Are we lighting this up again? Ok TL;DR, Guild hopping and alt farming are exploits, proven fact. Some guys tried to argue it wasn't and lost. Some guy even came along and said any guild who asked someone to join was exploiting.... It got a little crazy. Anyway, moving the thread forwards... Should people using exploits be punished?
Ironically, it appear reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
Yes, devs may have given the OK to guild hopping in the past: I acknowledged that. Just like they gave the OK to collecting multiple guild rewards. Their prior stance doesn't change the fact they are now calling it an exploit. And certain guilds are planning on continuing to use this exploit to raid 6 or more times per week.
If your stance is that guilds and players shouldn't be retroactively punished for doing this, as it wasn't considered an exploit at the time, then that's fine. But it has now been described as an exploit, and those who employ it are, buy definition, exploiters.
By the way, I'm not sure how sound the "everyone can do it, so it's OK" logic is. This would certainly seem to have applied to the Vader exploit, yet those who did go down that path were punished.
He never said that guild hopping is an exploit but that there are exploits that happen with guild hopping. That's what the other guy with the pictures was trying to explain to you.
He needs more pictures I think..it didn't sink in the first time
Ironically, it appear reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
Yes, devs may have given the OK to guild hopping in the past: I acknowledged that. Just like they gave the OK to collecting multiple guild rewards. Their prior stance doesn't change the fact they are now calling it an exploit. And certain guilds are planning on continuing to use this exploit to raid 6 or more times per week.
If your stance is that guilds and players shouldn't be retroactively punished for doing this, as it wasn't considered an exploit at the time, then that's fine. But it has now been described as an exploit, and those who employ it are, buy definition, exploiters.
By the way, I'm not sure how sound the "everyone can do it, so it's OK" logic is. This would certainly seem to have applied to the Vader exploit, yet those who did go down that path were punished.
He never said that guild hopping is an exploit but that there are exploits that happen with guild hopping. That's what the other guy with the pictures was trying to explain to you.
He needs more pictures I think..it didn't sink in the first time
Lol, Yeah more pictures please. While your at it, edit the definition of exploit so we can stop calling exploits exploits as it seems to be upsetting the people who use them in this game.
Would love to see a mercenary feature added to the game, I believe the concept fits extremely well into the Star Wars galaxy. Rather than all this guild hopping, alt farming, exploit talk, how about the ability to assist another guild in a raid for a fee (credits) based on the tier, without leaving your home guild. Like everything in this game it could be limited to a number of "jobs" a day.
EA released guilds and didnt think off guild hopping!
Then they did not send a clear message regarding guild hopping being ok to do or not.
Now they created some extra hoops and somehow but not really called it an exploit but still allow it
Without a totally clear message, they cant go punish people, as easy as that...
And no, the new announcement is still no clear message... They did not say anything along the lines of "guild hopping is considered a punishable offense"
At the end of the day who cares about definitions of what exploits are and what they are not?
Last but not least i have 1 more thing to say to OP and george: the heck is wrong with you people? You 2 really that bored? Whenever you encounter something thats according to your opinion unfair, wrong, unbalanced or whatever, you guys come to the forums with a set mind, cry for this and that and dont accept other opinions or explanations no matter what...
Who's the troll here? I've made nothing but solid points backed up with evidence and i've stated opinions clearly. All there has been in response is character assasination and name calling. Prove me wrong and I'll accept defeat but right now I'm winning.
Keep on it peeps, I'll just watch from the sidelines.
You are Mr. Wheredidisaythat; the person that thinks everything written in response has to be directly related to what you wrote beforehand as you are both judge and jury of the topic. I'll do as I please . Keep beating the dead horse.
Who's the troll here? I've made nothing but solid points backed up with evidence and i've stated opinions clearly. All there has been in response is character assasination and name calling. Prove me wrong and I'll accept defeat but right now I'm winning.
Who cares who is winning here?
Devs didnt send a clear message so this discussion is useless
Who's the troll here? I've made nothing but solid points backed up with evidence and i've stated opinions clearly. All there has been in response is character assasination and name calling. Prove me wrong and I'll accept defeat but right now I'm winning.
Who cares who is winning here?
Devs didnt send a clear message so this discussion is useless
I do when your trying to herd the majority into believing it's the other way around and calling me a troll, crybaby and whatever else your wall of projection contained.
The point about the devs being unclear is interesting however. How do you think they could draw the line? Do you think they should make multiple raiding an ingame feature? A merc feature? or just outlaw it all?
Devs didnt send a clear message so this discussion is useless
I agree: they didn't send a clear message, and their message was ambiguous. That's why I asked for clarification, as the use of the term 'exploit' usually does lead to punishment.
You are Mr. Wheredidisaythat; the person that thinks everything written in response has to be directly related to what you wrote beforehand as you are both judge and jury of the topic. I'll do as I please . Keep beating the dead horse.
And I'll respond as I see fit (though I do generally think that posts that quote me or call me out are related to what I wrote). By the way, here's a mod explaining how things work:
LOL.. let me explain how this works.. As the OP [Veganjedi] had control of the thread, he can ask for it to be closed, he can respond and engage. as he sees fit, it is his topic.
I don't understand what you're trying to argue. If those guilds didn't contain the temp members then no they wouldn't have been able to finish the raid (the reason why the sought help). By seeking help they were communicating and exploiting guild hopping a feature of the game that you have deemed as an exploit.
Exactly, without inviting members to fill the spots they wouldn't of completed the raid. So by doing so, what is outside of normal gameplay? The fact those spots were filled with temp members again, what is wrong with that? The fact people who were guild hopping took those spots, what's wrong with that?
You just stated the problem with it in your first sentence, they would have never been able to finish the raid hence exploiting the use of mercs or members that they wouldn't of otherwise had. You love to cite the ToS but re read it and I guarentee you it prohibits people from communicating known exploits. When guilds talk amongst each other or post on the forum asking for guild hoppers it's communicating and exploiting that exploit.... But let me guess it's not an exploit in this case because you benefitted from hoppers joining your guild.
I know that you have an alt account and I know you have an alt guild on that account. I also know that you've mentioned alt farming and potentionally doing that. Therefor you should be punished for communicating a "known exploit"
TOS neither prohibit use of Alts or guild hopping/ Merc activity. Whatsoever.
TOS neither prohibit use of Alts or guild hopping/ Merc activity. Whatsoever.
We've been through this. The ToS doesn't prohibit collecting Vader shards or opening multiple raid rewards, either. The ToS does prohibit the use of exploits, which is the key word quoted in my initial post.
TOS neither prohibit use of Alts or guild hopping/ Merc activity. Whatsoever.
We've been through this. The ToS doesn't prohibit collecting Vader shards or opening multiple raid rewards, either. The ToS does prohibit the use of exploits, which is the key word quoted in my initial post.
Maybe you have been through it but I have come to a different conclusion. The Vader exploit was clear manipulation of getting same rewards multiple items, same as the raid reward exploit.
Alt usage in most games is typically specifically called out where games require teamwork. It was likely intentionally left out, thinking a PTP player making an alt would become a dual PTP account. $$$$.
Guild hopping / merc work was specifically endorsed by developers via NRAJ post.
The developers are the ones that get to define exploit, not you.
Devs didnt send a clear message so this discussion is useless
I agree: they didn't send a clear message, and their message was ambiguous. That's why I asked for clarification, as the use of the term 'exploit' usually does lead to punishment.
You are Mr. Wheredidisaythat; the person that thinks everything written in response has to be directly related to what you wrote beforehand as you are both judge and jury of the topic. I'll do as I please . Keep beating the dead horse.
And I'll respond as I see fit (though I do generally think that posts that quote me or call me out are related to what I wrote). By the way, here's a mod explaining how things work:
LOL.. let me explain how this works.. As the OP [Veganjedi] had control of the thread, he can ask for it to be closed, he can respond and engage. as he sees fit, it is his topic.
It's nice you have the right to get your irredeemable topic closed. Everything I wrote upto a point was related to what's being talked, bringing in new information that your limited nonhopping vantage didn't have, I was extra careful not to burden anyone other than myself for obvious reasons. You choose to ignore it and deem it irrelevant. Keep on it by all means. I can't wait to read 30 pages of nothing sandwiched into nothing.
The developers are the ones that get to define exploit, not you.
Yes, and the whole point of this thread is that they appear to have defined it as an exploit in their latest patch (and that fact that it used to be condoned doesn't change that; as you say they have the right to define what is an exploit, and the right to change their minds like they do when they buff/nerf/'rework' characters).
The developers are the ones that get to define exploit, not you.
Yes, and the whole point of this thread is that they appear to have defined it as an exploit in their latest patch (and that fact that it used to be condoned doesn't change that; as you say they have the right to define what is an exploit, and the right to change their minds like they do when they buff/nerf/'rework' characters).
"Known exploits" might be something VERY different than "Guild Hopping" and\or "Mercing"
Here was bentwookies response to that. Presumably he knows more than you or I on the subject, however but needless to say that hopping was not the issue.
Hopping can still happen, so this want even fixing that:
-on Friday I joined a guild asking for help, I finished their t7 win no rewards
-we then did three t7s after my cooldown and I ranked 1, 4, and 8. The 1 is because they failed to solo p1.
- I missed out on two raids at home, but I did three; I also did not take away Han shards from my guild, they lost out on 600 contribution while I was gone.
Are we lighting this up again? Ok TL;DR, Guild hopping and alt farming are exploits, proven fact. Some guys tried to argue it wasn't and lost. Some guy even came along and said any guild who asked someone to join was exploiting.... It got a little crazy. Anyway, moving the thread forwards... Should people using exploits be punished?
No George-i posted 5 pages back and you conveniently decided not to comment. It's never been an exploit. Known exploits ASSOCIATED with-not the act itself. It won't be looked at because, quite simply-you're wrong. Yours and Scruffy's arguments are baseless. And one more time-The ONLY reason it has been effectively stopped or curtailed was to create a paywall for FTP players. Not hamper the mercs.
Do these guys even realize that hopping and alts were good for the player base? EA/CG keep adding paywall after paywall. These were the only LEGAL means to get ahead in game. And these clowns @GeorgeRules and @Scruffy_Looking want to blame one good thing going for the player base.
These two are the biggest trolls. Stop feeding the trolls and responding to this thread. Obviously, these two don't have real life friends and want to spend all their time blaming people on a mobile game. Thats right, a mobile game where you get nothing in the end. And these two losers want to argue one thing that was good for player base on a mobile game.
@GeorgeRules and @Scruffy_Looking ...get outside the house and get a life...instead of shiitting on one good thing the player base had.
Again with the character assasination and name calling. It isn't an argument you know. @chris The reason, I'm not replying is because we have touched on pretty much every base and I'm trying to move the discussion forwards instead of going around in circles. The argument about the "dev" green lighting it doesn't change the black and white on the issue.
Moving forwards..... What should be done? There are different views on this... Instead of posting about how aweful I am for showing people up, how about posting how you feel about the actual topic.
Here was bentwookies response to that. Presumably he knows more than you or I on the subject, however but needless to say that hopping was not the issue.
I don't think he knows more than anyone else does. Being a mod doesn't give you direct access to inside information or anything, and it would be quite a big problem if it did.
Hopping can still happen, so this want even fixing that:
-on Friday I joined a guild asking for help, I finished their t7 win no rewards
-we then did three t7s after my cooldown and I ranked 1, 4, and 8. The 1 is because they failed to solo p1.
- I missed out on two raids at home, but I did three; I also did not take away Han shards from my guild, they lost out on 600 contribution while I was gone.
Sure merc-style hopping can happen, but the limitation on rewards makes it unprofitable. Alting is still profitable, however, and to the extent that gaining the rewards from 6 raids per week is more than intended, this would be an exploit.
I think they do want to move to an player-account-specific method of limiting raid rewards to 15 per 30 days, but they haven't been able to code it yet. This would be removing the exploit that alters can currently take advantage.
Here was bentwookies response to that. Presumably he knows more than you or I on the subject, however but needless to say that hopping was not the issue.
I don't think he knows more than anyone else does. Being a mod doesn't give you direct access to inside information or anything, and it would be quite a big problem if it did.
Hopping can still happen, so this want even fixing that:
-on Friday I joined a guild asking for help, I finished their t7 win no rewards
-we then did three t7s after my cooldown and I ranked 1, 4, and 8. The 1 is because they failed to solo p1.
- I missed out on two raids at home, but I did three; I also did not take away Han shards from my guild, they lost out on 600 contribution while I was gone.
Sure merc-style hopping can happen, but the limitation on rewards makes it unprofitable. Alting is still profitable, however, and to the extent that gaining the rewards from 6 raids per week is more than intended, this would be an exploit.
I think they do want to move to an player-account-specific method of limiting raid rewards to 15 per 30 days, but they haven't been able to code it yet. This would be removing the exploit that alters can currently take advantage.
I don't disagree with those points. So the we can agree the fix has nothing to do with merc activity but "alt" activity. Until it's put into the ToS, it's moot. I was shocked after Han was activated early, hopping condoned by NRAJ, and going went through the ToS to find no limitation on Alts.
But given my activity of hopping this week has now been posted here, presented to be shared, and any sharing discussion of exploits is a ban-able offence; I would therefore be banned. Right? Alts are condoned.
That's the TOS of this forum. I already received my "warning" on another topic where I tried to
provide constructive feedback about the development team. Can't wait to see if my sharing this activity gets me banned to find out.
I don't disagree with those points. So the we can agree the fix has nothing to do with merc activity but "alt" activity. Until it's put into the ToS, it's moot. I was shocked after Han was activated early, hopping condoned by NRAJ, and going went through the ToS to find no limitation on Alts.
They will never put specific things into ToS, because ToS are meant to be broad, expansive, and non-specific. And if you required everything to be in the ToS before you could take action, they would have to update the ToS after every exploit is discovered, and then only punish those who continued to use the exploit after the ToS update incorporating it. That's not a workable solution. Basically, all they have to do is declare something is an exploit, as an unintended or undocumented feature/bug, and then it triggers the ToS.
As for merc-style hopping, it's not really an exploit because you're not gaining extra rewards.
I don't disagree with those points. So the we can agree the fix has nothing to do with merc activity but "alt" activity. Until it's put into the ToS, it's moot. I was shocked after Han was activated early, hopping condoned by NRAJ, and going went through the ToS to find no limitation on Alts.
They will never put specific things into ToS, because ToS are meant to be broad, expansive, and non-specific. And if you required everything to be in the ToS before you could take action, they would have to update the ToS after every exploit is discovered, and then only punish those who continued to use the exploit after the ToS update incorporating it. That's not a workable solution. Basically, all they have to do is declare something is an exploit, as an unintended or undocumented feature/bug, and then it triggers the ToS.
As for merc-style hopping, it's not really an exploit because you're not gaining extra rewards.
I agree with this fully except for one point. At the end- I did get an extra award based on my weekend activity. I lost on two rewards on my guild to do three "hopping". I posted earlier on this topic. Still doesn't seem an issue - if what I did and what I posted does not get me banned then:
@Asic You know you aren't getting banned for discussing guild hopping and alt farming. No one has said you will, you are right about the ToS about communicating and promoting the use of exploits. NRAJ essentially broke them himself and that is why no one will get punished for it. For them to U-Turn on the initial comments is not how organisations clean this sort of bad press up. They do it by burying their heads in the sand and ignoring the issue until it goes away, people who bring it up or point out the obvious then become the bad guys. It's sad but it works like that in all organisations. How do you think the other devs feel about what NRAJ did? Do you think they mind all the trouble that has been caused as a result? But they all have to work together... so it goes unspoken and they just do the best they can. If they were going to fix this they would of revoked his initial statement and appologised for the confusion stating that his statement was made without proper consideration.
What appears to be happening is that they are closing the loopholes with code, i can't see anyone getting punished or having assets stripped. Personally I'd be up for a bounty hunter / merc feature for raids or just the option to cash more guild currency so a guild can raid more often. As it stands the merc/alt/guild hopping just completely defies the point of being in a guild.
Replies
He needs more pictures I think..it didn't sink in the first time
Lol, Yeah more pictures please. While your at it, edit the definition of exploit so we can stop calling exploits exploits as it seems to be upsetting the people who use them in this game.
EA released guilds and didnt think off guild hopping!
Then they did not send a clear message regarding guild hopping being ok to do or not.
Now they created some extra hoops and somehow but not really called it an exploit but still allow it
Without a totally clear message, they cant go punish people, as easy as that...
And no, the new announcement is still no clear message... They did not say anything along the lines of "guild hopping is considered a punishable offense"
At the end of the day who cares about definitions of what exploits are and what they are not?
Last but not least i have 1 more thing to say to OP and george: the heck is wrong with you people? You 2 really that bored? Whenever you encounter something thats according to your opinion unfair, wrong, unbalanced or whatever, you guys come to the forums with a set mind, cry for this and that and dont accept other opinions or explanations no matter what...
And to the rest: DONT FEED THE TROLL!
You are Mr. Wheredidisaythat; the person that thinks everything written in response has to be directly related to what you wrote beforehand as you are both judge and jury of the topic. I'll do as I please
Who cares who is winning here?
Devs didnt send a clear message so this discussion is useless
I do when your trying to herd the majority into believing it's the other way around and calling me a troll, crybaby and whatever else your wall of projection contained.
The point about the devs being unclear is interesting however. How do you think they could draw the line? Do you think they should make multiple raiding an ingame feature? A merc feature? or just outlaw it all?
And I'll respond as I see fit (though I do generally think that posts that quote me or call me out are related to what I wrote). By the way, here's a mod explaining how things work:
TOS neither prohibit use of Alts or guild hopping/ Merc activity. Whatsoever.
Maybe you have been through it but I have come to a different conclusion. The Vader exploit was clear manipulation of getting same rewards multiple items, same as the raid reward exploit.
Alt usage in most games is typically specifically called out where games require teamwork. It was likely intentionally left out, thinking a PTP player making an alt would become a dual PTP account. $$$$.
Guild hopping / merc work was specifically endorsed by developers via NRAJ post.
The developers are the ones that get to define exploit, not you.
It's nice you have the right to get your irredeemable topic closed. Everything I wrote upto a point was related to what's being talked, bringing in new information that your limited nonhopping vantage didn't have, I was extra careful not to burden anyone other than myself for obvious reasons. You choose to ignore it and deem it irrelevant. Keep on it by all means. I can't wait to read 30 pages of nothing sandwiched into nothing.
Here was bentwookies response to that. Presumably he knows more than you or I on the subject, however but needless to say that hopping was not the issue.
Hopping can still happen, so this want even fixing that:
-on Friday I joined a guild asking for help, I finished their t7 win no rewards
-we then did three t7s after my cooldown and I ranked 1, 4, and 8. The 1 is because they failed to solo p1.
- I missed out on two raids at home, but I did three; I also did not take away Han shards from my guild, they lost out on 600 contribution while I was gone.
So it's a trade off. But not an exploit.
No George-i posted 5 pages back and you conveniently decided not to comment. It's never been an exploit. Known exploits ASSOCIATED with-not the act itself. It won't be looked at because, quite simply-you're wrong. Yours and Scruffy's arguments are baseless. And one more time-The ONLY reason it has been effectively stopped or curtailed was to create a paywall for FTP players. Not hamper the mercs.
Do these guys even realize that hopping and alts were good for the player base? EA/CG keep adding paywall after paywall. These were the only LEGAL means to get ahead in game. And these clowns @GeorgeRules and @Scruffy_Looking want to blame one good thing going for the player base.
These two are the biggest trolls. Stop feeding the trolls and responding to this thread. Obviously, these two don't have real life friends and want to spend all their time blaming people on a mobile game. Thats right, a mobile game where you get nothing in the end. And these two losers want to argue one thing that was good for player base on a mobile game.
@GeorgeRules and @Scruffy_Looking ...get outside the house and get a life...instead of shiitting on one good thing the player base had.
Moving forwards..... What should be done? There are different views on this... Instead of posting about how aweful I am for showing people up, how about posting how you feel about the actual topic.
Sure merc-style hopping can happen, but the limitation on rewards makes it unprofitable. Alting is still profitable, however, and to the extent that gaining the rewards from 6 raids per week is more than intended, this would be an exploit.
I think they do want to move to an player-account-specific method of limiting raid rewards to 15 per 30 days, but they haven't been able to code it yet. This would be removing the exploit that alters can currently take advantage.
I don't disagree with those points. So the we can agree the fix has nothing to do with merc activity but "alt" activity. Until it's put into the ToS, it's moot. I was shocked after Han was activated early, hopping condoned by NRAJ, and going went through the ToS to find no limitation on Alts.
But given my activity of hopping this week has now been posted here, presented to be shared, and any sharing discussion of exploits is a ban-able offence; I would therefore be banned. Right? Alts are condoned.
That's the TOS of this forum. I already received my "warning" on another topic where I tried to
provide constructive feedback about the development team. Can't wait to see if my sharing this activity gets me banned to find out.
As for merc-style hopping, it's not really an exploit because you're not gaining extra rewards.
I agree with this fully except for one point. At the end- I did get an extra award based on my weekend activity. I lost on two rewards on my guild to do three "hopping". I posted earlier on this topic. Still doesn't seem an issue - if what I did and what I posted does not get me banned then:
1) I did get extra rewards
2) not an exploit
What appears to be happening is that they are closing the loopholes with code, i can't see anyone getting punished or having assets stripped. Personally I'd be up for a bounty hunter / merc feature for raids or just the option to cash more guild currency so a guild can raid more often. As it stands the merc/alt/guild hopping just completely defies the point of being in a guild.