The description reads:
Han takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. During this turn Han ignores Taunts and can only use his Basic ability, but it will Stun the target for one turn and can't be Resisted.
Noting about TM
The only way to take a turn is to have 100% TM. That is why to get his "bonus turn", he starts with 100% TM.
Not to be too picky , but taking a bonus turn at the start of each encouter means going before turns start , which means no one elses turn meter should have moved. Or else if he goes after someone , how is that a bonus turn? Its not like he then goes twice when its his turn ? Where did his bonus turn go ? Because if i understand correctly , those toons who did go first are already accruing new tm , so where is the bonus ? I could be wrong idk?
Taking a turn at the start of an encounter in this game means getting 100% TM, as this is the only way to take a turn according to the game mechanics. Unless stated otherwise, all toons with 100% TM are subject to the coin flip. This is only recently changed from all toons without exception, with the Thrawn and GMY changes, both of which are to match the stated (or changed) ability description.
In some situations multiple toons can have 100% TM at the start of the event, i.e. - TM loaded event toons, TM loaded TW matches, and GW.
Unfortunately there is no wording in Hans current ability description to allow him to avoid the coin flip mechanics for 100% TM. Maybe that will change, but as of right now, that is the way it is described.
His bonus turn comes from the fact that he did not gain his 100% TM "naturally", hence bonus.
Errh the title "Shoots First"
The title is not the description of the ability.
ever seen "lord of hunger" eat anything?..... me either.
If they put an animation of nihilus eating a cheeseburger between p1 & 2 of the sith raid, that would be awesome.
Now I know what Nihilus is saying!
"Give me your French Fries."
"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...mostly"
The description reads:
Han takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. During this turn Han ignores Taunts and can only use his Basic ability, but it will Stun the target for one turn and can't be Resisted.
Noting about TM
The only way to take a turn is to have 100% TM. That is why to get his "bonus turn", he starts with 100% TM.
You’re wrong in saying this, otherwise certain events that force the opposing team to get two FULL rounds of turns right off the bat would still be subject to this RNG roll and they’re not.
They actually are. they event is programmed to lock the player behind, but in those events the TM loaded opponents are following the RNG roll just like always. this is specific to event opponents and has nothing to do with hans unique. but just like always he is given his bonus turn because he is sitting there with 100% TM.
The description reads:
Han takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. During this turn Han ignores Taunts and can only use his Basic ability, but it will Stun the target for one turn and can't be Resisted.
Noting about TM
The only way to take a turn is to have 100% TM. That is why to get his "bonus turn", he starts with 100% TM.
We’re all aware of what the description says. Beating it into our heads isn’t going to change the INTENT of “shoots first.”
Also, “bonus turn at the start” implies he goes first no matter what, much like Thrawn’s swap and GMY’s bonus turn makes the toon take an immediate turn. Specifically how they switched Thrawn’a swap to do this, it proves that 100% turn meter is not the only way to take a turn, as you say.
You can quote description all day, but it doesn’t change the fact Shoots First should shoot first, and you know it. Your “lord of hunger” comparison is moot, as Lord of Hunger is a metaphorical title for a Sith Lord, not a direct ability. He’s not called Han “Shoots First” Solo.
The intent is in the description is says bonus turn. not the first turn, not an immediate turn. the thrawn and GMY abilities specifically state the way they wanted them to work and those and Hans uniques all operate as they are described. the point about the title vs description is that the title is not the description.
Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.
The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.
But arguing about the intent of Hans zeta imo is bad form to suggest it's simply just 100% tm because it isn't.
it is, in both description and action. if they wanted him to shoot first, why not change the description like they did for yoda?......maybe they will but until then it is functioning as described using the in game mechanics we see all the time.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
The description reads:
Han takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. During this turn Han ignores Taunts and can only use his Basic ability, but it will Stun the target for one turn and can't be Resisted.
Noting about TM
The only way to take a turn is to have 100% TM. That is why to get his "bonus turn", he starts with 100% TM.
You’re wrong in saying this, otherwise certain events that force the opposing team to get two FULL rounds of turns right off the bat would still be subject to this RNG roll and they’re not.
They actually are. they event is programmed to lock the player behind, but in those events the TM loaded opponents are following the RNG roll just like always. this is specific to event opponents and has nothing to do with hans unique. but just like always he is given his bonus turn because he is sitting there with 100% TM.
The description reads:
Han takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. During this turn Han ignores Taunts and can only use his Basic ability, but it will Stun the target for one turn and can't be Resisted.
Noting about TM
The only way to take a turn is to have 100% TM. That is why to get his "bonus turn", he starts with 100% TM.
We’re all aware of what the description says. Beating it into our heads isn’t going to change the INTENT of “shoots first.”
Also, “bonus turn at the start” implies he goes first no matter what, much like Thrawn’s swap and GMY’s bonus turn makes the toon take an immediate turn. Specifically how they switched Thrawn’a swap to do this, it proves that 100% turn meter is not the only way to take a turn, as you say.
You can quote description all day, but it doesn’t change the fact Shoots First should shoot first, and you know it. Your “lord of hunger” comparison is moot, as Lord of Hunger is a metaphorical title for a Sith Lord, not a direct ability. He’s not called Han “Shoots First” Solo.
The intent is in the description is says bonus turn. not the first turn, not an immediate turn. the thrawn and GMY abilities specifically state the way they wanted them to work and those and Hans uniques all operate as they are described. the point about the title vs description is that the title is not the description.
Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.
The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.
But arguing about the intent of Hans zeta imo is bad form to suggest it's simply just 100% tm because it isn't.
it is, in both description and action. if they wanted him to shoot first, why not change the description like they did for yoda?......maybe they will but until then it is functioning as described using the in game mechanics we see all the time.
My point exactly. They’re programmed to lock the player behind, and they do. How many complaints have you read on here saying how it’s not fair that their toons with higher speed do not go first for 2 full rounds? That’s not an RNG roll, that’s programming the toons to go first.
“At the start” is pretty clear about when the turn is supposed to take place. You can argue semantics forever, but “at the start” was definitely intended to mean Shoots First.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
First off if you going to quote the ability you should use the complete quote for transparency. You mention the bonus turn that's good but u conveniently leave out the part about when that bonus turn occurs (When? at the start of the encounter).
Actually I checking in game and the ability does not state anything about TM at all. It simply reads, "Han takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter..."
The when this bonus turn is taken is very important from a player perspective. It's expressly stated a very specific time, when? at the START of the encounter. This supports your previous comment on page 1
Unless stated otherwise, all toons with 100% TM are subject to the coin flip.
Even if we concede that Han's Shoot First ability that describes an action at the start of the encounter is WAI as is does that pass the logic test? Have we thought this through? Its currently possible that the enemy targets and kills Han before Han taken his bonus turn at the START of the encounter.
So … IT IS POSSIBLE FOR HAN TO DIE BEFORE THE START OF THE ENCOUNTER? REALLY?
^^^^ that's WAI and working as described?
I'm feeling out of touch with reality more and more recently - I just don't understand how he can die before the encounter starts. His ability literally says "Han takes bonus turn at the start of the encounter."but maybe its just me not understanding what those words really mean. US education isn't the best and I fear they taught me an incorrect definition of the timing of the phrase at the start.
Let me make this simple: it is possible that multiple toons are given a bonus turn at the start of the encounter. The most obvious example is if both sides have have a Han, but certain event toons are given the same mechanic (this is a bit lame I agree). If multiple toons have bonus turns they have to take them in some order (coinflip in this game) because this is a turn based game. In particular, it is possible that a toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" is killed by another toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" before he gets that to take that bonus turn.
Let me make this simple: it is possible that multiple toons are given a bonus turn at the start of the encounter. The most obvious example is if both sides have have a Han, but certain event toons are given the same mechanic (this is a bit lame I agree). If multiple toons have bonus turns they have to take them in some order (coinflip in this game) because this is a turn based game. In particular, it is possible that a toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" is killed by another toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" before he gets that to take that bonus turn.
Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.
The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.
He gets the bonus turn at the beginning of the match. A turn in this game is denoted by 100% TM. The name is a title and not a description of how the ability will work, that's what the description is for.
As always when multiple toons have 100% TM, there is no guarantee who will go first, although I suspect when event toons have this coded they will go before our side, but still in an order determined by RNG.
The wording always was and still is ambiguous. The text says Han 'takes a bonus turn'. This wording implies that he actually also makes his move. The actual implementation may be WAI (and it works well - no protests there), but it does not comply with the wording in the ability description and it never did.
In the case of Zaul lead, the wording is unambiguous. The text states that certain characters 'gain 20% Turn Meter' at the start of each encounter. That's a precise wording.
Similarly, the wording of the description of GMY's Masterstroke is, that he 'gains an immediate bonus turn'. Does this mean that he immediately gains 100% turn meter? What would be the difference of several other characters that gain 100% turn meter (B2, JKA, Biggs, etc.)? If yes, why isn't it simply worded like those characters - that GMY gains 100% TM? Or does it mean that GMY immediately makes his move with no other characters able to move before that immediate bonus turn? In that case: why so similar wordings for two so different behaviours (Han 'takes a bonus turn', GMY 'gains an immediate turn')? And Thrawn's grand Admirel's Command still only states, that it's a Turn Meter swap. It doesn't state, that the target immediately takes a turn.
Why all those confusing wordings? Why not be consistent and use the same wording for the same behaviour and use a clearly distinct wording for different behaviour?
CG really should change the text of Han's 'Shoot first' ability to make it clear, that he gains 100% Turn Meter instead of the ambiguous 'takes a bonus turn'.
Yes, Kyno, I've read your comments about this in previous discussions as well. 'Taking a turn' is defined by CG as receiving 100% turn meter. I know. However, it doesn't change the fact, that the ability description doesn't state that clearly. Changing the text would take a couple of minutes, with a few more minutes added for planning, testing and documentation - but it would save a lot of confusion for players.
Instead of repeating your comments, that Han is intended to simply receive 100% TM (which most players already know) why not move to the next step in the discussion and comment on the ambiguous wording of the ability description and the general inconsistency in ability descriptions? That would be helpfull for all of us.
Bottom line, han should shoot first unless he is going against another han, period, full stop.
Either this or the ability description should be worded differently to make it clear, that Han receives 100% Turn Meter. Since the behaviour and implementation is as intended by CG, it's the wording that should be changed - not the behaviour.
Let me make this simple: it is possible that multiple toons are given a bonus turn at the start of the encounter. The most obvious example is if both sides have have a Han, but certain event toons are given the same mechanic (this is a bit lame I agree). If multiple toons have bonus turns they have to take them in some order (coinflip in this game) because this is a turn based game. In particular, it is possible that a toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" is killed by another toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" before he gets that to take that bonus turn.
True. But how could it be made easier to grasp? My suggestion:
Since this is different to the gain-100%-TM-mechanics maybe it would help to introduce a blue 'Shoots First' effect indicator just like 'Prepared' or 'Contract'. That way it's clear if CG decides to mess with it during certain events. Players would be accustomed to only see their (and the opponent's) Raid Han starting with the blue indicator in normal gameplay. If players enter an event and all event toons start popping up 'Shoots first' flags immidiately, it would be clear that your Raid Han's first shot will be subject to heavy RNG. It would even be possible to show how many additional turns at the start have been programmed into event toons. The 'Shoots first' flag just needed to show the numbers like stackable buffs/debuffs.
That way, CG wouldn't need to change anything specific on the Raid Han character or the event toons yet it would be crystal clear what's going on.
Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.
The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.
He gets the bonus turn at the beginning of the match. A turn in this game is denoted by 100% TM. The name is a title and not a description of how the ability will work, that's what the description is for.
As always when multiple toons have 100% TM, there is no guarantee who will go first, although I suspect when event toons have this coded they will go before our side, but still in an order determined by RNG.
The wording always was and still is ambiguous. The text says Han 'takes a bonus turn'. This wording implies that he actually also makes his move. The actual implementation may be WAI (and it works well - no protests there), but it does not comply with the wording in the ability description and it never did.
In the case of Zaul lead, the wording is unambiguous. The text states that certain characters 'gain 20% Turn Meter' at the start of each encounter. That's a precise wording.
Similarly, the wording of the description of GMY's Masterstroke is, that he 'gains an immediate bonus turn'. Does this mean that he immediately gains 100% turn meter? What would be the difference of several other characters that gain 100% turn meter (B2, JKA, Biggs, etc.)? If yes, why isn't it simply worded like those characters - that GMY gains 100% TM? Or does it mean that GMY immediately makes his move with no other characters able to move before that immediate bonus turn? In that case: why so similar wordings for two so different behaviours (Han 'takes a bonus turn', GMY 'gains an immediate turn')? And Thrawn's grand Admirel's Command still only states, that it's a Turn Meter swap. It doesn't state, that the target immediately takes a turn.
Why all those confusing wordings? Why not be consistent and use the same wording for the same behaviour and use a clearly distinct wording for different behaviour?
CG really should change the text of Han's 'Shoot first' ability to make it clear, that he gains 100% Turn Meter instead of the ambiguous 'takes a bonus turn'.
Yes, Kyno, I've read your comments about this in previous discussions as well. 'Taking a turn' is defined by CG as receiving 100% turn meter. I know. However, it doesn't change the fact, that the ability description doesn't state that clearly. Changing the text would take a couple of minutes, with a few more minutes added for planning, testing and documentation - but it would save a lot of confusion for players.
Instead of repeating your comments, that Han is intended to simply receive 100% TM (which most players already know) why not move to the next step in the discussion and comment on the ambiguous wording of the ability description and the general inconsistency in ability descriptions? That would be helpfull for all of us.
Because if they intended for him to take the first action they could have worded it that way.
Thrawns description did not match the action that would happen. It was his turn and he is stated to seal that turn to another toon. They changed it to match the wording.
GMY they added specific wording to make it be described and function the way its described.
Both of these show the intent through the description.
If Han was meant to take the first action, it would have been worded that way, we can describe the intent all we want, but that is just how we would want it and not how it seems to be intended through the description.
They have always had wording to describe action vs turn, it's nothing new and has been used before. If he was "going first" due to the statment of "at the start of the encounter" we wouldn't need him to ignore taunts that were applied "at the start of the encounter" because he would be going first, but that's not how the game works. A turn is 100% TM, in every sense of the game and in every scenario. A bonus turn would be a turn not gained through natural TM gain. Unfortunately using the in game mechanics we have, there is no guarantee that goes first and there is no description to say he should. Would we like it changed, sure but it doesnt change those facts.
He gets a bonus turn at the start of the encounter, not Before it. So every other character that has 100% TM at the start of the encounter is in the same situation and every other effect that happens at the start of the encounter also takes place. It matches the description exactly.
And as for people wanting to change the ability to guarantee only Hans going first in all situations, it's just unnecessary (and it's not like Han needs a buff really, he's already one of the most versatile characters and viable in all areas of the game... GMY was changed because it was part of his rework that actually made him viable, and Thrawn's TM Swap is both a different mechanic and didn't match the description until they fixed it)
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
So CG's official position is that this Han is actually the George Lucas re-edited and updated version whereas, Han Shoots first, except before Greedo, Traya, anyone else as so deemed by the AI? lol
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Yes, but the start is the start..... His kit doesnt say anything about TM or % for shoots first....
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
They have a way to bypass the coin flip though as seen with the change made to thrawn. If they worded it as gains 100% tm at the start of the encounter, it would make it clear that they don't intend him to bypass the coin flip.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Thrawn and Yoda's kits both prove this point incorrect.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Thrawn and Yoda's kits both prove this point incorrect.
Those kits have specific wording to do as such. Hans kit does not.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
They have a way to bypass the coin flip though as seen with the change made to thrawn. If they worded it as gains 100% tm at the start of the encounter, it would make it clear that they don't intend him to bypass the coin flip.
How else do you take a turn in this game?
If someone said, my toon takes his turn then another one goes, would you think of any other way that could happen other than 100% TM.
They do have things to bypass that, and if they worded that he should go first or take the first action or anything other than just taking a bonus turn, I would agree. But a bonus is just a free turn, at the start of an encounter. Other things happen at the start of an encounter, including full TM of other toons. The only way multiple toons trying to take their turn is resolved is through a coin flip.
They could word it differently if they wanted him to not be caught in that mechanism, or code it to operate however they intend, we have seen this. Maybe they will change it maybe they will not, but it will most likely be accompanied by a description change to make it clear the intention that he is not subject to the coin flip because right now he is WAD.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
The biggest issue I've seen isn't that he doesn't go first, it's that when he does get his "bonus" turn, he doesn't always get the bonuses. His first turn is supposed to be locked to basic only that ignores taunts, is unavoidable, and applies an irresistible stun. I have seen several clips and images that show his first turn with all abilities available.
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
They have a way to bypass the coin flip though as seen with the change made to thrawn. If they worded it as gains 100% tm at the start of the encounter, it would make it clear that they don't intend him to bypass the coin flip.
How else do you take a turn in this game?
If someone said, my toon takes his turn then another one goes, would you think of any other way that could happen other than 100% TM.
They do have things to bypass that, and if they worded that he should go first or take the first action or anything other than just taking a bonus turn, I would agree. But a bonus is just a free turn, at the start of an encounter. Other things happen at the start of an encounter, including full TM of other toons. The only way multiple toons trying to take their turn is resolved is through a coin flip.
They could word it differently if they wanted him to not be caught in that mechanism, or code it to operate however they intend, we have seen this. Maybe they will change it maybe they will not, but it will most likely be accompanied by a description change to make it clear the intention that he is not subject to the coin flip because right now he is WAD.
The current description is not really clear on whether he should bypass the coin flip or not. It can be read both ways as shown here in the arguements. That's why they need to clarify one way or another. When his zeta came out, he was guaranteed to go first. So even if it is working as described, it is not working as intended. Unless they intended to nerf a zeta after people already bought it and just not tell anyone why. But I doubt that since han going first doesn't break the game and that is typically the times they try to nerf teams (even if it only breaks the game in their minds cough cough ns).
But even then they announce nerfs ahead of time. So likely not working as intended even if you can read the description and justify how it is working.
Replies
Now I know what Nihilus is saying!
"Give me your French Fries."
I agree. Similar to how thrawn's tm swap is meant to give the ally the next turn, not put them in the pile to 'maybe' get the next turn.
They fixed the thrawn one. Hopefully they fix this one too.
Though if I recall you were on the other side of that debate.
They actually are. they event is programmed to lock the player behind, but in those events the TM loaded opponents are following the RNG roll just like always. this is specific to event opponents and has nothing to do with hans unique. but just like always he is given his bonus turn because he is sitting there with 100% TM.
The intent is in the description is says bonus turn. not the first turn, not an immediate turn. the thrawn and GMY abilities specifically state the way they wanted them to work and those and Hans uniques all operate as they are described. the point about the title vs description is that the title is not the description.
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.
100% agree.
it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.
Agreed , that would be helpful.
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger.
First off if you going to quote the ability you should use the complete quote for transparency. You mention the bonus turn that's good but u conveniently leave out the part about when that bonus turn occurs (When? at the start of the encounter).
Actually I checking in game and the ability does not state anything about TM at all. It simply reads,
"Han takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter..."
The when this bonus turn is taken is very important from a player perspective. It's expressly stated a very specific time, when? at the START of the encounter. This supports your previous comment on page 1
Even if we concede that Han's Shoot First ability that describes an action at the start of the encounter is WAI as is does that pass the logic test? Have we thought this through? Its currently possible that the enemy targets and kills Han before Han taken his bonus turn at the START of the encounter.
So … IT IS POSSIBLE FOR HAN TO DIE BEFORE THE START OF THE ENCOUNTER? REALLY?
^^^^ that's WAI and working as described?
I'm feeling out of touch with reality more and more recently - I just don't understand how he can die before the encounter starts. His ability literally says "Han takes bonus turn at the start of the encounter."but maybe its just me not understanding what those words really mean. US education isn't the best and I fear they taught me an incorrect definition of the timing of the phrase at the start.
Is this really so hard for people to understand?
The wording always was and still is ambiguous. The text says Han 'takes a bonus turn'. This wording implies that he actually also makes his move. The actual implementation may be WAI (and it works well - no protests there), but it does not comply with the wording in the ability description and it never did.
In the case of Zaul lead, the wording is unambiguous. The text states that certain characters 'gain 20% Turn Meter' at the start of each encounter. That's a precise wording.
Similarly, the wording of the description of GMY's Masterstroke is, that he 'gains an immediate bonus turn'. Does this mean that he immediately gains 100% turn meter? What would be the difference of several other characters that gain 100% turn meter (B2, JKA, Biggs, etc.)? If yes, why isn't it simply worded like those characters - that GMY gains 100% TM? Or does it mean that GMY immediately makes his move with no other characters able to move before that immediate bonus turn? In that case: why so similar wordings for two so different behaviours (Han 'takes a bonus turn', GMY 'gains an immediate turn')? And Thrawn's grand Admirel's Command still only states, that it's a Turn Meter swap. It doesn't state, that the target immediately takes a turn.
Why all those confusing wordings? Why not be consistent and use the same wording for the same behaviour and use a clearly distinct wording for different behaviour?
CG really should change the text of Han's 'Shoot first' ability to make it clear, that he gains 100% Turn Meter instead of the ambiguous 'takes a bonus turn'.
Yes, Kyno, I've read your comments about this in previous discussions as well. 'Taking a turn' is defined by CG as receiving 100% turn meter. I know. However, it doesn't change the fact, that the ability description doesn't state that clearly. Changing the text would take a couple of minutes, with a few more minutes added for planning, testing and documentation - but it would save a lot of confusion for players.
Instead of repeating your comments, that Han is intended to simply receive 100% TM (which most players already know) why not move to the next step in the discussion and comment on the ambiguous wording of the ability description and the general inconsistency in ability descriptions? That would be helpfull for all of us.
Either this or the ability description should be worded differently to make it clear, that Han receives 100% Turn Meter. Since the behaviour and implementation is as intended by CG, it's the wording that should be changed - not the behaviour.
Since this is different to the gain-100%-TM-mechanics maybe it would help to introduce a blue 'Shoots First' effect indicator just like 'Prepared' or 'Contract'. That way it's clear if CG decides to mess with it during certain events. Players would be accustomed to only see their (and the opponent's) Raid Han starting with the blue indicator in normal gameplay. If players enter an event and all event toons start popping up 'Shoots first' flags immidiately, it would be clear that your Raid Han's first shot will be subject to heavy RNG. It would even be possible to show how many additional turns at the start have been programmed into event toons. The 'Shoots first' flag just needed to show the numbers like stackable buffs/debuffs.
That way, CG wouldn't need to change anything specific on the Raid Han character or the event toons yet it would be crystal clear what's going on.
Because if they intended for him to take the first action they could have worded it that way.
Thrawns description did not match the action that would happen. It was his turn and he is stated to seal that turn to another toon. They changed it to match the wording.
GMY they added specific wording to make it be described and function the way its described.
Both of these show the intent through the description.
If Han was meant to take the first action, it would have been worded that way, we can describe the intent all we want, but that is just how we would want it and not how it seems to be intended through the description.
They have always had wording to describe action vs turn, it's nothing new and has been used before. If he was "going first" due to the statment of "at the start of the encounter" we wouldn't need him to ignore taunts that were applied "at the start of the encounter" because he would be going first, but that's not how the game works. A turn is 100% TM, in every sense of the game and in every scenario. A bonus turn would be a turn not gained through natural TM gain. Unfortunately using the in game mechanics we have, there is no guarantee that goes first and there is no description to say he should. Would we like it changed, sure but it doesnt change those facts.
And as for people wanting to change the ability to guarantee only Hans going first in all situations, it's just unnecessary (and it's not like Han needs a buff really, he's already one of the most versatile characters and viable in all areas of the game... GMY was changed because it was part of his rework that actually made him viable, and Thrawn's TM Swap is both a different mechanic and didn't match the description until they fixed it)
He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,
Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger
Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.
Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.
I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.
Agreed, but there is no other way in game to take a turn, so bonus turn and 100% are 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Yes, but the start is the start..... His kit doesnt say anything about TM or % for shoots first....
They have a way to bypass the coin flip though as seen with the change made to thrawn. If they worded it as gains 100% tm at the start of the encounter, it would make it clear that they don't intend him to bypass the coin flip.
Thrawn and Yoda's kits both prove this point incorrect.
Discord: Iona Starbound#5299
Those kits have specific wording to do as such. Hans kit does not.
How else do you take a turn in this game?
If someone said, my toon takes his turn then another one goes, would you think of any other way that could happen other than 100% TM.
They do have things to bypass that, and if they worded that he should go first or take the first action or anything other than just taking a bonus turn, I would agree. But a bonus is just a free turn, at the start of an encounter. Other things happen at the start of an encounter, including full TM of other toons. The only way multiple toons trying to take their turn is resolved is through a coin flip.
They could word it differently if they wanted him to not be caught in that mechanism, or code it to operate however they intend, we have seen this. Maybe they will change it maybe they will not, but it will most likely be accompanied by a description change to make it clear the intention that he is not subject to the coin flip because right now he is WAD.
The biggest issue I've seen isn't that he doesn't go first, it's that when he does get his "bonus" turn, he doesn't always get the bonuses. His first turn is supposed to be locked to basic only that ignores taunts, is unavoidable, and applies an irresistible stun. I have seen several clips and images that show his first turn with all abilities available.
The current description is not really clear on whether he should bypass the coin flip or not. It can be read both ways as shown here in the arguements. That's why they need to clarify one way or another. When his zeta came out, he was guaranteed to go first. So even if it is working as described, it is not working as intended. Unless they intended to nerf a zeta after people already bought it and just not tell anyone why. But I doubt that since han going first doesn't break the game and that is typically the times they try to nerf teams (even if it only breaks the game in their minds cough cough ns).
But even then they announce nerfs ahead of time. So likely not working as intended even if you can read the description and justify how it is working.