for that given level and point in time. What I'm arguing though is we don't have sufficient info on end game - forget 60/70 - to ask for nerfs. No more Barriss mega nerfs on toons that later aren't even OP at a top meta level. So I'll state clearly: I'm not disagreeing with you assessment of Poe at 70 with 143 speed - he will be a beast - but I just differ in thinking that lvl 70 2 months in to the game with so few toons overall built is a sufficient enough base of knowledge to start swinging the nerf bat. CG moved way too early on Barriss and I'd like to not see that again. Let's at least get there and then make adjustments based on actual data. We shouldn't nerf based on projections.
I also want to say, it may seem that many of us are overreacting to ewok and within this thread that may be true if this was the only context. Reason being though is gaming companies when they bring out the nerf bat often will swing it really heavy and massively disrupt the value of the toon. I can't see them taking the time to adjust Poe and move his speed down one digit.
Hey hey, let's not get cute - you're the one kicking off the "lol you must be a noob" **** by insinuating we've "never heard of FOO."
but Naec you're trying to beat the forum over the head with this entitled superiority speech and saying how omnipotent your team's knowledge base is and I'm just saying...hey...other people know stuff too.
Don't start twisting my defense of our knowledge base and accusatory statements (yes I was clearly being aggressive) as entitlement. YOU started throwing the daggers at US with comments like
You guys have nice players, but you guys are behind meta bro.
He and all you guys didn't know about FOO apparently
Adding in cute little quips about how you need to "take a look at some of our threads" like we're **** (threads just suggesting teams for discussion or pointing out something that's not working because it's, you know, not working) to try and take the higher ground. And we're the elitists?
It's not really an exaggeration if we have the information we claim to have, and we do, so what's the problem here? You've made multiple posts in this thread alone saying we "shouldn't be quick to rush judgment since we don't have a picture of how it looks all the way to 100" and we're saying we uhh... we do. Yeah. We do? So what's the problem here. Am I supposed to say we don't? Am I supposed to pretend our opinions on the topic at hand of Poe are not founded on actual concrete game files currently in place? Was it wrong to explain that we actually, you know, have a reason to make these assertions instead of just making them based on nothing?
Stop twisting your own elitist arrogance and attacks as being this one sided thing only coming from us.
You my friend started the issue here by talking down to everyone not agreeing with your position:
"It's become very clear that a lot of people on these forums are simply terrible at the art of theorycrafting."
That's your comment sir. That's not elitist? Your last paragraph then ends with the point essentially that you are in this great group of 40+ people that knows better than others....because you end by saying "well, in this case, you don't." You talk down to people. You don't think folks are going to respond to that and call you out?
It's not really an exaggeration if we have the information we claim to have, and we do, so what's the problem here? You've made multiple posts in this thread alone saying we "shouldn't be quick to rush judgment since we don't have a picture of how it looks all the way to 100" and we're saying we uhh... we do. Yeah. We do? So what's the problem here. Am I supposed to say we don't? Am I supposed to pretend our opinions on the topic at hand of Poe are not founded on actual concrete game files currently in place? Was it wrong to explain that we actually, you know, have a reason to make these assertions instead of just making them based on nothing?
Stop twisting your own elitist arrogance and attacks as being this one sided thing only coming from us.
Never said you weren't basing them on anything concrete...but just know that data files like this in games - have experience with CG data files for years now - may not actually be final and make it in the game. Everyone with these files - may not know as much as they think they know. Now...I don't know either - - just have past experience from other CG games that this data can and has changed greatly once it actually got to production. Heck, you may even be correct here - but I just don't think we have the sufficient information at this time to make nerf calls and especially to not be so certain and confident about it.
I came in to the thread and admittedly got put on tilt pretty quickly because of early comments like
This is laughable... learn to adapt.
which truthfully had me seeing red very quickly. Yeah, maybe a comment of saying a lot of people are terrible at theorycrafting was guns blazing aggressive, but are you really going to be instantly bent out of shape over such a broad, stupid comment? I wasn't pinpointing anyone and was basically just firing shots (admittedly) because I didn't like people coming at Ewok the way they were.
Elyndria basically insinuated very strongly that we only care about this Poe thing because we're in a spot where we don't want to see some mystery magic team we have in our pocket be threatened by him, as if we don't experiment with a broader pool of characters and we're just one note one mindset drones pushing anything out of the way that doesn't adhere to some code of simplicity. It's an insulting notion given how much time we put in to this. So yeah maybe I came in spitting fire a little quickly. But re-reading that last initial paragraph, it's simply a defense of the team as a whole. Taking this personally as if it's some attack about you is really making the world revolve around you in this case... this was not about you, it was about us.
And let's not cherry pick context of quotes. The full quote was
but discrediting our research on Poe because of your individual assertions is ignoring an entire team of 40+ diligently putting work in to assessing the strongest comps and characters possible as a group for your own needless ends at making it seem like "you know better". Well, in this case, you don't.
Yeah I stand by this comment and I don't think it's talking down to you at all. I said you were making it seem like YOU know better, and in this case, you don't. You don't know better than us - at best you are tied with us for information available. I never flat out said we were the end-all be-all of info, I said we're not uninformed and trying to make it seem like one opinion can simply invalidate what we're saying is not justified. I apologize if the wording of this quote is difficult to catch a vibe from, but it's not me saying "you're dumb we're smart," it's me saying "we're not dumb and you're not smarter than us."
Some think this shouldn't be an issue since 70 is just a stopping point, some (including our team) disagree and feel this is still very important.
No one is saying he isn't concerning, some are just saying wait and see.
We are saying waiting to see means having to nerf vs taking action beforehand to avoid nerfs on live content.
That's basically it. If you want to wait and see, well... we may be waiting and seeing... but if it's nerfed on the live client don't go getting **** about nerfs taking place when it very easily could have been avoided.
Yeah I stand by this comment and I don't think it's talking down to you at all. I said you were making it seem like YOU know better, and in this case, you don't. You don't know better than us - at best you are tied with us for information available. I never flat out said we were the end-all be-all of info, I said we're not uninformed and trying to make it seem like one opinion can simply invalidate what we're saying is not justified. I apologize if the wording of this quote is difficult to catch a vibe from, but it's not me saying "you're dumb we're smart," it's me saying "we're not dumb and you're not smarter than us."
I agree here, at best I'm tied - I'm not saying I'm smarter at all. Tied is fine. You may even know more, that's fine too. I'm still learning about SW and toons and builds day by day. I don't want a fight with you or war with your guild - not at all. I respect your team members, the website is cool, I know you have good info and the speed article was impressive. Based on what you're saying, obviously I misinterpreted your intent and I apologize for then attacking you as well.
Some think this shouldn't be an issue since 70 is just a stopping point, some (including our team) disagree and feel this is still very important.
No one is saying he isn't concerning, some are just saying wait and see.
We are saying waiting to see means having to nerf vs taking action beforehand to avoid nerfs on live content.
That's basically it. If you want to wait and see, well... we may be waiting and seeing... but if it's nerfed on the live client don't go getting **** about nerfs taking place when it very easily could have been avoided.
I agree with everything here. I'll even say that if at end game Poe keeps his relative speed advantage (assume he goes 143 and stays among the top fastest toons as projecting at 70) and we don't have anything that counters speed, than I'd totally agree he should get a nerf. Probably remove completely the meter aspect of his taunt...or make him materially slower (leave him at 138 would be fine as he's still fast at 138 even).
I won't complain if he's nerfed later once we know what's certain. We all want a competitive and variety filled game - not just the same builds over and over. I'm sick of Poe too honestly - that's why we were building that speed team for now even to hit past him. I'm so happy not to be using Poe and that I can beat Poe cleanly without have to also use Poe...we've had him in service nearly a month now and he's just getting more and more prevalent. He's reaching week 1 Barriss levels of saturation in the top 10/20 on my server and there isn't a great counter for him if you are fighting at equal speeds with him. It's Poe vs. Poe who can manipulate more meter or get one key stun, etc. I see what you're trying to prevent - I've been living it for weeks now. Do I want another 2-3 months of that and worse? No way. Just my difference of opinion that I'd prefer we actually see what's going on in production with keeping true end game in mind before nerfing.
CG won´t nerf Poe, cause shards was in TFA pack and people can claim a refund just like Barris nerf.
I wonder if they will Nerf him without "nerfing" him by making him weaker at 70 by changing how he advances from 60 to 70...
I've been hoping his gear on 8 that advances his speed is level capped at 70 or won't go in to production. I think the projections here assuming all else stays the same would be valid. Poe would be that critical if everything else holds as expected.
CG won´t nerf Poe, cause shards was in TFA pack and people can claim a refund just like Barris nerf.
I wonder if they will Nerf him without "nerfing" him by making him weaker at 70 by changing how he advances from 60 to 70...
Yes, this lvl 70 Stats posted on swgohcantina.com and other sites are just speculations.
I wouldn't say they are fully speculations - but just using a data file that isn't in production. They aren't based on user-generated content necessarily. I'd call them more like a rough draft than speculations.
@JohnnySteelAlpha You argue from the standpoint of a minority: the one that has no problem buying new out-of-the-box-ready-to-play units that may counter the existing ones.
The majority of people do not have the luxury of changing their current farming strategy mid-way to get the new units. It takes weeks and crystals and patience to field a new unit in the arena and remain competitive.
Thus, your position and angle taints the majority of your "arguments" in my eyes.
OP made a honest, open-minded attempt at explaining the changes he proposed.
I'm completely with @Naecabon about this topic, and understand his frustrations and reaction over the content shared here.
Replies
Normally I'd agree about nerfing but if there's one character who needs it it's FOTP.
Then nobody will use him he will be useless.
Dude - you're now suggesting that your 40+ players have more information than all players in the forum and other guilds combined - what we should all just blindly follow team instinct? You guys have nice players, but you guys are behind meta bro. Sorry to tell you, but your team is not all knowing superior.
I've been reading stuff and I like you guys - I wish you well, but let's take a look at some threads.
Here's Hatto proclaiming this as the best meter team in PVP - it wasn't. He and all you guys didn't know about FOO apparently (unless it'a different Hatto in your guild than ignore this).
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/5167/best-turnmeter-team-for-pvp#latest
Then there's the speed thread and comment about leaders....
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/4981/leader-speed-bonuses-not-applying-on-first-turn#latest
They do work - they just don't work the way you want them to or think that they did. They don't impact starting speed - I assumed they did to honestly, but they don't. Fine. They do work though and after thinking about it that's probably best as speed leaders that would add to starting speed would just make the game even more about speed starting the match.
Look, you guys do some great stuff and have great players - don't get me wrong there - but you are not THE authority on all things in the game bro. In fact, you've missed a few things even. You're not the only smart guys in the room. The rest of the guilds and forum aren't monkeys.
I clearly say in that post they aren't working because they don't apply to the first turn. Do you actually bother to read entire posts or do you just take bits and pieces to fit an argument to your liking? They don't work right at the moment, why you keep arguing this is beyond me. They. Don't. Work. Properly. If they actually said "Grants speed AFTER THEY TAKE AN ACTION" in the description of the skill, it would be working properly.
Thank you for pointing something out I've had screenshot proof of for quite some time now.
There are spreadsheets available for PUBLIC USE out there in the wild that show gear to level 100, and yeah we have that. So what? Go find them yourself if you'd like to see them, it's not hard.
We know about FOO's speed breaks to level 100 and how his damage will scale as well. Do you? Did you even have the slightest notion of how his Turn Meter ability worked before we showed you a breakdown of how Speed even works in this game? I seriously doubt it.
We're not the authority, but we certainly aren't making statements without reasons for doing so. NO one in this post has still made a single case against anything to do with Poe at 70 and for some bizarre, crazy reason everyone seems to think the case is closed.
I would agree that at level 70 it would be better if he kept his same speed and didn't gain additional speed....HOWEVER...my main concern is end game. What if at gear 9 Poe's 143 speed becomes much slower relatively speaking? This could be because of other toons getting speed on gear 9, new toons released, old toons buffed with new mechanics, etc. I just don't want a premature nerf on a character that later proves to be unnecessary just because we are playing an immature game right now. Barriss is the key example. Heal meta and her low damage are so far from being OP in PVP it's ridiculous. It's possible her old heal may have been good enough to still make her at least an option in PVP and keep healing relevant. Still would be sketchy given her weak damage, but she'd have a better shot anyway.
I'd be happy with a Poe freeze at 137 temporarily as at 143 he will be tough based on what we know now (again, we don't know all information so that's risky that we assume), but I'd hate to see that planned speed get permanently chopped before we are really at a good point to estimate Poe's value in a more mature game.
Currently only two characters in the entire game ever break round 6 at level 100. There are about 10...? I think that hit round 7.
Until we see more characters introduced with speeds beyond 143 and 167 Poe will still be in the top % of fast characters, and only TWO will ever be faster than him unless major changes happen.
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/5464/the-journey-beyond-poe-the-demise-of-fotp-ludicrous-speed-activated#latest
Bonkers...or just has additional information? I think anyone making a proclamation that something is broke at this moment is bonkers..or just really overestimating their knowledge base because most players have very little of the roster actually built and we don't have the bulk of all toons in the population that CG is going to release. TIE is balanced in that he's slow....you can run circles around him and keep him from getting advantage. You can also use damage down characters to make him hit much lower - TIE without damage is barely more than a speed bump. Keep in mind, more toons will be released and others buffed as time goes on. In the upper meta across the broader roster, TIE is already passed and just a solid toon. Just as Lumi was passed, Barriss, Dooku, etc....now, like others he may also come back. He has one great skill - strong damage. That's it guys. You nerf his hitting power and he doesn't have anything else to add.
You've successfully managed to get under my skin with this quote by the way, so congrats to that.
Again, let me say this as clearly as I can - We are trying to help the community by pointing out things we consider to be problems coming in the future. We do not care at all about this current meta. We aren't even testing for this meta any more. Taking #1 on all servers we play on is a joke - it's just a game of hop scotch. No teams can properly defend right now in this meta and no matter how hard you try, you'll be beaten. So we're over it, we're just going through the motions right now and focusing entirely on level 70 only for meta purposes.
To say this puts us BEHIND the meta is so ****-backwards that it's actually insulting. We're messing around in a meta that doesn't even exist yet and we found something we consider to be an issue for the game.
You do realize we didn't have to say anything, right? If we were really just concerned about winning, we would just smile and nod and not say a peep about Poe. I mean, after all, if he's SO STRONG like we're suggesting at 70, why are we even taking a second to touch on our concerns about him publicly?
The answer is that, contrary to apparent popular belief, we actually want to see great things from this game. We want to acknowledge what could be an issue and try to **** it in the butt before it becomes a live problem and requires a backwards action nerf to fix. WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE. Stop fighting us on this for absolutely no reason and start listening to what we're saying. In the same breath, you're openly stating you think Jedi allowing Speed on the first round of actions "would lead to problems because then the meta would just be about getting the strongest abilities to go first" and we're literally saying POE WILL ALLOW THE META TO BECOME ALL ABOUT GETTING THE STRONGEST ABILITIES TO GO FIRST. How can you claim one thing is too powerful and then immediately say the same scenario in a different bag is not?!
Dude - we knew speed leaders didn't impact starting speed weeks before you posted those screen shots. Since Poe was in our server almost day 1 on his release, guys were already planning counters past him from that exact moment nearly 4 weeks ago. Ackbar + Han for example. Didn't work as the leader ability doesn't impact starting speed. Also, you're ASSUMING that the speed leader doesn't work properly. The speed leader description doesn't say that it does or doesn't add to starting speed - just says they get more speed. They do work and have an action though so calling them broke is a half-truth at best and more likely just a bad assumption on your part in how the mechanic is intended to work.
Good try on the FOO topic - so I point out a miss in a post from your team about meter teams and you try to then quiz me and take the higher authority ground and cover up an honest mistake or oversight by Hatto. I appreciate that Hatto posted that team. I'm not trying to bash anyone so I apologize Hatto - but Naec you're trying to beat the forum over the head with this entitled superiority speech and saying how omnipotent your team's knowledge base is and I'm just saying...hey...other people know stuff too.
On the meter / speed question - I'd like to thank im2awesome and Haider for having great meter / speed leader based teams early on in the game. Im2 I think had a 7* Obi Wan like the first week or so of hard launch. Seeing his mind tricks in action that has meter control and then later version of Ben with a Jinn leader was very informative. As I mentioned in another thread - I'm very privileged to be on a very competitive server and it was that way from day 1. Also, just FYI - I came to SW already in a guild of gamers with more players than what instinct has right now. High level players as well that are smart guys and gals. I've had access to a pool of knowledge and broad base of SW toons - actual feedback from results not just speculating on toons looking at a spreadsheet - since the game started. So you ask me was I aware of speed and its impact and how it worked before your post...yes, yes I was quite aware of the impact of speed, turn meter manipulation, and how it functions in SW. I'll give a concrete example. A great player of ours, Ghost Chili - he had identified ST Han like the first week of playing SW and had him 6* early on before anyone was asking about him on the forums and was utilizing the Han trap. That was deep in the period when Barriss and healing was all OP and well before you guys even formed your guild.
Look, you guys have a great guild and players with great teams - you will be very competitive and maybe even be #1 - who knows. However, assuming that everyone else is a noob and lost without the guidance of instinct's latest article is pretty conceited.
I, as a very light spender, was just thinking about a few of these characters.
Lately, many of my arena matches have come down to which Poe goes first. That future doesn't sound good to me either. I'd prefer to have some other ability besides turn meter manipulation attached to the taunt to help mitigate feelings of loss by players. Team buff? Anyone have a balanced suggestion?
Fix Leia and she will see more balanced use.
Is it true that FOTP has his agility and strength stats flipped on star 7? If so, I'd label that a bug, switch them back to bring his hp down. If not, I'd agree with tuning him down on HP and the overkill proc.
Don't start twisting my defense of our knowledge base and accusatory statements (yes I was clearly being aggressive) as entitlement. YOU started throwing the daggers at US with comments like
Adding in cute little quips about how you need to "take a look at some of our threads" like we're **** (threads just suggesting teams for discussion or pointing out something that's not working because it's, you know, not working) to try and take the higher ground. And we're the elitists?
It's not really an exaggeration if we have the information we claim to have, and we do, so what's the problem here? You've made multiple posts in this thread alone saying we "shouldn't be quick to rush judgment since we don't have a picture of how it looks all the way to 100" and we're saying we uhh... we do. Yeah. We do? So what's the problem here. Am I supposed to say we don't? Am I supposed to pretend our opinions on the topic at hand of Poe are not founded on actual concrete game files currently in place? Was it wrong to explain that we actually, you know, have a reason to make these assertions instead of just making them based on nothing?
Stop twisting your own elitist arrogance and attacks as being this one sided thing only coming from us.
Never said Poe at 143 for level 70 wouldn't be a monster. Assuming nothing else changes, no new mechanics are introduced, no new toons are introduced that address him, no old toons are buffed - so hold everything as is essentially and just boost Poe's speed higher - yes I agree he's probably too fast and would likely need a nerf or at least would be high in line for one...for that given level and point in time. What I'm arguing though is we don't have sufficient info on end game - forget 60/70 - to ask for nerfs. No more Barriss mega nerfs on toons that later aren't even OP at a top meta level. So I'll state clearly: I'm not disagreeing with you assessment of Poe at 70 with 143 speed - he will be a beast - but I just differ in thinking that lvl 70 2 months in to the game with so few toons overall built is a sufficient enough base of knowledge to start swinging the nerf bat. CG moved way too early on Barriss and I'd like to not see that again. Let's at least get there and then make adjustments based on actual data. We shouldn't nerf based on projections.
I also want to say, it may seem that many of us are overreacting to ewok and within this thread that may be true if this was the only context. Reason being though is gaming companies when they bring out the nerf bat often will swing it really heavy and massively disrupt the value of the toon. I can't see them taking the time to adjust Poe and move his speed down one digit.
Here's your comment that got me started:
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/comment/45761/#Comment_45761
You my friend started the issue here by talking down to everyone not agreeing with your position:
"It's become very clear that a lot of people on these forums are simply terrible at the art of theorycrafting."
That's your comment sir. That's not elitist? Your last paragraph then ends with the point essentially that you are in this great group of 40+ people that knows better than others....because you end by saying "well, in this case, you don't." You talk down to people. You don't think folks are going to respond to that and call you out?
Never said you weren't basing them on anything concrete...but just know that data files like this in games - have experience with CG data files for years now - may not actually be final and make it in the game. Everyone with these files - may not know as much as they think they know. Now...I don't know either - - just have past experience from other CG games that this data can and has changed greatly once it actually got to production. Heck, you may even be correct here - but I just don't think we have the sufficient information at this time to make nerf calls and especially to not be so certain and confident about it.
which truthfully had me seeing red very quickly. Yeah, maybe a comment of saying a lot of people are terrible at theorycrafting was guns blazing aggressive, but are you really going to be instantly bent out of shape over such a broad, stupid comment? I wasn't pinpointing anyone and was basically just firing shots (admittedly) because I didn't like people coming at Ewok the way they were.
Elyndria basically insinuated very strongly that we only care about this Poe thing because we're in a spot where we don't want to see some mystery magic team we have in our pocket be threatened by him, as if we don't experiment with a broader pool of characters and we're just one note one mindset drones pushing anything out of the way that doesn't adhere to some code of simplicity. It's an insulting notion given how much time we put in to this. So yeah maybe I came in spitting fire a little quickly. But re-reading that last initial paragraph, it's simply a defense of the team as a whole. Taking this personally as if it's some attack about you is really making the world revolve around you in this case... this was not about you, it was about us.
And let's not cherry pick context of quotes. The full quote was
Yeah I stand by this comment and I don't think it's talking down to you at all. I said you were making it seem like YOU know better, and in this case, you don't. You don't know better than us - at best you are tied with us for information available. I never flat out said we were the end-all be-all of info, I said we're not uninformed and trying to make it seem like one opinion can simply invalidate what we're saying is not justified. I apologize if the wording of this quote is difficult to catch a vibe from, but it's not me saying "you're dumb we're smart," it's me saying "we're not dumb and you're not smarter than us."
Everyone agrees Poe is strong.
Everyone agrees he may be problematic at 70.
Some think this shouldn't be an issue since 70 is just a stopping point, some (including our team) disagree and feel this is still very important.
No one is saying he isn't concerning, some are just saying wait and see.
We are saying waiting to see means having to nerf vs taking action beforehand to avoid nerfs on live content.
That's basically it. If you want to wait and see, well... we may be waiting and seeing... but if it's nerfed on the live client don't go getting **** about nerfs taking place when it very easily could have been avoided.
I agree with everything here. I'll even say that if at end game Poe keeps his relative speed advantage (assume he goes 143 and stays among the top fastest toons as projecting at 70) and we don't have anything that counters speed, than I'd totally agree he should get a nerf. Probably remove completely the meter aspect of his taunt...or make him materially slower (leave him at 138 would be fine as he's still fast at 138 even).
I won't complain if he's nerfed later once we know what's certain. We all want a competitive and variety filled game - not just the same builds over and over. I'm sick of Poe too honestly - that's why we were building that speed team for now even to hit past him. I'm so happy not to be using Poe and that I can beat Poe cleanly without have to also use Poe...we've had him in service nearly a month now and he's just getting more and more prevalent. He's reaching week 1 Barriss levels of saturation in the top 10/20 on my server and there isn't a great counter for him if you are fighting at equal speeds with him. It's Poe vs. Poe who can manipulate more meter or get one key stun, etc. I see what you're trying to prevent - I've been living it for weeks now. Do I want another 2-3 months of that and worse? No way. Just my difference of opinion that I'd prefer we actually see what's going on in production with keeping true end game in mind before nerfing.
I wonder if they will Nerf him without "nerfing" him by making him weaker at 70 by changing how he advances from 60 to 70...
TeamInstinct.net -- Community Site and Home to Team Instinct
Yes, this lvl 70 Stats posted on swgohcantina.com and other sites are just speculations.
I've been hoping his gear on 8 that advances his speed is level capped at 70 or won't go in to production. I think the projections here assuming all else stays the same would be valid. Poe would be that critical if everything else holds as expected.
I wouldn't say they are fully speculations - but just using a data file that isn't in production. They aren't based on user-generated content necessarily. I'd call them more like a rough draft than speculations.
The majority of people do not have the luxury of changing their current farming strategy mid-way to get the new units. It takes weeks and crystals and patience to field a new unit in the arena and remain competitive.
Thus, your position and angle taints the majority of your "arguments" in my eyes.
OP made a honest, open-minded attempt at explaining the changes he proposed.
I'm completely with @Naecabon about this topic, and understand his frustrations and reaction over the content shared here.