Lowering his speed or removing his turn meter will make Poe completely worthless.
I like this new change from CG, you can stun or ability block him a lot easier now, plus we have QGJ to remove taunt and grant offense up.
"Picking on players" has always happened, and it hasn't beencompletely because of team comp. Anyone can beat anyone. Just because your team doesn't have Poe doesn't make it any different. Poe on defense only boosts win rate by a small amount. AI Defense will always be poor. Furthermore, at the top of arena everyone knows the contents of everyone elses teams anyway.
There are plenty of "useless" characters, so why not bloody poe! E.g bane could be fun, different and a great anti Jedi character if his HP didn't make him unplayable. My only thought could be all the whales will start singing if their maxed out poe gets a bit more tweaked...
So your argument is to take a character everyone farmed weeks for and make him unusable? lol.
And you thought the reaction to the Barriss nerf was bad.
Doesn't have to be completely black and white. You can nerf him in ways that make him in line with other tanks -- not above, not below. I don't think anyone wants any character to be totally worthless.
Why does it have to be "in line with other tanks". Why not make QGJ more in line with Ahshoka or Barris? Or Daka more in line with Acolyte? Why not make I-86 more in line with Ugnaut?
I don't like the logic of "it'll be alright new characters will come and counter the meta/be better." Basically saying only the new toons should be viable and everything else becomes obsolete as time goes on. That may keep the whales entertained for a while, but overall I don't think that is healthy game design. What we need is more variety. If there's some clear outliers preventing that, put them back in line, plain and simple.
There are always characters who are better than others in games like this.
In SWGoH, these characters are defined by their speed and damage output.
Imbalance stems only from both of these. The faster characters will always rein supreme, especially those who have high dps or extremely useful crowd control/support roles.
The slowest bracket will never be good in arena with damage output as high as it is right now, even if Poe isn't in the game.
Variety would be about the same OR WORSE.
Poe gives slower characters a chance to be viable, and gives f2p players an option to beat whale teams with the best teams unobtainable to their counterparts.
I don't see why you're complaining. Many players who can get rank 1 now never would be able to without Poe.
Yes, some toons will naturally be stronger, but that's no excuse to have only one archetype dominate the meta and not care about pushing for better balance.
Poe is not the only problem in pvp, I agree, but he exacerbates it. Seeing the entire enemy team go before your own team is not fun at all. Yes, it gives weaker teams a chance but that's because it's so reliant on first turn rng.
I don't like the logic of "it'll be alright new characters will come and counter the meta/be better." Basically saying only the new toons should be viable and everything else becomes obsolete as time goes on. That may keep the whales entertained for a while, but overall I don't think that is healthy game design. What we need is more variety. If there's some clear outliers preventing that, put them back in line, plain and simple.
There are always characters who are better than others in games like this.
In SWGoH, these characters are defined by their speed and damage output.
Imbalance stems only from both of these. The faster characters will always rein supreme, especially those who have high dps or extremely useful crowd control/support roles.
The slowest bracket will never be good in arena with damage output as high as it is right now, even if Poe isn't in the game.
Variety would be about the same OR WORSE.
Poe gives slower characters a chance to be viable, and gives f2p players an option to beat whale teams with the best teams unobtainable to their counterparts.
I don't see why you're complaining. Many players who can get rank 1 now never would be able to without Poe.
Poe is not the only problem in pvp, I agree, but he exacerbates it. Seeing the entire enemy team go before your own team is not fun at all. Yes, it gives weaker teams a chance but that's because it's so reliant on first turn rng.
It's not fun at all, that's why people complain.
And yet most of those characters you're complaining about would still go first without Poe.
Speed tying is a thing, yes, and people were frustrated about that before Poe.
In a world without meter reduction we'd just see a shift in meta where the turn one speed characters would be the only viable ones, maybe some bulky tier twos would sneak in. The variety of characters you'd see would be even fewer.
Poe is annoying, sure, but he's very beatable. The right team doesn't just lose if their Poe doesn't go first. And in that type of shell you wouldn't even need Poe in the first place. He's a FOTM character, and in my opinion a very welcome one. The changes CG has proposed will make him a lot more vulnerable and I'm interested to see how the meta shifts.
We all know Poe is most dominant force in the galaxy. The nerd developers use Poe on their squad and so does all else.
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my picture go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will nerf you.
My name is cosmicturtle333, aka CT-333, aka Threes.
Poe already protects his squishies being the fastest taunter in the game. Why does he also need to reduce enemy turn meter? There is no form of counter play when all 5 of their team goes before one of yours. In the hand of AI it's not as bad, because RNG could be lucky and they don't focus someone. But in the hands of a player, they can breeze to 1st place no problem.
My 2 solutions would be:
1) Remove the turn meter reduction. Someone who outspeeds majority of characters and taunts shouldn't be allowed to remove all enemy turn meter, thus enabling his team to outspeed everyone turn one.
2) Reduce the taunt duration to 1 turn. If he is supposed to be this "Act fast and take the lead" kind of character, why does he have a safety net of a 2 turn taunt? If they can't get the job done in that first turn, then the opponent should have the right to a counter attack.
Guys it's safe to admit that the current meta is a coin flip meta with single burst dps.
Denying this fact would be foolish and obstinate.
Poe is the only reason why the meta is the way it is right now.
@Elyndria , if you read my suggestion, I would still keep his speed. No shiat poe and friends can be defeated. But when the meta becomes repetitive and random due to heads or tails. Tactics, synergies and strategy becomes limited. My suggestion would still make Poe viable but open up doors at the same time.
@Toolio , why are you trying to divert this argument towards a whale vs ftp narrative? Stop
His speed is nearly irrelevant now because of the counters available.
The aoe turn meter reduction is necessary for him to be viable in any way.
Also, nerfing Poe only closes doors, as I said in my above post. It takes the option of using slightly slower characters away, such as Droids, Old Ben, etc.
Wth. No. Said no one but you.
It is because he outspeeds the tier 2 and above toons AND GOES ON to use turn meter redction therefore giving TIER 1 SPEED BURST DPS to carry on their job.
Which part of this speed, turn meter reduction and single burst dps combination of the Meta that you don't understand?
No one is expecting Poe to live after the first round and join in the DPS party. His purpose is to decoy and absorb. Even if you remove his turn meter reduction, HIS SPEED will allow him to taunt before most toons if RNG is in his favor.
You give him 90 speed and tell me he is still useful with his turn meter reduc. You won't. Because you can't.
Lowering his speed or removing his turn meter will make Poe completely worthless.
I like this new change from CG, you can stun or ability block him a lot easier now, plus we have QGJ to remove taunt and grant offense up.
"Picking on players" has always happened, and it hasn't beencompletely because of team comp. Anyone can beat anyone. Just because your team doesn't have Poe doesn't make it any different. Poe on defense only boosts win rate by a small amount. AI Defense will always be poor. Furthermore, at the top of arena everyone knows the contents of everyone elses teams anyway.
There are plenty of "useless" characters, so why not bloody poe! E.g bane could be fun, different and a great anti Jedi character if his HP didn't make him unplayable. My only thought could be all the whales will start singing if their maxed out poe gets a bit more tweaked...
So your argument is to take a character everyone farmed weeks for and make him unusable? lol.
And you thought the reaction to the Barriss nerf was bad.
Weeks? You should try FTP
I did
I took Poe from a wee little 3 star to 7 stars all without chromium. This was before I knew just how important he'd be.
As more characters come out many will be options to Poe, many will counter Poe, many will be faster than Poe. New characters always get the fancy new stuff.
Once i read this i pretty much ignored anything else you had to say. Yes there are kind of some counters to poe, but I dont see why some people do not see a problem with having to farm a whole team just to deal with 1 CHARACTER, not even a specific type of but 1 character. I guess we will just have to join them or hope that the new character has something to help with ppe but i doubt it
I'm done responding to ignorant posts based on bias.
Poe is fine, get over it.
i think you're the one who is bias. you don't want to nerf poe because you have him!
anyway i don't care if they nerf him or not. because i am curently happy in my rank
Does any of you actually believe that dev's do not know what people's problem is with Poe??
They are the designers of this freaking game, I guarantee you they know.
By doing a slight nurf on tenacity and expose, it just means they disagree with nurf Poe's taunt, so they throw you a bone on something less significant.
As they said they read every post about Poe and I believe CG team actively aware of the problem of turn meter removal. By my logical assumption, I guess they have made tests after test showing that the turn meter removal does not dominating the whole fight.
But why we all find it so difficult to go against a Poe+Glass Cannon team? It is because we are doing it all wrong. We confront them with similar glass cannons builds which are easily defeated by Poe builds.
Instead the tanky AOE team is the only answer and we have more and more players confirming this will work.
But hey, some might say, I can deal with tanky AOE with blahblahblah. That's true but not the point! Every build should be countered by someone else unless this won't be a rock scissors paper anymore and yes it is the answer. By the time more people getting a hand of tanky AOE, Poe+glass cannons build will be no more.
In addition, People should stop advocating others to pursue glass cannons like GS/IG-86/Rey for their very first end game roster team because it will be too late to switch if you invest everything on glass cannons and find it difficult against Poe teams.
I don't like Poe, but I'm farming him right now. OP or not, I guess everyone agrees that not having him in the team is going to be a huge disadvantage. Now that you'll be able to see the enemy lineup, be honest. Who are you going to attack more, a team with or without Poe?
I, for one, would like to avoid him as much as possible. I would also like to have him on my team so that I avoid as many attacks on me.
Does that make him require a nerf? He is the single most important factor in deciding which team is going to be attacked, as the meta stands now. Forget all other things like if he can be beat or not and honestly reply that it's not true.
Let the pre-nerf whine begin! This is the reason devs don't wanna release patch notes because everyone is coming up with "their opinion" and "their ideas" again. Also "everyone" is disappointed (again).
We cried enough over Poe. Please stop otherwise the next time another update launches, they will think twice before posting it around here again.
Try it out first, perhaps things got better. I already notice a big difference in Poe winning chance now I'm fully geared, starred and lvl 70.
439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
Should just change the turn meter removal from bad guys to +turn meter to good guys. The turn meter removal was what ensured the bad guys had another whole turn. At least with +turn meter they'll still have to pray to rngesus. Making Poe more rng dependent could create more room for other heroes.
We all know Poe is most dominant force in the galaxy. The nerd developers use Poe on their squad and so does all else.
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my picture go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will nerf you.
@ZarAzi
I'm already in the same camp as you are I'm not gonna advertise my vids anymore but if you do some profile clicking you might find out I'm not a fan of Poe either.
Anyway, today I'm feeling less toxic than yesterday so I'll try to stay away from the Poe topics.
439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
Lowering his speed or removing his turn meter will make Poe completely worthless.....
No, it would make him competitive. Now he is impossible to stun, remove taunt or apply heal block. If they lower his tenacity a bit, it doesn't make much more difference. It will still be high than any other character.
With his speed and turn meter he is so imba, Even if he survive just for one round, at least one of your toons are dead and the match is lost.
I literally losing 99% arena matches where poe is. And there is no difference if I trying to change formation (I have 7* Lumi, dooku, sid, phasma, JC, 6* chewi, asajj, daka), no one can compete against this wall where all dmg dealers are hidden behind.
Lately Poe is easier to beat. The one shot potential is lower because people now getting maxed out. I also think that at level 80, the one shot potential will be even lower. If we start nerfing now it might turn out to be as useful as the barriss nerf was. When my 4* Poe taunts second vs his 7* Poe, I still win. I'll make more vids because that 99% you speak of is not true. Currently I win over 50% vs Poe matchups.
Poe Dameron
Poe's high-Tenacity gear upgrades after the level cap increase, coupled with his Unique ability, allowed him to substantially outperform other Tanks.
@duffmc81 You're right though - this should really say, "Poe's 143 speed, which allows to tie for chance to move first with anyone in the game, coupled with his Unique ability...."
I'm not saying whether to nerf him or not, but either @EA_Jesse and team missed the point, or this is intentional wordsmithing to make us feel better about it.
The dev team said (in reddit) that there is no speed tier. This does not match our casual observation about 142 vs 143+ speed, but that's the devs' position sbout the issue. Might be related to the point of view about Poe. Maybe we are wrong sbout the speed issue. Or maybe the devs are.
Poe Dameron
Poe's high-Tenacity gear upgrades after the level cap increase, coupled with his Unique ability, allowed him to substantially outperform other Tanks. In addition, the high chance to Expose enemies with Resistance Bravado made it reliable for him to secure a huge advantage for his team on the first turn. After these changes, Poe still has far more Tenacity than any other unit, and still has the only currently available Area-of-Effect Expose ability, even if it is less reliable, so we are confident that his unique role as a high-risk, high-reward Tank remains intact.
As an additional note: the changes to his gear requirements were made only on Tiers II and III in order to minimize the disruption to players currently trying to equip and upgrade Poe.
Expose chance reduced by 15% at all ranks
Reduced Tenacity on Unique ability from 15-35% to 10-22%
First off, I'm really not trying to be combative with this post...
So, as you can see (and have seen), there are a lot of feelings about Poe. You've made it clear that you read the forums, take user feedback to heart, and respond with actionable changes -- which is amazing, and I hope we are not taking it for granted.
But it's because of this -- the fact that we know you read these forums -- that maybe a lot of us are genuinely perplexed about what's going on here. A lot of people were upset about Poe before and a lot of people proposed some very valid solutions. You knew this well. New update notes come out, and we see two things that appear to actually worsen the situation (1) not really a nerf, and (2) "skirt-lifting" in Arena allows non-Poe teams to filter to get picked on. Maybe that was not the intention, but that is how it is being interpreted, and the people that are making those interpretations are not dense.
What's done is done, the update is what it is, but I was thinking what might be helpful and what might truly benefit not only us, but you as well, is a bit more context on the decision making here.
Are we all dense, and not seeing a very simply solution to the problem? (would LOVE for that to be the case!)
Are these changes supposed to be the yin to another set of changes's yang, and we're not putting 2 and 2 together?
Are we missing a broader point here?
Again, not trying to be combative, genuinely curious. At it's core, this boils down to the lack of ability to reconcile the fact that we know (and love!) that you take forum feedback to heart, v. what appears to be (on the surface) a non-response or possibly even worsening of the situation.
I certainly don't expect you to need to answer every whine under the sun, and don't blame you if you don't answer this one, but my sense is this is an extenuating circumstance.
Well there's been 2 sides to the argument. A lot of people, myself included feel he is not broken and only needed a minor change, which he received. At every stage in the game, players have complained over x,y,z hero being broken. Dooku was the flavor of the month, then Bariss (who they ruined with nerfs), now it's Poe, and next month, people will whine over Rey being able to one shot characters or GS being OP or maybe QGJ. The reality is most of the team compositions are beatable, yet players will continue to complain if they are losing to a character, when their team is often not as strong. The tenacity nerf now allows Poe to get stunned/ ability blocked before his taunt. The expose nerf will mean your team will survive the initial onslaught and if you have healers, win a game of endurance. Other characters who are also used in Poe teams (Phasma and FOTP) will also be toned down now. You haven't even played the new update, I think the developers made a great move. Please try to wait for the update before you continue complaining - he's beatable now and will have more weaknesses post patch
Oh, and if Poe loses his turn meter reduction or speed, the meta will become 5 turn 1 attackers - Rey, GS, Dooku, Sid, Leia and some Hoth Scout. Maybe some QGJ and Phasma thrown in the mix. Sounds even worse to me
Replies
Why does it have to be "in line with other tanks". Why not make QGJ more in line with Ahshoka or Barris? Or Daka more in line with Acolyte? Why not make I-86 more in line with Ugnaut?
Yes, some toons will naturally be stronger, but that's no excuse to have only one archetype dominate the meta and not care about pushing for better balance.
Poe is not the only problem in pvp, I agree, but he exacerbates it. Seeing the entire enemy team go before your own team is not fun at all. Yes, it gives weaker teams a chance but that's because it's so reliant on first turn rng.
It's not fun at all, that's why people complain.
Just ignore. I've given up long time ago.
And yet most of those characters you're complaining about would still go first without Poe.
Speed tying is a thing, yes, and people were frustrated about that before Poe.
In a world without meter reduction we'd just see a shift in meta where the turn one speed characters would be the only viable ones, maybe some bulky tier twos would sneak in. The variety of characters you'd see would be even fewer.
Poe is annoying, sure, but he's very beatable. The right team doesn't just lose if their Poe doesn't go first. And in that type of shell you wouldn't even need Poe in the first place. He's a FOTM character, and in my opinion a very welcome one. The changes CG has proposed will make him a lot more vulnerable and I'm interested to see how the meta shifts.
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my picture go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will nerf you.
My 2 solutions would be:
1) Remove the turn meter reduction. Someone who outspeeds majority of characters and taunts shouldn't be allowed to remove all enemy turn meter, thus enabling his team to outspeed everyone turn one.
2) Reduce the taunt duration to 1 turn. If he is supposed to be this "Act fast and take the lead" kind of character, why does he have a safety net of a 2 turn taunt? If they can't get the job done in that first turn, then the opponent should have the right to a counter attack.
Thoughts?
Wth. No. Said no one but you.
It is because he outspeeds the tier 2 and above toons AND GOES ON to use turn meter redction therefore giving TIER 1 SPEED BURST DPS to carry on their job.
Which part of this speed, turn meter reduction and single burst dps combination of the Meta that you don't understand?
No one is expecting Poe to live after the first round and join in the DPS party. His purpose is to decoy and absorb. Even if you remove his turn meter reduction, HIS SPEED will allow him to taunt before most toons if RNG is in his favor.
You give him 90 speed and tell me he is still useful with his turn meter reduc. You won't. Because you can't.
Once i read this i pretty much ignored anything else you had to say. Yes there are kind of some counters to poe, but I dont see why some people do not see a problem with having to farm a whole team just to deal with 1 CHARACTER, not even a specific type of but 1 character. I guess we will just have to join them or hope that the new character has something to help with ppe but i doubt it
Poe is fine, get over it.
Said the ignorant one.
Bye Felicia
i think you're the one who is bias. you don't want to nerf poe because you have him!
anyway i don't care if they nerf him or not. because i am curently happy in my rank
They are the designers of this freaking game, I guarantee you they know.
By doing a slight nurf on tenacity and expose, it just means they disagree with nurf Poe's taunt, so they throw you a bone on something less significant.
Quit complaining already.
But why we all find it so difficult to go against a Poe+Glass Cannon team? It is because we are doing it all wrong. We confront them with similar glass cannons builds which are easily defeated by Poe builds.
Instead the tanky AOE team is the only answer and we have more and more players confirming this will work.
But hey, some might say, I can deal with tanky AOE with blahblahblah. That's true but not the point! Every build should be countered by someone else unless this won't be a rock scissors paper anymore and yes it is the answer. By the time more people getting a hand of tanky AOE, Poe+glass cannons build will be no more.
In addition, People should stop advocating others to pursue glass cannons like GS/IG-86/Rey for their very first end game roster team because it will be too late to switch if you invest everything on glass cannons and find it difficult against Poe teams.
I, for one, would like to avoid him as much as possible. I would also like to have him on my team so that I avoid as many attacks on me.
Does that make him require a nerf? He is the single most important factor in deciding which team is going to be attacked, as the meta stands now. Forget all other things like if he can be beat or not and honestly reply that it's not true.
We cried enough over Poe. Please stop otherwise the next time another update launches, they will think twice before posting it around here again.
Try it out first, perhaps things got better. I already notice a big difference in Poe winning chance now I'm fully geared, starred and lvl 70.
Wait till yall get on board the coin flip meta. Till then I'll be waiting for you guys at that other end.
When that happens, don't be coming to the forums saying we didn't woke yall about this cause by then I'll be here saying "I told you so"
Dammit Qui Gon why yo do dis??
I'm already in the same camp as you are
Anyway, today I'm feeling less toxic than yesterday so I'll try to stay away from the Poe topics.
No, it would make him competitive. Now he is impossible to stun, remove taunt or apply heal block. If they lower his tenacity a bit, it doesn't make much more difference. It will still be high than any other character.
With his speed and turn meter he is so imba, Even if he survive just for one round, at least one of your toons are dead and the match is lost.
I literally losing 99% arena matches where poe is. And there is no difference if I trying to change formation (I have 7* Lumi, dooku, sid, phasma, JC, 6* chewi, asajj, daka), no one can compete against this wall where all dmg dealers are hidden behind.
Lately Poe is easier to beat. The one shot potential is lower because people now getting maxed out. I also think that at level 80, the one shot potential will be even lower. If we start nerfing now it might turn out to be as useful as the barriss nerf was. When my 4* Poe taunts second vs his 7* Poe, I still win. I'll make more vids because that 99% you speak of is not true. Currently I win over 50% vs Poe matchups.
Well there's been 2 sides to the argument. A lot of people, myself included feel he is not broken and only needed a minor change, which he received. At every stage in the game, players have complained over x,y,z hero being broken. Dooku was the flavor of the month, then Bariss (who they ruined with nerfs), now it's Poe, and next month, people will whine over Rey being able to one shot characters or GS being OP or maybe QGJ. The reality is most of the team compositions are beatable, yet players will continue to complain if they are losing to a character, when their team is often not as strong. The tenacity nerf now allows Poe to get stunned/ ability blocked before his taunt. The expose nerf will mean your team will survive the initial onslaught and if you have healers, win a game of endurance. Other characters who are also used in Poe teams (Phasma and FOTP) will also be toned down now. You haven't even played the new update, I think the developers made a great move. Please try to wait for the update before you continue complaining - he's beatable now and will have more weaknesses post patch
Oh, and if Poe loses his turn meter reduction or speed, the meta will become 5 turn 1 attackers - Rey, GS, Dooku, Sid, Leia and some Hoth Scout. Maybe some QGJ and Phasma thrown in the mix. Sounds even worse to me