Health mods in general, don't do much in my opinion. All six being health mods gives 15% health and all six being defense mods gives 15% defense. Best I've noticed when testing armor increases, the defense bonus will give you 12-13% damage reduction.
Lets say you have 15000 health and 15000 protection. Your enemies have an average damage of 6000. You reduce that 6000 by 12.5%, meaning they only hit for 5250. Then it takes 5.714286 turns to take you down. If you had health mods then you'd have 17250 health and 15000 protection. You wouldn't reduce any of the 6000. Then it takes 5.375 turns to take you down.
You see in this case Defense mod set bonus is better. Adjust the protection, health, and damage numbers however you'd like and defense remains better in every case. In fact, as long as the total damage reduction you get from 15% defense is greater than 7%, you're better off with Defense than Health for mod set bonuses.
Keep in mind as far as primary stats go, you should be getting protection rather than either of these if possible (diamonds are only defense if I'm not mistaken.) I'm talking about mod set bonuses only.
If you're talking about mod set bonuses only, you're assuming that all three set bonuses together (15%) will increase your defense stat for another 15%. But that's totally wrong, def is added multiplicative and not additive. So it totally depends on the base def of your character. If your char has e.g. 10% base def, those +15%def set bonus nets you a total of 11.5% defense total. So that is 1.5% damage reduction added, which is far less than your 7% rule. In contrast, health is added additive (as the base stat is absolute and not percentage based), as are also other percentage based base stats (e.g. 10% crit rate/potency/... totally nets +10%).
To have your example become true, the base def must be higher than 50%, which is extremely high. The fact that you have recognized a boost of 12-13% to defense (I really hope you took the numbers and didn't tried to guess those numbers from combat records) may be because the mods you've applied have also secondary stats increasing def.
So long story short, your assumption is wrong, hence the example is wrong and def is the worst bonus you can go for, except you have extreme high base defense. In any other case you're better off with ANY other bonus.
@kartoffelSTAMPF you're not reading all I wrote. First post, yes, but not everything.
If you are referring to the 12-13%figure then, yes, thats anecdotal and IS wrong because it wont always be that. I explain all the math and lack of assumptions further down and will edit my first post to include that when I'm on a computer.
There are holes in my example but not the math explained in a later post. Defense Mods are a better starting point than Health Mods.
I have been wondering about def vs health mods but I haven't got the jedis for the tier 3 def challenge, so it's a bit of a moot point for me. My concern is that there are many attacks that ignore armor/resistance, so this could have a big impact on mod effectiveness.
good point there are several attacks that ignores deff and attacks that makes deff down like phasma basic
I've tested it myself in GW the other day. I added a full set of defense mods to a character and ran the same node and tracked Unbuffed damage from the same character against the same character for 5 turns. Ignoring crits. The damage was actually HIGHER with the mods. It wasn't even strong enough to overcome RNG. The net gain in armor was less than 2%. Using defense % as a mod is a big mistake.
Not all characters benefit in the same way. If the net armor increase was only 2% then defense mods wouldn't be better for that character.
That 2% was for the highest armored character I have. Defense is good for NOBODY. You would need armor of up near 50%. Now, I don't have any tanks maxed, but unless you are telling me gear 10/11 pushes armor up to that level then defense will always be poor. I don't have anyone with armor over 20% pre mods.
@Bulldog1205 Your highest armored character has a 2% armor increase when going from NOTHING to +15% defense? Perhaps nominally, but you need to check it as a % increase. 2% nominal increase could be 10% as a percentage increase.
I'm not saying YOUR defense Mods are better than YOUR health Mods. I'm saying ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL, +15% defense is a better boost than +15% health IF it results in an armor % increase greater than X.
Your Daka example may be similar to the person who brought up the Rex example. I can tell you that Phasma increases in armor % by far more than 7% on just an 11.75% defense bonus: just over 9% to be exact. That constant damage level is irrelevant, you can re-read my edited first post now to see why, and the 7% "rule of thumb" is when protection and health are close in value to one another. It's been removed from the post because people are getting hung up on that as well.
Defense may be a big strike out for some characters, but I'm working right now to show real numbers from my characters in a non-made-up example as to how to use this and what it shows.
@Silken, are you really claiming to know why my Phasma increased 9.3% in armor % from a +11.75% defense mod, saying that it was secondary stats?
I responded to what you said, because I read, comprehended, and formed a response. Just because I basically said, "hold on I'm clarifying what I wrote to help you understand" doesn't mean I'm not listening. I didn't say defense mods are better for Daka, I posted a way to figure out if they are or not. IF what you say is true, then they are not better for Daka. But you take it further and assume everyone's increase is only 2-4% because hers is? Then try to rationalize why my counter example to your claim isn't true?
C'mon, man. I'm listening but I can't believe, just because you said it, that all characters get a 2%-4% increase in armor from 15% defense bonus or that you'd need 41% armor to start with to get a 7% increase. You aren't backing your claims and I know by counter example they are false.
I've made every effort to be clear about what I'm assuming. I'm offering to take more time to show how to use the tool I provided in my edited first post. I get that many have read my initial first post that was based on a made up scenario and are responding to it. I challenge you, if you have not, to read the edited first post (which is a clarification of a post made later in the thread.) It is much less presumptuous in my choice of words (as is the new title) and much more direct about the point I'm trying to make.
You keep completely missing the point that people are trying to make. You seem to think people are questioning your maths. They are not.
You are correct in that, at a constant hit level of 6000, 7% Armour is better than 15% Health.
What we are trying to say is that 15% Defence, as a set bonus, only equals around a 2-4% increase to armour.
The big increases you see in armour stats comes from secondary flat stats in defence which you can get from any mod.
As a set, to be on par with health, the defence set bonus would have to double.
It's probably the worst set in the game.
Exactly my point. And this is because +%def is one of the only buffs which add their bonus multiplicative. This coupled with the low base defense every char has end up in meaningless buffs.
So here's the math, guys, cause I wasn't super clear and it seems like just looks like I used one example to prove my point.
Use an equation to check survivability for Health Mod Bonus: [Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/Damage.
Similarly for Defense Mod Bonus: [Protection+ Health]/[(1-X)*Damage].
Set them equal to one another and solve for X. I've done it already so here it is:
X = 1 - {[Protection + Health]/[Protection + (Health*1.15)]}
If your increase in armor and resistance is greater than X, then you're better off with Defense mods. You're initial health pool does not matter. Go ahead and put in any outlandish health amount you want in there. It's not moving that X much at all, assuming you have protection on your characters. And if your protection is higher than your Health, which it most certainly will be from mod primaries, then it's even lower than 7%!
Ok, this is indeed correct! You end up with X=6.976744186%, at which defense starts to shine.
BUT And this is a big BUT
In order to have X>~7%, i.e. your total characters %defense increased for at least 7%, you would need either a very very high base defense rate already or very very +%defense buffs via mods. Here it is:
a base def of 4% --> needs 175.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 5% --> needs 140.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 6% --> needs 116.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 7% --> needs 100.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 8% --> needs 87.50000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 9% --> needs 77.77778% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 10% --> needs 70.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 11% --> needs 63.63636% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 12% --> needs 58.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 13% --> needs 53.84615% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 14% --> needs 50.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 15% --> needs 46.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 16% --> needs 43.75000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 17% --> needs 41.17647% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 18% --> needs 38.88889% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 19% --> needs 36.84211% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 20% --> needs 35.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 21% --> needs 33.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 22% --> needs 31.81818% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 23% --> needs 30.43478% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 24% --> needs 29.16667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 25% --> needs 28.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 26% --> needs 26.92308% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 27% --> needs 25.92593% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 28% --> needs 25.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 29% --> needs 24.13793% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 30% --> needs 23.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 31% --> needs 22.58065% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 32% --> needs 21.87500% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 33% --> needs 21.21212% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 34% --> needs 20.58824% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 35% --> needs 20.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 36% --> needs 19.44444% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 37% --> needs 18.91892% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 38% --> needs 18.42105% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 39% --> needs 17.94872% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 40% --> needs 17.50000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 41% --> needs 17.07317% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 42% --> needs 16.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 43% --> needs 16.27907% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 44% --> needs 15.90909% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 45% --> needs 15.55556% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 46% --> needs 15.21739% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 47% --> needs 14.89362% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 48% --> needs 14.58333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 49% --> needs 14.28571% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 50% --> needs 14.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
So in order to take advantage of this 7% rule of thumb only by using set bonuses, one needs at least a already existing 47% base defense. No char has this!
You keep completely missing the point that people are trying to make. You seem to think people are questioning your maths. They are not.
You are correct in that, at a constant hit level of 6000, 7% Armour is better than 15% Health.
What we are trying to say is that 15% Defence, as a set bonus, only equals around a 2-4% increase to armour.
The big increases you see in armour stats comes from secondary flat stats in defence which you can get from any mod.
As a set, to be on par with health, the defence set bonus would have to double.
It's probably the worst set in the game.
Exactly my point. And this is because +%def is one of the only buffs which add their bonus multiplicative. This coupled with the low base defense every char has end up in meaningless buffs.
So here's the math, guys, cause I wasn't super clear and it seems like just looks like I used one example to prove my point.
Use an equation to check survivability for Health Mod Bonus: [Protection+ (Health*1.15)]/Damage.
Similarly for Defense Mod Bonus: [Protection+ Health]/[(1-X)*Damage].
Set them equal to one another and solve for X. I've done it already so here it is:
X = 1 - {[Protection + Health]/[Protection + (Health*1.15)]}
If your increase in armor and resistance is greater than X, then you're better off with Defense mods. You're initial health pool does not matter. Go ahead and put in any outlandish health amount you want in there. It's not moving that X much at all, assuming you have protection on your characters. And if your protection is higher than your Health, which it most certainly will be from mod primaries, then it's even lower than 7%!
Ok, this is indeed correct! You end up with X=6.976744186%, at which defense starts to shine.
BUT And this is a big BUT
In order to have X>~7%, i.e. your total characters %defense increased for at least 7%, you would need either a very very high base defense rate already or very very +%defense buffs via mods. Here it is:
a base def of 4% --> needs 175.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 5% --> needs 140.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 6% --> needs 116.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 7% --> needs 100.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 8% --> needs 87.50000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 9% --> needs 77.77778% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 10% --> needs 70.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 11% --> needs 63.63636% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 12% --> needs 58.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 13% --> needs 53.84615% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 14% --> needs 50.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 15% --> needs 46.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 16% --> needs 43.75000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 17% --> needs 41.17647% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 18% --> needs 38.88889% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 19% --> needs 36.84211% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 20% --> needs 35.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 21% --> needs 33.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 22% --> needs 31.81818% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 23% --> needs 30.43478% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 24% --> needs 29.16667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 25% --> needs 28.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 26% --> needs 26.92308% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 27% --> needs 25.92593% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 28% --> needs 25.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 29% --> needs 24.13793% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 30% --> needs 23.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 31% --> needs 22.58065% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 32% --> needs 21.87500% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 33% --> needs 21.21212% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 34% --> needs 20.58824% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 35% --> needs 20.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 36% --> needs 19.44444% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 37% --> needs 18.91892% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 38% --> needs 18.42105% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 39% --> needs 17.94872% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 40% --> needs 17.50000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 41% --> needs 17.07317% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 42% --> needs 16.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 43% --> needs 16.27907% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 44% --> needs 15.90909% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 45% --> needs 15.55556% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 46% --> needs 15.21739% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 47% --> needs 14.89362% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 48% --> needs 14.58333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 49% --> needs 14.28571% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 50% --> needs 14.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
So in order to take advantage of this 7% rule of thumb only by using set bonuses, one needs at least a already existing 47% base defense. No char has this!
@kartoffelSTAMPF Where did you come up with all those numbers? Like I mentioned above, I can put an 11.75% defense mod on Phasma, with no other mods equipped, and it increases her armor % by 9.3%.
Ignore the hp mods up top and note no mods slotted have any flat or additional defence % value
[img][/img]
2 def mods slotted, 2.5% increase in defence value... Not even a full 1% increase to armor
Now those 2 def mods are replaced by 2 max lvl defence mods for an additional 2.5% increase from the last set
[img][/img]
Less than a percent armor bonus from 2.5% set bonus to 5% set bonus
Now the mod with the defence % primary stat.
[img][/img]
Mod removed 27.8% armor
Mod stats
[img][/img]
With secondary stats 13.5% defence added
[img][/img]
3% armor added from that mod so we can figure that's pretty close to a full max set of defence mods item sets assuming base stats are similar since when I added the mod for defence it added 13.5 and a full mod set would add 15%
So unless I am very wrong about this on this character (5555) a full mod set would add less than 3% armor
Now here's a flat value defence mod
[img][/img]
Mod has 18 defence on it... Let's check the armor increase
[img][/img]
That's almost 3% which was the increase we got from a full set of defence mods
i won't try to explain the math in depth it's not my thing I'm just showing the in game examples.. If I am wrong please correct me but I think it's all sound logic... Defence dosent seem to be the way to go
As an additional fact here's the same GW battle run with 5s and RG the intent being testing defence up stat
(note RG is leader so no extra defence from 5s lead ability)
[img][/img]
Lumi force blade no defence up, armor value is at about 31% 3000 damage
Now defence up
[img][/img]
2500
Same lumi same 5s same attack even just with defence up and we only blocked 500 more damage
I'm sure someone smarter than me can figure out the math behind all of this but at least I can show you the in game comparisons.... Correct me where I'm wrong so we can get a definitive answer on this one gentlemen
You all are right. Re-read the first post if interested. A lot of how it was being simply gauged was an over simplification.
I've read your updated post. SO far we do agree that %def needs a buff to be on par with other bonuses. I'm still curious about your observation that %-based increases are computed differently for each char - i will check this (for my tests I've always used one single char). If that's really the case then even more is broken here. I've already mentioned it elsewhere, add to this the fact that def is %-based but def-penetration is absolute, defense is one of the most disguised stats ... that's annoying. We need yo gamble for mods and dont even know how their effects are incorporated exactly.
Anyhow, if you like to do some calculations, i give you a tip: crtitical avoidance. My first research indicates me that this might turn out to be most effective defense buff on mods currently available. So if you like to play with some numbers, go for that ;-)
Vs high crit damage toons with low armor penetration...
Esp with defense up buff...
This is where they should shine, if at all.
Vs a toon with 200+ crit damage (crit damage set plus crit primary) every 1% damage mitigation will reduce crit damage by 2%. Still doesn't sound like a whole lot, but it totally depends on the attacking toons armor penetration and base damage and the targets base armor/resistance.
@LastJedi I agree they SHOULD, but as I show in my tests on 5555 (the character with highest armor) the difference is minimal at best and having 5% hp is in almost every case going to give you lager survival than 15% defence
The problem is that a +defense set bonus wont even get you 3.33% armor. It gets you around 2.1% armor, which as far as I can tell, unless you are healing quite a bit, isnt going to cut it compared to health mods on any character.
You should read through the "Proof armor has increased" thread if you can STHan. Basically, I and others are unsure if defense increases armor linearly, or even if it's supposed to do so, considering that linearly increasing high armor values will grant increasing returns to scale. People are also seeing weird **** like toons decreasing in armor as they level up, which leads me to believe that this whole thing is a bug.
You should read through the "Proof armor has increased" thread if you can STHan. Basically, I and others are unsure if defense increases armor linearly, or even if it's supposed to do so, considering that linearly increasing high armor values will grant increasing returns to scale. People are also seeing weird **** like toons decreasing in armor as they level up, which leads me to believe that this whole thing is a bug.
Mitigation = Defense / (Defense + (Level * 10)).
Looking at that, you might ask "doesn't that mean I actually lose a little mitigation when I level up?" The answer is actually yes, but a very small amount that's more than covered by the stat increases from gaining that level, as well as the new gear that becomes available as your level increases.
While that may seem counter-intuitive (and I don't disagree that it looks weird), it's set up that way to account for the fact that there's an extremely large difference in Max Health between a "squishy" target and a "tanky" target--tanky units would be all but invincible if Defense scaled as aggressively as Health does.
The problem is that a +defense set bonus wont even get you 3.33% armor. It gets you around 2.1% armor, which as far as I can tell, unless you are healing quite a bit, isnt going to cut it compared to health mods on any character.
I don't have a Defense Set to test, but using the older numbers people were putting up 3.33% was easy to achieve...that's a bummer, lol. So still didn't quite achieve what could have been
I've never seen that post but thanks for sharing it, that's nice to know. Either way, I still believe defense scales into armor nonlinerarly, and that we'll never actually get the formula for calculating it. Just going to have to make do with guesswork and extrapolation I guess.
edit: Btw @Obsid, does a defense set only give 2.1% on your RG? Have you tried it on toons with different base armor values?
I've never seen that post but thanks for sharing it, that's nice to know. Either way, I still believe defense scales into armor nonlinerarly, and that we'll never actually get the formula for calculating it. Just going to have to make do with guesswork and extrapolation I guess.
edit: Btw @Obsid, does a defense set only give 2.1% on your RG? Have you tried it on toons with different base armor values?
I tried it with a few different toons as I was experimenting with armor values, i havent tried them all. Royal Guard had the best of the ones I tried (it was a bit above 2.1%), but it depends a lot on a variety of different values (level/gear), I'm still trying to work through all the possibilities.
Can someone provide like a 3 to 4 sentence summary of this thread. Someone needs to post a cliff notes version of this.
We all want to know why Defense Mods need to be unlocked by a character restriction when Health Mods don't. This has led to intense investigation of when/if Defense Mod Set Bonus would be better than the Health Mod Set Bonus. It was found that prior to the last patch that an armor increase of close to 7% would be needed in most cases and it was determined to be impossible. Since the latest patch it has been found that an increase in armor of as little as 3.33% would do the trick, which was able to be done pre-patch, but sadly it is as difficult to achieve post-patch as the 7% was before.
Defense mods still need work! Seems if they added 10% rather than 5% they would be useful...
@Nich0142 best I can tell, Defense mods are still a bad idea unless you are healing significantly.
HOWEVER, static +defense substats rock, dont count them out, they add a ton of armor. I have a +18 defense substat on a mod that adds as much armor as 3 full defense mod sets.
So right now my STH has a total of +13.9% Defense and +9 Defense giving a total of +3.54% Armor. I'm guessing that 15% increase in Defense from a complete Defense Mod set-up could get at least +3.33% Armor. @Obsid , is STH one that you have tried?
TLDR: After the defense "fix", defense is still only marginally better once we reach protection levels >2x that of health. Practically, just use whatever is more convenient for you.
Fives has one of the highest base armor in the game. So let's use him as the best case example:
The defense set bonus gives 5% defense. We are basically comparing 5% defense to 5% health. Factors to consider are that defense affects both protection and health by mitigating damage. Health % increase only affects the health pool.
The Diamond shaped mod has a fixed defense % bonus which every competitive player will have. Lets assume this is always on the character. Fives has a damage reduction of 27.18% with only this mod equipped.
Adding 5% defense changes the physical damage reduction from 27.18% to 28.06%.
This means before, Fives takes 72.82% of incoming physical damage.
After the set bonus is added, Fives takes 71.94% of incoming physical damage.
This added defense essential means he takes 71.94 / 72.83 = 98.8% of the damage he would otherwise have taken without the set bonus.
This means he his effective hp pool (prot + health) is 1.2% greater.
So for defense to be better under these conditions, 101.2% of health + protection needs to be more than 100% of protection + 105% of health.
When you work out the inequality, the defense is only better once we reach protection levels 3 x that of health. Even with max protection mods, it is almost impossible to reach these levels of protection with fives currently.
Special damage calculations make the ratios even more pronounced since resistance is almost always less than armor by default. Of course, other considerations like % health effects, healing also have an influence.
Btw, 5% defense on fives, equates to about 18 flat defense, it is significantly less for most other toons.
TLDR: Health is technically better in almost all cases. However, when you look at the absolute differences, you are looking at several 100 hp difference in the most extreme case scenarios. Hence, practically, just use whatever is more convenient for you."
Replies
@kartoffelSTAMPF you're not reading all I wrote. First post, yes, but not everything.
If you are referring to the 12-13%figure then, yes, thats anecdotal and IS wrong because it wont always be that. I explain all the math and lack of assumptions further down and will edit my first post to include that when I'm on a computer.
There are holes in my example but not the math explained in a later post. Defense Mods are a better starting point than Health Mods.
good point there are several attacks that ignores deff and attacks that makes deff down like phasma basic
@Bulldog1205 Your highest armored character has a 2% armor increase when going from NOTHING to +15% defense? Perhaps nominally, but you need to check it as a % increase. 2% nominal increase could be 10% as a percentage increase.
I'm not saying YOUR defense Mods are better than YOUR health Mods. I'm saying ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL, +15% defense is a better boost than +15% health IF it results in an armor % increase greater than X.
You keep completely missing the point that people are trying to make. You seem to think people are questioning your maths. They are not.
You are correct in that, at a constant hit level of 6000, 7% Armor is better than 15% Health.
What we are trying to say is that 15% Defence, as a set bonus, only equals around a 2-4% increase to Armor.
The big increases you see in Armor stats comes from secondary flat stats in Defence which you can get from any mod.
As a set, to be on par with health, the defence set bonus would have to double.
It's probably the worst set in the game.
Your Daka example may be similar to the person who brought up the Rex example. I can tell you that Phasma increases in armor % by far more than 7% on just an 11.75% defense bonus: just over 9% to be exact. That constant damage level is irrelevant, you can re-read my edited first post now to see why, and the 7% "rule of thumb" is when protection and health are close in value to one another. It's been removed from the post because people are getting hung up on that as well.
Defense may be a big strike out for some characters, but I'm working right now to show real numbers from my characters in a non-made-up example as to how to use this and what it shows.
I'm not replying any more.
You're not listening to anyone.
I responded to what you said, because I read, comprehended, and formed a response. Just because I basically said, "hold on I'm clarifying what I wrote to help you understand" doesn't mean I'm not listening. I didn't say defense mods are better for Daka, I posted a way to figure out if they are or not. IF what you say is true, then they are not better for Daka. But you take it further and assume everyone's increase is only 2-4% because hers is? Then try to rationalize why my counter example to your claim isn't true?
C'mon, man. I'm listening but I can't believe, just because you said it, that all characters get a 2%-4% increase in armor from 15% defense bonus or that you'd need 41% armor to start with to get a 7% increase. You aren't backing your claims and I know by counter example they are false.
I've made every effort to be clear about what I'm assuming. I'm offering to take more time to show how to use the tool I provided in my edited first post. I get that many have read my initial first post that was based on a made up scenario and are responding to it. I challenge you, if you have not, to read the edited first post (which is a clarification of a post made later in the thread.) It is much less presumptuous in my choice of words (as is the new title) and much more direct about the point I'm trying to make.
Exactly my point. And this is because +%def is one of the only buffs which add their bonus multiplicative. This coupled with the low base defense every char has end up in meaningless buffs.
Ok, this is indeed correct! You end up with X=6.976744186%, at which defense starts to shine.
BUT And this is a big BUT
In order to have X>~7%, i.e. your total characters %defense increased for at least 7%, you would need either a very very high base defense rate already or very very +%defense buffs via mods. Here it is:
a base def of 4% --> needs 175.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 5% --> needs 140.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 6% --> needs 116.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 7% --> needs 100.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 8% --> needs 87.50000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 9% --> needs 77.77778% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 10% --> needs 70.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 11% --> needs 63.63636% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 12% --> needs 58.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 13% --> needs 53.84615% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 14% --> needs 50.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 15% --> needs 46.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 16% --> needs 43.75000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 17% --> needs 41.17647% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 18% --> needs 38.88889% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 19% --> needs 36.84211% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 20% --> needs 35.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 21% --> needs 33.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 22% --> needs 31.81818% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 23% --> needs 30.43478% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 24% --> needs 29.16667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 25% --> needs 28.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 26% --> needs 26.92308% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 27% --> needs 25.92593% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 28% --> needs 25.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 29% --> needs 24.13793% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 30% --> needs 23.33333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 31% --> needs 22.58065% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 32% --> needs 21.87500% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 33% --> needs 21.21212% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 34% --> needs 20.58824% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 35% --> needs 20.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 36% --> needs 19.44444% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 37% --> needs 18.91892% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 38% --> needs 18.42105% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 39% --> needs 17.94872% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 40% --> needs 17.50000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 41% --> needs 17.07317% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 42% --> needs 16.66667% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 43% --> needs 16.27907% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 44% --> needs 15.90909% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 45% --> needs 15.55556% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 46% --> needs 15.21739% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 47% --> needs 14.89362% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 48% --> needs 14.58333% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 49% --> needs 14.28571% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
a base def of 50% --> needs 14.00000% total summed +%def bonuses through mods
So in order to take advantage of this 7% rule of thumb only by using set bonuses, one needs at least a already existing 47% base defense. No char has this!
@kartoffelSTAMPF Where did you come up with all those numbers? Like I mentioned above, I can put an 11.75% defense mod on Phasma, with no other mods equipped, and it increases her armor % by 9.3%.
You all are right. Re-read the first post if interested. A lot of how it was being simply gauged was an over simplification.
[img][/img]
Ignore the hp mods up top and note no mods slotted have any flat or additional defence % value
[img][/img]
2 def mods slotted, 2.5% increase in defence value... Not even a full 1% increase to armor
Now those 2 def mods are replaced by 2 max lvl defence mods for an additional 2.5% increase from the last set
[img][/img]
Less than a percent armor bonus from 2.5% set bonus to 5% set bonus
Now the mod with the defence % primary stat.
[img][/img]
Mod removed 27.8% armor
Mod stats
[img][/img]
With secondary stats 13.5% defence added
[img][/img]
3% armor added from that mod so we can figure that's pretty close to a full max set of defence mods item sets assuming base stats are similar since when I added the mod for defence it added 13.5 and a full mod set would add 15%
So unless I am very wrong about this on this character (5555) a full mod set would add less than 3% armor
Now here's a flat value defence mod
[img][/img]
Mod has 18 defence on it... Let's check the armor increase
[img][/img]
That's almost 3% which was the increase we got from a full set of defence mods
i won't try to explain the math in depth it's not my thing I'm just showing the in game examples.. If I am wrong please correct me but I think it's all sound logic... Defence dosent seem to be the way to go
As an additional fact here's the same GW battle run with 5s and RG the intent being testing defence up stat
(note RG is leader so no extra defence from 5s lead ability)
[img][/img]
Lumi force blade no defence up, armor value is at about 31% 3000 damage
Now defence up
[img][/img]
2500
Same lumi same 5s same attack even just with defence up and we only blocked 500 more damage
I'm sure someone smarter than me can figure out the math behind all of this but at least I can show you the in game comparisons.... Correct me where I'm wrong so we can get a definitive answer on this one gentlemen
I've read your updated post. SO far we do agree that %def needs a buff to be on par with other bonuses. I'm still curious about your observation that %-based increases are computed differently for each char - i will check this (for my tests I've always used one single char). If that's really the case then even more is broken here. I've already mentioned it elsewhere, add to this the fact that def is %-based but def-penetration is absolute, defense is one of the most disguised stats ... that's annoying. We need yo gamble for mods and dont even know how their effects are incorporated exactly.
Anyhow, if you like to do some calculations, i give you a tip: crtitical avoidance. My first research indicates me that this might turn out to be most effective defense buff on mods currently available. So if you like to play with some numbers, go for that ;-)
On high armor and resistance toons...
Vs high crit damage toons with low armor penetration...
Esp with defense up buff...
This is where they should shine, if at all.
Vs a toon with 200+ crit damage (crit damage set plus crit primary) every 1% damage mitigation will reduce crit damage by 2%. Still doesn't sound like a whole lot, but it totally depends on the attacking toons armor penetration and base damage and the targets base armor/resistance.
According to the Developer CapitalMethod, this is working as intended (that people lose armor as they level). This also might be helpful for people trying to translate defense into armor. Here is what he had to say (see post here https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/45f83c/armor_system_rework_suggestion/):
I don't have a Defense Set to test, but using the older numbers people were putting up 3.33% was easy to achieve...that's a bummer, lol. So still didn't quite achieve what could have been
edit: Btw @Obsid, does a defense set only give 2.1% on your RG? Have you tried it on toons with different base armor values?
I tried it with a few different toons as I was experimenting with armor values, i havent tried them all. Royal Guard had the best of the ones I tried (it was a bit above 2.1%), but it depends a lot on a variety of different values (level/gear), I'm still trying to work through all the possibilities.
We all want to know why Defense Mods need to be unlocked by a character restriction when Health Mods don't. This has led to intense investigation of when/if Defense Mod Set Bonus would be better than the Health Mod Set Bonus. It was found that prior to the last patch that an armor increase of close to 7% would be needed in most cases and it was determined to be impossible. Since the latest patch it has been found that an increase in armor of as little as 3.33% would do the trick, which was able to be done pre-patch, but sadly it is as difficult to achieve post-patch as the 7% was before.
Defense mods still need work! Seems if they added 10% rather than 5% they would be useful...
HOWEVER, static +defense substats rock, dont count them out, they add a ton of armor. I have a +18 defense substat on a mod that adds as much armor as 3 full defense mod sets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/4url6m/health_mods_vs_defense_mods/
TLDR: After the defense "fix", defense is still only marginally better once we reach protection levels >2x that of health. Practically, just use whatever is more convenient for you.