GP Matchmaking & “Fluff”

Replies

  • Kyno
    21575 posts Moderator
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ruin3rr wrote: »
    Posted a suggestion before that would've prevented these poorly matched GA fights. Kyno

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/189218/tw-grand-arena-gp#latest

    I dont make the systems.

    As I have stated, i am not totally opposed to GP matching and letting players choices and play style play through in how they will do in this game mode.

    I am also under the impression that GP is NOT the only factor involved, but they dont give out specific details.

    I actually think that at least for now total GP is the only thing being considered. When I checked my last opponent right after we were paired, our GPs differed by 1 point. It seems like what they’re doing is just counting down two-by-two from the top of the GP bracket. That’s my guess.

    I can tell you that, they are giving the impression that they are NOT only looking just GP. So it is not as simple as you are saying, but it also doesnt sound like it is as complex as the TW one either. Again its hard since they will not give details in any way.

    You may be right, but if so, it’s a HUGE coincidence that my last opponent and I differed by only one point of total GP. I wish I had taken screenshots.

    Why would it be a huge coincidence that one of the factors they use for matching was close? They do use it as a factor just not the only one. It could also be the primary one, no one knows. But its not the only one. That is all I'm saying.

    Can you have one quote that even implies something it may not be only based on GP please? Both the announcement and Crumb's Q/A implies none.

    It was implied to us, we have been asking for more information and they are working on it. The impression we got from the information gathered is that it is not the sole matching characteristics.
  • I’m guessing this thread is still mostly people who just fluffed up their rosters with trash and are now mad because they are gonna get whooped in grand arena? K just checking.
  • Rebel_yell
    928 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Liath wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »

    This isn't completely accurate. Back when Territory Bore was announced, many of us took all of our trash toons (of which there are many) and leveled them to 85, geared them to 8, and slapped on mods in order to help increase GP for the game mode and help out our guilds.

    Did this act impede our ability to construct a "competitive" roster? I'd argue no, not really. Credits at the top end of the game are plentiful, so the amount spent leveling trash to 85 was not preventing us from from leveling a useful toon to 85. Likewise, gear needed to get toons to level 8 is readily available as side junk from bronziums and more developed gear farms. And of course, we put our cruddy extra mods on these toons. Would we have 1-2 more g12 toons if we had not done these actions? Probably. Would we have 20? No way.

    Yet, what this selfless team oriented action did was artificially inflate our GP and penalize us in both TW and now GA due to poor matchmaking that looks more or less solely at GP.

    Also, keep in mind that TB came before either of these two new modes, so the actions we took that inflated GP occurred BEFORE we could have know about negative ramifications for doing so. In other words, while you maintain a choice for roster development was involved, I'm stating there was no choice whatsoever.

    What really needs to happen is matchmaking needs to be made based on numbers of toons at various gear levels as opposed to GP.

    I'm Sorry, But this argument is CRAP. Since wayyy before there was TB, TW, yadda yadda, We were told to improve your roster, you have to be selective about what you spend your resources on. So, there are some of us who only gear up toons or factions when we have the resources to do so.

    If you think about it, you actually gain MORE points for TW if you actually finish all rounds (especially during the 6th phase) than you would if you "artificially inflate" your GP by leveling up toons to 85 and gear VIII. So if you worked on factions to do well in TB, then you had a great base to start with once TW started. And now the same for GA.

    So yes, the best thing to do is farm toons to 7* but dont Gear or lvl them up until you are ready to take them up to gear XII. Otherwise, you get these whiny posts.

    So in other words, don't actually play the game until you can absolutely max out a single toon?

    Here's the thing about your comment on "managing resources", the resources needed to level, star, mod, and minimally gear up toons do not need to be "managed" because they're in abundance for long-term players.

    Which brings us to the challenge of Grand Arena matchmaking based on GP, long-term players brought a lot of toons to G8, G9, or even G11 for a variety of reasons. Mod Challenges, events, generally fluffing, but the main reason for G11 is that it was the max gear level for toons. Then, with the release of G12 and new toons, you have a roster filled with toons that aren't relevant to PvP, but are decently geared simply because you've played for a long-time. Your GP is high, but your Grand Arena viability is low relative to a comparable GP, new whale. Basically this game design alienates long-term players relative to brand new whales.

    And this isn't a free game. People have invested time, money, or both into this game with the expectation that you wouldn't be penalized for allocating resources.

    I'm not saying I'm entitled to win because I've played for a long time. I simply want to walk into a game mode where the outcome isn't guaranteed one way or the other. I don't have fun annihilating my opponent and I don't have fun being annihilated. So I have provided constructive feedback on ways to improve matchmaking.

    Absolutely false..... Have you farmed the useless vets for rjt yet?..... I guarantee you will be woefully short of 20 a piece purple gear to get g8.... Especially if you are building up your fluff garbage toons.....

    Folks wanking about "helping their guild" with their crappy inflated lineups should take a step back.....

    How well do you do in tb combat missions?

    How much do you contribute to raids?

    Is your inflated gp hurting your guild in TW?

    Dude. I’ve already provided you my roster for review. Start participating like an adult or go away.

    Here it is. Again. Don’t lose it. https://swgoh.gg/p/959311831/

    I'm not going to keep your roster on speed dial, but thanks... I was simply pointing out that not all of the gear to get to G8 is worthless or "in abundance" as you said..... Do try and keep up....

    Trolls gonna troll.

    Bottom line. Your argument has been disproved over and over and over again. Gear required to get from G7 -> G8 does not overlap with the gear needed to get from G11 -> G12. And in the rare instances that it does, guess what, I leave a toon at G7. The gear crunch at G11 -> G12 are stun guns/cuffs, bacta gel, callers, implants, and other yellow gear. Not sure what toons you're gearing with this stuff to move from G7 to G8. Guess you just have magic toons no one else has seen.

    be blessed.

    Lol.... Nobody is trolling here.. Does the gear ever overlap or not? Can you really tell me you have tons of extra purple holo lenses, lower level droid callers etc? You literally get your toons from g7 to g8 without farming anything?

    No need to be salty dude.... It's just a game....

    I literally did exactly that. If I don't have a fat stock of something, I don't use it without a purpose. This gave me 41 g8s and rest of everything g7. I did zero amount of extra farming/resource reallocation while creating the fluff.

    There is something i don’t understand. I keep seeing people say things like « i’m a day 1 veteran player who upgraded useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from my main teams ». Some other people say it’s not really possible but they insist, they’ve been playing for so long and have so many ressources they can do it. Supposedly the matchmaking punishes those veteran players (some said, who also spent money) by matching them with stronger players with leaner rosters.

    My question is : how is this possible ? Who are those « stronger players » ? How can they have zero fluff but the same gp as you then ?
    The only ways those players exist, since they’ve not been playing months or years longer obviously, are
    - They paid for a competitive advantage (you want to take it from them?)
    - They’ve been much more active and efficient than you all along (don’t they deserve their edge then ?)

    Same argument can be made for toons who were « mandatory » at a time but not anymore (teebo, jawas, stuff). If that’s true, almost every long term player will have them, they make no difference in the match making.
    I have a hard time understanding how all those things said in this thread can be true at the same time.

    Not sure anyone here has said they're a day 1 veteran player, but I'll ignore the hyperbole because you bring up good questions. I'll try to explain as best I can.

    Let's look first at how GP is calculated: For each activated toon it measures, Stars, Level, GearTier, Abilities, and Mods.

    By themselves, Stars and Level have zero bearing on the toons performance, it simply unlocks the gear levels and abilities you can equip. Even 6* mods are gated behind G12, which itself is gated behind 7*. Credits are used to star and level characters, and long-term players have these in abundance. So, up until GA there was absolutely no resource management considerations that prevented you from starring and leveling those toons. In fact, it there was an incentive to do so because you could deploy more GP in TB. GREAT!

    Now comes an unannounced game mode (relative to the time they have been playing) that actually penalizes a player for having greater breadth in 7*, level 85 toons. Again, you may be asking "why make them level 85 if you don't plan to gear them?" and it's because there is no resource management consideration. I personally have 20 million in credits. There's no reason not to... until now.

    With GA matchmaking on GP, it's in the players best interest to not make incremental progress at all, but to simply research all the gear that is needed for a specific toon, farm its shards and then gear them and star them as rapidly as possible so as not to negatively impact competitiveness in GA. That doesn't seem in the spirit of a game that was designed for incremental progress and most definitely hurts those that aren't researching the game constantly on the forums or reddit.

    Now let's talk about 1 more key change to the game that impacts players, G12. In the past, G10 and G11 didn't have a huge performance gap. You were better off going to G11, but you might be able to pick off a couple of toons with a G10 squad. G12 changed this. If you are facing G12 toons with G11 toons, you're smoked. You're not knocking down any of their toons. There's no attrition any more. So when a matchmaking pairs off a player with 60 G12 toons against someone that has 30, even though they have similar GP they are grossly mismatched. That's not a competitive advantage... that's not even a competition.

    To your point about efficiency, this is false. There is very little overlap in gear to bring someone up to G7 or G8 versus G11 -> G12 gear. Once you are trying to move from G11 to G12, it's a completely different type of grind. Yes you need carbs and guns, but you also need a bunch of stuff that is unique to G11. Yellow gear and IV bacta gel, and VI callers and a bunch of stuff that doesn't come into the equation at lower gears. So why would you design a format that tells players to not put on any gear other toons that you can't immediately bring to G12? it defeats the whole concept of incremental progress and grinding.

    So the ask is, make matchmaking more equitable taking into account the tremendous performance gap between G12 and G11. My suggestion is to simply take out level, stars, and mods from the matchmaking equation, leaving just gear and abilities.

    Now you may be asking, "well, where's the advantage to the whale?" And it's in mods. A player that is spending on gear is farming the slicing components needed to bring mods to 6*. That still gives them a pretty large competitive advantage over lower and non-spenders.

    TL:DR - refining the matching GP to only account for weighted average gear level and abilities still provides an advantage to big spenders. So does removing mods from the equation. The goal isn't to make someone who pays a lot and someone who pays a little to have 1:1 competitive ratio. It's simply to bring the ratio to a level where players feel they can have fun playing. Go back and look at the first picture posted. 60 G12 v 21 G12. That's a nearly 300% difference in toons that are actually viable. That's not fun gameplay.

    But that won’t actually result in even matchups. Quality of mods is one of the biggest areas of discrepancy between accounts.

    I’m not asking for even matchups. I’m asking for more stable matchups. Mod disparity is a real thing but there are two reasons I think they should be excluded.

    1) users can manipulate GP by removing them
    2) mods are a real resource decision at all levels of the game. It’s gotten better since they released mod specific energy, but it’s still a choice as to whether or not someone spends credits on leveling up mods versus toons (at early stage) or gearing up via guild currency versus focusing on 6* slicing (at late stage).

    In each scenario focuing on mods development I see a player being PvP focused to which I think an advantage would be warranted.

    I’d rather face a player where we had equal G12 toons and be bested because they invested in 6* mods. To me, that’s a gameplay decision where I knew I’d be disadvantaged by focusing on gearing lower toons. Its a personal opinion, but I think people would be happier with that than facing 3:1 G12 matchups.

    Plus, I can make up ground on mods. I can’t make up 3/1 mismatch on G12. So if the game wants to incentivize spend, having obtainable advancement is to their benefit.

    Edit - for what it’s worth, I use guild currency to invest in gear, not 6* mod slicing materials. So I’m advocating for something that would put me at a disadvantage.
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Kyno even you should know this algorithm is horrible because Ships over-inflate GP by a milestone. Someone farming Hounds Tooth will end up facing someone who didn't focus hard on ships. Character GP is more important since that is where the win/loss of Grand Arena will be judging from the points distribution.

    Matchmaking should've accounted for multiple factors than just base overall GP

    EDIT: you have an olympic runner and a swimmer competing for a 100m race in this case. Just because you have two athletes that are 1st in their field competing doesn't mean its fair

    Which clearly explains why I with my garbage ships have been trashing my opponents in Grand arena
  • Lio wrote: »
    To all those fighting on this thread: BE BEST

    To all those fighting on this thread: BE MATURE
    and no, I will not be coming by to see how you responded to this, not worth my time or yours
  • Discrepancy of mods will happen if you are F2P. The developers aren’t gonna make it easier for free to play players to play a game that pay to play players make happen.

    So yeah, if you just want an exact team of GP, G12, mods, and Zetas in a formula that breaks even across the board, and you don’t have any equity in the game, not really sure what you are complaining about.

    Let’s take two players. Let’s call them Bob and Bill.

    Bob and Bill both started playing the game around the same time it started. Bob continues to spend money on the game in access of 200-300 a month to develop his roster. His money goes to pay game developers, the staff, CG and helps the company grow and expand. Bob works a lot and hardly has times to hit the forum but loves to play the game and usually wins most of his TW’s, GA, and has a very developed roster and mods.

    Meanwhile Bill, works just like Bob but doesn’t invest or put little to no money into the game. Bill is upset that on every release of anything he can’t get right away, and not is upset the game isn’t based around his free to play status. He is in an uproar wanting CG to change this or that, while hardly even being a paying customer.

    Over time Bill becomes a collector in the game and rapidly is gaining GP as he wants to help his guild out with TB. He is considered a top dawg there as he helps his guild. Bob GP is barely moving but he continues to spend his energy and time on mods to make his roster better. One day Bob and Bill hey matched up in GA.

    Bill is livid about this situation as he was a collector and now as to be a competitor. He realizes Bob has double the speed mods. He now wants to change a paying customers advantage because he realizes he is outgunned. Who is CG gonna listen to?
  • Discrepancy of mods will happen if you are F2P. The developers aren’t gonna make it easier for free to play players to play a game that pay to play players make happen.

    So yeah, if you just want an exact team of GP, G12, mods, and Zetas in a formula that breaks even across the board, and you don’t have any equity in the game, not really sure what you are complaining about.

    Let’s take two players. Let’s call them Bob and Bill.

    Bob and Bill both started playing the game around the same time it started. Bob continues to spend money on the game in access of 200-300 a month to develop his roster. His money goes to pay game developers, the staff, CG and helps the company grow and expand. Bob works a lot and hardly has times to hit the forum but loves to play the game and usually wins most of his TW’s, GA, and has a very developed roster and mods.

    Meanwhile Bill, works just like Bob but doesn’t invest or put little to no money into the game. Bill is upset that on every release of anything he can’t get right away, and not is upset the game isn’t based around his free to play status. He is in an uproar wanting CG to change this or that, while hardly even being a paying customer.

    Over time Bill becomes a collector in the game and rapidly is gaining GP as he wants to help his guild out with TB. He is considered a top dawg there as he helps his guild. Bob GP is barely moving but he continues to spend his energy and time on mods to make his roster better. One day Bob and Bill hey matched up in GA.

    Bill is livid about this situation as he was a collector and now as to be a competitor. He realizes Bob has double the speed mods. He now wants to change a paying customers advantage because he realizes he is outgunned. Who is CG gonna listen to?

    Spenders can also be collectors. But cool story bro.
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Discrepancy of mods will happen if you are F2P. The developers aren’t gonna make it easier for free to play players to play a game that pay to play players make happen.

    So yeah, if you just want an exact team of GP, G12, mods, and Zetas in a formula that breaks even across the board, and you don’t have any equity in the game, not really sure what you are complaining about.

    Let’s take two players. Let’s call them Bob and Bill.

    Bob and Bill both started playing the game around the same time it started. Bob continues to spend money on the game in access of 200-300 a month to develop his roster. His money goes to pay game developers, the staff, CG and helps the company grow and expand. Bob works a lot and hardly has times to hit the forum but loves to play the game and usually wins most of his TW’s, GA, and has a very developed roster and mods.

    Meanwhile Bill, works just like Bob but doesn’t invest or put little to no money into the game. Bill is upset that on every release of anything he can’t get right away, and not is upset the game isn’t based around his free to play status. He is in an uproar wanting CG to change this or that, while hardly even being a paying customer.

    Over time Bill becomes a collector in the game and rapidly is gaining GP as he wants to help his guild out with TB. He is considered a top dawg there as he helps his guild. Bob GP is barely moving but he continues to spend his energy and time on mods to make his roster better. One day Bob and Bill hey matched up in GA.

    Bill is livid about this situation as he was a collector and now as to be a competitor. He realizes Bob has double the speed mods. He now wants to change a paying customers advantage because he realizes he is outgunned. Who is CG gonna listen to?

    Spenders can also be collectors. But cool story bro.

    It was! Thanks man!!!
  • No_Try
    3661 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ruin3rr wrote: »
    Posted a suggestion before that would've prevented these poorly matched GA fights. Kyno

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/189218/tw-grand-arena-gp#latest

    I dont make the systems.

    As I have stated, i am not totally opposed to GP matching and letting players choices and play style play through in how they will do in this game mode.

    I am also under the impression that GP is NOT the only factor involved, but they dont give out specific details.

    I actually think that at least for now total GP is the only thing being considered. When I checked my last opponent right after we were paired, our GPs differed by 1 point. It seems like what they’re doing is just counting down two-by-two from the top of the GP bracket. That’s my guess.

    I can tell you that, they are giving the impression that they are NOT only looking just GP. So it is not as simple as you are saying, but it also doesnt sound like it is as complex as the TW one either. Again its hard since they will not give details in any way.

    You may be right, but if so, it’s a HUGE coincidence that my last opponent and I differed by only one point of total GP. I wish I had taken screenshots.

    Why would it be a huge coincidence that one of the factors they use for matching was close? They do use it as a factor just not the only one. It could also be the primary one, no one knows. But its not the only one. That is all I'm saying.

    Can you have one quote that even implies something it may not be only based on GP please? Both the announcement and Crumb's Q/A implies none.

    It was implied to us, we have been asking for more information and they are working on it. The impression we got from the information gathered is that it is not the sole matching characteristics.

    That's even more crpytic. You mean implied to moderators?
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »

    This isn't completely accurate. Back when Territory Bore was announced, many of us took all of our trash toons (of which there are many) and leveled them to 85, geared them to 8, and slapped on mods in order to help increase GP for the game mode and help out our guilds.

    Did this act impede our ability to construct a "competitive" roster? I'd argue no, not really. Credits at the top end of the game are plentiful, so the amount spent leveling trash to 85 was not preventing us from from leveling a useful toon to 85. Likewise, gear needed to get toons to level 8 is readily available as side junk from bronziums and more developed gear farms. And of course, we put our cruddy extra mods on these toons. Would we have 1-2 more g12 toons if we had not done these actions? Probably. Would we have 20? No way.

    Yet, what this selfless team oriented action did was artificially inflate our GP and penalize us in both TW and now GA due to poor matchmaking that looks more or less solely at GP.

    Also, keep in mind that TB came before either of these two new modes, so the actions we took that inflated GP occurred BEFORE we could have know about negative ramifications for doing so. In other words, while you maintain a choice for roster development was involved, I'm stating there was no choice whatsoever.

    What really needs to happen is matchmaking needs to be made based on numbers of toons at various gear levels as opposed to GP.

    I'm Sorry, But this argument is CRAP. Since wayyy before there was TB, TW, yadda yadda, We were told to improve your roster, you have to be selective about what you spend your resources on. So, there are some of us who only gear up toons or factions when we have the resources to do so.

    If you think about it, you actually gain MORE points for TW if you actually finish all rounds (especially during the 6th phase) than you would if you "artificially inflate" your GP by leveling up toons to 85 and gear VIII. So if you worked on factions to do well in TB, then you had a great base to start with once TW started. And now the same for GA.

    So yes, the best thing to do is farm toons to 7* but dont Gear or lvl them up until you are ready to take them up to gear XII. Otherwise, you get these whiny posts.

    So in other words, don't actually play the game until you can absolutely max out a single toon?

    Here's the thing about your comment on "managing resources", the resources needed to level, star, mod, and minimally gear up toons do not need to be "managed" because they're in abundance for long-term players.

    Which brings us to the challenge of Grand Arena matchmaking based on GP, long-term players brought a lot of toons to G8, G9, or even G11 for a variety of reasons. Mod Challenges, events, generally fluffing, but the main reason for G11 is that it was the max gear level for toons. Then, with the release of G12 and new toons, you have a roster filled with toons that aren't relevant to PvP, but are decently geared simply because you've played for a long-time. Your GP is high, but your Grand Arena viability is low relative to a comparable GP, new whale. Basically this game design alienates long-term players relative to brand new whales.

    And this isn't a free game. People have invested time, money, or both into this game with the expectation that you wouldn't be penalized for allocating resources.

    I'm not saying I'm entitled to win because I've played for a long time. I simply want to walk into a game mode where the outcome isn't guaranteed one way or the other. I don't have fun annihilating my opponent and I don't have fun being annihilated. So I have provided constructive feedback on ways to improve matchmaking.

    Absolutely false..... Have you farmed the useless vets for rjt yet?..... I guarantee you will be woefully short of 20 a piece purple gear to get g8.... Especially if you are building up your fluff garbage toons.....

    Folks wanking about "helping their guild" with their crappy inflated lineups should take a step back.....

    How well do you do in tb combat missions?

    How much do you contribute to raids?

    Is your inflated gp hurting your guild in TW?

    Dude. I’ve already provided you my roster for review. Start participating like an adult or go away.

    Here it is. Again. Don’t lose it. https://swgoh.gg/p/959311831/

    I'm not going to keep your roster on speed dial, but thanks... I was simply pointing out that not all of the gear to get to G8 is worthless or "in abundance" as you said..... Do try and keep up....

    Trolls gonna troll.

    Bottom line. Your argument has been disproved over and over and over again. Gear required to get from G7 -> G8 does not overlap with the gear needed to get from G11 -> G12. And in the rare instances that it does, guess what, I leave a toon at G7. The gear crunch at G11 -> G12 are stun guns/cuffs, bacta gel, callers, implants, and other yellow gear. Not sure what toons you're gearing with this stuff to move from G7 to G8. Guess you just have magic toons no one else has seen.

    be blessed.

    Lol.... Nobody is trolling here.. Does the gear ever overlap or not? Can you really tell me you have tons of extra purple holo lenses, lower level droid callers etc? You literally get your toons from g7 to g8 without farming anything?

    No need to be salty dude.... It's just a game....

    I literally did exactly that. If I don't have a fat stock of something, I don't use it without a purpose. This gave me 41 g8s and rest of everything g7. I did zero amount of extra farming/resource reallocation while creating the fluff.

    There is something i don’t understand. I keep seeing people say things like « i’m a day 1 veteran player who upgraded useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from my main teams ». Some other people say it’s not really possible but they insist, they’ve been playing for so long and have so many ressources they can do it. Supposedly the matchmaking punishes those veteran players (some said, who also spent money) by matching them with stronger players with leaner rosters.

    My question is : how is this possible ? Who are those « stronger players » ? How can they have zero fluff but the same gp as you then ?
    The only ways those players exist, since they’ve not been playing months or years longer obviously, are
    - They paid for a competitive advantage (you want to take it from them?)
    - They’ve been much more active and efficient than you all along (don’t they deserve their edge then ?)

    Same argument can be made for toons who were « mandatory » at a time but not anymore (teebo, jawas, stuff). If that’s true, almost every long term player will have them, they make no difference in the match making.
    I have a hard time understanding how all those things said in this thread can be true at the same time.

    Not sure anyone here has said they're a day 1 veteran player, but I'll ignore the hyperbole because you bring up good questions. I'll try to explain as best I can.

    Let's look first at how GP is calculated: For each activated toon it measures, Stars, Level, GearTier, Abilities, and Mods.

    By themselves, Stars and Level have zero bearing on the toons performance, it simply unlocks the gear levels and abilities you can equip. Even 6* mods are gated behind G12, which itself is gated behind 7*. Credits are used to star and level characters, and long-term players have these in abundance. So, up until GA there was absolutely no resource management considerations that prevented you from starring and leveling those toons. In fact, it there was an incentive to do so because you could deploy more GP in TB. GREAT!

    Now comes an unannounced game mode (relative to the time they have been playing) that actually penalizes a player for having greater breadth in 7*, level 85 toons. Again, you may be asking "why make them level 85 if you don't plan to gear them?" and it's because there is no resource management consideration. I personally have 20 million in credits. There's no reason not to... until now.

    With GA matchmaking on GP, it's in the players best interest to not make incremental progress at all, but to simply research all the gear that is needed for a specific toon, farm its shards and then gear them and star them as rapidly as possible so as not to negatively impact competitiveness in GA. That doesn't seem in the spirit of a game that was designed for incremental progress and most definitely hurts those that aren't researching the game constantly on the forums or reddit.

    Now let's talk about 1 more key change to the game that impacts players, G12. In the past, G10 and G11 didn't have a huge performance gap. You were better off going to G11, but you might be able to pick off a couple of toons with a G10 squad. G12 changed this. If you are facing G12 toons with G11 toons, you're smoked. You're not knocking down any of their toons. There's no attrition any more. So when a matchmaking pairs off a player with 60 G12 toons against someone that has 30, even though they have similar GP they are grossly mismatched. That's not a competitive advantage... that's not even a competition.

    To your point about efficiency, this is false. There is very little overlap in gear to bring someone up to G7 or G8 versus G11 -> G12 gear. Once you are trying to move from G11 to G12, it's a completely different type of grind. Yes you need carbs and guns, but you also need a bunch of stuff that is unique to G11. Yellow gear and IV bacta gel, and VI callers and a bunch of stuff that doesn't come into the equation at lower gears. So why would you design a format that tells players to not put on any gear other toons that you can't immediately bring to G12? it defeats the whole concept of incremental progress and grinding.

    So the ask is, make matchmaking more equitable taking into account the tremendous performance gap between G12 and G11. My suggestion is to simply take out level, stars, and mods from the matchmaking equation, leaving just gear and abilities.

    Now you may be asking, "well, where's the advantage to the whale?" And it's in mods. A player that is spending on gear is farming the slicing components needed to bring mods to 6*. That still gives them a pretty large competitive advantage over lower and non-spenders.

    TL:DR - refining the matching GP to only account for weighted average gear level and abilities still provides an advantage to big spenders. So does removing mods from the equation. The goal isn't to make someone who pays a lot and someone who pays a little to have 1:1 competitive ratio. It's simply to bring the ratio to a level where players feel they can have fun playing. Go back and look at the first picture posted. 60 G12 v 21 G12. That's a nearly 300% difference in toons that are actually viable. That's not fun gameplay.

    I’m a dec’15 shard player and i spend my credits on mods, not aimlessly leveling my toons to 85. My lvl85 toons generally have uses be it ships, tb, arena, etc. Those that don’t have uses (e.g. CUP and mob enforcer) are completely sidelined. Food for thought yea?
  • Ultra
    3759 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    That's even more crpytic. You mean implied to moderators?
    Instead of implying stuff, they should just outright say "GP is not the only criteria for matchmaking" because from what Crumb said a few days ago it seems to based on just GP, and looking at everyone's matched opponents for the past two exhibition matches, it seems the only thing in common is the total GP of both players.

    I've seen multiple screenshots where the GP was almost the same but gear level, toons unlocked, toons rarity, zetas applied, were vastly different

    I understand the idea of just basing it on Galactic Power. I agree with the mindset that "same GP means you utilized your resources poorly" and I think having a 1:1 zeta match is impossible / or not a good idea (there is a lot of factors for Zeta disparity that I can list and you can't blame the opponent for having more), or certain players cannot face other players (Traya owners vs non-Traya, Revan vs non-Revan, that's a good argument why this shouldn't be a thing) and those topics are for another debate I can go on about. I agree both opponents shouldn't have the same g12 toons because its dependent on what toons you focused on for raids and other stuff that gave you a leg up / how specific or widespread your gear levels are

    I think its better to match players with almost identical character GP and ships GP rather than overall GP. Its a simple solution that should be fair to all and letting players know this algorithm won't allow the players to game aka "cheat" the system
  • T
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »

    This isn't completely accurate. Back when Territory Bore was announced, many of us took all of our trash toons (of which there are many) and leveled them to 85, geared them to 8, and slapped on mods in order to help increase GP for the game mode and help out our guilds.

    Did this act impede our ability to construct a "competitive" roster? I'd argue no, not really. Credits at the top end of the game are plentiful, so the amount spent leveling trash to 85 was not preventing us from from leveling a useful toon to 85. Likewise, gear needed to get toons to level 8 is readily available as side junk from bronziums and more developed gear farms. And of course, we put our cruddy extra mods on these toons. Would we have 1-2 more g12 toons if we had not done these actions? Probably. Would we have 20? No way.

    Yet, what this selfless team oriented action did was artificially inflate our GP and penalize us in both TW and now GA due to poor matchmaking that looks more or less solely at GP.

    Also, keep in mind that TB came before either of these two new modes, so the actions we took that inflated GP occurred BEFORE we could have know about negative ramifications for doing so. In other words, while you maintain a choice for roster development was involved, I'm stating there was no choice whatsoever.

    What really needs to happen is matchmaking needs to be made based on numbers of toons at various gear levels as opposed to GP.

    I'm Sorry, But this argument is CRAP. Since wayyy before there was TB, TW, yadda yadda, We were told to improve your roster, you have to be selective about what you spend your resources on. So, there are some of us who only gear up toons or factions when we have the resources to do so.

    If you think about it, you actually gain MORE points for TW if you actually finish all rounds (especially during the 6th phase) than you would if you "artificially inflate" your GP by leveling up toons to 85 and gear VIII. So if you worked on factions to do well in TB, then you had a great base to start with once TW started. And now the same for GA.

    So yes, the best thing to do is farm toons to 7* but dont Gear or lvl them up until you are ready to take them up to gear XII. Otherwise, you get these whiny posts.

    So in other words, don't actually play the game until you can absolutely max out a single toon?

    Here's the thing about your comment on "managing resources", the resources needed to level, star, mod, and minimally gear up toons do not need to be "managed" because they're in abundance for long-term players.

    Which brings us to the challenge of Grand Arena matchmaking based on GP, long-term players brought a lot of toons to G8, G9, or even G11 for a variety of reasons. Mod Challenges, events, generally fluffing, but the main reason for G11 is that it was the max gear level for toons. Then, with the release of G12 and new toons, you have a roster filled with toons that aren't relevant to PvP, but are decently geared simply because you've played for a long-time. Your GP is high, but your Grand Arena viability is low relative to a comparable GP, new whale. Basically this game design alienates long-term players relative to brand new whales.

    And this isn't a free game. People have invested time, money, or both into this game with the expectation that you wouldn't be penalized for allocating resources.

    I'm not saying I'm entitled to win because I've played for a long time. I simply want to walk into a game mode where the outcome isn't guaranteed one way or the other. I don't have fun annihilating my opponent and I don't have fun being annihilated. So I have provided constructive feedback on ways to improve matchmaking.

    Absolutely false..... Have you farmed the useless vets for rjt yet?..... I guarantee you will be woefully short of 20 a piece purple gear to get g8.... Especially if you are building up your fluff garbage toons.....

    Folks wanking about "helping their guild" with their crappy inflated lineups should take a step back.....

    How well do you do in tb combat missions?

    How much do you contribute to raids?

    Is your inflated gp hurting your guild in TW?

    Dude. I’ve already provided you my roster for review. Start participating like an adult or go away.

    Here it is. Again. Don’t lose it. https://swgoh.gg/p/959311831/

    I'm not going to keep your roster on speed dial, but thanks... I was simply pointing out that not all of the gear to get to G8 is worthless or "in abundance" as you said..... Do try and keep up....

    Trolls gonna troll.

    Bottom line. Your argument has been disproved over and over and over again. Gear required to get from G7 -> G8 does not overlap with the gear needed to get from G11 -> G12. And in the rare instances that it does, guess what, I leave a toon at G7. The gear crunch at G11 -> G12 are stun guns/cuffs, bacta gel, callers, implants, and other yellow gear. Not sure what toons you're gearing with this stuff to move from G7 to G8. Guess you just have magic toons no one else has seen.

    be blessed.

    Lol.... Nobody is trolling here.. Does the gear ever overlap or not? Can you really tell me you have tons of extra purple holo lenses, lower level droid callers etc? You literally get your toons from g7 to g8 without farming anything?

    No need to be salty dude.... It's just a game....

    I literally did exactly that. If I don't have a fat stock of something, I don't use it without a purpose. This gave me 41 g8s and rest of everything g7. I did zero amount of extra farming/resource reallocation while creating the fluff.

    There is something i don’t understand. I keep seeing people say things like « i’m a day 1 veteran player who upgraded useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from my main teams ». Some other people say it’s not really possible but they insist, they’ve been playing for so long and have so many ressources they can do it. Supposedly the matchmaking punishes those veteran players (some said, who also spent money) by matching them with stronger players with leaner rosters.

    My question is : how is this possible ? Who are those « stronger players » ? How can they have zero fluff but the same gp as you then ?
    The only ways those players exist, since they’ve not been playing months or years longer obviously, are
    - They paid for a competitive advantage (you want to take it from them?)
    - They’ve been much more active and efficient than you all along (don’t they deserve their edge then ?)

    Same argument can be made for toons who were « mandatory » at a time but not anymore (teebo, jawas, stuff). If that’s true, almost every long term player will have them, they make no difference in the match making.
    I have a hard time understanding how all those things said in this thread can be true at the same time.

    Not sure anyone here has said they're a day 1 veteran player, but I'll ignore the hyperbole because you bring up good questions. I'll try to explain as best I can.

    Let's look first at how GP is calculated: For each activated toon it measures, Stars, Level, GearTier, Abilities, and Mods.

    By themselves, Stars and Level have zero bearing on the toons performance, it simply unlocks the gear levels and abilities you can equip. Even 6* mods are gated behind G12, which itself is gated behind 7*. Credits are used to star and level characters, and long-term players have these in abundance. So, up until GA there was absolutely no resource management considerations that prevented you from starring and leveling those toons. In fact, it there was an incentive to do so because you could deploy more GP in TB. GREAT!

    Now comes an unannounced game mode (relative to the time they have been playing) that actually penalizes a player for having greater breadth in 7*, level 85 toons. Again, you may be asking "why make them level 85 if you don't plan to gear them?" and it's because there is no resource management consideration. I personally have 20 million in credits. There's no reason not to... until now.

    With GA matchmaking on GP, it's in the players best interest to not make incremental progress at all, but to simply research all the gear that is needed for a specific toon, farm its shards and then gear them and star them as rapidly as possible so as not to negatively impact competitiveness in GA. That doesn't seem in the spirit of a game that was designed for incremental progress and most definitely hurts those that aren't researching the game constantly on the forums or reddit.

    Now let's talk about 1 more key change to the game that impacts players, G12. In the past, G10 and G11 didn't have a huge performance gap. You were better off going to G11, but you might be able to pick off a couple of toons with a G10 squad. G12 changed this. If you are facing G12 toons with G11 toons, you're smoked. You're not knocking down any of their toons. There's no attrition any more. So when a matchmaking pairs off a player with 60 G12 toons against someone that has 30, even though they have similar GP they are grossly mismatched. That's not a competitive advantage... that's not even a competition.

    To your point about efficiency, this is false. There is very little overlap in gear to bring someone up to G7 or G8 versus G11 -> G12 gear. Once you are trying to move from G11 to G12, it's a completely different type of grind. Yes you need carbs and guns, but you also need a bunch of stuff that is unique to G11. Yellow gear and IV bacta gel, and VI callers and a bunch of stuff that doesn't come into the equation at lower gears. So why would you design a format that tells players to not put on any gear other toons that you can't immediately bring to G12? it defeats the whole concept of incremental progress and grinding.

    So the ask is, make matchmaking more equitable taking into account the tremendous performance gap between G12 and G11. My suggestion is to simply take out level, stars, and mods from the matchmaking equation, leaving just gear and abilities.

    Now you may be asking, "well, where's the advantage to the whale?" And it's in mods. A player that is spending on gear is farming the slicing components needed to bring mods to 6*. That still gives them a pretty large competitive advantage over lower and non-spenders.

    TL:DR - refining the matching GP to only account for weighted average gear level and abilities still provides an advantage to big spenders. So does removing mods from the equation. The goal isn't to make someone who pays a lot and someone who pays a little to have 1:1 competitive ratio. It's simply to bring the ratio to a level where players feel they can have fun playing. Go back and look at the first picture posted. 60 G12 v 21 G12. That's a nearly 300% difference in toons that are actually viable. That's not fun gameplay.

    I’m a dec’15 shard player and i spend my credits on mods, not aimlessly leveling my toons to 85. My lvl85 toons generally have uses be it ships, tb, arena, etc. Those that don’t have uses (e.g. CUP and mob enforcer) are completely sidelined. Food for thought yea?

    The CUP bonus in TW was dope. But again, duped into doing something that hurt my GA matchmaking. Ah well, the one shot kills on Jango were fun. Had excess gear laying around. Had a little fun. Food for thought, yeah?
  • I have a radical idea, just base it off approximate start date of the game and make it completely random. This way people aren't punished for collecting. There may be times where you're at a complete disadvantage, but other times you have the advantage. However, the winner could end up being basically drawn based on the matchup too often is my issue and the mode could lose it's competitiveness.
  • Austin9370 wrote: »
    I have a radical idea, just base it off approximate start date of the game and make it completely random. This way people aren't punished for collecting. There may be times where you're at a complete disadvantage, but other times you have the advantage. However, the winner could end up being basically drawn based on the matchup too often is my issue and the mode could lose it's competitiveness.

    How is that not punishing to collectors? I'll run circels around players who started roughly at the same time i did but didn't focus.
  • Kyno
    21575 posts Moderator
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ruin3rr wrote: »
    Posted a suggestion before that would've prevented these poorly matched GA fights. Kyno

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/189218/tw-grand-arena-gp#latest

    I dont make the systems.

    As I have stated, i am not totally opposed to GP matching and letting players choices and play style play through in how they will do in this game mode.

    I am also under the impression that GP is NOT the only factor involved, but they dont give out specific details.

    I actually think that at least for now total GP is the only thing being considered. When I checked my last opponent right after we were paired, our GPs differed by 1 point. It seems like what they’re doing is just counting down two-by-two from the top of the GP bracket. That’s my guess.

    I can tell you that, they are giving the impression that they are NOT only looking just GP. So it is not as simple as you are saying, but it also doesnt sound like it is as complex as the TW one either. Again its hard since they will not give details in any way.

    You may be right, but if so, it’s a HUGE coincidence that my last opponent and I differed by only one point of total GP. I wish I had taken screenshots.

    Why would it be a huge coincidence that one of the factors they use for matching was close? They do use it as a factor just not the only one. It could also be the primary one, no one knows. But its not the only one. That is all I'm saying.

    Can you have one quote that even implies something it may not be only based on GP please? Both the announcement and Crumb's Q/A implies none.

    It was implied to us, we have been asking for more information and they are working on it. The impression we got from the information gathered is that it is not the sole matching characteristics.

    That's even more crpytic. You mean implied to moderators?

    Yes. I'm not trying to be cryptic, they stated to us there is more to it than that and they are working on what they can explain. I imagine it will be just as vague as the TW explanation.

    I dont have details so I'm trying to give what I have.

  • Laziness could be the keyword? Also, hello Vic :)
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    We have to remember that there are 2 kinds of "fluff".
    1. throwing low level gear, abilities, and leveling up Toons for the sake of inflating GP
    2. Toons that we all once relied on as part of our Primary team(s) until we unlocked better ones. Mine are CW Chewie, Lumi, NS Acolyte, IG-86, etc...I'm sure other people have other examples.

    Here are my crazy ideas, that might solve the problem of "fluff" for GA...and possibly for later stuff.

    -in TB, make the deployment value of the Toons used for Combat be worth 3X, the ones in Platoons 2X, and the ones you dump afterwards as is.
    -or make TB bigger with more Combat missions, so that you have to fight with more than just 4-6 teams.
    -allow people to reset any Toon's Abilities and Gear if less than Level 51 (keep Star counts as is)...currently the only way to keep more Mods in inventory is if Toons are at Level 50.
    -if that's not allowed, increase the players' Mods inventory capacity
    -rework old Toons to make them viable or useful in more than one aspect of the game. Give people an incentive to gear up those Toons further, make that game so that there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to say "I don't use that Toon anymore anywhere."

    Craziest idea:
    -eliminate the mid-level Gear crunch, but keep that Gear 10, 11, 12 gear crunch. That way more Toons can be Gear 9/10. Specifically MK3 Holo, MK3 Carbanti, and MK4 Keypad. Imagine a lot of players using high gear with powerful Mods on Lobot, or Eeth Koth, or B2 Battle Droid, or CUP, or Geo Spy, or Lando, or JKG, etc in TB and TW and GA.

    I don't think it has to be this complicated. I wish I could export the data so I could run a regression analysis, but my strong hunch is that there is some multicollinearity in the factors they use to measure GP.

    The way I look at it, level unlocks gear tiers up to G11 and 7* unlocks G12, which subsequently unlocks both G12+ and 6* mods. So if you're measuring all those factors independently and jumbling them together, you don't get a good sense of the "area readiness" of the player.

    My solution:
    Measure it based on a weighted gear tiers and ability tiers only.

    Remove mods from calculation - this GP measure allows for players to manipulate GP by removing them on low gear toons before matchmaking. 6* mods are only available to G12 toons, so you've already factored in the strength of the toon based on gear level and people aren't removing mods from those toons. PLUS you introduce a component of real resource management. Is this player still using guild currency to increase gear, or upgrade mods? my position is that someone not upgrading Mods SHOULD be at a disadvantage in PvP. This incentivizes a player to change behavior if they want to compete better in GA.

    Remove Stars from calculation - farming shards is the foundation of this game. People take joy in moving a character from 3 to 7*. Don't penalize people in grand arena matchmaking for starring up a character. You've already seen in the forums that people artificially depress their GP by not starring up a toon they don't plan to use. That's crazy to me. The game created a disincentive to progress a toon and an artificial advantage.

    Remove Level from calculation - again, players should not be penalized for leveling up a character and since gear tiers are unlocked by leveling up a character, you're already capturing the true strength of each toon by measuring it on gear only.

    TL;DR - For Grand Arena and TW simply measure GP on gear level and ability level (they already have a weighted point scale). It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be. I don't think anyone is advocating for a perfect match-up, just more equitable match-ups.

    Your keep repeating everything that has already been said in this thread without really adding any element that would help me understand/believe it though.
    You can « ignore » the hyperbole but then you’re going to miss the point because it’s not an hyperbole and it’s very important.

    I’m at 2.2m gp and any kind of fluff i might want to add to my roster would be a waste of ressources. I have a shortage of credits (even squads i use/plan to use like phoenix or imp troopers are not 85). I have a shortage of mk III ability mat, omegas and zetas (any ability past 3 on a toon i don’t use prevents me for upgrading a toon i use). I have a shortage of every kind of gear : don’t have mk5 hyposyringes needed by g11 resistance trooper, g7 qi’ra and g7 starck. Don’t have mk2 keypads required by almost any characters ingame at any gear lvl, don’t have mk3 holo...
    Pretty much anything i do on my account that’s not on a main character will slow my main characters development.

    With that being said, my roster could actually be a lot leaner. I always unlock and promote every character. I often put gear i have hundreds of on, but not systematically. I bring every ability to 3. And even weak characters have mods because i can often make use of them in tw. Plus i’m in a weak guild because i chose to stay with them so no g12+, no traya, only 20-22 stars in tb.
    With all this, both my match ups were very easy, against opponents with much weaker rosters than mine. Only way this happens is they wasted a lot of ressources compared to me, i don’t see anything unfair.

    What i’m saying is anyone under 3m gp with fluff wasted their ressources and are 100% responsible of the weakness of their roster. I say 3m but i don’t know where the cut off would be. That’s why my « hyperbole » you ignored is actually very important. For a player to reach a point in the game where they can lvl up, gear and up abilities to useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from important teams, they must have been playing a really long time and have very high gp. So i’ll repeat my questions then : how can they meet players with the same gp as them with so much stronger rosters if zero ressources were wasted ? How is that possible ? The difference between 20 g12 and 60 g12 is not a few months or a few hundred bucks. So obviously a day 1, or day 100, veteran player can’t complain either. So who can is my question. What kind of player would actually have a legit reason to complain about being « punished by the algorithm ». I think a lot the people complaining about that are not legitimate but don’t realise it because they don’t realise how much ressources they actually wasted.
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    T
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »

    This isn't completely accurate. Back when Territory Bore was announced, many of us took all of our trash toons (of which there are many) and leveled them to 85, geared them to 8, and slapped on mods in order to help increase GP for the game mode and help out our guilds.

    Did this act impede our ability to construct a "competitive" roster? I'd argue no, not really. Credits at the top end of the game are plentiful, so the amount spent leveling trash to 85 was not preventing us from from leveling a useful toon to 85. Likewise, gear needed to get toons to level 8 is readily available as side junk from bronziums and more developed gear farms. And of course, we put our cruddy extra mods on these toons. Would we have 1-2 more g12 toons if we had not done these actions? Probably. Would we have 20? No way.

    Yet, what this selfless team oriented action did was artificially inflate our GP and penalize us in both TW and now GA due to poor matchmaking that looks more or less solely at GP.

    Also, keep in mind that TB came before either of these two new modes, so the actions we took that inflated GP occurred BEFORE we could have know about negative ramifications for doing so. In other words, while you maintain a choice for roster development was involved, I'm stating there was no choice whatsoever.

    What really needs to happen is matchmaking needs to be made based on numbers of toons at various gear levels as opposed to GP.

    I'm Sorry, But this argument is CRAP. Since wayyy before there was TB, TW, yadda yadda, We were told to improve your roster, you have to be selective about what you spend your resources on. So, there are some of us who only gear up toons or factions when we have the resources to do so.

    If you think about it, you actually gain MORE points for TW if you actually finish all rounds (especially during the 6th phase) than you would if you "artificially inflate" your GP by leveling up toons to 85 and gear VIII. So if you worked on factions to do well in TB, then you had a great base to start with once TW started. And now the same for GA.

    So yes, the best thing to do is farm toons to 7* but dont Gear or lvl them up until you are ready to take them up to gear XII. Otherwise, you get these whiny posts.

    So in other words, don't actually play the game until you can absolutely max out a single toon?

    Here's the thing about your comment on "managing resources", the resources needed to level, star, mod, and minimally gear up toons do not need to be "managed" because they're in abundance for long-term players.

    Which brings us to the challenge of Grand Arena matchmaking based on GP, long-term players brought a lot of toons to G8, G9, or even G11 for a variety of reasons. Mod Challenges, events, generally fluffing, but the main reason for G11 is that it was the max gear level for toons. Then, with the release of G12 and new toons, you have a roster filled with toons that aren't relevant to PvP, but are decently geared simply because you've played for a long-time. Your GP is high, but your Grand Arena viability is low relative to a comparable GP, new whale. Basically this game design alienates long-term players relative to brand new whales.

    And this isn't a free game. People have invested time, money, or both into this game with the expectation that you wouldn't be penalized for allocating resources.

    I'm not saying I'm entitled to win because I've played for a long time. I simply want to walk into a game mode where the outcome isn't guaranteed one way or the other. I don't have fun annihilating my opponent and I don't have fun being annihilated. So I have provided constructive feedback on ways to improve matchmaking.

    Absolutely false..... Have you farmed the useless vets for rjt yet?..... I guarantee you will be woefully short of 20 a piece purple gear to get g8.... Especially if you are building up your fluff garbage toons.....

    Folks wanking about "helping their guild" with their crappy inflated lineups should take a step back.....

    How well do you do in tb combat missions?

    How much do you contribute to raids?

    Is your inflated gp hurting your guild in TW?

    Dude. I’ve already provided you my roster for review. Start participating like an adult or go away.

    Here it is. Again. Don’t lose it. https://swgoh.gg/p/959311831/

    I'm not going to keep your roster on speed dial, but thanks... I was simply pointing out that not all of the gear to get to G8 is worthless or "in abundance" as you said..... Do try and keep up....

    Trolls gonna troll.

    Bottom line. Your argument has been disproved over and over and over again. Gear required to get from G7 -> G8 does not overlap with the gear needed to get from G11 -> G12. And in the rare instances that it does, guess what, I leave a toon at G7. The gear crunch at G11 -> G12 are stun guns/cuffs, bacta gel, callers, implants, and other yellow gear. Not sure what toons you're gearing with this stuff to move from G7 to G8. Guess you just have magic toons no one else has seen.

    be blessed.

    Lol.... Nobody is trolling here.. Does the gear ever overlap or not? Can you really tell me you have tons of extra purple holo lenses, lower level droid callers etc? You literally get your toons from g7 to g8 without farming anything?

    No need to be salty dude.... It's just a game....

    I literally did exactly that. If I don't have a fat stock of something, I don't use it without a purpose. This gave me 41 g8s and rest of everything g7. I did zero amount of extra farming/resource reallocation while creating the fluff.

    There is something i don’t understand. I keep seeing people say things like « i’m a day 1 veteran player who upgraded useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from my main teams ». Some other people say it’s not really possible but they insist, they’ve been playing for so long and have so many ressources they can do it. Supposedly the matchmaking punishes those veteran players (some said, who also spent money) by matching them with stronger players with leaner rosters.

    My question is : how is this possible ? Who are those « stronger players » ? How can they have zero fluff but the same gp as you then ?
    The only ways those players exist, since they’ve not been playing months or years longer obviously, are
    - They paid for a competitive advantage (you want to take it from them?)
    - They’ve been much more active and efficient than you all along (don’t they deserve their edge then ?)

    Same argument can be made for toons who were « mandatory » at a time but not anymore (teebo, jawas, stuff). If that’s true, almost every long term player will have them, they make no difference in the match making.
    I have a hard time understanding how all those things said in this thread can be true at the same time.

    Not sure anyone here has said they're a day 1 veteran player, but I'll ignore the hyperbole because you bring up good questions. I'll try to explain as best I can.

    Let's look first at how GP is calculated: For each activated toon it measures, Stars, Level, GearTier, Abilities, and Mods.

    By themselves, Stars and Level have zero bearing on the toons performance, it simply unlocks the gear levels and abilities you can equip. Even 6* mods are gated behind G12, which itself is gated behind 7*. Credits are used to star and level characters, and long-term players have these in abundance. So, up until GA there was absolutely no resource management considerations that prevented you from starring and leveling those toons. In fact, it there was an incentive to do so because you could deploy more GP in TB. GREAT!

    Now comes an unannounced game mode (relative to the time they have been playing) that actually penalizes a player for having greater breadth in 7*, level 85 toons. Again, you may be asking "why make them level 85 if you don't plan to gear them?" and it's because there is no resource management consideration. I personally have 20 million in credits. There's no reason not to... until now.

    With GA matchmaking on GP, it's in the players best interest to not make incremental progress at all, but to simply research all the gear that is needed for a specific toon, farm its shards and then gear them and star them as rapidly as possible so as not to negatively impact competitiveness in GA. That doesn't seem in the spirit of a game that was designed for incremental progress and most definitely hurts those that aren't researching the game constantly on the forums or reddit.

    Now let's talk about 1 more key change to the game that impacts players, G12. In the past, G10 and G11 didn't have a huge performance gap. You were better off going to G11, but you might be able to pick off a couple of toons with a G10 squad. G12 changed this. If you are facing G12 toons with G11 toons, you're smoked. You're not knocking down any of their toons. There's no attrition any more. So when a matchmaking pairs off a player with 60 G12 toons against someone that has 30, even though they have similar GP they are grossly mismatched. That's not a competitive advantage... that's not even a competition.

    To your point about efficiency, this is false. There is very little overlap in gear to bring someone up to G7 or G8 versus G11 -> G12 gear. Once you are trying to move from G11 to G12, it's a completely different type of grind. Yes you need carbs and guns, but you also need a bunch of stuff that is unique to G11. Yellow gear and IV bacta gel, and VI callers and a bunch of stuff that doesn't come into the equation at lower gears. So why would you design a format that tells players to not put on any gear other toons that you can't immediately bring to G12? it defeats the whole concept of incremental progress and grinding.

    So the ask is, make matchmaking more equitable taking into account the tremendous performance gap between G12 and G11. My suggestion is to simply take out level, stars, and mods from the matchmaking equation, leaving just gear and abilities.

    Now you may be asking, "well, where's the advantage to the whale?" And it's in mods. A player that is spending on gear is farming the slicing components needed to bring mods to 6*. That still gives them a pretty large competitive advantage over lower and non-spenders.

    TL:DR - refining the matching GP to only account for weighted average gear level and abilities still provides an advantage to big spenders. So does removing mods from the equation. The goal isn't to make someone who pays a lot and someone who pays a little to have 1:1 competitive ratio. It's simply to bring the ratio to a level where players feel they can have fun playing. Go back and look at the first picture posted. 60 G12 v 21 G12. That's a nearly 300% difference in toons that are actually viable. That's not fun gameplay.

    I’m a dec’15 shard player and i spend my credits on mods, not aimlessly leveling my toons to 85. My lvl85 toons generally have uses be it ships, tb, arena, etc. Those that don’t have uses (e.g. CUP and mob enforcer) are completely sidelined. Food for thought yea?

    The CUP bonus in TW was dope. But again, duped into doing something that hurt my GA matchmaking. Ah well, the one shot kills on Jango were fun. Had excess gear laying around. Had a little fun. Food for thought, yeah?

    One-shot kill means u used mace. Mace is a fleet comm and with only 4 fleet comms around, he will always be useful in TW. Further, fleet is now part of GA, and we dont yet know if at higher GPs will there be a requirement for 2 fleets on defense (i.e. Mace is a necessity). Hence, your argument is invalid.

    Burning gear on a toon (CUP) that was going to be irrelevant in a matter of weeks is just bad decision making. In fact he became irrelevant in what, 2 weeks? Anyone with some amount of foresight and restraint wouldnt spam gear onto CUP just for on TW mode, and i'm not dumb enough to be duped into it. U had your fun, but now u cry foul?
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    T
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »

    This isn't completely accurate. Back when Territory Bore was announced, many of us took all of our trash toons (of which there are many) and leveled them to 85, geared them to 8, and slapped on mods in order to help increase GP for the game mode and help out our guilds.

    Did this act impede our ability to construct a "competitive" roster? I'd argue no, not really. Credits at the top end of the game are plentiful, so the amount spent leveling trash to 85 was not preventing us from from leveling a useful toon to 85. Likewise, gear needed to get toons to level 8 is readily available as side junk from bronziums and more developed gear farms. And of course, we put our cruddy extra mods on these toons. Would we have 1-2 more g12 toons if we had not done these actions? Probably. Would we have 20? No way.

    Yet, what this selfless team oriented action did was artificially inflate our GP and penalize us in both TW and now GA due to poor matchmaking that looks more or less solely at GP.

    Also, keep in mind that TB came before either of these two new modes, so the actions we took that inflated GP occurred BEFORE we could have know about negative ramifications for doing so. In other words, while you maintain a choice for roster development was involved, I'm stating there was no choice whatsoever.

    What really needs to happen is matchmaking needs to be made based on numbers of toons at various gear levels as opposed to GP.

    I'm Sorry, But this argument is CRAP. Since wayyy before there was TB, TW, yadda yadda, We were told to improve your roster, you have to be selective about what you spend your resources on. So, there are some of us who only gear up toons or factions when we have the resources to do so.

    If you think about it, you actually gain MORE points for TW if you actually finish all rounds (especially during the 6th phase) than you would if you "artificially inflate" your GP by leveling up toons to 85 and gear VIII. So if you worked on factions to do well in TB, then you had a great base to start with once TW started. And now the same for GA.

    So yes, the best thing to do is farm toons to 7* but dont Gear or lvl them up until you are ready to take them up to gear XII. Otherwise, you get these whiny posts.

    So in other words, don't actually play the game until you can absolutely max out a single toon?

    Here's the thing about your comment on "managing resources", the resources needed to level, star, mod, and minimally gear up toons do not need to be "managed" because they're in abundance for long-term players.

    Which brings us to the challenge of Grand Arena matchmaking based on GP, long-term players brought a lot of toons to G8, G9, or even G11 for a variety of reasons. Mod Challenges, events, generally fluffing, but the main reason for G11 is that it was the max gear level for toons. Then, with the release of G12 and new toons, you have a roster filled with toons that aren't relevant to PvP, but are decently geared simply because you've played for a long-time. Your GP is high, but your Grand Arena viability is low relative to a comparable GP, new whale. Basically this game design alienates long-term players relative to brand new whales.

    And this isn't a free game. People have invested time, money, or both into this game with the expectation that you wouldn't be penalized for allocating resources.

    I'm not saying I'm entitled to win because I've played for a long time. I simply want to walk into a game mode where the outcome isn't guaranteed one way or the other. I don't have fun annihilating my opponent and I don't have fun being annihilated. So I have provided constructive feedback on ways to improve matchmaking.

    Absolutely false..... Have you farmed the useless vets for rjt yet?..... I guarantee you will be woefully short of 20 a piece purple gear to get g8.... Especially if you are building up your fluff garbage toons.....

    Folks wanking about "helping their guild" with their crappy inflated lineups should take a step back.....

    How well do you do in tb combat missions?

    How much do you contribute to raids?

    Is your inflated gp hurting your guild in TW?

    Dude. I’ve already provided you my roster for review. Start participating like an adult or go away.

    Here it is. Again. Don’t lose it. https://swgoh.gg/p/959311831/

    I'm not going to keep your roster on speed dial, but thanks... I was simply pointing out that not all of the gear to get to G8 is worthless or "in abundance" as you said..... Do try and keep up....

    Trolls gonna troll.

    Bottom line. Your argument has been disproved over and over and over again. Gear required to get from G7 -> G8 does not overlap with the gear needed to get from G11 -> G12. And in the rare instances that it does, guess what, I leave a toon at G7. The gear crunch at G11 -> G12 are stun guns/cuffs, bacta gel, callers, implants, and other yellow gear. Not sure what toons you're gearing with this stuff to move from G7 to G8. Guess you just have magic toons no one else has seen.

    be blessed.

    Lol.... Nobody is trolling here.. Does the gear ever overlap or not? Can you really tell me you have tons of extra purple holo lenses, lower level droid callers etc? You literally get your toons from g7 to g8 without farming anything?

    No need to be salty dude.... It's just a game....

    I literally did exactly that. If I don't have a fat stock of something, I don't use it without a purpose. This gave me 41 g8s and rest of everything g7. I did zero amount of extra farming/resource reallocation while creating the fluff.

    There is something i don’t understand. I keep seeing people say things like « i’m a day 1 veteran player who upgraded useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from my main teams ». Some other people say it’s not really possible but they insist, they’ve been playing for so long and have so many ressources they can do it. Supposedly the matchmaking punishes those veteran players (some said, who also spent money) by matching them with stronger players with leaner rosters.

    My question is : how is this possible ? Who are those « stronger players » ? How can they have zero fluff but the same gp as you then ?
    The only ways those players exist, since they’ve not been playing months or years longer obviously, are
    - They paid for a competitive advantage (you want to take it from them?)
    - They’ve been much more active and efficient than you all along (don’t they deserve their edge then ?)

    Same argument can be made for toons who were « mandatory » at a time but not anymore (teebo, jawas, stuff). If that’s true, almost every long term player will have them, they make no difference in the match making.
    I have a hard time understanding how all those things said in this thread can be true at the same time.

    Not sure anyone here has said they're a day 1 veteran player, but I'll ignore the hyperbole because you bring up good questions. I'll try to explain as best I can.

    Let's look first at how GP is calculated: For each activated toon it measures, Stars, Level, GearTier, Abilities, and Mods.

    By themselves, Stars and Level have zero bearing on the toons performance, it simply unlocks the gear levels and abilities you can equip. Even 6* mods are gated behind G12, which itself is gated behind 7*. Credits are used to star and level characters, and long-term players have these in abundance. So, up until GA there was absolutely no resource management considerations that prevented you from starring and leveling those toons. In fact, it there was an incentive to do so because you could deploy more GP in TB. GREAT!

    Now comes an unannounced game mode (relative to the time they have been playing) that actually penalizes a player for having greater breadth in 7*, level 85 toons. Again, you may be asking "why make them level 85 if you don't plan to gear them?" and it's because there is no resource management consideration. I personally have 20 million in credits. There's no reason not to... until now.

    With GA matchmaking on GP, it's in the players best interest to not make incremental progress at all, but to simply research all the gear that is needed for a specific toon, farm its shards and then gear them and star them as rapidly as possible so as not to negatively impact competitiveness in GA. That doesn't seem in the spirit of a game that was designed for incremental progress and most definitely hurts those that aren't researching the game constantly on the forums or reddit.

    Now let's talk about 1 more key change to the game that impacts players, G12. In the past, G10 and G11 didn't have a huge performance gap. You were better off going to G11, but you might be able to pick off a couple of toons with a G10 squad. G12 changed this. If you are facing G12 toons with G11 toons, you're smoked. You're not knocking down any of their toons. There's no attrition any more. So when a matchmaking pairs off a player with 60 G12 toons against someone that has 30, even though they have similar GP they are grossly mismatched. That's not a competitive advantage... that's not even a competition.

    To your point about efficiency, this is false. There is very little overlap in gear to bring someone up to G7 or G8 versus G11 -> G12 gear. Once you are trying to move from G11 to G12, it's a completely different type of grind. Yes you need carbs and guns, but you also need a bunch of stuff that is unique to G11. Yellow gear and IV bacta gel, and VI callers and a bunch of stuff that doesn't come into the equation at lower gears. So why would you design a format that tells players to not put on any gear other toons that you can't immediately bring to G12? it defeats the whole concept of incremental progress and grinding.

    So the ask is, make matchmaking more equitable taking into account the tremendous performance gap between G12 and G11. My suggestion is to simply take out level, stars, and mods from the matchmaking equation, leaving just gear and abilities.

    Now you may be asking, "well, where's the advantage to the whale?" And it's in mods. A player that is spending on gear is farming the slicing components needed to bring mods to 6*. That still gives them a pretty large competitive advantage over lower and non-spenders.

    TL:DR - refining the matching GP to only account for weighted average gear level and abilities still provides an advantage to big spenders. So does removing mods from the equation. The goal isn't to make someone who pays a lot and someone who pays a little to have 1:1 competitive ratio. It's simply to bring the ratio to a level where players feel they can have fun playing. Go back and look at the first picture posted. 60 G12 v 21 G12. That's a nearly 300% difference in toons that are actually viable. That's not fun gameplay.

    I’m a dec’15 shard player and i spend my credits on mods, not aimlessly leveling my toons to 85. My lvl85 toons generally have uses be it ships, tb, arena, etc. Those that don’t have uses (e.g. CUP and mob enforcer) are completely sidelined. Food for thought yea?

    The CUP bonus in TW was dope. But again, duped into doing something that hurt my GA matchmaking. Ah well, the one shot kills on Jango were fun. Had excess gear laying around. Had a little fun. Food for thought, yeah?

    One-shot kill means u used mace. Mace is a fleet comm and with only 4 fleet comms around, he will always be useful in TW. Further, fleet is now part of GA, and we dont yet know if at higher GPs will there be a requirement for 2 fleets on defense (i.e. Mace is a necessity). Hence, your argument is invalid.

    Burning gear on a toon (CUP) that was going to be irrelevant in a matter of weeks is just bad decision making. In fact he became irrelevant in what, 2 weeks? Anyone with some amount of foresight and restraint wouldnt spam gear onto CUP just for on TW mode, and i'm not dumb enough to be duped into it. U had your fun, but now u cry foul?

    You can find my roster on this thread. I have everything I need for raids and TB. Playing these short-term boosters are fun to me. Has nothing to do with “foresight”. CG made a component that’s fun and I played. Isn’t that what the games designed for?

    Also, I don’t get all this hostility. I’ve already explained that I had gear to spare to get him, mace, and dooku to a gear tier that didn’t overlap on my progress getting my focus toons from G11 - G12.

    The whole point I’ve made over and over again is there is a better way to draw up matchups that doesn’t give an oversized advantage to PVP focused players. I’ve repeatedly stated how my method still gives them an advantage and how it’s warranted. Bye now.
  • JohnAran wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    We have to remember that there are 2 kinds of "fluff".
    1. throwing low level gear, abilities, and leveling up Toons for the sake of inflating GP
    2. Toons that we all once relied on as part of our Primary team(s) until we unlocked better ones. Mine are CW Chewie, Lumi, NS Acolyte, IG-86, etc...I'm sure other people have other examples.

    Here are my crazy ideas, that might solve the problem of "fluff" for GA...and possibly for later stuff.

    -in TB, make the deployment value of the Toons used for Combat be worth 3X, the ones in Platoons 2X, and the ones you dump afterwards as is.
    -or make TB bigger with more Combat missions, so that you have to fight with more than just 4-6 teams.
    -allow people to reset any Toon's Abilities and Gear if less than Level 51 (keep Star counts as is)...currently the only way to keep more Mods in inventory is if Toons are at Level 50.
    -if that's not allowed, increase the players' Mods inventory capacity
    -rework old Toons to make them viable or useful in more than one aspect of the game. Give people an incentive to gear up those Toons further, make that game so that there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to say "I don't use that Toon anymore anywhere."

    Craziest idea:
    -eliminate the mid-level Gear crunch, but keep that Gear 10, 11, 12 gear crunch. That way more Toons can be Gear 9/10. Specifically MK3 Holo, MK3 Carbanti, and MK4 Keypad. Imagine a lot of players using high gear with powerful Mods on Lobot, or Eeth Koth, or B2 Battle Droid, or CUP, or Geo Spy, or Lando, or JKG, etc in TB and TW and GA.

    I don't think it has to be this complicated. I wish I could export the data so I could run a regression analysis, but my strong hunch is that there is some multicollinearity in the factors they use to measure GP.

    The way I look at it, level unlocks gear tiers up to G11 and 7* unlocks G12, which subsequently unlocks both G12+ and 6* mods. So if you're measuring all those factors independently and jumbling them together, you don't get a good sense of the "area readiness" of the player.

    My solution:
    Measure it based on a weighted gear tiers and ability tiers only.

    Remove mods from calculation - this GP measure allows for players to manipulate GP by removing them on low gear toons before matchmaking. 6* mods are only available to G12 toons, so you've already factored in the strength of the toon based on gear level and people aren't removing mods from those toons. PLUS you introduce a component of real resource management. Is this player still using guild currency to increase gear, or upgrade mods? my position is that someone not upgrading Mods SHOULD be at a disadvantage in PvP. This incentivizes a player to change behavior if they want to compete better in GA.

    Remove Stars from calculation - farming shards is the foundation of this game. People take joy in moving a character from 3 to 7*. Don't penalize people in grand arena matchmaking for starring up a character. You've already seen in the forums that people artificially depress their GP by not starring up a toon they don't plan to use. That's crazy to me. The game created a disincentive to progress a toon and an artificial advantage.

    Remove Level from calculation - again, players should not be penalized for leveling up a character and since gear tiers are unlocked by leveling up a character, you're already capturing the true strength of each toon by measuring it on gear only.

    TL;DR - For Grand Arena and TW simply measure GP on gear level and ability level (they already have a weighted point scale). It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be. I don't think anyone is advocating for a perfect match-up, just more equitable match-ups.

    Your keep repeating everything that has already been said in this thread without really adding any element that would help me understand/believe it though.
    You can « ignore » the hyperbole but then you’re going to miss the point because it’s not an hyperbole and it’s very important.

    I’m at 2.2m gp and any kind of fluff i might want to add to my roster would be a waste of ressources. I have a shortage of credits (even squads i use/plan to use like phoenix or imp troopers are not 85). I have a shortage of mk III ability mat, omegas and zetas (any ability past 3 on a toon i don’t use prevents me for upgrading a toon i use). I have a shortage of every kind of gear : don’t have mk5 hyposyringes needed by g11 resistance trooper, g7 qi’ra and g7 starck. Don’t have mk2 keypads required by almost any characters ingame at any gear lvl, don’t have mk3 holo...
    Pretty much anything i do on my account that’s not on a main character will slow my main characters development.

    With that being said, my roster could actually be a lot leaner. I always unlock and promote every character. I often put gear i have hundreds of on, but not systematically. I bring every ability to 3. And even weak characters have mods because i can often make use of them in tw. Plus i’m in a weak guild because i chose to stay with them so no g12+, no traya, only 20-22 stars in tb.
    With all this, both my match ups were very easy, against opponents with much weaker rosters than mine. Only way this happens is they wasted a lot of ressources compared to me, i don’t see anything unfair.

    What i’m saying is anyone under 3m gp with fluff wasted their ressources and are 100% responsible of the weakness of their roster. I say 3m but i don’t know where the cut off would be. That’s why my « hyperbole » you ignored is actually very important. For a player to reach a point in the game where they can lvl up, gear and up abilities to useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from important teams, they must have been playing a really long time and have very high gp. So i’ll repeat my questions then : how can they meet players with the same gp as them with so much stronger rosters if zero ressources were wasted ? How is that possible ? The difference between 20 g12 and 60 g12 is not a few months or a few hundred bucks. So obviously a day 1, or day 100, veteran player can’t complain either. So who can is my question. What kind of player would actually have a legit reason to complain about being « punished by the algorithm ». I think a lot the people complaining about that are not legitimate but don’t realise it because they don’t realise how much ressources they actually wasted.


    I’ll make this short. You’re at a different progress point in the game and therefore have no context to understand what I’m talking about for long-term players. My solution Presented doesn’t make collectors and PVP focused players 1:1 in matchups, it still gives PvP players an advantage. So.... I don’t know what you want from this? Some debate on best ways to play the game?

    Do you have any feedback on measuring matchups based on weighted gear tier and abilities only? Because that’s what we’re discussing.
  • No_Try
    3661 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ruin3rr wrote: »
    Posted a suggestion before that would've prevented these poorly matched GA fights. Kyno

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/189218/tw-grand-arena-gp#latest

    I dont make the systems.

    As I have stated, i am not totally opposed to GP matching and letting players choices and play style play through in how they will do in this game mode.

    I am also under the impression that GP is NOT the only factor involved, but they dont give out specific details.

    I actually think that at least for now total GP is the only thing being considered. When I checked my last opponent right after we were paired, our GPs differed by 1 point. It seems like what they’re doing is just counting down two-by-two from the top of the GP bracket. That’s my guess.

    I can tell you that, they are giving the impression that they are NOT only looking just GP. So it is not as simple as you are saying, but it also doesnt sound like it is as complex as the TW one either. Again its hard since they will not give details in any way.

    You may be right, but if so, it’s a HUGE coincidence that my last opponent and I differed by only one point of total GP. I wish I had taken screenshots.

    Why would it be a huge coincidence that one of the factors they use for matching was close? They do use it as a factor just not the only one. It could also be the primary one, no one knows. But its not the only one. That is all I'm saying.

    Can you have one quote that even implies something it may not be only based on GP please? Both the announcement and Crumb's Q/A implies none.

    It was implied to us, we have been asking for more information and they are working on it. The impression we got from the information gathered is that it is not the sole matching characteristics.

    That's even more crpytic. You mean implied to moderators?

    Yes. I'm not trying to be cryptic, they stated to us there is more to it than that and they are working on what they can explain. I imagine it will be just as vague as the TW explanation.

    I dont have details so I'm trying to give what I have.

    Ah ok then. I'll take your word.

    This is just the more reason to believe it isn't gauging variables well.
  • Boov wrote: »
    Austin9370 wrote: »
    I have a radical idea, just base it off approximate start date of the game and make it completely random. This way people aren't punished for collecting. There may be times where you're at a complete disadvantage, but other times you have the advantage. However, the winner could end up being basically drawn based on the matchup too often is my issue and the mode could lose it's competitiveness.

    How is that not punishing to collectors? I'll run circels around players who started roughly at the same time i did but didn't focus.

    Being a collector doesn't necessarily make you weak....but that's the point. You're matched up with people who had the same opportunity as you to play the game. Why should my competition be difficult for expanding my GP?
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    We have to remember that there are 2 kinds of "fluff".
    1. throwing low level gear, abilities, and leveling up Toons for the sake of inflating GP
    2. Toons that we all once relied on as part of our Primary team(s) until we unlocked better ones. Mine are CW Chewie, Lumi, NS Acolyte, IG-86, etc...I'm sure other people have other examples.

    Here are my crazy ideas, that might solve the problem of "fluff" for GA...and possibly for later stuff.

    -in TB, make the deployment value of the Toons used for Combat be worth 3X, the ones in Platoons 2X, and the ones you dump afterwards as is.
    -or make TB bigger with more Combat missions, so that you have to fight with more than just 4-6 teams.
    -allow people to reset any Toon's Abilities and Gear if less than Level 51 (keep Star counts as is)...currently the only way to keep more Mods in inventory is if Toons are at Level 50.
    -if that's not allowed, increase the players' Mods inventory capacity
    -rework old Toons to make them viable or useful in more than one aspect of the game. Give people an incentive to gear up those Toons further, make that game so that there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to say "I don't use that Toon anymore anywhere."

    Craziest idea:
    -eliminate the mid-level Gear crunch, but keep that Gear 10, 11, 12 gear crunch. That way more Toons can be Gear 9/10. Specifically MK3 Holo, MK3 Carbanti, and MK4 Keypad. Imagine a lot of players using high gear with powerful Mods on Lobot, or Eeth Koth, or B2 Battle Droid, or CUP, or Geo Spy, or Lando, or JKG, etc in TB and TW and GA.

    I don't think it has to be this complicated. I wish I could export the data so I could run a regression analysis, but my strong hunch is that there is some multicollinearity in the factors they use to measure GP.

    The way I look at it, level unlocks gear tiers up to G11 and 7* unlocks G12, which subsequently unlocks both G12+ and 6* mods. So if you're measuring all those factors independently and jumbling them together, you don't get a good sense of the "area readiness" of the player.

    My solution:
    Measure it based on a weighted gear tiers and ability tiers only.

    Remove mods from calculation - this GP measure allows for players to manipulate GP by removing them on low gear toons before matchmaking. 6* mods are only available to G12 toons, so you've already factored in the strength of the toon based on gear level and people aren't removing mods from those toons. PLUS you introduce a component of real resource management. Is this player still using guild currency to increase gear, or upgrade mods? my position is that someone not upgrading Mods SHOULD be at a disadvantage in PvP. This incentivizes a player to change behavior if they want to compete better in GA.

    Remove Stars from calculation - farming shards is the foundation of this game. People take joy in moving a character from 3 to 7*. Don't penalize people in grand arena matchmaking for starring up a character. You've already seen in the forums that people artificially depress their GP by not starring up a toon they don't plan to use. That's crazy to me. The game created a disincentive to progress a toon and an artificial advantage.

    Remove Level from calculation - again, players should not be penalized for leveling up a character and since gear tiers are unlocked by leveling up a character, you're already capturing the true strength of each toon by measuring it on gear only.

    TL;DR - For Grand Arena and TW simply measure GP on gear level and ability level (they already have a weighted point scale). It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be. I don't think anyone is advocating for a perfect match-up, just more equitable match-ups.

    Your keep repeating everything that has already been said in this thread without really adding any element that would help me understand/believe it though.
    You can « ignore » the hyperbole but then you’re going to miss the point because it’s not an hyperbole and it’s very important.

    I’m at 2.2m gp and any kind of fluff i might want to add to my roster would be a waste of ressources. I have a shortage of credits (even squads i use/plan to use like phoenix or imp troopers are not 85). I have a shortage of mk III ability mat, omegas and zetas (any ability past 3 on a toon i don’t use prevents me for upgrading a toon i use). I have a shortage of every kind of gear : don’t have mk5 hyposyringes needed by g11 resistance trooper, g7 qi’ra and g7 starck. Don’t have mk2 keypads required by almost any characters ingame at any gear lvl, don’t have mk3 holo...
    Pretty much anything i do on my account that’s not on a main character will slow my main characters development.

    With that being said, my roster could actually be a lot leaner. I always unlock and promote every character. I often put gear i have hundreds of on, but not systematically. I bring every ability to 3. And even weak characters have mods because i can often make use of them in tw. Plus i’m in a weak guild because i chose to stay with them so no g12+, no traya, only 20-22 stars in tb.
    With all this, both my match ups were very easy, against opponents with much weaker rosters than mine. Only way this happens is they wasted a lot of ressources compared to me, i don’t see anything unfair.

    What i’m saying is anyone under 3m gp with fluff wasted their ressources and are 100% responsible of the weakness of their roster. I say 3m but i don’t know where the cut off would be. That’s why my « hyperbole » you ignored is actually very important. For a player to reach a point in the game where they can lvl up, gear and up abilities to useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from important teams, they must have been playing a really long time and have very high gp. So i’ll repeat my questions then : how can they meet players with the same gp as them with so much stronger rosters if zero ressources were wasted ? How is that possible ? The difference between 20 g12 and 60 g12 is not a few months or a few hundred bucks. So obviously a day 1, or day 100, veteran player can’t complain either. So who can is my question. What kind of player would actually have a legit reason to complain about being « punished by the algorithm ». I think a lot the people complaining about that are not legitimate but don’t realise it because they don’t realise how much ressources they actually wasted.


    I’ll make this short. You’re at a different progress point in the game and therefore have no context to understand what I’m talking about for long-term players. My solution Presented doesn’t make collectors and PVP focused players 1:1 in matchups, it still gives PvP players an advantage. So.... I don’t know what you want from this? Some debate on best ways to play the game?

    Do you have any feedback on measuring matchups based on weighted gear tier and abilities only? Because that’s what we’re discussing.

    Which is why i’m asking questions. I also have a brain and the ability to understand what people say. I explicitly said that I was trying to identify the players for whom « what you’re talking about for long-term players » was true. Because « long-term » doesn’t mean much.

    Measuring matchups based on weighted gear tier and abilities only is absolutely not what we’re discussing. We are discussing the fact that the current match making is or is not fair, and requires or doesn’t require a change. Maybe even suggesting changes. I’m trying to understand who would want to change the algorithm and why, and if those reasons are legitimate. Specifically because as of now i think the match making is fine. So you want feedback : i don’t care about measuring match up in any way other than the one we got now. That will remain true until i have a reason to think the current one is really not good, which is what i’m trying to get from the people complaining. You are the only one who answered me but you are not able to adress the points i’m interested in. No big deal.
    Just a thought on your idea though : when i upgrade my roster it’s to be stronger than my opponents, not meet stronger opponents. If you match stronger players together you need to give them better rewards.
  • Liath
    4545 posts Member
    Austin9370 wrote: »
    I have a radical idea, just base it off approximate start date of the game and make it completely random. This way people aren't punished for collecting. There may be times where you're at a complete disadvantage, but other times you have the advantage. However, the winner could end up being basically drawn based on the matchup too often is my issue and the mode could lose it's competitiveness.

    We already have an arena in which you compete against the people who started at approximately the same time as you. This is meant to be a broader competition matching people that don’t otherwise get to face each other.
  • Liath wrote: »
    Austin9370 wrote: »
    I have a radical idea, just base it off approximate start date of the game and make it completely random. This way people aren't punished for collecting. There may be times where you're at a complete disadvantage, but other times you have the advantage. However, the winner could end up being basically drawn based on the matchup too often is my issue and the mode could lose it's competitiveness.

    We already have an arena in which you compete against the people who started at approximately the same time as you. This is meant to be a broader competition matching people that don’t otherwise get to face each other.

    Somebody is spot on.
  • Rebel_yell
    928 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    JohnAran wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    We have to remember that there are 2 kinds of "fluff".
    1. throwing low level gear, abilities, and leveling up Toons for the sake of inflating GP
    2. Toons that we all once relied on as part of our Primary team(s) until we unlocked better ones. Mine are CW Chewie, Lumi, NS Acolyte, IG-86, etc...I'm sure other people have other examples.

    Here are my crazy ideas, that might solve the problem of "fluff" for GA...and possibly for later stuff.

    -in TB, make the deployment value of the Toons used for Combat be worth 3X, the ones in Platoons 2X, and the ones you dump afterwards as is.
    -or make TB bigger with more Combat missions, so that you have to fight with more than just 4-6 teams.
    -allow people to reset any Toon's Abilities and Gear if less than Level 51 (keep Star counts as is)...currently the only way to keep more Mods in inventory is if Toons are at Level 50.
    -if that's not allowed, increase the players' Mods inventory capacity
    -rework old Toons to make them viable or useful in more than one aspect of the game. Give people an incentive to gear up those Toons further, make that game so that there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to say "I don't use that Toon anymore anywhere."

    Craziest idea:
    -eliminate the mid-level Gear crunch, but keep that Gear 10, 11, 12 gear crunch. That way more Toons can be Gear 9/10. Specifically MK3 Holo, MK3 Carbanti, and MK4 Keypad. Imagine a lot of players using high gear with powerful Mods on Lobot, or Eeth Koth, or B2 Battle Droid, or CUP, or Geo Spy, or Lando, or JKG, etc in TB and TW and GA.

    I don't think it has to be this complicated. I wish I could export the data so I could run a regression analysis, but my strong hunch is that there is some multicollinearity in the factors they use to measure GP.

    The way I look at it, level unlocks gear tiers up to G11 and 7* unlocks G12, which subsequently unlocks both G12+ and 6* mods. So if you're measuring all those factors independently and jumbling them together, you don't get a good sense of the "area readiness" of the player.

    My solution:
    Measure it based on a weighted gear tiers and ability tiers only.

    Remove mods from calculation - this GP measure allows for players to manipulate GP by removing them on low gear toons before matchmaking. 6* mods are only available to G12 toons, so you've already factored in the strength of the toon based on gear level and people aren't removing mods from those toons. PLUS you introduce a component of real resource management. Is this player still using guild currency to increase gear, or upgrade mods? my position is that someone not upgrading Mods SHOULD be at a disadvantage in PvP. This incentivizes a player to change behavior if they want to compete better in GA.

    Remove Stars from calculation - farming shards is the foundation of this game. People take joy in moving a character from 3 to 7*. Don't penalize people in grand arena matchmaking for starring up a character. You've already seen in the forums that people artificially depress their GP by not starring up a toon they don't plan to use. That's crazy to me. The game created a disincentive to progress a toon and an artificial advantage.

    Remove Level from calculation - again, players should not be penalized for leveling up a character and since gear tiers are unlocked by leveling up a character, you're already capturing the true strength of each toon by measuring it on gear only.

    TL;DR - For Grand Arena and TW simply measure GP on gear level and ability level (they already have a weighted point scale). It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be. I don't think anyone is advocating for a perfect match-up, just more equitable match-ups.

    Your keep repeating everything that has already been said in this thread without really adding any element that would help me understand/believe it though.
    You can « ignore » the hyperbole but then you’re going to miss the point because it’s not an hyperbole and it’s very important.

    I’m at 2.2m gp and any kind of fluff i might want to add to my roster would be a waste of ressources. I have a shortage of credits (even squads i use/plan to use like phoenix or imp troopers are not 85). I have a shortage of mk III ability mat, omegas and zetas (any ability past 3 on a toon i don’t use prevents me for upgrading a toon i use). I have a shortage of every kind of gear : don’t have mk5 hyposyringes needed by g11 resistance trooper, g7 qi’ra and g7 starck. Don’t have mk2 keypads required by almost any characters ingame at any gear lvl, don’t have mk3 holo...
    Pretty much anything i do on my account that’s not on a main character will slow my main characters development.

    With that being said, my roster could actually be a lot leaner. I always unlock and promote every character. I often put gear i have hundreds of on, but not systematically. I bring every ability to 3. And even weak characters have mods because i can often make use of them in tw. Plus i’m in a weak guild because i chose to stay with them so no g12+, no traya, only 20-22 stars in tb.
    With all this, both my match ups were very easy, against opponents with much weaker rosters than mine. Only way this happens is they wasted a lot of ressources compared to me, i don’t see anything unfair.

    What i’m saying is anyone under 3m gp with fluff wasted their ressources and are 100% responsible of the weakness of their roster. I say 3m but i don’t know where the cut off would be. That’s why my « hyperbole » you ignored is actually very important. For a player to reach a point in the game where they can lvl up, gear and up abilities to useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from important teams, they must have been playing a really long time and have very high gp. So i’ll repeat my questions then : how can they meet players with the same gp as them with so much stronger rosters if zero ressources were wasted ? How is that possible ? The difference between 20 g12 and 60 g12 is not a few months or a few hundred bucks. So obviously a day 1, or day 100, veteran player can’t complain either. So who can is my question. What kind of player would actually have a legit reason to complain about being « punished by the algorithm ». I think a lot the people complaining about that are not legitimate but don’t realise it because they don’t realise how much ressources they actually wasted.


    I’ll make this short. You’re at a different progress point in the game and therefore have no context to understand what I’m talking about for long-term players. My solution Presented doesn’t make collectors and PVP focused players 1:1 in matchups, it still gives PvP players an advantage. So.... I don’t know what you want from this? Some debate on best ways to play the game?

    Do you have any feedback on measuring matchups based on weighted gear tier and abilities only? Because that’s what we’re discussing.

    Which is why i’m asking questions. I also have a brain and the ability to understand what people say. I explicitly said that I was trying to identify the players for whom « what you’re talking about for long-term players » was true. Because « long-term » doesn’t mean much.

    Measuring matchups based on weighted gear tier and abilities only is absolutely not what we’re discussing. We are discussing the fact that the current match making is or is not fair, and requires or doesn’t require a change. Maybe even suggesting changes. I’m trying to understand who would want to change the algorithm and why, and if those reasons are legitimate. Specifically because as of now i think the match making is fine. So you want feedback : i don’t care about measuring match up in any way other than the one we got now. That will remain true until i have a reason to think the current one is really not good, which is what i’m trying to get from the people complaining. You are the only one who answered me but you are not able to adress the points i’m interested in. No big deal.
    Just a thought on your idea though : when i upgrade my roster it’s to be stronger than my opponents, not meet stronger opponents. If you match stronger players together you need to give them better rewards.

    Valid. And here's why I personally think the matchmaking needs to be changed. Regardless if you're a long-term (meaning more 7* and 85 level characters) or shorter-term (more lower geared toons) there are play styles that differ, collector or competitor are generally the terms used to describe. Carrie specifically stated they want to design a game that caters to both play styles. Hence, the release of TB and TW. Two different types of events that give advantage to different play styles. (And without getting into the entire history of the game, developers have previously both encouraged collecting, and forced collecting, that is no longer relevant to game play.)

    Second point, GP calculations for a toons power changed so that players could better evaluate the strength of the 5 toon team they faced in PVP, not to measure the overall strength of an entire roster. (i've described how stars and levels overlap with gear tier in a previous post so I won't revisit this)

    Third point, it used to be that many G10, could compete against a few G11 toons. G12 changed this. G11 can't dent G12 unless it's a direct counter, and even then you'll only knock down maybe 1 toon. So, 5:1 resources required.

    So this is our baseline. Game designed to cater to 2 separate types of players / guilds, using a new GP valuation that was designed to measure 5 toon v 5 toon battles, and an insurmountable gear differential with release of G12.

    The game has 160+ total characters... I think, but the pool of usable toons in PvP is restricted to premier toons that can compete at lower stars / gear and G12 toons. Given GA limited to players level 85, everyone will have one or be fairly close to G12. Now in a GP measured universe, 4 7 star, level 1 toons = 1 G12 toon, but you can't use those other ones for competition.... so if you're saying those 4 toons are the equivilent to 1 G12 toon your matchmaking is going to be way off because you can't use them against a G12.

    It also creates an incentive to NOT play the game. If someone wants to be in a favorable matchup in GA, they wouldn't star up any of their toons even if they have the requisite shards. Also, because Mods are factored into GP, you can game the system by removing mods from any toons you don't plan to use, depressing GP, getting more favorable matchups. (Mods in and of themselves are measured inaccurately for PVP. All 5* mods are created equal relative to GP, but we all know relative to PvP this isn't true)

    Now you're probably asking yourself, doesn't this just boil down to resource management? And the simple answer is no, because the G12 gear wall has unique gear pieces. So if you have already achieved a certain goal (e.g., you have a strong arena team, you're doing well in raids, etc) you shouldn't be penalized in an event that gives rewards for simply expanding your roster.

    TL;DR - GP was redesigned to measure 5 v 5 matchups. The way GP is measured makes 4 7*, level 1 toons = 1 G12 toon. This can create a dramatic mismatch, encourages gaming of the system, and alienates players.

    RE Increasing Rewards at higher GP - I don't know that this is in the design (like TW), but they've typically designed the game so that finishing 1st in a lower tier is better than finishing last in a higher reward tier

    Edit - and again, I want to emphasize this. I think competitors SHOULD have an advantage in matchmaking. I just don't want a game mode where players are discouraged from participating because of huge mismatches or players encouraged to game the system. For what it's worth, I won my "preview" GA. I have a strong roster. I spend too much time on the forums. I still want the game to be competitive for all.

  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    T
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    JohnAran wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »

    This isn't completely accurate. Back when Territory Bore was announced, many of us took all of our trash toons (of which there are many) and leveled them to 85, geared them to 8, and slapped on mods in order to help increase GP for the game mode and help out our guilds.

    Did this act impede our ability to construct a "competitive" roster? I'd argue no, not really. Credits at the top end of the game are plentiful, so the amount spent leveling trash to 85 was not preventing us from from leveling a useful toon to 85. Likewise, gear needed to get toons to level 8 is readily available as side junk from bronziums and more developed gear farms. And of course, we put our cruddy extra mods on these toons. Would we have 1-2 more g12 toons if we had not done these actions? Probably. Would we have 20? No way.

    Yet, what this selfless team oriented action did was artificially inflate our GP and penalize us in both TW and now GA due to poor matchmaking that looks more or less solely at GP.

    Also, keep in mind that TB came before either of these two new modes, so the actions we took that inflated GP occurred BEFORE we could have know about negative ramifications for doing so. In other words, while you maintain a choice for roster development was involved, I'm stating there was no choice whatsoever.

    What really needs to happen is matchmaking needs to be made based on numbers of toons at various gear levels as opposed to GP.

    I'm Sorry, But this argument is CRAP. Since wayyy before there was TB, TW, yadda yadda, We were told to improve your roster, you have to be selective about what you spend your resources on. So, there are some of us who only gear up toons or factions when we have the resources to do so.

    If you think about it, you actually gain MORE points for TW if you actually finish all rounds (especially during the 6th phase) than you would if you "artificially inflate" your GP by leveling up toons to 85 and gear VIII. So if you worked on factions to do well in TB, then you had a great base to start with once TW started. And now the same for GA.

    So yes, the best thing to do is farm toons to 7* but dont Gear or lvl them up until you are ready to take them up to gear XII. Otherwise, you get these whiny posts.

    So in other words, don't actually play the game until you can absolutely max out a single toon?

    Here's the thing about your comment on "managing resources", the resources needed to level, star, mod, and minimally gear up toons do not need to be "managed" because they're in abundance for long-term players.

    Which brings us to the challenge of Grand Arena matchmaking based on GP, long-term players brought a lot of toons to G8, G9, or even G11 for a variety of reasons. Mod Challenges, events, generally fluffing, but the main reason for G11 is that it was the max gear level for toons. Then, with the release of G12 and new toons, you have a roster filled with toons that aren't relevant to PvP, but are decently geared simply because you've played for a long-time. Your GP is high, but your Grand Arena viability is low relative to a comparable GP, new whale. Basically this game design alienates long-term players relative to brand new whales.

    And this isn't a free game. People have invested time, money, or both into this game with the expectation that you wouldn't be penalized for allocating resources.

    I'm not saying I'm entitled to win because I've played for a long time. I simply want to walk into a game mode where the outcome isn't guaranteed one way or the other. I don't have fun annihilating my opponent and I don't have fun being annihilated. So I have provided constructive feedback on ways to improve matchmaking.

    Absolutely false..... Have you farmed the useless vets for rjt yet?..... I guarantee you will be woefully short of 20 a piece purple gear to get g8.... Especially if you are building up your fluff garbage toons.....

    Folks wanking about "helping their guild" with their crappy inflated lineups should take a step back.....

    How well do you do in tb combat missions?

    How much do you contribute to raids?

    Is your inflated gp hurting your guild in TW?

    Dude. I’ve already provided you my roster for review. Start participating like an adult or go away.

    Here it is. Again. Don’t lose it. https://swgoh.gg/p/959311831/

    I'm not going to keep your roster on speed dial, but thanks... I was simply pointing out that not all of the gear to get to G8 is worthless or "in abundance" as you said..... Do try and keep up....

    Trolls gonna troll.

    Bottom line. Your argument has been disproved over and over and over again. Gear required to get from G7 -> G8 does not overlap with the gear needed to get from G11 -> G12. And in the rare instances that it does, guess what, I leave a toon at G7. The gear crunch at G11 -> G12 are stun guns/cuffs, bacta gel, callers, implants, and other yellow gear. Not sure what toons you're gearing with this stuff to move from G7 to G8. Guess you just have magic toons no one else has seen.

    be blessed.

    Lol.... Nobody is trolling here.. Does the gear ever overlap or not? Can you really tell me you have tons of extra purple holo lenses, lower level droid callers etc? You literally get your toons from g7 to g8 without farming anything?

    No need to be salty dude.... It's just a game....

    I literally did exactly that. If I don't have a fat stock of something, I don't use it without a purpose. This gave me 41 g8s and rest of everything g7. I did zero amount of extra farming/resource reallocation while creating the fluff.

    There is something i don’t understand. I keep seeing people say things like « i’m a day 1 veteran player who upgraded useless toons without diverting any kind of ressources from my main teams ». Some other people say it’s not really possible but they insist, they’ve been playing for so long and have so many ressources they can do it. Supposedly the matchmaking punishes those veteran players (some said, who also spent money) by matching them with stronger players with leaner rosters.

    My question is : how is this possible ? Who are those « stronger players » ? How can they have zero fluff but the same gp as you then ?
    The only ways those players exist, since they’ve not been playing months or years longer obviously, are
    - They paid for a competitive advantage (you want to take it from them?)
    - They’ve been much more active and efficient than you all along (don’t they deserve their edge then ?)

    Same argument can be made for toons who were « mandatory » at a time but not anymore (teebo, jawas, stuff). If that’s true, almost every long term player will have them, they make no difference in the match making.
    I have a hard time understanding how all those things said in this thread can be true at the same time.

    Not sure anyone here has said they're a day 1 veteran player, but I'll ignore the hyperbole because you bring up good questions. I'll try to explain as best I can.

    Let's look first at how GP is calculated: For each activated toon it measures, Stars, Level, GearTier, Abilities, and Mods.

    By themselves, Stars and Level have zero bearing on the toons performance, it simply unlocks the gear levels and abilities you can equip. Even 6* mods are gated behind G12, which itself is gated behind 7*. Credits are used to star and level characters, and long-term players have these in abundance. So, up until GA there was absolutely no resource management considerations that prevented you from starring and leveling those toons. In fact, it there was an incentive to do so because you could deploy more GP in TB. GREAT!

    Now comes an unannounced game mode (relative to the time they have been playing) that actually penalizes a player for having greater breadth in 7*, level 85 toons. Again, you may be asking "why make them level 85 if you don't plan to gear them?" and it's because there is no resource management consideration. I personally have 20 million in credits. There's no reason not to... until now.

    With GA matchmaking on GP, it's in the players best interest to not make incremental progress at all, but to simply research all the gear that is needed for a specific toon, farm its shards and then gear them and star them as rapidly as possible so as not to negatively impact competitiveness in GA. That doesn't seem in the spirit of a game that was designed for incremental progress and most definitely hurts those that aren't researching the game constantly on the forums or reddit.

    Now let's talk about 1 more key change to the game that impacts players, G12. In the past, G10 and G11 didn't have a huge performance gap. You were better off going to G11, but you might be able to pick off a couple of toons with a G10 squad. G12 changed this. If you are facing G12 toons with G11 toons, you're smoked. You're not knocking down any of their toons. There's no attrition any more. So when a matchmaking pairs off a player with 60 G12 toons against someone that has 30, even though they have similar GP they are grossly mismatched. That's not a competitive advantage... that's not even a competition.

    To your point about efficiency, this is false. There is very little overlap in gear to bring someone up to G7 or G8 versus G11 -> G12 gear. Once you are trying to move from G11 to G12, it's a completely different type of grind. Yes you need carbs and guns, but you also need a bunch of stuff that is unique to G11. Yellow gear and IV bacta gel, and VI callers and a bunch of stuff that doesn't come into the equation at lower gears. So why would you design a format that tells players to not put on any gear other toons that you can't immediately bring to G12? it defeats the whole concept of incremental progress and grinding.

    So the ask is, make matchmaking more equitable taking into account the tremendous performance gap between G12 and G11. My suggestion is to simply take out level, stars, and mods from the matchmaking equation, leaving just gear and abilities.

    Now you may be asking, "well, where's the advantage to the whale?" And it's in mods. A player that is spending on gear is farming the slicing components needed to bring mods to 6*. That still gives them a pretty large competitive advantage over lower and non-spenders.

    TL:DR - refining the matching GP to only account for weighted average gear level and abilities still provides an advantage to big spenders. So does removing mods from the equation. The goal isn't to make someone who pays a lot and someone who pays a little to have 1:1 competitive ratio. It's simply to bring the ratio to a level where players feel they can have fun playing. Go back and look at the first picture posted. 60 G12 v 21 G12. That's a nearly 300% difference in toons that are actually viable. That's not fun gameplay.

    I’m a dec’15 shard player and i spend my credits on mods, not aimlessly leveling my toons to 85. My lvl85 toons generally have uses be it ships, tb, arena, etc. Those that don’t have uses (e.g. CUP and mob enforcer) are completely sidelined. Food for thought yea?

    The CUP bonus in TW was dope. But again, duped into doing something that hurt my GA matchmaking. Ah well, the one shot kills on Jango were fun. Had excess gear laying around. Had a little fun. Food for thought, yeah?

    One-shot kill means u used mace. Mace is a fleet comm and with only 4 fleet comms around, he will always be useful in TW. Further, fleet is now part of GA, and we dont yet know if at higher GPs will there be a requirement for 2 fleets on defense (i.e. Mace is a necessity). Hence, your argument is invalid.

    Burning gear on a toon (CUP) that was going to be irrelevant in a matter of weeks is just bad decision making. In fact he became irrelevant in what, 2 weeks? Anyone with some amount of foresight and restraint wouldnt spam gear onto CUP just for on TW mode, and i'm not dumb enough to be duped into it. U had your fun, but now u cry foul?

    You can find my roster on this thread. I have everything I need for raids and TB. Playing these short-term boosters are fun to me. Has nothing to do with “foresight”. CG made a component that’s fun and I played. Isn’t that what the games designed for?

    Also, I don’t get all this hostility. I’ve already explained that I had gear to spare to get him, mace, and dooku to a gear tier that didn’t overlap on my progress getting my focus toons from G11 - G12.

    The whole point I’ve made over and over again is there is a better way to draw up matchups that doesn’t give an oversized advantage to PVP focused players. I’ve repeatedly stated how my method still gives them an advantage and how it’s warranted. Bye now.

    It was a fun component and u played, and then u complain that u put resources into that. I see your roster, i guess your complaint is more or less "why am i matched against revans?" is it not?

    The game mode is PVP. Obviously pvp focused players are gonna get an advantage. Further, we've only just seen the exhibition matches and we don't know for sure how it's gonna play out. But my guess is this - if you are in the 3.9m bracket, u are gonna meet players with revans and trayas, revans only, trayas only, and g12 cups since there will be 8 players in total. It's a ridiculous nightmare if the GA matchup has 8 players with the exact same highly pvp focused squads - imagine all 8 being mere single digit points apart from each other, they will surely revolt.

    Anyway, chances are a roster like yours will be likely in the 2-4 prize bracket already, so i don't see what's unfair about it.
  • Liath
    4545 posts Member
    the pool of usable toons in PvP is restricted to premier toons that can compete at lower stars / gear and G12 toons.

    This might be true in your GP range but it’s definitely not true in mine for GA purposes. 12 teams is a lot. Both of my opponents placed defense teams with multiple g8 characters on them, and I used g8 characters to fight those teams.
  • Those players were very happy to fluff their roster, making it so they received better rewards in one or more area of the game shouldn't be surprised if this tactic might disadvantage them in another area of the same game.

    Yup, choosing to level all your roster to pad your GP, to help you and your guild is a tactical decision which you made and I would guess were happy with the extra rewards.

    In this game mode it doesn't give you an advantage, so it is swings and roundabouts
  • The other point that a lot of people seem to be missing is that none of the players who have padded their GP for TB purposes, or to satisfy their collector tendencies, is forced to continue to grow their roster in the same way. TW has been around for many months, which should have alerted some to the perils of indiscriminate upgrading of characters and ships. That said, I've seen some very selfish perspectives from some players around TW, with many happy to settle for 2nd place (loser) rewards and putting in minimum efforts. Those same players will find themselves struggling in GA. But they can fix it. If instead of fluffing the rest of their roster they focused all their gear and ability mats on a specific set of coherent teams they will build a formidable defensive and offensive roster for relatively little incremental GP. This will increase their strength and competitiveness.

    Many of the suggestions I see here will simply mask people's lack of understanding of the game - matching individuals based on their (lack of) ability to master the nuances will simply ensure the bad players stay bad, and don't realise how bad they are because they always play against other bad players. It's like school sports days all over again - no losers, everyone gets a medal, don't make anyone feel bad because they are fat/slow/lazy - but you also fail to reward those who try hard, stay fit and excel at something. If you do this in SWGoH too, what is the incentive for people to improve?
Sign In or Register to comment.