Once you have more of the roster he's actually pretty easy to gameplan for because he only has one way to impact the match.
It's easy to say expand and build up your roster, but that is often a luxury to most F2P players. FOTP is technically a farmable hero, but very few F2P players have the resources to farm him to a 6/7-star. Hence, you often get to only see him in a P2P team, paired with Leia and Poe.
This is a good topic. Let's say we are the game designers. What level would you balance the game to? I have posted in here a fast P2P team that can run circles around FOTP and makes him look like an average guy. When he doesn't have speed advantage, he's manageable and only gets off one shot before bowing out. To do this though may require chrome-type characters or a high level gear / star composition of 5 farmable toons of varying difficulty. Essentially then to many players FOTP will seem very unbeatable and unbalanced. In his segment of P2P toons though, he's already been dethroned vs. faster builds - same for Poe. So what should CG / EA do in this case? Here you have a P2P type toon in FOTP because he's a slow farm. In that segment, he's not an uncounterable monster...but to other segments he is. Where should CG balance this toon? Do you balance toons to F2P pace? Low spender? Mid spender? The top 1%?
I'd also say...I think any nerf to a good toon, especially one that is farmable like Poe (and there are low spenders / F2P that successfully use a 3/4* FOTP) hurts the low spender / F2P much more. If a P2P toon is nerfed...just move to next best thing and build it. P2P have deep rosters and can adjust fast. Any F2P or low spender counting on Poe or FOTP is going to be hurting for a good bit and take much longer to recover. Nerfs really don't hurt the P2P much if that is the goal - it's just next man up really.
Here's how I'd sum up the situation for each class assuming a Poe / FOTP nerf:
1. P2P: minimal impact - Poe and FOTP are already bested in the P2P top tier meta now - they are not necessary to a top tier P2P build - losing them at this point will have modest impact in PVP, probably more impact to GW as that will reduce the depth, but won't be detrimental as P2P have good roster depth and can adjust quickly
2. F2P: Depends. If vs. other F2P that utilize these heroes and they don't have these heroes, than it's a big help to those F2P that don't have Poe / TIE. Other F2P low spender that use these toons it will be a big setback. For any F2P / low spender if you're trying to use a nerf here as a way to bring parity with the heavy P2P guys....that won't work as there is already speed / meta beyond the current FOTP /Poe builds...and P2P can adapt and just bring in the next man up. 86 and Geo Soldier are both viable options to replace TIE - or Darth Maul or Rey....and then of course whatever new chrome toons come out after that.
Whatever happens I'm fine with either way. Just on principle I didn't want another Barriss situation where in a few weeks we look back and see it was an unnecessary negative adjustment. Nerfs negatively impact players and the game. They should be used only if completely necessary.
Nerf an hero, P2P players can still adapt quickly. Leave it as it is, the leaderboard is likely dominated with P2P players which result in F2P players getting frustrated and potentially leaving the game. Lower the barrier to acquire and level up heroes (which was the way I was leaning towards), P2P players have little incentive to spend.
I have been reading all of your posts and I think there is a real problem in this game, it probably won't be balanced even with my aforementioned buffs/nerfs. What really needs to be fixed/countered is speed. Since so much of the game has been balanced around speed when the game hits this level cap a full team of characters can go before another team that aren't those same exact characters. This is a big issue, especially to team diversity. My idea for a fix is keep damage and speed what they are at, but give everyone double the health. Anyone who has a % health base skill gets that skill reduced by half. What does this do? Even with a full speed team you can counter it by have higher health slower characters that won't die turn 1. If the speed team gets lucky they may kill off the weakest character but that is a much much smaller chance. It is allows slower picks with niche skills to become viable opening the breadth of useful picks to the entire speed range.
I have been reading all of your posts and I think there is a real problem in this game, it probably won't be balanced even with my aforementioned buffs/nerfs. What really needs to be fixed/countered is speed. Since so much of the game has been balanced around speed when the game hits this level cap a full team of characters can go before another team that aren't those same exact characters. This is a big issue, especially to team diversity. My idea for a fix is keep damage and speed what they are at, but give everyone double the health. Anyone who has a % health base skill gets that skill reduced by half. What does this do? Even with a full speed team you can counter it by have higher health slower characters that won't die turn 1. If the speed team gets lucky they may kill off the weakest character but that is a much much smaller chance. It is allows slower picks with niche skills to become viable opening the breadth of useful picks to the entire speed range.
Wouldn't this potentially result in a lot of draws?
I have been reading all of your posts and I think there is a real problem in this game, it probably won't be balanced even with my aforementioned buffs/nerfs. What really needs to be fixed/countered is speed. Since so much of the game has been balanced around speed when the game hits this level cap a full team of characters can go before another team that aren't those same exact characters. This is a big issue, especially to team diversity. My idea for a fix is keep damage and speed what they are at, but give everyone double the health. Anyone who has a % health base skill gets that skill reduced by half. What does this do? Even with a full speed team you can counter it by have higher health slower characters that won't die turn 1. If the speed team gets lucky they may kill off the weakest character but that is a much much smaller chance. It is allows slower picks with niche skills to become viable opening the breadth of useful picks to the entire speed range.
Wouldn't this potentially result in a lot of draws?
With an increase in health comes an increase in time to duel. It becomes more like a chess match where all the peieces are able to fully utilize there skills instead of getting one shot right off the bat. They say that having longer matches is a bad thing in arena, but honestly arena is the most exciting part of the game, doubling that time you spend doing is only seen as a positive to me
I have been reading all of your posts and I think there is a real problem in this game, it probably won't be balanced even with my aforementioned buffs/nerfs. What really needs to be fixed/countered is speed. Since so much of the game has been balanced around speed when the game hits this level cap a full team of characters can go before another team that aren't those same exact characters. This is a big issue, especially to team diversity. My idea for a fix is keep damage and speed what they are at, but give everyone double the health. Anyone who has a % health base skill gets that skill reduced by half. What does this do? Even with a full speed team you can counter it by have higher health slower characters that won't die turn 1. If the speed team gets lucky they may kill off the weakest character but that is a much much smaller chance. It is allows slower picks with niche skills to become viable opening the breadth of useful picks to the entire speed range.
Before you had my curiosity...now you have my attention sir This is spot on 100% the problem and why it goes way beyond Poe / TIE.
Too much deadly stuff has been pushed up in early rounds. Meter control, ally assist attacks, and team buffs are way too early in battles. They are too powerful to be on leading toons. Look at the top 15 fastest toons at g8 / lvl 70 and who / what skills they include:
Poe (meter / expose)
Sid (leader ability that boosts crit % and damage)
Leia (even when fixed, has good team crit up chance early for team and has multi attack)
Rey (6k+ damage on her special, >12k attack with offense up on her multi hit)
Poggle (offense up for all allies - 50% damage boost)
Geon Soldier (multi attack - basically 2 hits in one)
QGJ (multi-attack with ally getting 75% more damage boost - that's ALMOST like 3 hits from QGJ...lol)
FOO (meter control)
This list doesn't even get to TIE who's slow. What you have here are too many toons early on that have abilities that are too powerful. This pushes all matches up to be so fast and blocks out most other skills / abilities / toons.
Meter control (Poe / FOO) is way too powerful and should be a skill that lags the battle, not leads it. I'd say same for assist (Jinn / GS) and multi-attacks (Leia / Rey) and lastly team offense up buffs like Leia's 2x crit ability and Poggle's O up ability and Sid's leader ability. Battles shouldn't lead off with powerful offensive skills. This is what will continue to push speed to be the most key in PVP. That's too many deadly / fast options for players to put together and create super fast offensive powerhouses.
@TQ - Fanta was saying my view was biased by the fact that I could fight with a broad set of toons that most can't fight with. Ok, I agree with that point on having more toons - makes sense. However, I was arguing at that time to not nerf Poe. From my view - I was on the side of the F2P / low spender there because Poe is the great F2P speed equalizer - he doesn't even need to be 7* to function at a high level. At 143 speed, Poe will be able to mach the turn meter bracket of my P2P speed build that currently hits ahead of him and can kill him before he moves. Fanta was then saying he agreed with the OP and not me...again because I have a supposedly biased view. I don't know how me arguing not to nerf a toon that equalizes the game for F2P / low spenders (which I'm not) vs. P2P (which I am) has anything to do with my own personal roster...and I was arguing that we were just too early on in the game to nerf - I wasn't debating the OPs point about Poe's skills assuming 143 speed and his impact. So again, I have no idea what me and my roster have to do with my arguments at all. If anything, I was arguing against my own best personal interests as a P2P just on the principle of not wanting to nerf and have another Barriss biff.
But....I'm all for the nerf now - I've been convinced so it's water under the bridge. I'm in - let's balance to g8 lvl 70 and go step by step. If some toons get lost in the shuffle permanently due to possible premature nerfing, that's just the way it has to be.
As part of the buff conversation, shouldn't Han get some consideration for increased hp? He can be very powerful with his turn meter manipulation, but he won't get a chance to use it - at least not in the current meta if he is getting one-shot killed by the likes of FOTP. Not sure what CG had in mind by making him taunt up to 3 turns when he would never see that turn 3 because he has less hp than many attackers! This is another factor that separates between Poe and Han. Poe is not only fast and has all those debuffs, but also has a lot more hp and ability to self-heal to withstand more punishment as a tank.
...but I guess this goes back to the latest discussion about potentially toning down the overall damage to allow longer battles.
As part of the buff conversation, shouldn't Han get some consideration for increased hp? He can be very powerful with his turn meter manipulation, but he won't get a chance to use it - at least not in the current meta if he is getting one-shot killed by the likes of FOTP. Not sure what CG had in mind by making him taunt up to 3 turns when he would never see that turn 3 because he has less hp than many attackers! This is another factor that separates between Poe and Han. Poe is not only fast and has all those debuffs, but also has a lot more hp and ability to self-heal to withstand more punishment as a tank.
...but I guess this goes back to the latest discussion about potentially toning down the overall damage to allow longer battles.
Don't forget that Poe came way after Han.. So I'm expecting adjustments in future..
And during Han days, the flavour of the hour was healers with a tank and a few dps.. Things always change and new meta might bring back tanky healer teams.. Who knows..
Like you said, tone down damage, not so sure, but perhaps increase hp of non dps heroes by like 50%.. @EwokRampage , That would allow some more game planning and a chance to make a fight last longer than 40-90 seconds.. Because at the moment.. Most of my battles last 40-70 seconds if I don't stretch the timer on purpose
Let's see what this coming patch and the next big one after have in store.. New heroes, new events etc.. Let's see how devs make the game and meta progress in next weeks..
PvP is fun, but quite boring at the moment.. Need major adjustments
Don't want to derail this thread, but I want better challenges.. Maybe make a 10 tier challenge ladder instead of just a 3 waves challenge 3-5 times a day.. Each tier could become increasingly difficult.. Could also have teams requirements.. Like tier 5 is only rebels and resistance heroes allowed.. Would make game way more diversified..just saying
There as some posts in here about First Order Tie-Pilot (FOTP) talking about if he needs a nerf or not.
While I'm not of the opinion that he needs a damage nerf (even if I can understand it if it comes), I cannot understand how anyone can think that his health at 7* is working correctly.
For those that don't know, FOTP goes from these values at 6*:
Str - 4.7
Agi - 7.1
Int - 3.9
To this at 7*:
Str - 8.0
Agi - 5.3
Int - 4.4
Giving him about 2 800 extra health at lvl 60 that he really shouldn't have...
There as some posts in here about First Order Tie-Pilot (FOTP) talking about if he needs a nerf or not.
While I'm not of the opinion that he needs a damage nerf (even if I can understand it if it comes), I cannot understand how anyone can think that his health at 7* is working correctly.
For those that don't know, FOTP goes from these values at 6*:
Str - 4.7
Agi - 7.1
Int - 3.9
To this at 7*:
Str - 8.0
Agi - 5.3
Int - 4.4
Giving him about 2 800 extra health at lvl 60 that he really shouldn't have...
Correct - a few have pointed this out - I mentioned it in this thread I think - but what seems pretty clear that he's bugged is that reduction of AGI. That's what setoff the alarm bells. That seems backwards. Plus most heroes don't gain anywhere near that much of a bump in health going from 6 - 7 star in percent terms. Thanks for posting these comparison numbers.
Replies
Nerf an hero, P2P players can still adapt quickly. Leave it as it is, the leaderboard is likely dominated with P2P players which result in F2P players getting frustrated and potentially leaving the game. Lower the barrier to acquire and level up heroes (which was the way I was leaning towards), P2P players have little incentive to spend.
A very tricky issue indeed...
Wouldn't this potentially result in a lot of draws?
With an increase in health comes an increase in time to duel. It becomes more like a chess match where all the peieces are able to fully utilize there skills instead of getting one shot right off the bat. They say that having longer matches is a bad thing in arena, but honestly arena is the most exciting part of the game, doubling that time you spend doing is only seen as a positive to me
Shhhhh...well something would hopefully change in regards to that using that tactic since it is even a problem at 5 minutes.
Before you had my curiosity...now you have my attention sir
Too much deadly stuff has been pushed up in early rounds. Meter control, ally assist attacks, and team buffs are way too early in battles. They are too powerful to be on leading toons. Look at the top 15 fastest toons at g8 / lvl 70 and who / what skills they include:
Poe (meter / expose)
Sid (leader ability that boosts crit % and damage)
Leia (even when fixed, has good team crit up chance early for team and has multi attack)
Rey (6k+ damage on her special, >12k attack with offense up on her multi hit)
Poggle (offense up for all allies - 50% damage boost)
Geon Soldier (multi attack - basically 2 hits in one)
QGJ (multi-attack with ally getting 75% more damage boost - that's ALMOST like 3 hits from QGJ...lol)
FOO (meter control)
This list doesn't even get to TIE who's slow. What you have here are too many toons early on that have abilities that are too powerful. This pushes all matches up to be so fast and blocks out most other skills / abilities / toons.
Meter control (Poe / FOO) is way too powerful and should be a skill that lags the battle, not leads it. I'd say same for assist (Jinn / GS) and multi-attacks (Leia / Rey) and lastly team offense up buffs like Leia's 2x crit ability and Poggle's O up ability and Sid's leader ability. Battles shouldn't lead off with powerful offensive skills. This is what will continue to push speed to be the most key in PVP. That's too many deadly / fast options for players to put together and create super fast offensive powerhouses.
Any character with it is atrocious. I will not attain any character with it, and if attained, I will not promote.
Most opponents are eliminated before it triggers, and the damage is underwhelming. It's a waste.
But....I'm all for the nerf now - I've been convinced so it's water under the bridge. I'm in - let's balance to g8 lvl 70 and go step by step. If some toons get lost in the shuffle permanently due to possible premature nerfing, that's just the way it has to be.
...but I guess this goes back to the latest discussion about potentially toning down the overall damage to allow longer battles.
Don't forget that Poe came way after Han.. So I'm expecting adjustments in future..
And during Han days, the flavour of the hour was healers with a tank and a few dps.. Things always change and new meta might bring back tanky healer teams.. Who knows..
Like you said, tone down damage, not so sure, but perhaps increase hp of non dps heroes by like 50%.. @EwokRampage , That would allow some more game planning and a chance to make a fight last longer than 40-90 seconds.. Because at the moment.. Most of my battles last 40-70 seconds if I don't stretch the timer on purpose
Let's see what this coming patch and the next big one after have in store.. New heroes, new events etc.. Let's see how devs make the game and meta progress in next weeks..
PvP is fun, but quite boring at the moment.. Need major adjustments
Don't want to derail this thread, but I want better challenges.. Maybe make a 10 tier challenge ladder instead of just a 3 waves challenge 3-5 times a day.. Each tier could become increasingly difficult.. Could also have teams requirements.. Like tier 5 is only rebels and resistance heroes allowed.. Would make game way more diversified..just saying
While I'm not of the opinion that he needs a damage nerf (even if I can understand it if it comes), I cannot understand how anyone can think that his health at 7* is working correctly.
For those that don't know, FOTP goes from these values at 6*:
Str - 4.7
Agi - 7.1
Int - 3.9
To this at 7*:
Str - 8.0
Agi - 5.3
Int - 4.4
Giving him about 2 800 extra health at lvl 60 that he really shouldn't have...
Correct - a few have pointed this out - I mentioned it in this thread I think - but what seems pretty clear that he's bugged is that reduction of AGI. That's what setoff the alarm bells. That seems backwards. Plus most heroes don't gain anywhere near that much of a bump in health going from 6 - 7 star in percent terms. Thanks for posting these comparison numbers.