I know it will be an unpopular opinon but, I realy like this change. This is the end for the shardchats finally. I realy hate THAT system where 30-40 people decided who will be the top 5 all day, and if they don't liked you bye bye not a chance to be in the top 100. They just gonna **** you 0/24 even out of their payout time just to stop you to get anything. /and before I will be called salty, yes I was invited to the shard but I turned them down after all the "invitation" was an ultimate "YoU do WhAt wE saY or ElSe". So I'm laughing and cheering for this change. Plus side also, I not have to be in front of my mobile for 1 hour in given time frame, I got a full day. Overeal I will be more in the plus side. I guess the shard chat players not like this but they abused the system since day 1 sooo it's over for them. One big like for this change I really like this
Ironically, most of my guildmates shard mafias and mine as well were very very open to new players. We had over 100 people in our SA chard chat and players would collaborate together when they had the same PO and one would take 1st and the other would take 2nd and they would swap positions every day.
Just because you had a negative experience doesn't mean that it was like this all over. Id argue that most shard mafias were very open and would always allow players to join in on the fun.
This was for both my SA shard chat and also my FA shard chat. Both have incredible communities and toxic player behavior was severely frowned upon.
There should be some chats what you mention what are open and welcoming, but the coin has two side and there are some what is really strict and abuse it's power. If I recall well one the youtuber also made a video about it. And hell I even know peoples who are in these kind of chats, and there is everything between them. So the more common for me are the not so freindly ones. Plus there are players like me, I want to be on the top not out of compromise but with skill and with determination. I was also invited to F.A and turned them down also and after that for about 6 months I just went a little bit crazy asap multiple refreshes etc I not gained much but it was satisfying. I was able reach top 1 multiple times. After that life happend and I had not so much free time to do my shenanigans. So I'm happy that I can do it with this new change and it will be a 1v1 not a 1v10 easier life but not with negotiation skills / not so great also not terrible / and not out of compromise when I could get 1-5 place. It's more exciting for me. And also just I told it's unpopular opinon but I feel happy about it that shard time over. Sorry not sorry . /maybe I sent this reply twice the first one went into the abys/
I think this change is terrible for f2p and low spending players that wanted to compete for top leaderboard spots. Personally, I liked GAC because it gave me the chance to top the leaderboard solely on the basis of skill. If it weren't for that competition, I probably would have quit playing some time ago. I'll give the new GAC a try, but I have a feeling that I'll climb for awhile, and then get blocked by a wall of whales with 6 GLs (to my 3) and hundreds more relic levels - or maybe I'll get blocked earlier than that. If you're essentially throwing the entire playerbase into one big ladder, and removing any mechanism to prevent massive roster disparities, then the main factor in the "skill rating" (especially near the top) is going to be wallet size, and the very top of the leaderboard is going to be the exclusive playground of megawhales.
My crystal income may be fine, but crystals aren't what makes the game fun, or what motivates me to play. I see them as a means to an end. For me, that end goal has been shaping my roster to be GAC competitive. The previous matchmaking system may have had some issues, but I can think of plenty of potential ways to shore those up. Instead, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I think the idea that the GAC is the main source of income from crystals is great, but the implementation is very poor. Why not just leave the old system and distribute the crystals there?
Then everyone had the chance to get maximum crystals, no matter when he started the game. Now the maximum crystals are exclusive for high end players. It doesn't matter if the average player gets more crystals now, if the bigger players get even more crystals. If your boss gives you a $100 raise and the others get a $300 raise, you're not happy either.
The GAC mode was always very exciting and every time new interesting. I have often reached a top 10 place in kyber. Now when I do 2-3 rounds successfully I get matched against people who have 1 million GP and 2 GLs more? Congratulations, fun looks different.
Because the old/current system is terrible. Your ranking can only be optimized by chasing ridiculous feats. Your round scores are very dependent on your opponent's strategy. And the MM is too easily manipulated.
While I don’t disagree with your assessment of the “old system”, I do not share your optimism about new matchmaking. Also after a bit of time, most people will end up staying in a League due to reaching the cap of their GP/roster/skill/activity combination. This new system will end up having a stratification of GP-based rewards and the top will simply continue to run away from the bottom (surely with some outliers) due to being ahead already.
I share those concerns. My optimism is because I loathe SA and the current GAC system, not because I think the changes will be perfect.
I think the idea that the GAC is the main source of income from crystals is great, but the implementation is very poor. Why not just leave the old system and distribute the crystals there?
Then everyone had the chance to get maximum crystals, no matter when he started the game. Now the maximum crystals are exclusive for high end players. It doesn't matter if the average player gets more crystals now, if the bigger players get even more crystals. If your boss gives you a $100 raise and the others get a $300 raise, you're not happy either.
The GAC mode was always very exciting and every time new interesting. I have often reached a top 10 place in kyber. Now when I do 2-3 rounds successfully I get matched against people who have 1 million GP and 2 GLs more? Congratulations, fun looks different.
Because the old/current system is terrible. Your ranking can only be optimized by chasing ridiculous feats. Your round scores are very dependent on your opponent's strategy. And the MM is too easily manipulated.
I agree with you that a lot of things were bad with the old matchmaking. Still, it would have been a better solution to keep the division and make the matchmaking within the division a bit more W/L oriented and get rid of the unnecessary feats.
You make a lot of assumptions about record required for promotion/demotion as well as the gap between A1 and K5. Let's put that aside for a moment.
Dude. The number of contestant during a single season is fixed. There is no draw in GAC, the binomial distribution applies here by definition. This will result in a Gaussian, again, by definition MOST of the players will score 6/6 in ALL leauges. Go do the math for yourself if you dont believe me.
And when it comes to the back-and-forth thingie:
The whole system is pretty much static or will become after few steps of iteration. Simply because there is no entrypoint for newer players here. They will always start at the bottom, you cannot create a 6M account out of thin air. If you give it a thought or two, it is pretty reasonable to assume that the top of A1 will substitute the bottom of K5 when it comes to the masses over and over again. Certain individuals might escape this loop, I am not saying it is impossible, and at the end of the day the human factor indeed does have an effect on your performance, so you might outdo your own self, or underperform for whatever reason. There are 2 factors that can break this by nature: spending money, and finishing all content, and capping everyone at the top. The second is pretty unlikely to happen.
Well, okay. But so does HSTR or you get terrible rewards. So does Galactic Challenge, which will allow you 2nd best rewards every week with a single GL, but will not guarantee you that with 0 GL. This isn't even mentioning LS Geo TB.
There are plenty of reasons to get a GL, and with the RPS meta you can pick from several (at the very least LV, JML, SEE, and GLOW). So, sure, you can say that for early game players SA might force a GL effort earlier than the player would otherwise choose it, but it also might not. In a lower-gp guild having the only (or one of the only) SLKRs gives you a **massive** boost to the amount of g12 gear you soak up, which means you progress much more quickly by prioritizing a GL than by prioritizing anything else, even GAC-priority squads in a game where GAC's crystal flow has started.
I will likely have all the crystals that I used to have, and with minimal effort, though I hate GAC and will be unlikely to stay in the highest division because of that (it's likely Kyber-2 for me). That's my choice and though I'm not happy about it, it's not what most worries me.
No, it's the fact that newer accounts will now be competing directly against older accounts that makes things so dangerous. The facts around whether GAC constrains choices more than Squad Arena (I think it clearly does, but it's not something for which either of us would have conclusive data) are interesting, but I only brought it up because someone else had said that SA constrains player choice without any acknowledgement that even if it forces you to build a specific team, once you have one single team done, you're on to whatever you want for a good long while. With GAC's priority on multiple GL's to block progress with specific required counter-squads (that have been nerfed and are now less reliable), things become much more grindy in GAC than in SA with its "one team & you're good to go!" requirement. So having refuted (or at least complicated) the simple narrative that SA constrains player choice, I'm much more interested in talking about other things that are actually problems with or benefits of the new system, rather than things that are exactly as good or as bad about SA or GAC no matter whether the current system or the recently proposed system is in use.
So looking at yours and Helmet’s responses this seems a tad more clear.
The way I see it now is that you need to spruce up that GP to max out those rewards.
So with these changes….
Those in newer shards no longer have access to the immediate 500-200 crystals per day to hoard and empower your roster. Now it’s in GAC so that income is reduced. Ok point taken.
So what they’re doing is trimming the crystal income for newer players trying to induce spending. I think older/heavier accouns will see short term (at the least) in terms of crystals, even after the matchmaking sorts itself out.
Hmmm this is getting deeper the more it’s discussed. I dig it lol
Trimming the income of the top of the shard on new players, yes. Increasing the PO most new players will see, also yes.
Newer shards are going to be bigger and more active. Anyone outside of the top 50-100 has a chance at an increased income, and possibly more depending on refreshes due to activity.
Anyone outside of the top 100 already could get increased income. Typically all it takes to be in the top 100 was to actually farm a good team and actually do your battles. Quit treating everyone that was below the top 100 as if they were some sort of victim.
Yes, they will likely benefit from this. But punishing your most active players to even out the income probably won't bode well for the long term health of the game.
There in lies the problem, "most active" does not mean top payout. Stale shards and shard chats actually allow players to get a higher income with less activity.
The info we say in our discussion was actually showing that after 1-2 years movement in shards regardless of GP or when they were started, were pretty static.
I can only speak for my experience, but this is what happened to me. The only time I bother fighting to win is when GAC is active with a Win X Squad Arena Battles feat. Otherwise I take my 101-200 place rewards because why bother if I’m just going to be work my **** off every day for the 100th place reward and then get yelled at because that slot belongs to someone’s friend of a friend?
Lol who has 100 people in the same hour in their shard.
Well, okay. But so does HSTR or you get terrible rewards. So does Galactic Challenge, which will allow you 2nd best rewards every week with a single GL, but will not guarantee you that with 0 GL. This isn't even mentioning LS Geo TB.
There are plenty of reasons to get a GL, and with the RPS meta you can pick from several (at the very least LV, JML, SEE, and GLOW). So, sure, you can say that for early game players SA might force a GL effort earlier than the player would otherwise choose it, but it also might not. In a lower-gp guild having the only (or one of the only) SLKRs gives you a **massive** boost to the amount of g12 gear you soak up, which means you progress much more quickly by prioritizing a GL than by prioritizing anything else, even GAC-priority squads in a game where GAC's crystal flow has started.
I will likely have all the crystals that I used to have, and with minimal effort, though I hate GAC and will be unlikely to stay in the highest division because of that (it's likely Kyber-2 for me). That's my choice and though I'm not happy about it, it's not what most worries me.
No, it's the fact that newer accounts will now be competing directly against older accounts that makes things so dangerous. The facts around whether GAC constrains choices more than Squad Arena (I think it clearly does, but it's not something for which either of us would have conclusive data) are interesting, but I only brought it up because someone else had said that SA constrains player choice without any acknowledgement that even if it forces you to build a specific team, once you have one single team done, you're on to whatever you want for a good long while. With GAC's priority on multiple GL's to block progress with specific required counter-squads (that have been nerfed and are now less reliable), things become much more grindy in GAC than in SA with its "one team & you're good to go!" requirement. So having refuted (or at least complicated) the simple narrative that SA constrains player choice, I'm much more interested in talking about other things that are actually problems with or benefits of the new system, rather than things that are exactly as good or as bad about SA or GAC no matter whether the current system or the recently proposed system is in use.
So looking at yours and Helmet’s responses this seems a tad more clear.
The way I see it now is that you need to spruce up that GP to max out those rewards.
So with these changes….
Those in newer shards no longer have access to the immediate 500-200 crystals per day to hoard and empower your roster. Now it’s in GAC so that income is reduced. Ok point taken.
So what they’re doing is trimming the crystal income for newer players trying to induce spending. I think older/heavier accouns will see short term (at the least) in terms of crystals, even after the matchmaking sorts itself out.
Hmmm this is getting deeper the more it’s discussed. I dig it lol
Trimming the income of the top of the shard on new players, yes. Increasing the PO most new players will see, also yes.
Newer shards are going to be bigger and more active. Anyone outside of the top 50-100 has a chance at an increased income, and possibly more depending on refreshes due to activity.
Anyone outside of the top 100 already could get increased income. Typically all it takes to be in the top 100 was to actually farm a good team and actually do your battles. Quit treating everyone that was below the top 100 as if they were some sort of victim.
Yes, they will likely benefit from this. But punishing your most active players to even out the income probably won't bode well for the long term health of the game.
There in lies the problem, "most active" does not mean top payout. Stale shards and shard chats actually allow players to get a higher income with less activity.
The info we say in our discussion was actually showing that after 1-2 years movement in shards regardless of GP or when they were started, were pretty static.
I can only speak for my experience, but this is what happened to me. The only time I bother fighting to win is when GAC is active with a Win X Squad Arena Battles feat. Otherwise I take my 101-200 place rewards because why bother if I’m just going to be work my **** off every day for the 100th place reward and then get yelled at because that slot belongs to someone’s friend of a friend?
Lol who has 100 people in the same hour in their shard.
Definitely not mine, we barely have 300 players. But I got yelled at two years ago and haven’t given a —— since.
If their decisions had been thought out in advance, everyone wouldn't hate Conquest.
If they had started with Conquest the way it is now, things would be very different than they are right now, it's almost like they had a plan to build and change it the way they did to minimize the fall out, but maybe not.
If they planned to build and change it the way they did, that's is some seriously terrible planning.
You make a lot of assumptions about record required for promotion/demotion as well as the gap between A1 and K5. Let's put that aside for a moment.
Dude. The number of contestant during a single season is fixed. There is no draw in GAC, the binomial distribution applies here by definition. This will result in a Gaussian, again, by definition MOST of the players will score 6/6 in ALL leauges. Go do the math for yourself if you dont believe me.
And when it comes to the back-and-forth thingie:
The whole system is pretty much static or will become after few steps of iteration. Simply because there is no entrypoint for newer players here. They will always start at the bottom, you cannot create a 6M account out of thin air. If you give it a thought or two, it is pretty reasonable to assume that the top of A1 will substitute the bottom of K5 when it comes to the masses over and over again. Certain individuals might escape this loop, I am not saying it is impossible, and at the end of the day the human factor indeed does have an effect on your performance, so you might outdo your own self, or underperform for whatever reason. There are 2 factors that can break this by nature: spending money, and finishing all content, and capping everyone at the top. The second is pretty unlikely to happen.
Okay. If we were to take each of the 12 matches as a coinflip, then I agree you get a binomial distribution on wins. And if W-L record were all that determined your league rank (it doesn't, as I understand it), that means all the 3-9 (and a few 4-8) move down; all the 9-3 (and a few 8-4) move up. I assume that's why you picked those records earlier.
Here's where I think it falls apart. Let's say I'm in K5. If I go 6-6, while being matched with people with a similar ladder ranking (they said this in the announcement), my ladder ranking will be essentially the same as it was at the start of the season, which means I'd still be K5 and I'd move down. Conversely, if I'm in A1 and I go 6-6, I'll still be A1 and move back up. So I think that even these hypothetical people that are going to oscillate leagues like this will still settle into a 6-6 record over time.
This depends on how broad the MM is on your ladder ranking. If you were thrown randomly against anyone in Kyber while in K5, then my prediction would fall apart.
You make a lot of assumptions about record required for promotion/demotion as well as the gap between A1 and K5. Let's put that aside for a moment.
Dude. The number of contestant during a single season is fixed. There is no draw in GAC, the binomial distribution applies here by definition. This will result in a Gaussian, again, by definition MOST of the players will score 6/6 in ALL leauges. Go do the math for yourself if you dont believe me.
And when it comes to the back-and-forth thingie:
The whole system is pretty much static or will become after few steps of iteration. Simply because there is no entrypoint for newer players here. They will always start at the bottom, you cannot create a 6M account out of thin air. If you give it a thought or two, it is pretty reasonable to assume that the top of A1 will substitute the bottom of K5 when it comes to the masses over and over again. Certain individuals might escape this loop, I am not saying it is impossible, and at the end of the day the human factor indeed does have an effect on your performance, so you might outdo your own self, or underperform for whatever reason. There are 2 factors that can break this by nature: spending money, and finishing all content, and capping everyone at the top. The second is pretty unlikely to happen.
Okay. If we were to take each of the 12 matches as a coinflip, then I agree you get a binomial distribution on wins. And if W-L record were all that determined your league rank (it doesn't, as I understand it), that means all the 3-9 (and a few 4-8) move down; all the 9-3 (and a few 8-4) move up. I assume that's why you picked those records earlier.
Here's where I think it falls apart. Let's say I'm in K5. If I go 6-6, while being matched with people with a similar ladder ranking (they said this in the announcement), my ladder ranking will be essentially the same as it was at the start of the season, which means I'd still be K5 and I'd move down. Conversely, if I'm in A1 and I go 6-6, I'll still be A1 and move back up. So I think that even these hypothetical people that are going to oscillate leagues like this will still settle into a 6-6 record over time.
This depends on how broad the MM is on your ladder ranking. If you were thrown randomly against anyone in Kyber while in K5, then my prediction would fall apart.
Quote from the devpost:
"After that point, Skill Rating will only be updated through Wins and Losses during a GAC."
Can you elaborate your thoughts on this topic a little more?
First and least importanly, the GAC match doesnt need to be a coninflip, still half the population wins it and half the population loses it, with some regard to the byes that occur every now and then.
Your league rank is of course not solely determined on your W-L but If the winbonus (points) stays worth of 60% of a full clear, approximately, AND the system is favoring the offensive playstyle as they intend to, it will come down to this with so little exceptions that we can ignore them. Two dead characters here, a dropped battle there... It will average out really fast.
With your 6/6 ranking you will be promoted to A3 or K3, because division promotion is a thing from week2, and you are by definition in the middle of the many. Only league promotion is prohibited during the season. I think this a fundamental point of our disagreement, are you sure you have considered this?
I know, this is a slight oversimplification, because you have a baseline rating and it shifts slower than this, but you are definitely gravitating towards K3 with a 6/6 ratio. Other people in Kyber league with 0-3, 0-6 etc records are gravitating towards K5 and push you up. We also established already (or so it seemed to me) that only 3-9 and worse performances go down, therefore they are the ones occupying the K5, not the 6-6 players.
So my point being here... For all we know you cannot go 6/6 in K5. You can go maybe 3-0 in K5 then you are in K4, or, maybe, depending on the algorithm in K1, because heck why not. We dont know if multiple division jumps are enabled, I dont think there was info published on this yet.
In K4 however, you have all the chances to meet someone from K3 who started this season with a 0-3, or, depending on the algorithm, 1-2 is also possible in some extreme cases (I know, I know, now i am actually making a lot of assumptions). As for how bread is the MM on your rating... based on the TW I am not optimistic at all. We also do not know if cross-division matched are enabled or not. Since they emphasized that cross-league matched are prohibited, I absolutely expect cross-division matchups.
Anyway. I think my point still stands about some scenarios in which you might wanna avoid promotion if you are maximizing your income. I find this, and the principle which aims for equality of outcome extremely problematic.
I know, this is a slight oversimplification, because you have a baseline rating and it shifts slower than this, but you are definitely gravitating towards K3 with a 6/6 ratio.
I think this is wrong. I don't think we can have any further discussion if we don't agree on this.
My understanding: 50% win rate, ladder ranking stays the same, you don't change divisions during a season.
Yours, as I understand it: 50% win rate, you shift towards Div3 within your league.
Since we don't agree on how the ranking system works, we aren't going to agree on the outcome of it.
That said, if your understanding is the correct one, then I agree with your predicted problematic outcome and I will not be happy about how they implemented these changes.
I know, this is a slight oversimplification, because you have a baseline rating and it shifts slower than this, but you are definitely gravitating towards K3 with a 6/6 ratio.
I think this is wrong. I don't think we can have any further discussion if we don't agree on this.
My understanding: 50% win rate, ladder ranking stays the same, you don't change divisions during a season.
Yours, as I understand it: 50% win rate, you shift towards Div3 within your league.
Since we don't agree on how the ranking system works, we aren't going to agree on the outcome of it.
That said, if your understanding is the correct one, then I agree with your predicted problematic outcome and I will not be happy about how they implemented these changes.
you definitely change divisions during seasons. Take a look at the picture in the original devpost:
I know, this is a slight oversimplification, because you have a baseline rating and it shifts slower than this, but you are definitely gravitating towards K3 with a 6/6 ratio.
I think this is wrong. I don't think we can have any further discussion if we don't agree on this.
My understanding: 50% win rate, ladder ranking stays the same, you don't change divisions during a season.
Yours, as I understand it: 50% win rate, you shift towards Div3 within your league.
Since we don't agree on how the ranking system works, we aren't going to agree on the outcome of it.
That said, if your understanding is the correct one, then I agree with your predicted problematic outcome and I will not be happy about how they implemented these changes.
you definitely change divisions during seasons. Take a look at the picture in the original devpost:
I know, this is a slight oversimplification, because you have a baseline rating and it shifts slower than this, but you are definitely gravitating towards K3 with a 6/6 ratio.
I think this is wrong. I don't think we can have any further discussion if we don't agree on this.
My understanding: 50% win rate, ladder ranking stays the same, you don't change divisions during a season.
Yours, as I understand it: 50% win rate, you shift towards Div3 within your league.
Since we don't agree on how the ranking system works, we aren't going to agree on the outcome of it.
That said, if your understanding is the correct one, then I agree with your predicted problematic outcome and I will not be happy about how they implemented these changes.
you definitely change divisions during seasons. Take a look at the picture in the original devpost:
Have we been given any indication SA will be after crystals are taken? Is there still any incentive to stay atop the shard? Is this our sandbox mode? If so, are we given unlimited battles?
If their decisions had been thought out in advance, everyone wouldn't hate Conquest.
If they had started with Conquest the way it is now, things would be very different than they are right now, it's almost like they had a plan to build and change it the way they did to minimize the fall out, but maybe not.
No matter what their plans were for Conquest, it failed.. The 4 different major SWGOH podcasts had to spend time to explain why Conquest "is not THAT bad" (it is) because the Community (Discord, Reddit, this forum, and YouTube) were very disappointed with the changes. As you were as well.
Conquest could have been great but now it's a joke..
I would say in newer Arenas you will see more engagements. Old squad arenas like mine will probably die or change to something like sandbox for people in the discord chat.
The more I think about it, the more ingenious it is (from CGs standpoint):
- Large GP players are seeded favorably somewhere in kyber, meaning high initial crystal income under the new system. None of them are worse off initially, so this encourages retention or even more engagement at the top end. They still need to perform, else the skill ladder means they will drop and gradually lose income.
- Issues around matchmaking algorithms go away, since it's now a self-regulating system,
- After a short while, individual players' performance will asymptote towards 6/6 leading to frustration and a self-perceived lack of progress. I feel this will encourage spending,
Personally, I'll be taking of hit of between 50-100 crystals per day since I currently climb to #1 everyday in SA typically with 1 refresh, sometimes 2 (net 350-450). I'm keen to find out whether I can transcend my initial seeding in Auro2 and hit low kyber.
So, the Q&A pretty much confirms the "low permeability" variant. New players will be seeded somewhere in carbonite, and the layout will change so there will effectively never be a point where further advacement doesn't impact GAC anymore. So much for Kyno's argument. New players will now have the choice to whale out or be stuck with low rewards, the lack of a global ladder and no direct competition with veterans was the only thing keeping the game somewhat beginner friendly. But hey, why do I care? I'm starting in Kyber 1 so I'm pretty much set until the game dies due to a lack of new players...
And a side note, it looks like the old Q&A format wasn't that bad after all, when they return to it after all the time of looking for something better.
SA was a pita and also illogical. This is a long term planning & strategy game, so why do I need to spend 20-30 minutes each day at a given hour given minute given second... No. A 1-day long battle is much more user friendly.
And everybody hates shard mafia. Even some people that are IN the shard mafia.
I'll also get about 100 more crystals daily, if my calculations are correct. Thank you!
Btw everybody is going on and on about new players. But you know who this change brings? Returning players!
If you took a 1 year pause, that your peers kept progressing, you were basically locked out of top 1000, for like, forever. Now, a year ago retired 3mill account is perfectly fine to reinstate. You'll get a decent league, good crystal income. Who doesn't want their old friends to return and play together?
Also, complaints are about not doing phased transition. Well, guess what, SA now, fleet crystald later, is exactly what phased transition is!
I'm pretty sure fleet will lose its crystals too in the new few months. Its purpose can be whatever - ship mats so your ships will be stronger in GAC, or just do the same as with SA: add gear/new shard rewards to the fleet store.
This is the best change that I've seen coming to this game.
Btw everybody is going on and on about new players. But you know who this change brings? Returning players!
If you took a 1 year pause, that your peers kept progressing, you were basically locked out of top 1000, for like, forever. Now, a year ago retired 3mill account is perfectly fine to reinstate. You'll get a decent league, good crystal income. Who doesn't want their old friends to return and play together?
This is simply not correct. I took a 2 year break myself and was then out of all arenas for the time being. I then skipped the first GLs, saved up and then went to JMK and was part of the meta again. In the GAC I had no problems at all due to my break, because I was drawn to similarly strong opponents. If an Acc comes back now then he has lost the connection to the top forever and will never get it back. You should also not be blinded by the few more crystals that one or the other gets, when the big ones get even more crystals. The gap between big and small accounts will get even bigger. I would not be surprised if CG in the near future they increased prices in the supplies and then justified it with the fact that many now get more crystals.
This is simply not correct. I took a 2 year break myself and was then out of all arenas for the time being. I then skipped the first GLs, saved up and then went to JMK and was part of the meta again.
So you just 'saved up' with your daily 50 SA crystals and got JMK?
Sorry but thats ****. If you got your JMK, then that means you were not f2p, so that nullifies the argument, because whales never had an issue and never will, even in the new system.
In the GAC I had no problems at all due to my break, because I was drawn to similarly strong opponents. If an Acc comes back now then he has lost the connection to the top forever and will never get it back.
Depends on what do you call 'top'. Do you really expectes to beat people like Ahnald, who put thousands of dollars into this game every week? That's not going to happen neither in the old neither in the new system.
Top should be your current GAC event. Win that. And yes, you can easily do that, no matter if you're new/old/returning player, thanks to the new win/loss matchmaking algorythm.
You should also not be blinded by the few more crystals that one or the other gets, when the big ones get even more crystals. The gap between big and small accounts will get even bigger.
You think people are/will be in the highest league/division because of their daily free crystal income? Your naivity is cute.
Those divisions will only have whales. Money has always been and still will always be the ultimate superpower. They don't give a dam about +100 free crystals, so the gap won't get bigger. They'll still have everything maxed on day 1, which takes many months of f2p to get.
I would not be surprised if CG in the near future they increased prices in the supplies and then justified it with the fact that many now get more crystals.
Pointless argument, because nothing like that was said. Ramble and riot when they do make such changes, or even talk about such. But before, is nonsense.
I can already predict the future, GAC overhaul released -> plethora of game breaking bugs & glitches arrive -> GAC cancellation -> compensation rewards
So you just 'saved up' with your daily 50 SA crystals and got JMK?
Sorry but thats ****. If you got your JMK, then that means you were not f2p, so that nullifies the argument, because whales never had an issue and never will, even in the new system.
First of all, I have saved Gear for 9 months and secondly, I got 400 crystals from the Fleet Arena every day. So don't talk garbage that this doesn't work. So far you only needed a team to get the maximum crystals. Therefore, you could easily come back even after a long break. You weren't back on top right away, but if you had a halfway decent plan, there was a way back. Now that's no longer possible. Maximum crystals are now only possible for the really big ones, and if you take a break, you'll never make it back to your old position unless you put a lot of money into it.
Depends on what do you call 'top'. Do you really expectes to beat people like Ahnald, who put thousands of dollars into this game every week? That's not going to happen neither in the old neither in the new system.
Top should be your current GAC event. Win that. And yes, you can easily do that, no matter if you're new/old/returning player, thanks to the new win/loss matchmaking algorythm.
I never wrote that. The point is that, in principle, everyone had the opportunity to complete the GAC as one of the best. As I said, despite a 2-year break, I was able to complete several GAC in Kyber Top 10, because everyone met opponents of his level. This will be cancelled now. There is only one top now and only the biggest of the biggest will get there. Players with less GP are artificially kept at the bottom because sooner or later they will meet acc they can't beat.
You think people are/will be in the highest league/division because of their daily free crystal income? Your naivity is cute.
Those divisions will only have whales. Money has always been and still will always be the ultimate superpower. They don't give a dam about +100 free crystals, so the gap won't get bigger. They'll still have everything maxed on day 1, which takes many months of f2p to get.
What are you talking about?
It's about the fact that some find the changes good because they now get a few more crystals, that's a naive fallacy. The big ones get even more crystals
So you just 'saved up' with your daily 50 SA crystals and got JMK?
Sorry but thats ****. If you got your JMK, then that means you were not f2p, so that nullifies the argument, because whales never had an issue and never will, even in the new system.
First of all, I have saved Gear for 9 months and secondly, I got 400 crystals from the Fleet Arena every day. So don't talk garbage that this doesn't work. So far you only needed a team to get the maximum crystals. Therefore, you could easily come back even after a long break. You weren't back on top right away, but if you had a halfway decent plan, there was a way back. Now that's no longer possible. Maximum crystals are now only possible for the really big ones, and if you take a break, you'll never make it back to your old position unless you put a lot of money into it.
JMK wasn't even released 9 months ago. You were already getting his gear, 5 months before his reveal?
And how did you get the Relic8 materials, as a ftp? Any spots in your guild left, that does CRancor and recruits people that don't have ANY of the characters released in the past 2 years? 0 reliced toons?
See the problems? If you take a 2 year break, you cant possibly just get JMK.
Unless you've spent money or got an invite to a guild that is way way way out of reason to take you in.
Also, you took 2 years break, but then you had no issue getting nr 1 payout at fleet?
This all makes no sense.
But lets say youre a miracle boy with godlike luck skills. You get taken into a guild where you do 0 dmg on a raid, but get relic8 mats anyway. Your fleet shard mates are noobs and haven't updated their fleet for 2 years. Its still Mace Windus on top with lvl 40 ships.
THEN, you get your JMK. Wow, you are now top 30 in squad arena. So you join the mafia, and take your dedicated spot each day, while noone's bothering you. Maybe your shard mates will even take their mods off so you can beat them and climb effortlessly.
Now compare that to new system, where you come back, maybe lose the first 3-4 GAC, and boom, you're matched with people who have similar characters/fleet. All the difference on who wins is now based almost purely on skill.
Replies
There should be some chats what you mention what are open and welcoming, but the coin has two side and there are some what is really strict and abuse it's power. If I recall well one the youtuber also made a video about it. And hell I even know peoples who are in these kind of chats, and there is everything between them. So the more common for me are the not so freindly ones. Plus there are players like me, I want to be on the top not out of compromise but with skill and with determination. I was also invited to F.A and turned them down also and after that for about 6 months I just went a little bit crazy asap multiple refreshes etc I not gained much but it was satisfying. I was able reach top 1 multiple times. After that life happend and I had not so much free time to do my shenanigans. So I'm happy that I can do it with this new change and it will be a 1v1 not a 1v10 easier life but not with negotiation skills / not so great also not terrible
My crystal income may be fine, but crystals aren't what makes the game fun, or what motivates me to play. I see them as a means to an end. For me, that end goal has been shaping my roster to be GAC competitive. The previous matchmaking system may have had some issues, but I can think of plenty of potential ways to shore those up. Instead, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I share those concerns. My optimism is because I loathe SA and the current GAC system, not because I think the changes will be perfect.
I agree with you that a lot of things were bad with the old matchmaking. Still, it would have been a better solution to keep the division and make the matchmaking within the division a bit more W/L oriented and get rid of the unnecessary feats.
Dude. The number of contestant during a single season is fixed. There is no draw in GAC, the binomial distribution applies here by definition. This will result in a Gaussian, again, by definition MOST of the players will score 6/6 in ALL leauges. Go do the math for yourself if you dont believe me.
And when it comes to the back-and-forth thingie:
The whole system is pretty much static or will become after few steps of iteration. Simply because there is no entrypoint for newer players here. They will always start at the bottom, you cannot create a 6M account out of thin air. If you give it a thought or two, it is pretty reasonable to assume that the top of A1 will substitute the bottom of K5 when it comes to the masses over and over again. Certain individuals might escape this loop, I am not saying it is impossible, and at the end of the day the human factor indeed does have an effect on your performance, so you might outdo your own self, or underperform for whatever reason. There are 2 factors that can break this by nature: spending money, and finishing all content, and capping everyone at the top. The second is pretty unlikely to happen.
Lol who has 100 people in the same hour in their shard.
Definitely not mine, we barely have 300 players. But I got yelled at two years ago and haven’t given a —— since.
If they planned to build and change it the way they did, that's is some seriously terrible planning.
Okay. If we were to take each of the 12 matches as a coinflip, then I agree you get a binomial distribution on wins. And if W-L record were all that determined your league rank (it doesn't, as I understand it), that means all the 3-9 (and a few 4-8) move down; all the 9-3 (and a few 8-4) move up. I assume that's why you picked those records earlier.
Here's where I think it falls apart. Let's say I'm in K5. If I go 6-6, while being matched with people with a similar ladder ranking (they said this in the announcement), my ladder ranking will be essentially the same as it was at the start of the season, which means I'd still be K5 and I'd move down. Conversely, if I'm in A1 and I go 6-6, I'll still be A1 and move back up. So I think that even these hypothetical people that are going to oscillate leagues like this will still settle into a 6-6 record over time.
This depends on how broad the MM is on your ladder ranking. If you were thrown randomly against anyone in Kyber while in K5, then my prediction would fall apart.
Quote from the devpost:
"After that point, Skill Rating will only be updated through Wins and Losses during a GAC."
Can you elaborate your thoughts on this topic a little more?
First and least importanly, the GAC match doesnt need to be a coninflip, still half the population wins it and half the population loses it, with some regard to the byes that occur every now and then.
Your league rank is of course not solely determined on your W-L but If the winbonus (points) stays worth of 60% of a full clear, approximately, AND the system is favoring the offensive playstyle as they intend to, it will come down to this with so little exceptions that we can ignore them. Two dead characters here, a dropped battle there... It will average out really fast.
With your 6/6 ranking you will be promoted to A3 or K3, because division promotion is a thing from week2, and you are by definition in the middle of the many. Only league promotion is prohibited during the season. I think this a fundamental point of our disagreement, are you sure you have considered this?
I know, this is a slight oversimplification, because you have a baseline rating and it shifts slower than this, but you are definitely gravitating towards K3 with a 6/6 ratio. Other people in Kyber league with 0-3, 0-6 etc records are gravitating towards K5 and push you up. We also established already (or so it seemed to me) that only 3-9 and worse performances go down, therefore they are the ones occupying the K5, not the 6-6 players.
So my point being here... For all we know you cannot go 6/6 in K5. You can go maybe 3-0 in K5 then you are in K4, or, maybe, depending on the algorithm in K1, because heck why not. We dont know if multiple division jumps are enabled, I dont think there was info published on this yet.
In K4 however, you have all the chances to meet someone from K3 who started this season with a 0-3, or, depending on the algorithm, 1-2 is also possible in some extreme cases (I know, I know, now i am actually making a lot of assumptions). As for how bread is the MM on your rating... based on the TW I am not optimistic at all. We also do not know if cross-division matched are enabled or not. Since they emphasized that cross-league matched are prohibited, I absolutely expect cross-division matchups.
Anyway. I think my point still stands about some scenarios in which you might wanna avoid promotion if you are maximizing your income. I find this, and the principle which aims for equality of outcome extremely problematic.
I think this is wrong. I don't think we can have any further discussion if we don't agree on this.
My understanding: 50% win rate, ladder ranking stays the same, you don't change divisions during a season.
Yours, as I understand it: 50% win rate, you shift towards Div3 within your league.
Since we don't agree on how the ranking system works, we aren't going to agree on the outcome of it.
That said, if your understanding is the correct one, then I agree with your predicted problematic outcome and I will not be happy about how they implemented these changes.
you definitely change divisions during seasons. Take a look at the picture in the original devpost:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6025736/uploads/editor/5v/k2mxxo8we62b.png
"division placements update"
I didn't say you couldn't change divisions in a season. I said a 6-6 record will keep you where you started.
Fine, lets give it a rest, we can discuss it later, once we see more clearly
No matter what their plans were for Conquest, it failed.. The 4 different major SWGOH podcasts had to spend time to explain why Conquest "is not THAT bad" (it is) because the Community (Discord, Reddit, this forum, and YouTube) were very disappointed with the changes. As you were as well.
Conquest could have been great but now it's a joke..
Ragnorok_COTF's assumption that 6/6 means you stay where you are makes sense to me, but happy to be proven wrong if more information comes to light.
- Large GP players are seeded favorably somewhere in kyber, meaning high initial crystal income under the new system. None of them are worse off initially, so this encourages retention or even more engagement at the top end. They still need to perform, else the skill ladder means they will drop and gradually lose income.
- Issues around matchmaking algorithms go away, since it's now a self-regulating system,
- After a short while, individual players' performance will asymptote towards 6/6 leading to frustration and a self-perceived lack of progress. I feel this will encourage spending,
Personally, I'll be taking of hit of between 50-100 crystals per day since I currently climb to #1 everyday in SA typically with 1 refresh, sometimes 2 (net 350-450). I'm keen to find out whether I can transcend my initial seeding in Auro2 and hit low kyber.
And a side note, it looks like the old Q&A format wasn't that bad after all, when they return to it after all the time of looking for something better.
SA was a pita and also illogical. This is a long term planning & strategy game, so why do I need to spend 20-30 minutes each day at a given hour given minute given second... No. A 1-day long battle is much more user friendly.
And everybody hates shard mafia. Even some people that are IN the shard mafia.
I'll also get about 100 more crystals daily, if my calculations are correct. Thank you!
Btw everybody is going on and on about new players. But you know who this change brings? Returning players!
If you took a 1 year pause, that your peers kept progressing, you were basically locked out of top 1000, for like, forever. Now, a year ago retired 3mill account is perfectly fine to reinstate. You'll get a decent league, good crystal income. Who doesn't want their old friends to return and play together?
Also, complaints are about not doing phased transition. Well, guess what, SA now, fleet crystald later, is exactly what phased transition is!
I'm pretty sure fleet will lose its crystals too in the new few months. Its purpose can be whatever - ship mats so your ships will be stronger in GAC, or just do the same as with SA: add gear/new shard rewards to the fleet store.
This is the best change that I've seen coming to this game.
This is simply not correct. I took a 2 year break myself and was then out of all arenas for the time being. I then skipped the first GLs, saved up and then went to JMK and was part of the meta again. In the GAC I had no problems at all due to my break, because I was drawn to similarly strong opponents. If an Acc comes back now then he has lost the connection to the top forever and will never get it back. You should also not be blinded by the few more crystals that one or the other gets, when the big ones get even more crystals. The gap between big and small accounts will get even bigger. I would not be surprised if CG in the near future they increased prices in the supplies and then justified it with the fact that many now get more crystals.
So you just 'saved up' with your daily 50 SA crystals and got JMK?
Sorry but thats ****. If you got your JMK, then that means you were not f2p, so that nullifies the argument, because whales never had an issue and never will, even in the new system.
Depends on what do you call 'top'. Do you really expectes to beat people like Ahnald, who put thousands of dollars into this game every week? That's not going to happen neither in the old neither in the new system.
Top should be your current GAC event. Win that. And yes, you can easily do that, no matter if you're new/old/returning player, thanks to the new win/loss matchmaking algorythm.
You think people are/will be in the highest league/division because of their daily free crystal income? Your naivity is cute.
Those divisions will only have whales. Money has always been and still will always be the ultimate superpower. They don't give a dam about +100 free crystals, so the gap won't get bigger. They'll still have everything maxed on day 1, which takes many months of f2p to get.
Pointless argument, because nothing like that was said. Ramble and riot when they do make such changes, or even talk about such. But before, is nonsense.
First of all, I have saved Gear for 9 months and secondly, I got 400 crystals from the Fleet Arena every day. So don't talk garbage that this doesn't work. So far you only needed a team to get the maximum crystals. Therefore, you could easily come back even after a long break. You weren't back on top right away, but if you had a halfway decent plan, there was a way back. Now that's no longer possible. Maximum crystals are now only possible for the really big ones, and if you take a break, you'll never make it back to your old position unless you put a lot of money into it. I never wrote that. The point is that, in principle, everyone had the opportunity to complete the GAC as one of the best. As I said, despite a 2-year break, I was able to complete several GAC in Kyber Top 10, because everyone met opponents of his level. This will be cancelled now. There is only one top now and only the biggest of the biggest will get there. Players with less GP are artificially kept at the bottom because sooner or later they will meet acc they can't beat.
What are you talking about?
It's about the fact that some find the changes good because they now get a few more crystals, that's a naive fallacy. The big ones get even more crystals
JMK wasn't even released 9 months ago. You were already getting his gear, 5 months before his reveal?
And how did you get the Relic8 materials, as a ftp? Any spots in your guild left, that does CRancor and recruits people that don't have ANY of the characters released in the past 2 years? 0 reliced toons?
See the problems? If you take a 2 year break, you cant possibly just get JMK.
Unless you've spent money or got an invite to a guild that is way way way out of reason to take you in.
Also, you took 2 years break, but then you had no issue getting nr 1 payout at fleet?
This all makes no sense.
But lets say youre a miracle boy with godlike luck skills. You get taken into a guild where you do 0 dmg on a raid, but get relic8 mats anyway. Your fleet shard mates are noobs and haven't updated their fleet for 2 years. Its still Mace Windus on top with lvl 40 ships.
THEN, you get your JMK. Wow, you are now top 30 in squad arena. So you join the mafia, and take your dedicated spot each day, while noone's bothering you. Maybe your shard mates will even take their mods off so you can beat them and climb effortlessly.
Now compare that to new system, where you come back, maybe lose the first 3-4 GAC, and boom, you're matched with people who have similar characters/fleet. All the difference on who wins is now based almost purely on skill.
Which one's a better pvp experience?