One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
Obviously they can't.
All they can see is whatever stats they connect from the game servers and any feedback they deign to read here.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
Obviously they can't.
All they can see is whatever stats they connect from the game servers and any feedback they deign to read here.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
So in this mega thread alone there’s 47 pages worth of feedback on what the players want. What the players, unanimously hate (the universal stacking mechanic), as well as other feedback.
I’m sorry but when the calls for change are this loud and this numerous, the time of “gathering data” is not nearly as extensive or as long as they think.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
They can’t even catch all the cheating that goes on...I highly doubt the can collect this kind of data. If they did, they should be able to shut down all the cheating rather quickly. They haven’t...so I am a little skeptical with all this “data gathering” that you say they do. It is probably some intern with a spreadsheet tracking all the guild points from completing the raid...then doing a few graphs in a PowerPoint presentation that no one listens to.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
They can’t even catch all the cheating that goes on...I highly doubt the can collect this kind of data. If they did, they should be able to shut down all the cheating rather quickly. They haven’t...so I am a little skeptical with all this “data gathering” that you say they do. It is probably some intern with a spreadsheet tracking all the guild points from completing the raid...then doing a few graphs in a PowerPoint presentation that no one listens to.
And those graphs (with no labelling whatsoever, just as CG likes it) will probably find themselves copy-pasted into the next State of the Galaxy post to show how we're actually all mistaken and the raid is actually enjoyable, just like they did back in the day to show us that the gear crunch has totally been alleviated
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
So in this mega thread alone there’s 47 pages worth of feedback on what the players want. What the players, unanimously hate (the universal stacking mechanic), as well as other feedback.
I’m sorry but when the calls for change are this loud and this numerous, the time of “gathering data” is not nearly as extensive or as long as they think.
Again, things dont move at the same pace as players would like. That doesnt mean they are not aware and discussing the situation on their end.
Also, let's not act like people were liking the Sith raid when it came out.
Things dont always change at the pace the players would like, but they are listening and looking at what's going on. It's just never as simple or straightforward as the player base thinks it is.
Again, how do you know this? As far as I'm aware, the only thing they've said about the raid since it's release is that corporate statement Doja posted that said a whole lot of nothing while completely ignoring any of the feedback around the level of coordination required.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that a hypothetical change would take time. It's the complete lack of acknowledgement combined with a history of CG only caring about "player engagement" and not player experience that frustrates me.
Remember back when relics were released, and there was an overwhelmingly negative response? But apparently, according to CG, it was all good because we were engaging with relics after they were released. Well obviously we needed to engage with relics, otherwise we'd fall behind everyone else! So I'm fully expecting that nothing will change with this raid because people will continue to "engage" with it to get relic 8 materials and avoid falling behind, and that's good enough for the devs.
Most of my comments on topics like this are a culmination of posts here, conversations with them, and history of what has happened in game.
They will always take time to look at and discuss where things are in soft issues, and that will take more time than hard issues like bugs ( Nikoms565 ). Yes things do not always change, but that doesnt mean it cant and ot doesnt mean they are not weighing things like player experience and feedback when they are discussing points.
Please let us know when it's not a culmination of things, but rather pertains to your conversations with them AND regarding the specific topic at hand. Believe me, you make this rarely clear which confuses many even more.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
They can’t even catch all the cheating that goes on...I highly doubt the can collect this kind of data. If they did, they should be able to shut down all the cheating rather quickly. They haven’t...so I am a little skeptical with all this “data gathering” that you say they do. It is probably some intern with a spreadsheet tracking all the guild points from completing the raid...then doing a few graphs in a PowerPoint presentation that no one listens to.
Go ahead and try to enter a run with out a connection. So it would seem that point is logged.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
So in this mega thread alone there’s 47 pages worth of feedback on what the players want. What the players, unanimously hate (the universal stacking mechanic), as well as other feedback.
I’m sorry but when the calls for change are this loud and this numerous, the time of “gathering data” is not nearly as extensive or as long as they think.
Again, things dont move at the same pace as players would like. That doesnt mean they are not aware and discussing the situation on their end.
Also, let's not act like people were liking the Sith raid when it came out.
Well from their responses so far they haven’t even acknowledged the fact that it’s not the difficulty but the rewards and the mechanics that is the issue. So if it’s as you say, they could at least say that they know what our issues are because up to this point only you have acknowledged it
Things dont always change at the pace the players would like, but they are listening and looking at what's going on. It's just never as simple or straightforward as the player base thinks it is.
Again, how do you know this? As far as I'm aware, the only thing they've said about the raid since it's release is that corporate statement Doja posted that said a whole lot of nothing while completely ignoring any of the feedback around the level of coordination required.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that a hypothetical change would take time. It's the complete lack of acknowledgement combined with a history of CG only caring about "player engagement" and not player experience that frustrates me.
Remember back when relics were released, and there was an overwhelmingly negative response? But apparently, according to CG, it was all good because we were engaging with relics after they were released. Well obviously we needed to engage with relics, otherwise we'd fall behind everyone else! So I'm fully expecting that nothing will change with this raid because people will continue to "engage" with it to get relic 8 materials and avoid falling behind, and that's good enough for the devs.
Most of my comments on topics like this are a culmination of posts here, conversations with them, and history of what has happened in game.
They will always take time to look at and discuss where things are in soft issues, and that will take more time than hard issues like bugs ( Nikoms565 ). Yes things do not always change, but that doesnt mean it cant and ot doesnt mean they are not weighing things like player experience and feedback when they are discussing points.
Please let us know when it's not a culmination of things, but rather pertains to your conversations with them AND regarding the specific topic at hand. Believe me, you make this rarely clear which confuses many even more.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
I didn't ask for directly quoting what they told you. What I'm saying is your opinion and deduction vs. what you actually know gets mixed. If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x) and what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this) that would be helpful. What's your personal deduction is not clear most of the times and causes an authority where it doesn't exist, it's even misleading at times. You can even allude to something that you know exactly, but can't tell, this is worlds apart from a hinge you have what they might be do as a result of your conversations.
i.e. right now I have no idea through your words if they are actively monitoring something(what?) about this raid which might cause an action.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
So in this mega thread alone there’s 47 pages worth of feedback on what the players want. What the players, unanimously hate (the universal stacking mechanic), as well as other feedback.
I’m sorry but when the calls for change are this loud and this numerous, the time of “gathering data” is not nearly as extensive or as long as they think.
Again, things dont move at the same pace as players would like. That doesnt mean they are not aware and discussing the situation on their end.
Also, let's not act like people were liking the Sith raid when it came out.
The fact that you keep comparing the concerns players and guilds have with this raid to previous content is part of the reason for the concern. The coordination needed for the ReRancor is nothing like previous content. I sat in - game holding damage for 30 minutes last night, only to be told to retreat and that we'd have to try tomorrow because we didn't have enough people on because some had some real life issues come up. My guild has had to "back out" in previous runs because I and others have an unexpected work commitment pop up. People in my guild can't participate in the raid because I have a meeting? That's ridiculous and horrible game design and terrible player experience. How does CG "track that data"?
How long does it take to "gather data" to realize that making 50 people dependant on each others work, school, commute, home, travel and family schedules coordination to allow them to play a mobile game is an awful mechanic?
And the tone--deaf response of "it's difficult" or the completely unrelated "people didn't like HSith either" is more concerning and frustrating than reassuring.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
So in this mega thread alone there’s 47 pages worth of feedback on what the players want. What the players, unanimously hate (the universal stacking mechanic), as well as other feedback.
I’m sorry but when the calls for change are this loud and this numerous, the time of “gathering data” is not nearly as extensive or as long as they think.
Again, things dont move at the same pace as players would like. That doesnt mean they are not aware and discussing the situation on their end.
Also, let's not act like people were liking the Sith raid when it came out.
The fact that you keep comparing the concerns players and guilds have with this raid to previous content is part of the reason for the concern. The coordination needed for the ReRancor is nothing like previous content. I sat in - game holding damage for 30 minutes last night, only to be told to retreat and that we'd have to try tomorrow because we didn't have enough people on because some had some real life issues come up. My guild has had to "back out" in previous runs because I and others have an unexpected work commitment pop up. People in my guild can't participate in the raid because I have a meeting? That's ridiculous and horrible game design and terrible player experience. How does CG "track that data"?
How long does it take to "gather data" to realize that making 50 people dependant on each others work, school, commute, home, travel and family schedules coordination to allow them to play a mobile game is an awful mechanic?
And the tone--deaf response of "it's difficult" or the completely unrelated "people didn't like HSith either" is more concerning and frustrating than reassuring.
I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I was merely pointing to similarities. I have not said its exactly like anything we have done before, I am saying that it is not "completely new/different" because its not, especially on some specific points.
The "they hate international guilds" or want them to break up, doesnt help and isnt constructive. Players leave guilds ever time new guild content is released. Guilds break up every time guild content is added.
There are similarities between old stuff and new stuff, as I was trying to point out.
How do they "track that"?, by having people post and tell them through feedback, like you are doing. They have many sources, and while they may not be aware of the hyper specific examples pointed to here, they seem to be aware of the goings on.
Again, no matter how long it takes, it will not be as quick as you or anyone else would like, but it doesnt mean they are not listening.
Currently as I have said, they seem to be aware of what's going on and looking at it from the perspective of "is this the player experience they want". And not saying this to be tone deaf, just because it carries meaning, the current setup is right around the mark for completion rate.
There are times I am just sharing information, this information has no feelings or caring, it's just information. It has no ears and therefore cannot hear tones. Judge it as you wish, but it is relevant to the situation, as it can help shape "your" feedback to be more constructive and be in tune with things they are already seeing, or avoid points that are not going to further the cause.
I will also say, that as a player I have done all of this and understand, I dont dare share my experiences, because there are some that take that as me saying what everyone else is experiencing. We are sharing the sentiments from everywhere as to what we see. It is early in this "situation" and they were away for the break so, yes things are not going to move as quickly as everyone wants, but it doesnt mean we should try to work together (without all the light bashing ), to try and make this better.
Things dont always change at the pace the players would like, but they are listening and looking at what's going on. It's just never as simple or straightforward as the player base thinks it is.
Again, how do you know this? As far as I'm aware, the only thing they've said about the raid since it's release is that corporate statement Doja posted that said a whole lot of nothing while completely ignoring any of the feedback around the level of coordination required.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that a hypothetical change would take time. It's the complete lack of acknowledgement combined with a history of CG only caring about "player engagement" and not player experience that frustrates me.
Remember back when relics were released, and there was an overwhelmingly negative response? But apparently, according to CG, it was all good because we were engaging with relics after they were released. Well obviously we needed to engage with relics, otherwise we'd fall behind everyone else! So I'm fully expecting that nothing will change with this raid because people will continue to "engage" with it to get relic 8 materials and avoid falling behind, and that's good enough for the devs.
Most of my comments on topics like this are a culmination of posts here, conversations with them, and history of what has happened in game.
They will always take time to look at and discuss where things are in soft issues, and that will take more time than hard issues like bugs ( Nikoms565 ). Yes things do not always change, but that doesnt mean it cant and ot doesnt mean they are not weighing things like player experience and feedback when they are discussing points.
Please let us know when it's not a culmination of things, but rather pertains to your conversations with them AND regarding the specific topic at hand. Believe me, you make this rarely clear which confuses many even more.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
I didn't ask for directly quoting what they told you. What I'm saying is your opinion and deduction vs. what you actually know gets mixed. If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x) and what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this) that would be helpful. What's your personal deduction is not clear most of the times and causes an authority where it doesn't exist, it's even misleading at times. You can even allude to something that you know exactly, but can't tell, this is worlds apart from a hinge you have what they might be do as a result of your conversations.
i.e. right now I have no idea through your words if they are actively monitoring something(what?) about this raid which might cause an action.
Maybe you can send me a direct message about what is misleading you in your example.
Because in my mind what you are saying it you want me to tell you exactly what they are doing:
If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x)
Which I cant really do, for NDA, or IDK reasons (I may know "things" are coming or changing, but not know exactly what those "things" are or have details on the final outcome).
And not to talk like this:
what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this)
Which is the only real way I feel ok representing things, because there may be details that I do know or have figured out that I cannot share and this allows me to plant seeds without directly stating anything.
If this is your issue, we may be at an impasse on that point.
I am unclear where you see an authority, and it doesnt exist, as I said maybe you can message me about this, and where I am being misleading.
I am pretty sure in my words I have said they are monitoring things around the raid, which makes me wonder why "if" is a question. As for "what", if you have feedback, please provide it.
@Kyno I really appreciate what you've been able to communicate to us from the devs this past week.
For my part, what would make me feel better in the meantime, is if CG gave us some date by which we could expect an official and substantial response on the concerns in this thread. Are we days, weeks, or months away? Are we even sure we'll ever get one?
I know you don't have that info, not asking you for it. Just saying it might pacify the mob (myself included) a bit if we had some official expectations to lean on.
Guild disruptions have been mentioned. My guild would rather not part ways with 3+ year members due to their work/family schedules. If we knew this mechanic was going to change, we could just wait it out. Guilds and the communities built within are the main thing that has kept me around through the downs of this game. If that community is undermined and fractured too much, people may just quit at the next outrage rather than bearing through it with their guild pals.
Again, thanks for the communication this week. And hopefully the above was constructive.
Kyno I really appreciate what you've been able to communicate to us from the devs this past week.
For my part, what would make me feel better in the meantime, is if CG gave us some date by which we could expect an official and substantial response on the concerns in this thread. Are we days, weeks, or months away? Are we even sure we'll ever get one?
I know you don't have that info, not asking you for it. Just saying it might pacify the mob (myself included) a bit if we had some official expectations to lean on.
Guild disruptions have been mentioned. My guild would rather not part ways with 3+ year members due to their work/family schedules. If we knew this mechanic was going to change, we could just wait it out. Guilds and the communities built within are the main thing that has kept me around through the downs of this game. If that community is undermined and fractured too much, people may just quit at the next outrage rather than bearing through it with their guild pals.
Again, thanks for the communication this week. And hopefully the above was constructive.
Being the weekend we cant further any thing at the moment, but will try to see where things are at next week.
The dismissal of the first response doesnt mean it didnt happen and that they are not going to look at that as a response when asked for another one, so if there is nothing new, at this moment, they are going to share on this topic, they may not respond further until there is more to say.
Things dont always change at the pace the players would like, but they are listening and looking at what's going on. It's just never as simple or straightforward as the player base thinks it is.
Again, how do you know this? As far as I'm aware, the only thing they've said about the raid since it's release is that corporate statement Doja posted that said a whole lot of nothing while completely ignoring any of the feedback around the level of coordination required.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that a hypothetical change would take time. It's the complete lack of acknowledgement combined with a history of CG only caring about "player engagement" and not player experience that frustrates me.
Remember back when relics were released, and there was an overwhelmingly negative response? But apparently, according to CG, it was all good because we were engaging with relics after they were released. Well obviously we needed to engage with relics, otherwise we'd fall behind everyone else! So I'm fully expecting that nothing will change with this raid because people will continue to "engage" with it to get relic 8 materials and avoid falling behind, and that's good enough for the devs.
Most of my comments on topics like this are a culmination of posts here, conversations with them, and history of what has happened in game.
They will always take time to look at and discuss where things are in soft issues, and that will take more time than hard issues like bugs ( Nikoms565 ). Yes things do not always change, but that doesnt mean it cant and ot doesnt mean they are not weighing things like player experience and feedback when they are discussing points.
Please let us know when it's not a culmination of things, but rather pertains to your conversations with them AND regarding the specific topic at hand. Believe me, you make this rarely clear which confuses many even more.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
I didn't ask for directly quoting what they told you. What I'm saying is your opinion and deduction vs. what you actually know gets mixed. If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x) and what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this) that would be helpful. What's your personal deduction is not clear most of the times and causes an authority where it doesn't exist, it's even misleading at times. You can even allude to something that you know exactly, but can't tell, this is worlds apart from a hinge you have what they might be do as a result of your conversations.
i.e. right now I have no idea through your words if they are actively monitoring something(what?) about this raid which might cause an action.
Maybe you can send me a direct message about what is misleading you in your example.
Because in my mind what you are saying it you want me to tell you exactly what they are doing:
If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x)
Which I cant really do, for NDA, or IDK reasons (I may know "things" are coming or changing, but not know exactly what those "things" are or have details on the final outcome).
And not to talk like this:
what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this)
Which is the only real way I feel ok representing things, because there may be details that I do know or have figured out that I cannot share and this allows me to plant seeds without directly stating anything.
If this is your issue, we may be at an impasse on that point.
I am unclear where you see an authority, and it doesnt exist, as I said maybe you can message me about this, and where I am being misleading.
I am pretty sure in my words I have said they are monitoring things around the raid, which makes me wonder why "if" is a question. As for "what", if you have feedback, please provide it.
You keep saying guilds break up every time guild content is released. Do you think that is CGs intention or that it's good for the game?
I understand why you put the extra offense and speed into the raid. So noone can solo it! Ok, ok we get it but to have these mechanicsin in P4 is absolutely stupid. My guild has beat it now 5 times in a row but these p4 mechanics make no sense. There's no strategy no planing its utterly ridiculous other then the first 60% the rest is just throw your whole roster and hopefully someone will get 1 hit in! Its not exciting its not fun and lacks everything a raid should be! Just take out the P4 mechanics and it will be somewhat decent
Kyno I really appreciate what you've been able to communicate to us from the devs this past week.
For my part, what would make me feel better in the meantime, is if CG gave us some date by which we could expect an official and substantial response on the concerns in this thread. Are we days, weeks, or months away? Are we even sure we'll ever get one?
I know you don't have that info, not asking you for it. Just saying it might pacify the mob (myself included) a bit if we had some official expectations to lean on.
Guild disruptions have been mentioned. My guild would rather not part ways with 3+ year members due to their work/family schedules. If we knew this mechanic was going to change, we could just wait it out. Guilds and the communities built within are the main thing that has kept me around through the downs of this game. If that community is undermined and fractured too much, people may just quit at the next outrage rather than bearing through it with their guild pals.
Again, thanks for the communication this week. And hopefully the above was constructive.
Being the weekend we cant further any thing at the moment, but will try to see where things are at next week.
The dismissal of the first response doesnt mean it didnt happen and that they are not going to look at that as a response when asked for another one, so if there is nothing new, at this moment, they are going to share on this topic, they may not respond further until there is more to say.
Did they put out a response? Of course they did.
Did it address or even acknowledge the bulk of our feedback? Nope.
No one is pretending that the first response didn't happen. But if they think that response was adequate and there's nothing more to say, then they're more out of touch than I thought.
Things dont always change at the pace the players would like, but they are listening and looking at what's going on. It's just never as simple or straightforward as the player base thinks it is.
Again, how do you know this? As far as I'm aware, the only thing they've said about the raid since it's release is that corporate statement Doja posted that said a whole lot of nothing while completely ignoring any of the feedback around the level of coordination required.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that a hypothetical change would take time. It's the complete lack of acknowledgement combined with a history of CG only caring about "player engagement" and not player experience that frustrates me.
Remember back when relics were released, and there was an overwhelmingly negative response? But apparently, according to CG, it was all good because we were engaging with relics after they were released. Well obviously we needed to engage with relics, otherwise we'd fall behind everyone else! So I'm fully expecting that nothing will change with this raid because people will continue to "engage" with it to get relic 8 materials and avoid falling behind, and that's good enough for the devs.
Most of my comments on topics like this are a culmination of posts here, conversations with them, and history of what has happened in game.
They will always take time to look at and discuss where things are in soft issues, and that will take more time than hard issues like bugs ( Nikoms565 ). Yes things do not always change, but that doesnt mean it cant and ot doesnt mean they are not weighing things like player experience and feedback when they are discussing points.
Please let us know when it's not a culmination of things, but rather pertains to your conversations with them AND regarding the specific topic at hand. Believe me, you make this rarely clear which confuses many even more.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
I didn't ask for directly quoting what they told you. What I'm saying is your opinion and deduction vs. what you actually know gets mixed. If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x) and what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this) that would be helpful. What's your personal deduction is not clear most of the times and causes an authority where it doesn't exist, it's even misleading at times. You can even allude to something that you know exactly, but can't tell, this is worlds apart from a hinge you have what they might be do as a result of your conversations.
i.e. right now I have no idea through your words if they are actively monitoring something(what?) about this raid which might cause an action.
Maybe you can send me a direct message about what is misleading you in your example.
Because in my mind what you are saying it you want me to tell you exactly what they are doing:
If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x)
Which I cant really do, for NDA, or IDK reasons (I may know "things" are coming or changing, but not know exactly what those "things" are or have details on the final outcome).
And not to talk like this:
what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this)
Which is the only real way I feel ok representing things, because there may be details that I do know or have figured out that I cannot share and this allows me to plant seeds without directly stating anything.
If this is your issue, we may be at an impasse on that point.
I am unclear where you see an authority, and it doesnt exist, as I said maybe you can message me about this, and where I am being misleading.
I am pretty sure in my words I have said they are monitoring things around the raid, which makes me wonder why "if" is a question. As for "what", if you have feedback, please provide it.
You keep saying guilds break up every time guild content is released. Do you think that is CGs intention or that it's good for the game?
No this is not a direct intention, but they are aware it is going to happen.
It will happen regardless of whether it is good for the game or not, so while I cannot speak to their thoughts on that directly. I would assume they dont try to directly control things they cannot control.
One thing I’m struggling to grasp here is how on Earth the devs can “monitor” the extent of the coordination, when it is all happening outwith the game?
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
So in this mega thread alone there’s 47 pages worth of feedback on what the players want. What the players, unanimously hate (the universal stacking mechanic), as well as other feedback.
I’m sorry but when the calls for change are this loud and this numerous, the time of “gathering data” is not nearly as extensive or as long as they think.
Again, things dont move at the same pace as players would like. That doesnt mean they are not aware and discussing the situation on their end.
Also, let's not act like people were liking the Sith raid when it came out.
The fact that you keep comparing the concerns players and guilds have with this raid to previous content is part of the reason for the concern. The coordination needed for the ReRancor is nothing like previous content. I sat in - game holding damage for 30 minutes last night, only to be told to retreat and that we'd have to try tomorrow because we didn't have enough people on because some had some real life issues come up. My guild has had to "back out" in previous runs because I and others have an unexpected work commitment pop up. People in my guild can't participate in the raid because I have a meeting? That's ridiculous and horrible game design and terrible player experience. How does CG "track that data"?
How long does it take to "gather data" to realize that making 50 people dependant on each others work, school, commute, home, travel and family schedules coordination to allow them to play a mobile game is an awful mechanic?
And the tone--deaf response of "it's difficult" or the completely unrelated "people didn't like HSith either" is more concerning and frustrating than reassuring.
I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I was merely pointing to similarities. I have not said its exactly like anything we have done before, I am saying that it is not "completely new/different" because its not, especially on some specific points.
The "they hate international guilds" or want them to break up, doesnt help and isnt constructive. Players leave guilds ever time new guild content is released. Guilds break up every time guild content is added.
There are similarities between old stuff and new stuff, as I was trying to point out.
The key point though, is that for the first time, guilds breaking up, and the inability to complete a game mode, has NOTHING to do with anything game related.
My friends in Australia, Japan, Ukraine, etc have the rosters and ability easily beat the new raid.
There's no precedent for justification. Until we can join the Rancor, lose, but still get half the rewards, TW comparisons don't work.
We can pick out specific aspects that are "almost" similar to previous experiences, but they are still 100% irrelevant to the main point. This being similar as previous stuff doesn't magically allow my guild where at least 30 of us have been together for 3 years to be able to log on and do damage at the same time.
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
Things dont always change at the pace the players would like, but they are listening and looking at what's going on. It's just never as simple or straightforward as the player base thinks it is.
Again, how do you know this? As far as I'm aware, the only thing they've said about the raid since it's release is that corporate statement Doja posted that said a whole lot of nothing while completely ignoring any of the feedback around the level of coordination required.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that a hypothetical change would take time. It's the complete lack of acknowledgement combined with a history of CG only caring about "player engagement" and not player experience that frustrates me.
Remember back when relics were released, and there was an overwhelmingly negative response? But apparently, according to CG, it was all good because we were engaging with relics after they were released. Well obviously we needed to engage with relics, otherwise we'd fall behind everyone else! So I'm fully expecting that nothing will change with this raid because people will continue to "engage" with it to get relic 8 materials and avoid falling behind, and that's good enough for the devs.
Most of my comments on topics like this are a culmination of posts here, conversations with them, and history of what has happened in game.
They will always take time to look at and discuss where things are in soft issues, and that will take more time than hard issues like bugs ( Nikoms565 ). Yes things do not always change, but that doesnt mean it cant and ot doesnt mean they are not weighing things like player experience and feedback when they are discussing points.
Please let us know when it's not a culmination of things, but rather pertains to your conversations with them AND regarding the specific topic at hand. Believe me, you make this rarely clear which confuses many even more.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
I didn't ask for directly quoting what they told you. What I'm saying is your opinion and deduction vs. what you actually know gets mixed. If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x) and what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this) that would be helpful. What's your personal deduction is not clear most of the times and causes an authority where it doesn't exist, it's even misleading at times. You can even allude to something that you know exactly, but can't tell, this is worlds apart from a hinge you have what they might be do as a result of your conversations.
i.e. right now I have no idea through your words if they are actively monitoring something(what?) about this raid which might cause an action.
Maybe you can send me a direct message about what is misleading you in your example.
Because in my mind what you are saying it you want me to tell you exactly what they are doing:
If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x)
Which I cant really do, for NDA, or IDK reasons (I may know "things" are coming or changing, but not know exactly what those "things" are or have details on the final outcome).
And not to talk like this:
what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this)
Which is the only real way I feel ok representing things, because there may be details that I do know or have figured out that I cannot share and this allows me to plant seeds without directly stating anything.
If this is your issue, we may be at an impasse on that point.
I am unclear where you see an authority, and it doesnt exist, as I said maybe you can message me about this, and where I am being misleading.
I am pretty sure in my words I have said they are monitoring things around the raid, which makes me wonder why "if" is a question. As for "what", if you have feedback, please provide it.
You keep saying guilds break up every time guild content is released. Do you think that is CGs intention or that it's good for the game?
No this is not a direct intention, but they are aware it is going to happen.
It will happen regardless of whether it is good for the game or not, so while I cannot speak to their thoughts on that directly. I would assume they dont try to directly control things they cannot control.
I would think they would try to learn from past issues that that they introduced through new guild content which caused guilds to break up. I see a lot of posts that indicate that their guild is the primary reason people keep playing the game. Disrupting that seems counter intuitive to growth and game stability.
I think one of the issues with this level of coordination being needed is that it goes against everything the game has thus far stood for.
Up until now, you had to have the roster to beat end game content but could time it at a time that is convenient to your real life schedule. (Ex each phase of tb, tw, gac, events lasting at least 24hrs).
That is a model that works well for mobile games
The community is up in arms over this because it was completely out of left field from what we've come to expect.
At the very least we deserve an explanation as to why they thought this particular path was a good idea. And whether future game modes will also require mmo level coordination. That way players can decide of this game will be for them going forward.
And this isn't an answer that we should have to wait months for. This is a question they can answer now.
Things dont always change at the pace the players would like, but they are listening and looking at what's going on. It's just never as simple or straightforward as the player base thinks it is.
Again, how do you know this? As far as I'm aware, the only thing they've said about the raid since it's release is that corporate statement Doja posted that said a whole lot of nothing while completely ignoring any of the feedback around the level of coordination required.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that a hypothetical change would take time. It's the complete lack of acknowledgement combined with a history of CG only caring about "player engagement" and not player experience that frustrates me.
Remember back when relics were released, and there was an overwhelmingly negative response? But apparently, according to CG, it was all good because we were engaging with relics after they were released. Well obviously we needed to engage with relics, otherwise we'd fall behind everyone else! So I'm fully expecting that nothing will change with this raid because people will continue to "engage" with it to get relic 8 materials and avoid falling behind, and that's good enough for the devs.
Most of my comments on topics like this are a culmination of posts here, conversations with them, and history of what has happened in game.
They will always take time to look at and discuss where things are in soft issues, and that will take more time than hard issues like bugs ( Nikoms565 ). Yes things do not always change, but that doesnt mean it cant and ot doesnt mean they are not weighing things like player experience and feedback when they are discussing points.
Please let us know when it's not a culmination of things, but rather pertains to your conversations with them AND regarding the specific topic at hand. Believe me, you make this rarely clear which confuses many even more.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
I didn't ask for directly quoting what they told you. What I'm saying is your opinion and deduction vs. what you actually know gets mixed. If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x) and what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this) that would be helpful. What's your personal deduction is not clear most of the times and causes an authority where it doesn't exist, it's even misleading at times. You can even allude to something that you know exactly, but can't tell, this is worlds apart from a hinge you have what they might be do as a result of your conversations.
i.e. right now I have no idea through your words if they are actively monitoring something(what?) about this raid which might cause an action.
Maybe you can send me a direct message about what is misleading you in your example.
Because in my mind what you are saying it you want me to tell you exactly what they are doing:
If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x)
Which I cant really do, for NDA, or IDK reasons (I may know "things" are coming or changing, but not know exactly what those "things" are or have details on the final outcome).
And not to talk like this:
what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this)
Which is the only real way I feel ok representing things, because there may be details that I do know or have figured out that I cannot share and this allows me to plant seeds without directly stating anything.
If this is your issue, we may be at an impasse on that point.
I am unclear where you see an authority, and it doesnt exist, as I said maybe you can message me about this, and where I am being misleading.
I am pretty sure in my words I have said they are monitoring things around the raid, which makes me wonder why "if" is a question. As for "what", if you have feedback, please provide it.
You keep saying guilds break up every time guild content is released. Do you think that is CGs intention or that it's good for the game?
No this is not a direct intention, but they are aware it is going to happen.
It will happen regardless of whether it is good for the game or not, so while I cannot speak to their thoughts on that directly. I would assume they dont try to directly control things they cannot control.
Wait so just because it will happen regardless, they won't do anything to try to make it happen less often? Or try to make mechanics that don't actively encourage the breaking up of guilds? Saying that they can't control it is a load of nonsense, if they didn't create this "damage ramping up every 20%" mechanic then there wouldn't be all these coordination issues that are making guilds break up. Would guilds still break up for other reasons? Maybe. But this mechanic is directly contributing to the problem.
Replies
How on Earth would they know how many discord messages / tags and DMs are being generated by this stacking 20% mechanic?
All they can see is whatever stats they connect from the game servers and any feedback they deign to read here.
How can they keep an eye on the player experience if they’re not privy to any of the coordination that goes on to take this monster down?
They can get feedback from many sources, and I would believe they would have data on when a run starts vs ends. This kind of information could help them gauge what's going on and to what extent.
So in this mega thread alone there’s 47 pages worth of feedback on what the players want. What the players, unanimously hate (the universal stacking mechanic), as well as other feedback.
I’m sorry but when the calls for change are this loud and this numerous, the time of “gathering data” is not nearly as extensive or as long as they think.
They can’t even catch all the cheating that goes on...I highly doubt the can collect this kind of data. If they did, they should be able to shut down all the cheating rather quickly. They haven’t...so I am a little skeptical with all this “data gathering” that you say they do. It is probably some intern with a spreadsheet tracking all the guild points from completing the raid...then doing a few graphs in a PowerPoint presentation that no one listens to.
And those graphs (with no labelling whatsoever, just as CG likes it) will probably find themselves copy-pasted into the next State of the Galaxy post to show how we're actually all mistaken and the raid is actually enjoyable, just like they did back in the day to show us that the gear crunch has totally been alleviated
More rewards like this x2
Good point. They should definitely spread those rewards throughout the top 10 instead of the top 5, and continue to flatten the bottom 40 as well.
Again, things dont move at the same pace as players would like. That doesnt mean they are not aware and discussing the situation on their end.
Also, let's not act like people were liking the Sith raid when it came out.
That's not really the way this works, I cannot really say they told me X. When I talk it is always going to be a culmination of those things, as that is the only way I can represent the knowledge I may have or the feelings I get from conversations with them. Sorry for your confusion.
Go ahead and try to enter a run with out a connection. So it would seem that point is logged.
Uhh... sure.
Well from their responses so far they haven’t even acknowledged the fact that it’s not the difficulty but the rewards and the mechanics that is the issue. So if it’s as you say, they could at least say that they know what our issues are because up to this point only you have acknowledged it
I didn't ask for directly quoting what they told you. What I'm saying is your opinion and deduction vs. what you actually know gets mixed. If you can seperate what you factually know (they are doing x) and what you think that might result in or why that is (we might expect y out of this) that would be helpful. What's your personal deduction is not clear most of the times and causes an authority where it doesn't exist, it's even misleading at times. You can even allude to something that you know exactly, but can't tell, this is worlds apart from a hinge you have what they might be do as a result of your conversations.
i.e. right now I have no idea through your words if they are actively monitoring something(what?) about this raid which might cause an action.
The fact that you keep comparing the concerns players and guilds have with this raid to previous content is part of the reason for the concern. The coordination needed for the ReRancor is nothing like previous content. I sat in - game holding damage for 30 minutes last night, only to be told to retreat and that we'd have to try tomorrow because we didn't have enough people on because some had some real life issues come up. My guild has had to "back out" in previous runs because I and others have an unexpected work commitment pop up. People in my guild can't participate in the raid because I have a meeting? That's ridiculous and horrible game design and terrible player experience. How does CG "track that data"?
How long does it take to "gather data" to realize that making 50 people dependant on each others work, school, commute, home, travel and family schedules coordination to allow them to play a mobile game is an awful mechanic?
And the tone--deaf response of "it's difficult" or the completely unrelated "people didn't like HSith either" is more concerning and frustrating than reassuring.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I was merely pointing to similarities. I have not said its exactly like anything we have done before, I am saying that it is not "completely new/different" because its not, especially on some specific points.
The "they hate international guilds" or want them to break up, doesnt help and isnt constructive. Players leave guilds ever time new guild content is released. Guilds break up every time guild content is added.
There are similarities between old stuff and new stuff, as I was trying to point out.
How do they "track that"?, by having people post and tell them through feedback, like you are doing. They have many sources, and while they may not be aware of the hyper specific examples pointed to here, they seem to be aware of the goings on.
Again, no matter how long it takes, it will not be as quick as you or anyone else would like, but it doesnt mean they are not listening.
Currently as I have said, they seem to be aware of what's going on and looking at it from the perspective of "is this the player experience they want". And not saying this to be tone deaf, just because it carries meaning, the current setup is right around the mark for completion rate.
There are times I am just sharing information, this information has no feelings or caring, it's just information. It has no ears and therefore cannot hear tones. Judge it as you wish, but it is relevant to the situation, as it can help shape "your" feedback to be more constructive and be in tune with things they are already seeing, or avoid points that are not going to further the cause.
I will also say, that as a player I have done all of this and understand, I dont dare share my experiences, because there are some that take that as me saying what everyone else is experiencing. We are sharing the sentiments from everywhere as to what we see. It is early in this "situation" and they were away for the break so, yes things are not going to move as quickly as everyone wants, but it doesnt mean we should try to work together (without all the light bashing ), to try and make this better.
Maybe you can send me a direct message about what is misleading you in your example.
Because in my mind what you are saying it you want me to tell you exactly what they are doing:
Which I cant really do, for NDA, or IDK reasons (I may know "things" are coming or changing, but not know exactly what those "things" are or have details on the final outcome).
And not to talk like this:
Which is the only real way I feel ok representing things, because there may be details that I do know or have figured out that I cannot share and this allows me to plant seeds without directly stating anything.
If this is your issue, we may be at an impasse on that point.
I am unclear where you see an authority, and it doesnt exist, as I said maybe you can message me about this, and where I am being misleading.
I am pretty sure in my words I have said they are monitoring things around the raid, which makes me wonder why "if" is a question. As for "what", if you have feedback, please provide it.
For my part, what would make me feel better in the meantime, is if CG gave us some date by which we could expect an official and substantial response on the concerns in this thread. Are we days, weeks, or months away? Are we even sure we'll ever get one?
I know you don't have that info, not asking you for it. Just saying it might pacify the mob (myself included) a bit if we had some official expectations to lean on.
Guild disruptions have been mentioned. My guild would rather not part ways with 3+ year members due to their work/family schedules. If we knew this mechanic was going to change, we could just wait it out. Guilds and the communities built within are the main thing that has kept me around through the downs of this game. If that community is undermined and fractured too much, people may just quit at the next outrage rather than bearing through it with their guild pals.
Again, thanks for the communication this week. And hopefully the above was constructive.
Being the weekend we cant further any thing at the moment, but will try to see where things are at next week.
The dismissal of the first response doesnt mean it didnt happen and that they are not going to look at that as a response when asked for another one, so if there is nothing new, at this moment, they are going to share on this topic, they may not respond further until there is more to say.
You keep saying guilds break up every time guild content is released. Do you think that is CGs intention or that it's good for the game?
Did they put out a response? Of course they did.
Did it address or even acknowledge the bulk of our feedback? Nope.
No one is pretending that the first response didn't happen. But if they think that response was adequate and there's nothing more to say, then they're more out of touch than I thought.
No this is not a direct intention, but they are aware it is going to happen.
It will happen regardless of whether it is good for the game or not, so while I cannot speak to their thoughts on that directly. I would assume they dont try to directly control things they cannot control.
The key point though, is that for the first time, guilds breaking up, and the inability to complete a game mode, has NOTHING to do with anything game related.
My friends in Australia, Japan, Ukraine, etc have the rosters and ability easily beat the new raid.
There's no precedent for justification. Until we can join the Rancor, lose, but still get half the rewards, TW comparisons don't work.
We can pick out specific aspects that are "almost" similar to previous experiences, but they are still 100% irrelevant to the main point. This being similar as previous stuff doesn't magically allow my guild where at least 30 of us have been together for 3 years to be able to log on and do damage at the same time.
I would think they would try to learn from past issues that that they introduced through new guild content which caused guilds to break up. I see a lot of posts that indicate that their guild is the primary reason people keep playing the game. Disrupting that seems counter intuitive to growth and game stability.
Up until now, you had to have the roster to beat end game content but could time it at a time that is convenient to your real life schedule. (Ex each phase of tb, tw, gac, events lasting at least 24hrs).
That is a model that works well for mobile games
The community is up in arms over this because it was completely out of left field from what we've come to expect.
At the very least we deserve an explanation as to why they thought this particular path was a good idea. And whether future game modes will also require mmo level coordination. That way players can decide of this game will be for them going forward.
And this isn't an answer that we should have to wait months for. This is a question they can answer now.
Wait so just because it will happen regardless, they won't do anything to try to make it happen less often? Or try to make mechanics that don't actively encourage the breaking up of guilds? Saying that they can't control it is a load of nonsense, if they didn't create this "damage ramping up every 20%" mechanic then there wouldn't be all these coordination issues that are making guilds break up. Would guilds still break up for other reasons? Maybe. But this mechanic is directly contributing to the problem.