Id simply cut the speed value on mods to 1/5.
So if you had a speed secondary of 20, it will now give 4.
+4 is still usrful for mirror matches, but maybe other stats are actually more important than that. I would probably choose 6% crit chance over the nerfed +2 speed mods that I would have.
Again, It's not really the amount of speed that is the problem. It's the power of going first, and that situation remains even if the efficiency is cut in half. How would you best make use of those 6% crit when you are stunned on your first turn, and dead before you take another?
Unregulated, untested, uncapped speed secondaries are one of the 2 worst things they have done in this game and by far the worst for competitive balance.
( The other is Sith Raid's lack of rewards vs investment and the complete disregard to the player base on the issue.)
The easy fix is that speed should not be alterable by mods. Every toon has a speed, and that's that. Mirror matches would still be a coin flip, and they should be. That would force everyone to think outside the box on strategy, and then boom, instantly diverse meta.
The easy fix is that speed should not be alterable by mods. Every toon has a speed, and that's that. Mirror matches would still be a coin flip, and they should be. That would force everyone to think outside the box on strategy, and then boom, instantly diverse meta.
Nightmare mirror matches are a coin flip today regardless of mods with all the TM gain. I'm not sure this is what we're looking for. If I've invested in gear / mods, then I shouldn't be subject to the whims of the Dark Lord of Randomness as to whether I win or lose a match.
The meta is pretty healthy today, if anyone remembers back to Fall of 2017 where we saw 50 straight CLS portraits when browsing ranks.
All characters should have a base speed. No character should be able to increase their speed in any way, shape or form.
Determining when a character makes a turn should be similar to a real battle that ebbs and flows. Turn meter gain and turn meter reduction allow teams to “increase speed/reduce speed” without necessarily guaranteeing that you are always going to go at a certain point in time. Enemy team heroes may remove your turn meter at a crucial point of battle that would hinder your team, OR you may be losing and one of your heroes uses an ability at the right moment granting your team turn meter that may enable to you to comeback and win the game. This is how battles should be fought.
Moving away from speed speed speed!!! and focusing on turn meter gains/turn meter reduction would allow everyone to build diverse teams from all heroes. As it is now, everyone runs the same old teams and there is no diversity.
All characters should have a base speed. No character should be able to increase their speed in any way, shape or form.
Determining when a character makes a turn should be similar to a real battle that ebbs and flows. Turn meter gain and turn meter reduction allow teams to “increase speed/reduce speed” without necessarily guaranteeing that you are always going to go at a certain point in time. Enemy team heroes may remove your turn meter at a crucial point of battle that would hinder your team, OR you may be losing and one of your heroes uses an ability at the right moment granting your team turn meter that may enable to you to comeback and win the game. This is how battles should be fought.
Moving away from speed speed speed!!! and focusing on turn meter gains/turn meter reduction would allow everyone to build diverse teams from all heroes. As it is now, everyone runs the same old teams and there is no diversity.
That's sounds so wrong. Tm is the game. How else is Rex still viable...
The way Speed works is an “always present” effect. So regardless of turn meter gains or reductions your Speed is always the same. That’s why people mod to make heroes faster, to be able to attack and get abilities off before the enemy does. Faster heroes always benefit more from turn meter gains and faster heroes are always hurt less when they are affected by turn meter reduction.
When you remove Speed as a stat that can be increased by mods, you shift heroes turns into an ever moving ebb and flow based off of heroes skills/abilities that usually have cooldowns, instead of just taking turns based off whoever has the highest speed stat. This allows strategy, tactical use of turn-meter based abilities, AND counter-play by enemies. All of a sudden instead of having the same team appearing as the meta, you would have a variety of teams show up.
Characters like Plo Koon all of a sudden become a valuable member of a Clone or Jedi team because he can grant his allies 50% turn meter with Take Charge, allowing him to tip the battle in his teams favor.
Characters like Old Ben now use Mind Trick tactically to remove enemy turn meter, instead of just constantly spamming it on cooldown for the ability block.
You can still have Speed Up and Speed Down to modify the base Speed stat of heroes during combat, but you remove the ability for players to just increase the base Speed of heroes through mods to ensure they always go first. You force them to use abilities, buffs, and debuffs in battle to gain an advantage. Tactical use of abilities would then help to determine the outcome of battles, not just whoever has the highest speed stat.
Why are we even talking about speed sets? It’s the secondary speed stats that are toxic to this gameplay in so, so many ways... I seriously take issue with it on so many levels that I’ll probably write a paper eventually. For now, how about this:
You know what’s a really bad idea in any competitive game?
Making your players feel like they aren’t in control of how well they do.
Mod set bonuses are gonna get reworked. Sit tight, for all we know crit damage will be the new meta
If I were a gambler, I’d put my money on tenacity and defense mods becoming the new meta. The least owned and utilized which means more panic farming aka $ generated.
All characters should have a base speed. No character should be able to increase their speed in any way, shape or form.
Determining when a character makes a turn should be similar to a real battle that ebbs and flows. Turn meter gain and turn meter reduction allow teams to “increase speed/reduce speed” without necessarily guaranteeing that you are always going to go at a certain point in time. Enemy team heroes may remove your turn meter at a crucial point of battle that would hinder your team, OR you may be losing and one of your heroes uses an ability at the right moment granting your team turn meter that may enable to you to comeback and win the game. This is how battles should be fought.
Moving away from speed speed speed!!! and focusing on turn meter gains/turn meter reduction would allow everyone to build diverse teams from all heroes. As it is now, everyone runs the same old teams and there is no diversity.
If this was the case EVERYONE would just use a Rex lead because he’s like a speed set on every character from any faction. TM gain mechanics would still rule.
How much did the meta change after ships 2.0? I'm expecting the mod rework to fall short, or even do the opposite of their intentions. Speed will still be better than anything else because if you go first and kill the enemy, it doesn't really matter how much crit damage he had.
It changed a lot; resource constraints though have prevented most of the game from finding it though. Thrawn / TFP / Biggs/ Vader teams are middling at best if people had more ships built / geared and omegad.
How much did the meta change after ships 2.0? I'm expecting the mod rework to fall short, or even do the opposite of their intentions. Speed will still be better than anything else because if you go first and kill the enemy, it doesn't really matter how much crit damage he had.
Ships 2.0 made ships way worse. Better hope the mod rework doesn't do the same
Ships 2.0 is an improvement. I see more diversity in capital ship choices, starting line-ups and reinforcements. Prior to 2.0, I faced thr same team every time. Kudos on the reinforcement skills btw.
Ships 2.0 is an improvement. I see more diversity in capital ship choices, starting line-ups and reinforcements. Prior to 2.0, I faced thr same team every time. Kudos on the reinforcement skills btw.
Diversity does not necessarily mean an improvement.
The reason for the diversity is because everything is so rng based (which is bad..) that people desperately try to come up with solutions to the rng issue. This doesnt necessarily mean that there is a cure (e. G. My geos win if Spy doesnt get abi blocked, and probably lose if he does - which is an 50% random check debuff).
Furthermore, I for one, do not have the same great feeling with running a 'dogfight' (3 ships) as if Im the Commander of a strategic massive fleet battle (5-7 ships).
So more diverse? Probably yes.
Improvement? Hell no.
Ships 2.0 is an improvement. I see more diversity in capital ship choices, starting line-ups and reinforcements. Prior to 2.0, I faced thr same team every time. Kudos on the reinforcement skills btw.
Diversity does not necessarily mean an improvement.
The reason for the diversity is because everything is so rng based (which is bad..) that people desperately try to come up with solutions to the rng issue. This doesnt necessarily mean that there is a cure (e. G. My geos win if Spy doesnt get abi blocked, and probably lose if he does - which is an 50% random check debuff).
Furthermore, I for one, do not have the same great feeling with running a 'dogfight' (3 ships) as if Im the Commander of a strategic massive fleet battle (5-7 ships).
So more diverse? Probably yes.
Improvement? Hell no.
Sorry my friend, but ships is RPS; you need a diverse fleet to get high % wins. There should be little to no RNG in ship battles once you have options and built. Multiple reinforcement options are key. If you're having issues with RNG my guess is you're still fighting Thrawn v. Thrawn mirror matches. AA and Tarkin ships PWN Thrawn.
Ships 2.0 is an improvement. I see more diversity in capital ship choices, starting line-ups and reinforcements. Prior to 2.0, I faced thr same team every time. Kudos on the reinforcement skills btw.
Diversity does not necessarily mean an improvement.
The reason for the diversity is because everything is so rng based (which is bad..) that people desperately try to come up with solutions to the rng issue. This doesnt necessarily mean that there is a cure (e. G. My geos win if Spy doesnt get abi blocked, and probably lose if he does - which is an 50% random check debuff).
Furthermore, I for one, do not have the same great feeling with running a 'dogfight' (3 ships) as if Im the Commander of a strategic massive fleet battle (5-7 ships).
So more diverse? Probably yes.
Improvement? Hell no.
Sorry my friend, but ships is RPS; you need a diverse fleet to get high % wins. There should be little to no RNG in ship battles once you have options and built. Multiple reinforcement options are key. If you're having issues with RNG my guess is you're still fighting Thrawn v. Thrawn mirror matches. AA and Tarkin ships PWN Thrawn.
As I said, Im running the geos, obviously under Ackbar, so please tell me more about being open to change...
Ive also given you a very specific example. If Tarkins ability block sticks, I lose, if I resist it, I win. As theres no way to change ship stats, like tenacity, theres literally no way to change this complete random roll.
Of course, I could bring in a cleanser, to get that debuff off, but lets count the ships.. There are 3 geos, none of them cleanser, so thats 4.. While you only have 3 ships. See my point? If I had 5 ships to begin with, Id bring a cleanser and out-strategy my opponent, but I just cant, because 3 ships is simply not enough to make such tactical decisions.
This is why fleetminus2 is a huge stepback and not an improvement. You want to allow players to succeed by being smart (making good strategical decisions) or by being persistent (farm the hard to get ships and g12 their pilots) - not by being lucky (rng).
Ships 2.0 is an improvement. I see more diversity in capital ship choices, starting line-ups and reinforcements. Prior to 2.0, I faced thr same team every time. Kudos on the reinforcement skills btw.
Diversity does not necessarily mean an improvement.
The reason for the diversity is because everything is so rng based (which is bad..) that people desperately try to come up with solutions to the rng issue. This doesnt necessarily mean that there is a cure (e. G. My geos win if Spy doesnt get abi blocked, and probably lose if he does - which is an 50% random check debuff).
Furthermore, I for one, do not have the same great feeling with running a 'dogfight' (3 ships) as if Im the Commander of a strategic massive fleet battle (5-7 ships).
So more diverse? Probably yes.
Improvement? Hell no.
Sorry my friend, but ships is RPS; you need a diverse fleet to get high % wins. There should be little to no RNG in ship battles once you have options and built. Multiple reinforcement options are key. If you're having issues with RNG my guess is you're still fighting Thrawn v. Thrawn mirror matches. AA and Tarkin ships PWN Thrawn.
As I said, Im running the geos, obviously under Ackbar, so please tell me more about being open to change...
Ive also given you a very specific example. If Tarkins ability block sticks, I lose, if I resist it, I win. As theres no way to change ship stats, like tenacity, theres literally no way to change this complete random roll.
Of course, I could bring in a cleanser, to get that debuff off, but lets count the ships.. There are 3 geos, none of them cleanser, so thats 4.. While you only have 3 ships. See my point? If I had 5 ships to begin with, Id bring a cleanser and out-strategy my opponent, but I just cant, because 3 ships is simply not enough to make such tactical decisions.
This is why fleetminus2 is a huge stepback and not an improvement. You want to allow players to succeed by being smart (making good strategical decisions) or by being persistent (farm the hard to get ships and g12 their pilots) - not by being lucky (rng).
I don't see your point cause you answered your own problem..bring in a cleanser. Geos are slow; they are vulnerable to early damage and debuffs. Have reinfs ready that help that...or switch to a Thrawn cap ship so you can heal / O down the enemy and ability block them back as well. But why "of course" running Geos with AA??? Who says that's where they are best with all the time? This is my point; if you're having RNG issues, try another tactic. With a good Geo set they run well under all cap ships, you shouldn't be losing with Geos at all. Gar and Plo are great cleansing reinfs that help heal...build them if that's what you're having an issue with.
Full disclosure though, I've been going heavy on fleet as I like it so I've been refreshing farming on reinf mats and have the following maxed:
Vader
Phantom
Ghost
Cassian
Biggs
Plo
Poe
Reaper
Also, having the 3 cap ships built well to swap back and forth based on the matchup helps; AA / Tarkin / Thrawn.
Ship 2.0 was mostly about them having to do something to nerf Chimaera, with a dabble of increasing viability beyond Biggs and 3 Ties (+1....most often the 4th Tie). They did a great job at that, other Caps are now more viable then ever.
Downside is fleet is less fun, but whatever.
Anyone that says Fleet isn’t RNG driven is mad, it is ALL about who sticks those early TLs and ABs.
How did this thread get from speed is broken to ships are broken?
I mean really hijacking a thread that is talking about issues that have been beat to death to talk about another issue that has been beat to death. I don't understand it, bit then again I'm just some crazy **** what do I know
Ships 2.0 is an improvement. I see more diversity in capital ship choices, starting line-ups and reinforcements. Prior to 2.0, I faced thr same team every time. Kudos on the reinforcement skills btw.
Diversity does not necessarily mean an improvement.
The reason for the diversity is because everything is so rng based (which is bad..) that people desperately try to come up with solutions to the rng issue. This doesnt necessarily mean that there is a cure (e. G. My geos win if Spy doesnt get abi blocked, and probably lose if he does - which is an 50% random check debuff).
Furthermore, I for one, do not have the same great feeling with running a 'dogfight' (3 ships) as if Im the Commander of a strategic massive fleet battle (5-7 ships).
So more diverse? Probably yes.
Improvement? Hell no.
Sorry my friend, but ships is RPS; you need a diverse fleet to get high % wins. There should be little to no RNG in ship battles once you have options and built. Multiple reinforcement options are key. If you're having issues with RNG my guess is you're still fighting Thrawn v. Thrawn mirror matches. AA and Tarkin ships PWN Thrawn.
As I said, Im running the geos, obviously under Ackbar, so please tell me more about being open to change...
Ive also given you a very specific example. If Tarkins ability block sticks, I lose, if I resist it, I win. As theres no way to change ship stats, like tenacity, theres literally no way to change this complete random roll.
Of course, I could bring in a cleanser, to get that debuff off, but lets count the ships.. There are 3 geos, none of them cleanser, so thats 4.. While you only have 3 ships. See my point? If I had 5 ships to begin with, Id bring a cleanser and out-strategy my opponent, but I just cant, because 3 ships is simply not enough to make such tactical decisions.
This is why fleetminus2 is a huge stepback and not an improvement. You want to allow players to succeed by being smart (making good strategical decisions) or by being persistent (farm the hard to get ships and g12 their pilots) - not by being lucky (rng).
Sorry your Geo's aren't working out. Considering I win with mine whether Spy gets ability-blocked or not, I expect that this is an issue of underdevelopment of your pilots and/or the ships in question as opposed to Ships 2.0.
I hate to hijack, but the previous post was correct. Ships 2.0 brought far more strategy and resulting diversity into a dull aspect of the game. I welcome changes that challenge the most successful players to THINK more instead of following the same boring roadmap tossed from GOH community to GOH community.
I hope that changes coming for mods follow a similar vein eventually, providing players the flexibility to really craft and combine them in creative ways to win instead of,"Duhr Duhr speed speed speed..more speed..."
Initial reports don't seem to indicate this, but maybe one day before the game is replaced by the newest craze...
Speed isn't really the problem. The problem is that going first is such a huge advantage. You can't get around that problem tweaking the speed itself. Even if it's less numbers, even if it's same numbers (ie totally random turn order), the one going first would have the same huge advantage.
That's pretty much intrinsic to any turn-based game with any amount of strategic depth, though. Getting to go first lets you do the first thing that screws with your opponent's game plan and puts them on the defensive, or sets up yours, which is a big deal.
For an example from another type of turn-based game I'm pretty familiar with, card games like Hearthstone see this as such an issue that they actively give the player who goes second an advantage (starting with one more card in hand than the player who goes first, plus the coin as a bonus, in Hearthstone's case) to try and balance out the fact that they're going second. And even then, analysis tends to show that almost all decks still end up with a higher win rate going first than second, because the advantage of making the first move is just that big.
Unregulated, untested, uncapped speed secondaries are one of the 2 worst things they have done in this game and by far the worst for competitive balance.
( The other is Sith Raid's lack of rewards vs investment and the complete disregard to the player base on the issue.)
Lol. The low rng chance of getting speeds above 15 is regulation enough. They are capped. The rolls can increase speed by no more than 6, and the chance of getting several +6 rolls is extremely low.
Replies
Again, It's not really the amount of speed that is the problem. It's the power of going first, and that situation remains even if the efficiency is cut in half. How would you best make use of those 6% crit when you are stunned on your first turn, and dead before you take another?
( The other is Sith Raid's lack of rewards vs investment and the complete disregard to the player base on the issue.)
Nightmare mirror matches are a coin flip today regardless of mods with all the TM gain. I'm not sure this is what we're looking for. If I've invested in gear / mods, then I shouldn't be subject to the whims of the Dark Lord of Randomness as to whether I win or lose a match.
The meta is pretty healthy today, if anyone remembers back to Fall of 2017 where we saw 50 straight CLS portraits when browsing ranks.
Determining when a character makes a turn should be similar to a real battle that ebbs and flows. Turn meter gain and turn meter reduction allow teams to “increase speed/reduce speed” without necessarily guaranteeing that you are always going to go at a certain point in time. Enemy team heroes may remove your turn meter at a crucial point of battle that would hinder your team, OR you may be losing and one of your heroes uses an ability at the right moment granting your team turn meter that may enable to you to comeback and win the game. This is how battles should be fought.
Moving away from speed speed speed!!! and focusing on turn meter gains/turn meter reduction would allow everyone to build diverse teams from all heroes. As it is now, everyone runs the same old teams and there is no diversity.
The way Speed works is an “always present” effect. So regardless of turn meter gains or reductions your Speed is always the same. That’s why people mod to make heroes faster, to be able to attack and get abilities off before the enemy does. Faster heroes always benefit more from turn meter gains and faster heroes are always hurt less when they are affected by turn meter reduction.
When you remove Speed as a stat that can be increased by mods, you shift heroes turns into an ever moving ebb and flow based off of heroes skills/abilities that usually have cooldowns, instead of just taking turns based off whoever has the highest speed stat. This allows strategy, tactical use of turn-meter based abilities, AND counter-play by enemies. All of a sudden instead of having the same team appearing as the meta, you would have a variety of teams show up.
Characters like Plo Koon all of a sudden become a valuable member of a Clone or Jedi team because he can grant his allies 50% turn meter with Take Charge, allowing him to tip the battle in his teams favor.
Characters like Old Ben now use Mind Trick tactically to remove enemy turn meter, instead of just constantly spamming it on cooldown for the ability block.
You can still have Speed Up and Speed Down to modify the base Speed stat of heroes during combat, but you remove the ability for players to just increase the base Speed of heroes through mods to ensure they always go first. You force them to use abilities, buffs, and debuffs in battle to gain an advantage. Tactical use of abilities would then help to determine the outcome of battles, not just whoever has the highest speed stat.
You know what’s a really bad idea in any competitive game?
Making your players feel like they aren’t in control of how well they do.
This^
If this was the case EVERYONE would just use a Rex lead because he’s like a speed set on every character from any faction. TM gain mechanics would still rule.
It changed a lot; resource constraints though have prevented most of the game from finding it though. Thrawn / TFP / Biggs/ Vader teams are middling at best if people had more ships built / geared and omegad.
Aren't people tired of using this excuse with every broken mechanic in this game? I'm tired of hearing it.
How long has this game been out and yet basic mechanics are still broken? There's no excuse. I played this game for 3 weeks and knew speed was broken.
Ships 2.0 made ships way worse. Better hope the mod rework doesn't do the same
Diversity does not necessarily mean an improvement.
The reason for the diversity is because everything is so rng based (which is bad..) that people desperately try to come up with solutions to the rng issue. This doesnt necessarily mean that there is a cure (e. G. My geos win if Spy doesnt get abi blocked, and probably lose if he does - which is an 50% random check debuff).
Furthermore, I for one, do not have the same great feeling with running a 'dogfight' (3 ships) as if Im the Commander of a strategic massive fleet battle (5-7 ships).
So more diverse? Probably yes.
Improvement? Hell no.
Sorry my friend, but ships is RPS; you need a diverse fleet to get high % wins. There should be little to no RNG in ship battles once you have options and built. Multiple reinforcement options are key. If you're having issues with RNG my guess is you're still fighting Thrawn v. Thrawn mirror matches. AA and Tarkin ships PWN Thrawn.
As I said, Im running the geos, obviously under Ackbar, so please tell me more about being open to change...
Ive also given you a very specific example. If Tarkins ability block sticks, I lose, if I resist it, I win. As theres no way to change ship stats, like tenacity, theres literally no way to change this complete random roll.
Of course, I could bring in a cleanser, to get that debuff off, but lets count the ships.. There are 3 geos, none of them cleanser, so thats 4.. While you only have 3 ships. See my point? If I had 5 ships to begin with, Id bring a cleanser and out-strategy my opponent, but I just cant, because 3 ships is simply not enough to make such tactical decisions.
This is why fleetminus2 is a huge stepback and not an improvement. You want to allow players to succeed by being smart (making good strategical decisions) or by being persistent (farm the hard to get ships and g12 their pilots) - not by being lucky (rng).
I don't see your point cause you answered your own problem..bring in a cleanser. Geos are slow; they are vulnerable to early damage and debuffs. Have reinfs ready that help that...or switch to a Thrawn cap ship so you can heal / O down the enemy and ability block them back as well. But why "of course" running Geos with AA??? Who says that's where they are best with all the time? This is my point; if you're having RNG issues, try another tactic. With a good Geo set they run well under all cap ships, you shouldn't be losing with Geos at all. Gar and Plo are great cleansing reinfs that help heal...build them if that's what you're having an issue with.
Vader
Phantom
Ghost
Cassian
Biggs
Plo
Poe
Reaper
Also, having the 3 cap ships built well to swap back and forth based on the matchup helps; AA / Tarkin / Thrawn.
Downside is fleet is less fun, but whatever.
Anyone that says Fleet isn’t RNG driven is mad, it is ALL about who sticks those early TLs and ABs.
I mean really hijacking a thread that is talking about issues that have been beat to death to talk about another issue that has been beat to death. I don't understand it, bit then again I'm just some crazy **** what do I know
Sorry your Geo's aren't working out. Considering I win with mine whether Spy gets ability-blocked or not, I expect that this is an issue of underdevelopment of your pilots and/or the ships in question as opposed to Ships 2.0.
I hate to hijack, but the previous post was correct. Ships 2.0 brought far more strategy and resulting diversity into a dull aspect of the game. I welcome changes that challenge the most successful players to THINK more instead of following the same boring roadmap tossed from GOH community to GOH community.
I hope that changes coming for mods follow a similar vein eventually, providing players the flexibility to really craft and combine them in creative ways to win instead of,"Duhr Duhr speed speed speed..more speed..."
Initial reports don't seem to indicate this, but maybe one day before the game is replaced by the newest craze...
For an example from another type of turn-based game I'm pretty familiar with, card games like Hearthstone see this as such an issue that they actively give the player who goes second an advantage (starting with one more card in hand than the player who goes first, plus the coin as a bonus, in Hearthstone's case) to try and balance out the fact that they're going second. And even then, analysis tends to show that almost all decks still end up with a higher win rate going first than second, because the advantage of making the first move is just that big.
Lol. The low rng chance of getting speeds above 15 is regulation enough. They are capped. The rolls can increase speed by no more than 6, and the chance of getting several +6 rolls is extremely low.