Time to revisit raid rewards

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medetec
1571 posts Member
edited June 2018
This has been brought up constantly ever since the raid reward structure was announced, and the problem is just getting more serious as time passes.

Having rewards scaled on pure damage, most of if not all of which doesn't even count against the raid's total HP for high scoring players, is bad for guilds. Pitting guild members against their own guild is bad. Forcing guilds to invent external systems to limit play during raids so that everyone in the guild even has a chance to participate is bad. Everything about how the system is currently set up works against the idea of creating positive social communities that boost player retention, the usual goal of implementing guilds in the first place.

For the new raid EA_Jesse posted this: "We have also made adjustments to the Raid character shard payouts for Heroic difficulty. Players that earn spots 1-3 on the leaderboard will receive the highest amounts, while ranks 4-50 will earn the same number of shards. We made this change so that Guild members could acquire Raid exclusive characters at roughly the same rate."

Please consider taking this lesson and applying it across the board, to all rewards in all tiers. If you want to encourage competition, add guild-wide bonus rewards for the top teams on the guild vs guild leaderboard at the end of each month. With a new raid launching, this is a great time to address the issue before it spreads to the new content as well.

edit: Current best suggestion - Instead of scaling rank rewards by up to 1000% between 50th and first, set the scaling to 40% (if 50th gets 5 units or reward, 1st gets 7 units of reward), and on raid launch place everyone in the guild on the leaderboard at 0 damage.

February 2018 update:
medetec wrote: »
February 2017 update

It's been over a month since our last review and QoL updates are incoming. Never give up, never surrender.

Raid management for international guilds continues to be a right pain. There's no good reason I can think of that all members shouldn't be set at 0 on the board at raid launch so the full guild can get rewards without 24 hour wait periods enforced outside of the game. We can manage and remove underperformers from our guilds on our own. Let the entire guild get a payout on raid completion.

I'm still strongly in favor of a much tighter reward spread or the option for guild leaders to set guild rewards to equal across all ranks as giving players in a wide range of time zones a fair chance at a raid is almost impossible and raid completion should be about beating the challenge as a team, not challenging your teammates. This is an international game with no real way to sort guilds by region, I really feel like this is the absolute worst place to pit players against each other where we should instead be building social communities.

So uh, hello again ladies and gents. Its me again, your friendly neighborhood medetec. With another raid coming up, it's again time to review the raid design structure. I still pretty much stand behind the last review from 2017, with a few new additions.

Summary of previous:

At least the option for full even guild rewards on completion, just as TB and TW reward the guild cooperative completion of a guild challenge.

New ideas:

After the raid prize character is maxed out at 7* (basically 55 raid completions), allow guilds to sim the raid, like how GW will now be sim-able after a set number of completions

edit: June 24 2018

As we get further in to the newest raid, the time to complete it continues to drop and the raid gets harder and harder to schedule for international guilds. Let guild leaders, via a toggle, enable even rewards for the guild.

Guilds that like the current tiered rewards would be free to keep them but this would be, in my opinion, the single largest quality of life improvement for international, and even friendly local guilds. As a guild leader, raid times and rules are by far the largest headache attached to continued guild maintenance - and it shouldn't be.

Simply add an *optional* toggle for guilds to sum total shards, drops and currencies for the number of players in the guild, divide by the number of players in the guild, and distribute evenly.

The simple math example. A guild has 3 players. 1st place earns 12 shards, 24 g12 salvage and 24 other salvage. 2nd place earns 9 shards, 18 g12 salvage and 18 other salvage. 3rd place earns 6 shards, 6 g12 salvage and 12 other salvage. A guild could leave this as is, or turn on equalization, and all 3 players would get 9 shards, 18 g12 salvage and 18 other salvage. This would be optional and the total payout for the guild is identical in either situation, there is no net reward loss or buff.
Post edited by medetec on

Replies

  • Zombie8mylunch
    146 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    I would be in favor of a look back at payouts. I think there also has to be some reward for members that are no shows to raids that end in under an hour. This problem will only get worse on the Rancor raid as major contributors level their team to 85 and gear level 11. Maybe an option for members to enter a personal instance for one run if the raid is complete or something. But regardless members that contribute coin to open a raid need to get a reward of some kind. Without this we are going to under gear a good portion of every guild.
  • Maegor
    1217 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    +1

    Current guild evolution:
    • T1-T6 farm
    • Complete first T7 - Everbody happy with the huge amount of rewards
    • Week after first T7 - killing raid so quickly, guild has to implement rules to slow it down
    • 2 Weeks after first T7 - again killing raid too quickly, members leave, recruitment begins
    • Month after first T7 - members complain about ranks, members leave, recruitment continues, repeat
  • Maegor wrote: »
    +1

    Current guild evolution:
    • T1-T6 farm
    • Complete first T7 - Everbody happy with the huge amount of rewards
    • Week after first T7 - killing raid so quickly, guild has to implement rules to slow it down
    • 2 Weeks after first T7 - again killing raid too quickly, members leave, recruitment begins
    • Month after first T7 - members complain about ranks, members leave, recruitment continues, repeat

    This is exactly what is happening with are guild, its getting out of hand.
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    Even leaving out member turnover, we are having to come up with increasingly awkward rule sets to allow everyone a chance to hit the raid. That's just going to get worse as we level towards 85 and jump another gear level.

    If you were given the same reward for most rankings, there would be much less reason to cheese out 4m-10m damage single runs, possibly even give rewards to all members who contributed coins that week regardless of damage. Guilds should be a place for players to join together for a common goal, talk strategy and have fun. Organizing raids is becoming more and more of an exercise in frustration, and it doesn't have to be.
  • Note that the rewards system for the new raid is only for the raid toon shards, there will still be rankings for the credits and gear.

    I feel that there needs to be some incentive in raids to do well. If everyone gets the same rewards regardless of where they place, then why strive to place higher? Why try to do the most damage? Just send in a single toon and get your rewards, same as everyone else.

    There has to be incentive to do well. There has to be a reason for people to level otherwise useless toons. There also needs to be greater rewards for those that contribute more. How would you feel if you sent 7 fully starred/geared teams into the rancor raid and got the same rewards as the new guy who only has one 7* toon? You spend 20-30 minutes fighting, someone comes in with a single toon and in 20-30 seconds gets the same rewards as you.

    If everyone gets the same rewards, you will soon have problems where people aren't really interested in the raid, they all just try to send one toon to get their equal rewards, and you won't be able to complete the raid.

    I think the change to the shard payout is a good change. There is still incentive to place 1-3, and it doesn't affect incentive for placing higher for more credits and gear on the rest of the ladder.

    The key is being in a good guild that implements fair raid rules. In my guild we rotate raid start times and we have a 24 hour 0 tap period before the raid is opened to free for all. People send in their weakest toon to post 0 dmg and get on the leaderboard to ensure they get rewards. If you can't make it to the scheduled FFA time, you still get rewards for the raid. Those who contribute most, get the best rewards. There are penalties for posting damage before FFA opens.

    We also allow pre fighting, with additional rules. It works well for us. We have guys who regularly solo into p4 and post 8-10 million dmg, but they wait until p3 is complete to post so it is fair and others get a shot too. Can't have guys soloing all the way to p4 then posting as soon as raid opens beacause others wouldn't have a shot.

    There are many ways to work within the system that we have, just have to find what works right for you and your guild. I don't think equal prizes for everyone is the answer.
    It's a hard life pickin stones and pullin teats, but sure as gods got sandals, it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails....
  • @CptCaveman

    The problem is not that we cant find out of game rules to get everyone an attack, but that those rules shoudlnt have to exist and that they by necessity have to get more obnoxious with time.

    I get 1st place most raids, and I'd be perfectly fine getting lower rewards with everyone getting the same rewards across the guild. I'd welcome a cooperative effort... the competition should be vs other guilds, not your own. The "challenge" should be completing the raid, not who can do the most irrelevant damage in one attack. I've done a near full clear (~7m dmg) and it doesn't make me feel any more accomplished. It feels like if wasted an hour gaming a bad system. 0 damage of that 7 million actually counted against the raid total, so I didn't contribute anything to my guild. What does it matter who can do the most useless damage?
  • Because you have to have a reason to level up the toons you needed to get that big dmg. If you got the same prize as everyone, would you have spent the time and effort on the toons you use for the raid? I would guess that most people would just continue to work on teams they need for other areas of the game. They would be happy doing a few 100k of dmg and rely on others to do the big dmg to finish raid.

    There is an incentive to have a good raid team, higher rewards. Take away that incentive, and less people will be inclined to work on a good raid team.
    It's a hard life pickin stones and pullin teats, but sure as gods got sandals, it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails....
  • @CptCaveman

    But that damage doesn't matter. Everyone in the raid could auto the battle with a single squad and we would still finish, there's no relying on other people. The incentive should be having a raid difficult enough that its a challenge to finish, as a guild. Artificially ranking the "highest" damage, especially based on out of game rules, is not a real incentive. Even if some players get carried, that's not unusual for real raid systems and they can be removed from the guild if the guild feels they aren't contributing.

    Have you ever played a real raid in an MMO? The challenge is completing the raid, and loot distribution is even or random once it's done. Lower tier raids that are much below your character exist, the idea is to have higher tier raids that challenge you as well. The new AAT raid should (hopefully) challenge guilds, where the old Rancor raid should challenge new guilds, but for guilds that have leveled far past heroic rancor being a challenge should just be a loot source.
  • ARCTrooperFives
    737 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    CptCaveman wrote: »
    Note that the rewards system for the new raid is only for the raid toon shards, there will still be rankings for the credits and gear.

    I feel that there needs to be some incentive in raids to do well. If everyone gets the same rewards regardless of where they place, then why strive to place higher? Why try to do the most damage? Just send in a single toon and get your rewards, same as everyone else.

    There has to be incentive to do well. There has to be a reason for people to level otherwise useless toons. There also needs to be greater rewards for those that contribute more. How would you feel if you sent 7 fully starred/geared teams into the rancor raid and got the same rewards as the new guy who only has one 7* toon? You spend 20-30 minutes fighting, someone comes in with a single toon and in 20-30 seconds gets the same rewards as you.

    If everyone gets the same rewards, you will soon have problems where people aren't really interested in the raid, they all just try to send one toon to get their equal rewards, and you won't be able to complete the raid.

    I think the change to the shard payout is a good change. There is still incentive to place 1-3, and it doesn't affect incentive for placing higher for more credits and gear on the rest of the ladder.

    The key is being in a good guild that implements fair raid rules. In my guild we rotate raid start times and we have a 24 hour 0 tap period before the raid is opened to free for all. People send in their weakest toon to post 0 dmg and get on the leaderboard to ensure they get rewards. If you can't make it to the scheduled FFA time, you still get rewards for the raid. Those who contribute most, get the best rewards. There are penalties for posting damage before FFA opens.

    We also allow pre fighting, with additional rules. It works well for us. We have guys who regularly solo into p4 and post 8-10 million dmg, but they wait until p3 is complete to post so it is fair and others get a shot too. Can't have guys soloing all the way to p4 then posting as soon as raid opens beacause others wouldn't have a shot.

    There are many ways to work within the system that we have, just have to find what works right for you and your guild. I don't think equal prizes for everyone is the answer.

    Capitalism in a nutshell? But I agree. When you are actually competing for first, especially when it is close, you really want a reason to keep going. But if you are dominating, or have no chance, you can skip a few attempts, and it will make no difference. There is more collectivism associated with guilds and raids, rather than individual, but there still has to be a driving factor, and people have to want to be able to do more than just be last. This also makes me think of the reward difference in the raids, as being the top of a Tier 6 is worse than bottom of Tier 7, and more balance would create more friendly competition, and not people to get cheap easy rewards.

    I think the bigger problem is that Tier 7 is way too easy. It was scaled before mods, and higher gear tiers. You shouldn't need rules so someone should be able to solo it. But if Tier 7 was made more difficult, like halved TMR, then lower guilds would be at an unfair disadvantage for sticking to their skill level.
  • CptCaveman
    713 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    Yeah, I have done raids in mmorpgs. I understand what you are saying, but this is not meant to be a mmorpg. Raids in most of those type of games take massive coordination and hours to complete. It goes against the style of this game where you can hop on and off and complete things in your own time. I don't think players are looking for that kind of a raid with a huge time commitment.

    If you are a new player, just coming up and join a guild that does t7 raids with equal rewards, what incentive is there for you to build a good raid team. If your guild is already beating the raid and everyone gets the same rewards, why work on improving your raid team at the cost of not doing other toons that would benefit you in other areas of the game?

    The only reason that people can post big damage now is beacause there was competition for the rewards. If everyone got the same rewards, there is no reason to do more damage beyond what is needed to finish the raid. You will have a few gung ho guys that want to do max dmg and solo the raid, but the majority will be just happy with the same rewards as everyone else. You won't have to have a max teebo, so why bother. Would you have maxed teebo and decked him out with potency gear if you didn't have to to get better rewards?

    I don't think the system is perfect, if you can think up a better system that doesn't require a huge time sink post it up. I do not think that equal rewards for everyone is the answer under this system.
    It's a hard life pickin stones and pullin teats, but sure as gods got sandals, it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails....
  • Maegor wrote: »
    +1

    Current guild evolution:
    • T1-T6 farm
    • Complete first T7 - Everbody happy with the huge amount of rewards
    • Week after first T7 - killing raid so quickly, guild has to implement rules to slow it down
    • 2 Weeks after first T7 - again killing raid too quickly, members leave, recruitment begins
    • Month after first T7 - members complain about ranks, members leave, recruitment continues, repeat

    This is spot on and the amount of threads on here and reddit saying the say same thing speaks volumes.
    It should not be up to guild leaders and members to fix a poorly designed raid with house rules and 3rd party apps.


    DFAC - Australian timezone guild running heroic raids, looking for 600/600 players, PM for details.
  • CptCaveman wrote: »

    I don't think the system is perfect, if you can think up a better system that doesn't require a huge time sink post it up. I do not think that equal rewards for everyone is the answer under this system.

    @CptCaveman Well, you could do a much lower spread on rewards, but maintain the ranking system. right now lets say rank 1 gets 10 units of reward and rank 50 gets 1 unit. You could easily bring that in to be Rank 1 gets 7 units of reward, 2 and 3 get 6 units, 4-50 gets 5 units. Theres still a 20-30% bonus for getting top 3, so everyone would theoretically gun for it, but its more friendly/completion based and the guild doesnt gear up at such a wildly different pace. .

  • I could get behind that, but not equal for everyone. There has to be an incentive to get better.

    Everyone will have a different idea of what the rewards at each rank should be, and we could argue it all day. Devs have decided what it will be and I don't see it changing significantly in the future.

    The change with shard payout is good, it will allow people to acquire the new toon at about the same rate. I wouldn't even be against everyone getting equal number of shards no matter where they finish, as long as there are other incentives to finish higher like credits and better gear.
    It's a hard life pickin stones and pullin teats, but sure as gods got sandals, it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails....
  • scuba
    12142 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    I don't care so much about the reward structure.
    Simply put every member of the Guild on the leaderboard with 0 damage when the Raid opens.

    Most "raid rules" are built around making sure everyone gets into the Raid which is stupid to have to do.
  • Zooey
    1607 posts Member
    medetec wrote: »
    CptCaveman wrote: »

    I don't think the system is perfect, if you can think up a better system that doesn't require a huge time sink post it up. I do not think that equal rewards for everyone is the answer under this system.

    @CptCaveman Well, you could do a much lower spread on rewards, but maintain the ranking system. right now lets say rank 1 gets 10 units of reward and rank 50 gets 1 unit. You could easily bring that in to be Rank 1 gets 7 units of reward, 2 and 3 get 6 units, 4-50 gets 5 units. Theres still a 20-30% bonus for getting top 3, so everyone would theoretically gun for it, but its more friendly/completion based and the guild doesnt gear up at such a wildly different pace. .

    Isn't that what more or less the new raid is doing?
  • We have 10+ people in our guild who can solo P1. We had to change our raid rules to make it a "competition". I don't see how this system profits anyone.
  • Zooey wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    CptCaveman wrote: »

    I don't think the system is perfect, if you can think up a better system that doesn't require a huge time sink post it up. I do not think that equal rewards for everyone is the answer under this system.

    @CptCaveman Well, you could do a much lower spread on rewards, but maintain the ranking system. right now lets say rank 1 gets 10 units of reward and rank 50 gets 1 unit. You could easily bring that in to be Rank 1 gets 7 units of reward, 2 and 3 get 6 units, 4-50 gets 5 units. Theres still a 20-30% bonus for getting top 3, so everyone would theoretically gun for it, but its more friendly/completion based and the guild doesnt gear up at such a wildly different pace. .

    Isn't that what more or less the new raid is doing?

    Only for the heroic character shards as far as I'm reading, not for gear or for anything but heroic AAT. That update by Jesse is actually what I'm basing the suggestion on. Did you see an update that said more stuff was following suit?
  • CptCaveman
    713 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    ...
    scuba wrote: »
    I don't care so much about the reward structure.
    Simply put every member of the Guild on the leaderboard with 0 damage when the Raid opens.

    Most "raid rules" are built around making sure everyone gets into the Raid which is **** to have to do.

    Would be fine with this too. Would eliminate the need for a tap period and prefighting.
    It's a hard life pickin stones and pullin teats, but sure as gods got sandals, it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails....
  • This problem is beginning to manifest in our guild as well. There are a few key causes at play.

    The first is that it is possible to post such huge damage numbers in the first place. Because the Rancor and Pig Cap'n can be stun locked in the first place, the achievable damage output is effectively infinite. This is a design oversight but CG may have felt they couldn't change it after the fact. Given this fact, the Rancor is nowhere near tough enough to service 50 players.

    The second is that raids are internally zero sum competitions, so if any member posts huge numbers they are robbing the bottom end of the guild of equity, or worse the ability to even participate at all. At the very least all members should post to the leader board when the raid begins so nobody is excluded. The internal competition turns the raid into a rat race that is difficult to control and has to be gamed in order to ensure everyone gets rewards but still gets a chance to run for the highest rewards they can achieve.

    My bet is CG is gambling they can rectify this by making the AAT raid not so easily gamed so that people are posting more realistic numbers. If you made the assumption that the average member of a guild could post 240k in the Rancor raid, which is totally achievable with a non TM denial team, thenot the numbers work out. But relying on the raid being ungamable doesn't address the systemic problems the Rancor mechanics have flushed out and I believe those issues ought to be fixed.

    1. Don't make raids internally zero sum, make them internally cooperative, through both rewards mechanics and the actual raid.
    2. Make guild coordination around raids easier without external tools. Add a guild officer/leader editable splash message that pops up before you can start battle with the raid.
    3. Fix the Rancor mechanics so players can't lock him down and solo him. Debuffs like speed down and tenacity down never pop when the Rancor never gets a turn. Give the Rancor temporary TM reduction immunity if he gets hit enough by it. Maybe rebalance him a tad so that he doesn't eviscerate teams quite so fast without the TM lockdown.
    4. Consider adding a Legendary tier to the Rancor raid so he can better service mature guilds.
  • I would love to see the rancor rewards balanced out like the new one. But i would also like to see a tweek to the raid gear payout. Like gaurantee a complete component for the top 3 ranks not just a chance at one. The plans awarded are so haphazard due to rng that it can take 20 raids to complete a single component. For f2p or mostly f2p this can be very frustrating. Especially with certain components like the mk5 furnance that just about every hero needs to get to gear 9.
  • I wish rancor was a little more balanced. I was really late in joining a T7 guild, my own fault i suppose. Never thought to search around and find a new guild since mine was just working on T6 when i finally said i needed to move on thanks to finding reddit and seeing people advertise their guilds. I only have three gear 10 toons right now, i am having a terrible time getting the gear i need to gear people up. Most of my 7* are between gears 8-9 which kind of sucks, i mean they get the job done most times but it could be so much better if i had some more gear. I am also F2P so yeah, definitely makes things even harder for me.

    When i joined my current guild it was already well established and the same 2 people get the top 2 spots every single raid. I have not unlocked Han yet but have got *some* decent gear, i keep getting the same parts which isnt helpful because no one i am working on needs it. I have 2 full droid callers and about 200 salvage as well. Yet i need tons of furnaces, disk things and some other part and almost never get them. I also have only had full parts not even a handful of times. I understand that the higher ranks get the best chances but its disappointing getting that droid caller salvage for the 12th time. I just wish i could get more of the gear i need and more full parts. On a good day i rank between 11-15 or sometimes 16-20 if im late to a raid, we finish them in like 10 minutes as well so i sometimes miss it because of IRL stuff or my kids and end up in rank 40+.
  • They would be better off basing the rewards on damage tiers and not make it a competition in the guild. Make it scale based on percentile of damage you do compared to everyone in the game. This can adjust weekly and continue to Scale up. This encourages guilds to work together to help everyone yet allows EA to continue to dangle the carrot in front to encourage spending.
  • i've always said it

    damage tiers prizes for the win
  • Damage tiers would be a step towards eliminating internal competition, but they don't fix the problem that every point of damage I do is a point of damage no one else can do. My guild mates still lose equity if I hit hard enough to reach the highest tier.
  • I agree it would be awesome to see the rewards redistributed for the rancor raid. Without actually knowing the finer details of the new raid the concept of equal reward opportunities for ranks 3 thru 50 makes enormous sense.

    It allows for competitive in-guild activities to place Top 3 and doesn't egregiously harm the remainder of the guild as they all share the spoils more or less equally.

    I say yes please. Excellent suggestion @medetec
    | ANZGC | Exile |
  • I see the major problem with the raid itself which leads to the issues. The captain was far easier than P2,3 and esp P4. Was in one guild someone would open it a few hours before reset so he would get an attack on P1, then get a second one in before most logged in. By then it would be halfway done and even if you were way stronger, he would have #1 locked.

    It's also not hard to solo it, which is the biggest issue. I think that's why they never "fixed" Teebo, it would just triple the number of people who could solo it.

    It's seems they are very well aware of the issues and have taken some steps to fix some of the issues in the new raid but don't want to take the resources to fix the old one.

    My suggestions
    1) make a bottom catch all reward for those that contributed coins but didn't attack, or list them as 0 to start.

    2) tweak P1 so it's the same difficulty as P2 and P3

    3) make raids 24hrs from start

    5) remove retreat after 5 mins

    6) make it so the same different teams excel at different stages, like the new raid. Limit to two 5 team attacks per 24 hrs.

    7) prevent 100% TM locking. my damage depends solely on how long I can stand to keep attacking which is absurd. Teebo can almost do it entirely by himself evven with the 15% resist chance if you have speed and good RNG stealth. Maybe something like TM decay, they become more resistant to TM reduction as you progress in the attack.

    The most ideal guild is 3 guys who can solor or near solo and 47 active low levels willing to forgo the fun of a raid in exchange for easy raid gear early.

    This is a good thread with a lot of valid points and ideas. Hopefully CG comments.
  • @medetec I played wow for 3 years and loots were not distributed evenly, at least not in the top tier guilds, better players got higher priority.
  • Fave
    96 posts Member
    I suggested the same concept of having 2-3 players doing most damage, but realized that only encourages something akin to guild hopping, and the guild actually needs to be small for that to be effective. A guild of more than 20-30, still creates the same problems of low rewards at the bottom. Our guild has about 6-8 with a 7* Han and we've agree not to score more than 100k or so. And it's working to help the newer players or those that want to be F2P. We're seeing a lot of players now unlocking Han and even leveling up his stars. The problem I can see is that the mid range strong players are coming to a complete stand still, which also makes it harder to donate gear b/c of the lower rewards, but maybe more importantly is the issue of being behind in the new raid for doing this.

    This is a suggestion from when I played Modern War a few yrs ago. Guilds or teams would compete against each other in weekend wars that basically could never be beaten. Some events could be. It was the total damage that determined the rewards team members received. It wasn't even, but much more so than this system is. The only competition in this game that isn't against your own teammates is the individual arena battles. This is where I think the real change in how the game is played needs to occur. Guilds need to fight guilds.
  • Viserys wrote: »
    Damage tiers would be a step towards eliminating internal competition, but they don't fix the problem that every point of damage I do is a point of damage no one else can do. My guild mates still lose equity if I hit hard enough to reach the highest tier.

    It's not perfect, but at least the guild can coordinate to fix this problem. You can schedule it so everyone has a chance to enter the raid before anyone does damage, that way it's all over damage and no one is limited.
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    I played wow for 3 years and loots were not distributed evenly, at least not in the top tier guilds, better players got higher priority.

    @amementomori That was the guild choosing to reward certain players, or giving priority to players who needed certain items to progress, not the game choosing for you. Pretty much nothing about me getting top damage in my guild makes me a "better" player, and I'd be happy to have a less awkward loot distribution system even if my personal rewards were a bit lower.

    I'd be all for a proper loot distribution system where we could set up priorities, need/greed rolls and the like, but that seems pretty unlikely to be implemented. A much less aggressive reward scale, with about 40% bonus for first over last, and setting everyone in the guild to 0 damage when the raid starts so no one is prevented from getting at least bottom tier rewards, would make being a GM much more pleasant for me, and I assume would make the guild experience overall more enjoyable for pretty much all players.


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