So you agree it's an exploit by the general consensus of the term by pretty much the whole worlds definition of it (Wikipedia)? But not in this instance? Again a single word answer will suffice.
No one is permitting or condoning the use of exploits and whenever an exploit has been used, those who used it have been punished.
Full disclosure--I am not taking a position on the ethicality of this "unintended feature", "exploit", or "loophole". Arguing that point, in my opinion, is pointless. You have people who don't do it for whatever reason who are calling it a breach of the spirit of the game. And you have people who defend it because they see it as an exploitable loophole, previously condoned by the developers. Whatever. Neither of you are going to sway the other in your thinking.
However, I do have to chime in here because Lithium--your attempts to argue your point are just terrible. This whole thread is a display of your circular reasoning, where you tout your personal opinions and convictions, claim them to be facts, and poorly attempt to justify your arguments with faulty logic. Whether you are right or wrong doesn't matter; as your atempts to argue your point are baseless because they do not reflect how the game is designed NOW.
In this entire thread you focus on a dated communique from the developers. Well, sorry, but the game has changed in this aspect, as it has in many other aspects.
The most telling part about how you are missing the point here is the excerpt I have cited from your last post. "No one is permitting or condoning the use of exploits and whenever an exploit has been used, those who used it have been punished." This punishment that you cite is the mandatory cooldown for someone swapping guilds. That is the punishment for using this exploit/loophole/unintended feature. Is it as severe as some of the ominous language in the ToS? No. But it is definitely an minor adverse action that has been implemented as a consequence for doing something that NOW is not intended by the developers.
Is it legal? Yes, because it is allowed in the coding of the game. Is there a punishment associated with this legal exploit? Yes. It's the cooldown period. That's the consequence put in place for those using the legal exploit. Whether or not it was a legal or illegal exploit in the past is immaterial. What matters is how the game is coded NOW.
Call it what you want. It's clear that nobody is going to change your mind, as you have dug in your heels and are unwilling to listen to other views. But bottom line, the developers have implemented the punishment of an exploit, as you yourself cite in your last post.
So you agree it's an exploit by the general consensus of the term by pretty much the whole worlds definition of it (Wikipedia)? But not in this instance? Again a single word answer will suffice.
So you agree it's an exploit by the general consensus of the term by pretty much the whole worlds definition of it (Wikipedia)? But not in this instance? Again a single word answer will suffice.
No. Refer to previous answers.
So you're saying because a dev said there's nothing wrong with using the exploit makes it not an exploit? And thus the legal, illegal exploit argument, when does an exploit stop being an exploit? Answer, when the developers build it in as a feature. Are they doing that? No. Are they building in ways to stop and discourage it. Yes. So is it still an exploit by my previous argument?
So you agree it's an exploit by the general consensus of the term by pretty much the whole worlds definition of it (Wikipedia)? But not in this instance? Again a single word answer will suffice.
No. Refer to previous answers.
So you're saying because a dev said there's nothing wrong with using the exploit makes it not an exploit? And thus the legal, illegal exploit argument, when does an exploit stop being an exploit? Answer, when the developers build it in as a feature. Are they doing that? No. Are they building in ways to stop and discourage it. Yes. So is it still an exploit by my previous argument?
No. They have all the power to implement any measure they want. Yet they discourage it, they do not desire the game to be played this way. Neither do I want a game where hopping is the norm. There's a difference between desire and enforcement. Current ruleset makes it less desirable, but it's still profitable if you put down the math. Is it worth the effort? Not so much for the majority of previous hoppers, only a small portion will continue to do so...way less frequently at that. The case is already closed. You happen to be the only one calling for a witchhunt. The op stated his stance is to set a precedent for such future pitfalls.
I'm not leading a witch hunt. Just presenting a solid case that Guild hopping/alt farming and alt factory are and were exploits. How they are handled is at EA discretion but the fact they are exploits is non disputable. You haven't given a solid argument that they aren't/weren't exploits. I'm open to changing my position but sadly you're arguing that the very definition of the word is wrong and that doesn't hold any ground with me.
So what I'm seeing here that exploiting or guildhopping wasn't illegal at first because Team Instinct was on the race to get the first Han Solo unlocked.
Now that the Han Solo unlock race is over it is ofcourse an exploit because of these rewards.
So it really is what suits EA/CG best. They won't ban their whales nor 50% of the mods on this forum that is from team instinct. Now the storm has blown over it is ofcourse illegal for the other 95% of the community. It's only legal if the people that spend in the thousands do it, when we Dolphins, f2p or p2p want to do it or use it it's illegal.
That's what really happend here and something which I called from day 1 when that announcement got out. It's legal as long as CG/EA benefits.
439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
@GeorgeRules Thanks for using the wikipedia definition of exploit. It led me to read the entire article which has given me some clarity as to some of the other arguments presented in this thread. I think its a worthwhile read for anyone on this thread.
Lets start with where I was wrong
1) Hopping/Alting were not origninally intended in the design according to INRAJ. (I'm assuming you didn't make up that quote.) Therefore, by the wikipedia definition, both are exploits.
2) However, once these exploits were discovered, they were condoned by INRAJ in no uncertain terms. In other words, the response to these exploits from game management was to accept them as part of the game. My mistake was concluding that once they were accepted, they can no longer be termed as exploits and therefore are not exploits. This may have also been what @Jyn_Erso_12 was referring to when he spoke about legal and illegal exploits.
Though hopping and alting are acceptable, they can still be termed exploits.
Moving on to where I was right
While hopping/alting were unintended/unplanned behavior, both were accepted in very clear terms by INRAJ in the post linked earlier. As they are acceptable behavior, there will be no punishment. The recent update can mitigate the advantages in some cases, but they are still acceptable behavior.
The way I see it, the OP AND @GeorgeRules see hopping/alting as an unaccepted exploit which is punishable while I now state that while both can be termed exploits, they are accepted in the game and therefore not punishable. There is no violation of the ToS.
However, I do have to chime in here because Lithium--your attempts to argue your point are just terrible. This whole thread is a display of your circular reasoning, where you tout your personal opinions and convictions, claim them to be facts, and poorly attempt to justify your arguments with faulty logic. Whether you are right or wrong doesn't matter; as your atempts to argue your point are baseless because they do not reflect how the game is designed NOW.
My understanding of what can be defined as an exploit was flawed, hence I was wrong in stating that hopping/alting are not exploits since exploits remain exploits even if accepted in a game. After reading the wikipedia article, I realize that a better choice of words would have been hopping/alting are accepted as emergent gameplay in SWGOH. That is a fact - you can still call them exploits but there is no punishment associated with them.
In this entire thread you focus on a dated communique from the developers. Well, sorry, but the game has changed in this aspect, as it has in many other aspects.
The communique maybe dated but it still completely valid. Recent changes do not render it invalid because alting and hopping continue to be allowed exactly as stated in the communique. The game has not changed in this aspect though it may have in many others.
Call it what you want. It's clear that nobody is going to change your mind, as you have dug in your heels and are unwilling to listen to other views. But bottom line, the developers have implemented the punishment of an exploit, as you yourself cite in your last post.
The punishment I was referring to in my earlier post related to how vader and multiple inbox rewards was handled. The advantages gained were completely reversed, and in some cases more than just the extra rewards were taken. These exploits were not condoned by the devs. Any future instances of a similar nature should also be punished. The key difference between the above and alting/hopping is that one set are examples of exploits allowed by game management, while the others are not allowed and therefore punished.
The advantages gained by hopping/alting in the past have not been punished and will not be punished in the future either. Restricting the rewards or making them harder to achieve is not punishment. The mechanism that has been implemented simply diminishes the overall scope of the exploit. Jesse's statement also make complete sense in this context - the advantages of known exploits are "mitigated."
So what I'm seeing here that exploiting or guildhopping wasn't illegal at first because Team Instinct was on the race to get the first Han Solo unlocked.
Now that the Han Solo unlock race is over it is ofcourse an exploit because of these rewards.
So it really is what suits EA/CG best. They won't ban their whales nor 50% of the mods on this forum that is from team instinct. Now the storm has blown over it is ofcourse illegal for the other 95% of the community. It's only legal if the people that spend in the thousands do it, when we Dolphins, f2p or p2p want to do it or use it it's illegal.
That's what really happend here and something which I called from day 1 when that announcement got out. It's legal as long as CG/EA benefits.
It was allowed because NRAJ didn't see it as an exploit and they couldn't patch it in time to stop the guy unlocking han. I'm guessing the notification and ability unlocking was all coded in. I could be wrong but I can't see the devs sitting around and waiting for it to happen.
@Lithium Complete U-turn from you there. Well done. You are mistaken though with the emergent gameplay part. If it was emergent they would not be closing it down or discouraging it. They would be making it a feature like the force close exploit and addition of the retreat button.
@Lithium Complete U-turn from you there. Well done. You are mistaken though with the emergent gameplay part. If it was emergent they would not be closing it down or discouraging it. They would be making it a feature.
The only change is my understanding of the term "exploit."
There have been plenty of instances in this game where progression has been slowed down like mods and raid gear. This is just another similar instance. They have not closed it down, though they may have discouraged some players from using the exploit by adding hurdles. This does not indicate they have not accepted the exploits as part of the game. If that was the case, they would have eliminated all scope of hopping/alting instead of mitigating them.
So what I'm seeing here that exploiting or guildhopping wasn't illegal at first because Team Instinct was on the race to get the first Han Solo unlocked.
Now that the Han Solo unlock race is over it is ofcourse an exploit because of these rewards.
So it really is what suits EA/CG best. They won't ban their whales nor 50% of the mods on this forum that is from team instinct. Now the storm has blown over it is ofcourse illegal for the other 95% of the community. It's only legal if the people that spend in the thousands do it, when we Dolphins, f2p or p2p want to do it or use it it's illegal.
That's what really happend here and something which I called from day 1 when that announcement got out. It's legal as long as CG/EA benefits.
It was allowed because NRAJ didn't see it as an exploit and they couldn't patch it in time to stop the guy unlocking han. I'm guessing the notification and ability unlocking was all coded in. I could be wrong but I can't see the devs sitting around and waiting for it to happen.
If my memory doesn't fail me and it rarely does, the first post about guild hopping was that it wasn't acceptable and it was punishable. I believe EA_Jesse stated this. Shortly after a new post from a diff dev (NRAJ I guess?) stated that it was legal till further notice.
Now it is illegal again.
Basically they knew it was an exploit but because certain top guilds and whales abused it (starting with the chinese one, team instinct even asked on forum and started using it after the chinese did), they said it was ok.
It's a bit obvious that now it is considered illegal again and they fixed it.
What about all the extra rewards, gear and shards people were able to stack?
Another pre craft issue 3.0. It's another advantage given to a certain group where the rest of the community can't use it anymore (not that I used it myself and I actually don't care personally). It's just measuring with double standards at given times. Everybody can see this is another move made that has snowballing effects which get ignored again.
439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
Again, I am starting to uncover the manipulation. Users who exploit these will be banned.
We will likely fix these problems in an upcoming release.
This is one of the quotes I found about the issue coming back from May. As you can see there has been more statements in that time about guild hopping. Some claiming it's allowed, some claiming it's allowed but they want to discourage it and some that say it is an exploit.
We all knew from the start it was an exploit due to the extra gear, credits and shards. Not to mention the endless stream of guild coins you could potentially farm.
They "fixed" that by setting a 30k cap per day. Now it's illegal again but what to do about the ones that benefitted greatly from this? It has a bigger impact on a player than the pre craft gear or mods issues.
439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
Part of @EA_Jesse's patch notes includes the following:
To incentivize players to remain in one guild and mitigate some known exploits associated with Guild Switching, there is now a 48 hour cooldown period where a player will not receive Raid rewards for a Raid completed within 48 hours of leaving the previous Guild.
So, guild hopping and alt farming has been officially described as a "known exploit." We all know that EA has punished exploiters in the past, as is currently suspending players who collected multiple raid rewards (even after those players received confirmation they could collect multiple raid rewards).
Yet we also know that guild hoppers have never been punished, and that they plan to continue to guild hop and complete 6 or more raids per week. And while they claim that they received confirmation from the devs that guild hopping was OK, we know that receiving confirmation is not preventing the current round of suspensions. So my question is whether those who continue to guild hop and alt farm will be punished for taking advantage of this "known exploit."
There's no claim, there are 2 official posts regarding it in the updates section:
Since it's obvious you don't take the time to research I'll give you some quotes from it.
It has come to my attention that there may be some unintended behaviour with guild hopping--a potential bug or the likes--that may cause players to get unearned rewards.
Let me state this very clearly: We are researching this. If you are caught abusing this, you will be banned.
We are fine with guild hopping right now, but we are not fine with exploiting the rewards structure for little-to-no work.
Now in case you're unfamilar with the english languange, "We are fine with" means it's ok, acceptable, not an exploit, etc.
Did you get that part or did you need pictures?
First off there is no exploit. There is nothing wrong with a player switching guilds, nor is there anything wrong with a main guild having a back-up guild. These things are neither fundamentally wrong, nor are they wrong in the spirit of multiplayer games.
I must stress, there is nothing wrong with guild hopping.
Did you follow that part or should I break it down some more? Not sure how much clearer n-o-t-h-i-n-g w-r-o-n-g can be made but I'll try.
There is nothing wrong with working within the constructs of a system to beat content.
Nobody is doing anything wrong here, and if anyone was cheating or exploiting, we would have taken action. Everything that these guilds are doing, any individual in the game can do.
This is the nature of multiplayer games, folks. Some people are always going to be pushing the boundaries and the intentions. Some will always strive to be ahead, and some will always find ways to win. So long as they do this in a legal way, we have no intent on hindering that. This is the reality of gaming.
Got it now? It wasn't a shady backroom deal. A CG dev posted here on the official forums making these statements.
Now all of a sudden they want to call it an exploit because some people are **** that they couldn't or wouldn't exert that level of effort and cried for it to end.
So the TL;DR of this thread is that Alt farming, Guild hopping and Alt factory are all Exploits, Exploits are covered in the Terms of service and punishment for breaking ToS is at EA discretion. Glad we got that cleared up. My work here is done.
Now you are reaching again. Plenty of options have already been discussed that would allow legit guild switches while blocking hopping/alting. A message from game management would also suffice.
We finally have an update that addresses hopping/alting and the door to do both is still wide open, but with a limited upside to the rewards that can be gained. The simple conclusion is hopping/alting are emergent gameplay with a new limit to the rewards that can be gained.
Lol, I'm not arguing with you anymore lithium. It was stated multiple times by devs and even in the opening patch that they wanted to find a solution that didn't punish legitimate users so take that as you will. I'll take the victory for alt farming, guild hopping and alt factory being an exploit and I'm glad that you know this is the case now. I appreciate it may take some time for this new found understanding to effect your other views on the subject but that was the only point I've been trying to prove here and I have. With that, I'm out.
So the TL;DR of this thread is that Alt farming, Guild hopping and Alt factory are all Exploits, Exploits are covered in the Terms of service and punishment for breaking ToS is at EA discretion. Glad we got that cleared up. My work here is done.
What you dont clear up is that hopping and alting have been accepted as emergent gameplay by the devs and while they can still be termed as exploits by definition, there will be no punishment.
I think you misunderstand emergent gameplay. What was said in the specific dev comment was they didn't have a problem with it at the time and you wouldn't get banned for using it as it didn't break any code, he also said that it would likely be patched and was unintended... That dev had very little understanding of what an exploit is. He saw a bug exploit as worse than a mechanic exploit even though the outcome has the same damaging effect on the game. Emergent gameplay suggest just that, that it emerged as something that made the game better and was adopted to become part of the game. Whilst you can argue that may be the case, it is not part of the game. It doesn't stop using exploits being against the ToS. So until it becomes an ingame feature, it is still an exploit and still against ToS which all players are bound to.
This is correct. This is, always has been, and always will be correct.
Watch:
1) Mods - did CG/EA benefit? Yep - people were buying crystals to refresh cantina energy to buy mods.
2) Mod nerf - did CG/EA benefit? Yep, people were NOW credit poor and started using crystals to buy credits as mods were now more expensive to level - and the drop rates were lowered, so people still bought cantina energy to try to farm more mods.
3) Armor nerf - did CG/EA benefit? Yep. People are NOW leveling defense mods, and gearing/leveling tanks that had been left on the backburner. Oh and since Sun Fac and Rex seems to be gin beneficiaries of the buff, whales are trying to top those two off if they hadn't yet.
Now simply apply to guild hopping....or any other change that's made. Don't look at game play, balance, customer happiness, common sense, Star Wars cannon, decency, integrity or anything else. Simply ask the question "Did CG/EA benefit?"
Simple.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
"To incentivize players to remain in one guild and mitigate some known exploits associated with Guild Switching, there is now a 48 hour cooldown period where a player will not receive Raid rewards for a Raid completed within 48 hours of leaving the previous Guild."
If guild hopping and alt farming were exploits and against TOS, the sentence would have read:
To incentivize players to remain in one guild and mitigate THE known exploits OF Guild Switching AND ALT FARMING, there is now a 48 hour cooldown period where a player will not receive Raid rewards for a Raid completed within 48 hours of leaving the previous Guild. VIOLATIONS OF THIS EXPLOIT WILL BE PUNISHED.
That's simple English and pretty self explanatory. A known exploit ASSOCIATED with-not the act itself. Again-simple to understand. What was that exploit? I don't know. It's never been made clear. Certainly not the act itself or the wording would have been different. In the beginning, there was a way to deposit more than 30k coins in a guild per day. I think that was an exploit-but it was fixed. There was the multiple rewards collecting-that was an exploit and it was fixed. If there were any others-i'm not aware and neither is the player base i play with. If the devs thought hopping or alt farming was against TOS and an exploit, they would have spelled it out. Like they did with all other exploits. They didn't did they? Therefore NO EXPLOIT. But keep banging that drum guys. Oh, and hopping is alive and well. Guys can do it full time for up to 21 raids in 2 weeks. Perfectly acceptable and within the new guidelines and game mechanics. No exploit, no punishment-Nothing.
I think you misunderstand emergent gameplay. What was said in the specific dev comment was they didn't have a problem with it at the time and you wouldn't get banned for using it as it didn't break any code, he also said that it would likely be patched and was unintended... That dev had very little understanding of what an exploit is. He sees a bug exploit as worse than a mechanic exploit even though the outcome has the same damaging effect on the game. Emergent gameplay suggest just that, that it emerged as something that made the game better and was adopted to become part of the game. Whilst you can argue that may be the case, it is not part of the game. It doesn't stop using exploits being against the ToS. So until it becomes an ingame feature, it is still an exploit and still against ToS which all players are bound to.
I understood it just fine.
1) The devs said they didnt have a problem with it. The "at the time" bit is what you have conveniently added while paraphrasing
2) That hopping/alting were unintended is what makes them exploits in the first place by the wikipedia definition you keep referring to. And that they were subsequently ok'd makes them acceptable in game
3) They did talk about a patch but even that discussion revolved around adjusting the rewards earned through raids on a hop - I remember them mentioning that you will only receive some but not all of the rewards. Their final solution follows that discussion since they have not stopped hopping but reduced the potential rewards that can be gained.
4) Of course I can argue that there are benefits and I would like it to be emergent gameplay. Seems like some of those arguments resonate with the devs - and they have explicitly allowed for it to continue over multiple updates. ToS violation is irrelevant when an exploit is allowed in the game since EA have used their discretion and let it continue.
Finally, as far as the devs understanding vs your understanding of an exploit is concerned - get over yourself. The only understanding that is relevant is that of the devs. The only opinions and decisions relevant are those of the devs. At this stage, none of their decisions about hopping/alting mirror your opinions. They are still legit as of the latest update.
The "at this time" was actually almost a direct quote. His words were along the lines of "While we are fine with it for now, don't expect this not to change in the future".
You are right the devs are the authority, but they don't have the power to shake the ground and change facts, the ToS which they can change remain unchanged. They can also make mistakes and be wrong sometimes and possibly overlook certain things in the heat of the moment, we are all human after all. I never argued that they said it wasn't ok, I just put forward a logical conclusion backed it up with facts and no one has anything other than "devs said" as a counter arguement.
If a dev said "collect away" and people did and it turned out to be a bug, would the dev punish players for making an obvious mistake? Who is in the wrong? Both made mistakes for that incident yet the players who exploited it got punished. The dev probably didn't realise it was an exploit, the this the that, there are a million ways you can argue who was right and who was wrong but the conclusion that both made mistakes is correct. The reason players got punished in that situation was because they exploited a bug and broke the ToS, the "devs said to do it" unfortunately isn't an arguement against that fact and doesn't get people of the hook although I'm sure it was taken into account.
TOS is not the bible you know, it's there to protect companies interests, not the reverse, players can not enforce TOS. But then maybe you don't. This topic turned into self defeating cheese&popcorn.
Replies
Full disclosure--I am not taking a position on the ethicality of this "unintended feature", "exploit", or "loophole". Arguing that point, in my opinion, is pointless. You have people who don't do it for whatever reason who are calling it a breach of the spirit of the game. And you have people who defend it because they see it as an exploitable loophole, previously condoned by the developers. Whatever. Neither of you are going to sway the other in your thinking.
However, I do have to chime in here because Lithium--your attempts to argue your point are just terrible. This whole thread is a display of your circular reasoning, where you tout your personal opinions and convictions, claim them to be facts, and poorly attempt to justify your arguments with faulty logic. Whether you are right or wrong doesn't matter; as your atempts to argue your point are baseless because they do not reflect how the game is designed NOW.
In this entire thread you focus on a dated communique from the developers. Well, sorry, but the game has changed in this aspect, as it has in many other aspects.
The most telling part about how you are missing the point here is the excerpt I have cited from your last post. "No one is permitting or condoning the use of exploits and whenever an exploit has been used, those who used it have been punished." This punishment that you cite is the mandatory cooldown for someone swapping guilds. That is the punishment for using this exploit/loophole/unintended feature. Is it as severe as some of the ominous language in the ToS? No. But it is definitely an minor adverse action that has been implemented as a consequence for doing something that NOW is not intended by the developers.
Is it legal? Yes, because it is allowed in the coding of the game. Is there a punishment associated with this legal exploit? Yes. It's the cooldown period. That's the consequence put in place for those using the legal exploit. Whether or not it was a legal or illegal exploit in the past is immaterial. What matters is how the game is coded NOW.
Call it what you want. It's clear that nobody is going to change your mind, as you have dug in your heels and are unwilling to listen to other views. But bottom line, the developers have implemented the punishment of an exploit, as you yourself cite in your last post.
No. Refer to previous answers.
So you're saying because a dev said there's nothing wrong with using the exploit makes it not an exploit? And thus the legal, illegal exploit argument, when does an exploit stop being an exploit? Answer, when the developers build it in as a feature. Are they doing that? No. Are they building in ways to stop and discourage it. Yes. So is it still an exploit by my previous argument?
No. They have all the power to implement any measure they want. Yet they discourage it, they do not desire the game to be played this way. Neither do I want a game where hopping is the norm. There's a difference between desire and enforcement. Current ruleset makes it less desirable, but it's still profitable if you put down the math. Is it worth the effort? Not so much for the majority of previous hoppers, only a small portion will continue to do so...way less frequently at that. The case is already closed. You happen to be the only one calling for a witchhunt. The op stated his stance is to set a precedent for such future pitfalls.
Now that the Han Solo unlock race is over it is ofcourse an exploit because of these rewards.
So it really is what suits EA/CG best. They won't ban their whales nor 50% of the mods on this forum that is from team instinct. Now the storm has blown over it is ofcourse illegal for the other 95% of the community. It's only legal if the people that spend in the thousands do it, when we Dolphins, f2p or p2p want to do it or use it it's illegal.
That's what really happend here and something which I called from day 1 when that announcement got out. It's legal as long as CG/EA benefits.
Lets start with where I was wrong
1) Hopping/Alting were not origninally intended in the design according to INRAJ. (I'm assuming you didn't make up that quote.) Therefore, by the wikipedia definition, both are exploits.
2) However, once these exploits were discovered, they were condoned by INRAJ in no uncertain terms. In other words, the response to these exploits from game management was to accept them as part of the game. My mistake was concluding that once they were accepted, they can no longer be termed as exploits and therefore are not exploits. This may have also been what @Jyn_Erso_12 was referring to when he spoke about legal and illegal exploits.
Though hopping and alting are acceptable, they can still be termed exploits.
Moving on to where I was right
While hopping/alting were unintended/unplanned behavior, both were accepted in very clear terms by INRAJ in the post linked earlier. As they are acceptable behavior, there will be no punishment. The recent update can mitigate the advantages in some cases, but they are still acceptable behavior.
The way I see it, the OP AND @GeorgeRules see hopping/alting as an unaccepted exploit which is punishable while I now state that while both can be termed exploits, they are accepted in the game and therefore not punishable. There is no violation of the ToS.
My understanding of what can be defined as an exploit was flawed, hence I was wrong in stating that hopping/alting are not exploits since exploits remain exploits even if accepted in a game. After reading the wikipedia article, I realize that a better choice of words would have been hopping/alting are accepted as emergent gameplay in SWGOH. That is a fact - you can still call them exploits but there is no punishment associated with them.
The communique maybe dated but it still completely valid. Recent changes do not render it invalid because alting and hopping continue to be allowed exactly as stated in the communique. The game has not changed in this aspect though it may have in many others.
The punishment I was referring to in my earlier post related to how vader and multiple inbox rewards was handled. The advantages gained were completely reversed, and in some cases more than just the extra rewards were taken. These exploits were not condoned by the devs. Any future instances of a similar nature should also be punished. The key difference between the above and alting/hopping is that one set are examples of exploits allowed by game management, while the others are not allowed and therefore punished.
The advantages gained by hopping/alting in the past have not been punished and will not be punished in the future either. Restricting the rewards or making them harder to achieve is not punishment. The mechanism that has been implemented simply diminishes the overall scope of the exploit. Jesse's statement also make complete sense in this context - the advantages of known exploits are "mitigated."
It was allowed because NRAJ didn't see it as an exploit and they couldn't patch it in time to stop the guy unlocking han. I'm guessing the notification and ability unlocking was all coded in. I could be wrong but I can't see the devs sitting around and waiting for it to happen.
The only change is my understanding of the term "exploit."
There have been plenty of instances in this game where progression has been slowed down like mods and raid gear. This is just another similar instance. They have not closed it down, though they may have discouraged some players from using the exploit by adding hurdles. This does not indicate they have not accepted the exploits as part of the game. If that was the case, they would have eliminated all scope of hopping/alting instead of mitigating them.
Why wouldn't they stop the practice entirely if it wasn't accepted?
If my memory doesn't fail me and it rarely does, the first post about guild hopping was that it wasn't acceptable and it was punishable. I believe EA_Jesse stated this. Shortly after a new post from a diff dev (NRAJ I guess?) stated that it was legal till further notice.
Now it is illegal again.
Basically they knew it was an exploit but because certain top guilds and whales abused it (starting with the chinese one, team instinct even asked on forum and started using it after the chinese did), they said it was ok.
It's a bit obvious that now it is considered illegal again and they fixed it.
What about all the extra rewards, gear and shards people were able to stack?
Another pre craft issue 3.0. It's another advantage given to a certain group where the rest of the community can't use it anymore (not that I used it myself and I actually don't care personally). It's just measuring with double standards at given times. Everybody can see this is another move made that has snowballing effects which get ignored again.
CG_NotReallyAJedi wrote:
Again, I am starting to uncover the manipulation. Users who exploit these will be banned.
We will likely fix these problems in an upcoming release.
This is one of the quotes I found about the issue coming back from May. As you can see there has been more statements in that time about guild hopping. Some claiming it's allowed, some claiming it's allowed but they want to discourage it and some that say it is an exploit.
We all knew from the start it was an exploit due to the extra gear, credits and shards. Not to mention the endless stream of guild coins you could potentially farm.
They "fixed" that by setting a 30k cap per day. Now it's illegal again but what to do about the ones that benefitted greatly from this? It has a bigger impact on a player than the pre craft gear or mods issues.
Post of the year! This needs to be frammed
Now you are reaching again. Plenty of options have already been discussed that would allow legit guild switches while blocking hopping/alting. A message from game management would also suffice.
We finally have an update that addresses hopping/alting and the door to do both is still wide open, but with a limited upside to the rewards that can be gained. The simple conclusion is hopping/alting are emergent gameplay with a new limit to the rewards that can be gained.
What you dont clear up is that hopping and alting have been accepted as emergent gameplay by the devs and while they can still be termed as exploits by definition, there will be no punishment.
This is correct. This is, always has been, and always will be correct.
Watch:
1) Mods - did CG/EA benefit? Yep - people were buying crystals to refresh cantina energy to buy mods.
2) Mod nerf - did CG/EA benefit? Yep, people were NOW credit poor and started using crystals to buy credits as mods were now more expensive to level - and the drop rates were lowered, so people still bought cantina energy to try to farm more mods.
3) Armor nerf - did CG/EA benefit? Yep. People are NOW leveling defense mods, and gearing/leveling tanks that had been left on the backburner. Oh and since Sun Fac and Rex seems to be gin beneficiaries of the buff, whales are trying to top those two off if they hadn't yet.
Now simply apply to guild hopping....or any other change that's made. Don't look at game play, balance, customer happiness, common sense, Star Wars cannon, decency, integrity or anything else. Simply ask the question "Did CG/EA benefit?"
Simple.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
#Georgeforpresident
#Georgerules
#Makeswgohgeorgeagain
If guild hopping and alt farming were exploits and against TOS, the sentence would have read:
To incentivize players to remain in one guild and mitigate THE known exploits OF Guild Switching AND ALT FARMING, there is now a 48 hour cooldown period where a player will not receive Raid rewards for a Raid completed within 48 hours of leaving the previous Guild. VIOLATIONS OF THIS EXPLOIT WILL BE PUNISHED.
That's simple English and pretty self explanatory. A known exploit ASSOCIATED with-not the act itself. Again-simple to understand. What was that exploit? I don't know. It's never been made clear. Certainly not the act itself or the wording would have been different. In the beginning, there was a way to deposit more than 30k coins in a guild per day. I think that was an exploit-but it was fixed. There was the multiple rewards collecting-that was an exploit and it was fixed. If there were any others-i'm not aware and neither is the player base i play with. If the devs thought hopping or alt farming was against TOS and an exploit, they would have spelled it out. Like they did with all other exploits. They didn't did they? Therefore NO EXPLOIT. But keep banging that drum guys. Oh, and hopping is alive and well. Guys can do it full time for up to 21 raids in 2 weeks. Perfectly acceptable and within the new guidelines and game mechanics. No exploit, no punishment-Nothing.
I understood it just fine.
1) The devs said they didnt have a problem with it. The "at the time" bit is what you have conveniently added while paraphrasing
2) That hopping/alting were unintended is what makes them exploits in the first place by the wikipedia definition you keep referring to. And that they were subsequently ok'd makes them acceptable in game
3) They did talk about a patch but even that discussion revolved around adjusting the rewards earned through raids on a hop - I remember them mentioning that you will only receive some but not all of the rewards. Their final solution follows that discussion since they have not stopped hopping but reduced the potential rewards that can be gained.
4) Of course I can argue that there are benefits and I would like it to be emergent gameplay. Seems like some of those arguments resonate with the devs - and they have explicitly allowed for it to continue over multiple updates. ToS violation is irrelevant when an exploit is allowed in the game since EA have used their discretion and let it continue.
Finally, as far as the devs understanding vs your understanding of an exploit is concerned - get over yourself. The only understanding that is relevant is that of the devs. The only opinions and decisions relevant are those of the devs. At this stage, none of their decisions about hopping/alting mirror your opinions. They are still legit as of the latest update.
You are right the devs are the authority, but they don't have the power to shake the ground and change facts, the ToS which they can change remain unchanged. They can also make mistakes and be wrong sometimes and possibly overlook certain things in the heat of the moment, we are all human after all. I never argued that they said it wasn't ok, I just put forward a logical conclusion backed it up with facts and no one has anything other than "devs said" as a counter arguement.
If a dev said "collect away" and people did and it turned out to be a bug, would the dev punish players for making an obvious mistake? Who is in the wrong? Both made mistakes for that incident yet the players who exploited it got punished. The dev probably didn't realise it was an exploit, the this the that, there are a million ways you can argue who was right and who was wrong but the conclusion that both made mistakes is correct. The reason players got punished in that situation was because they exploited a bug and broke the ToS, the "devs said to do it" unfortunately isn't an arguement against that fact and doesn't get people of the hook although I'm sure it was taken into account.