It was never needed to improve heroic rewards
The actual Intention was to give t3 t4 t5 and t6 more useful loot for their time Investment and Reduce heroic to a more reasonable level
Because no matter what you say it was completely overdropping g12 pieces
So make your math again for t5 and t6 and let us know the difference for the actual targets of improvement
But I think people are forgetting one factor. Those extra guild tokens allow us to purchase gear we want/need. Sometimes I rather get the tokens than gear I already have 2k.
It was never needed to improve heroic rewards
The actual Intention was to give t3 t4 t5 and t6 more useful loot for their time Investment and Reduce heroic to a more reasonable level
Because no matter what you say it was completely overdropping g12 pieces
So make your math again for t5 and t6 and let us know the difference for the actual targets of improvement
Did it improve below heroic?
"To our Heroic raiders: please take some time over the next couple of weeks and take a look at the aggregate GP lift among your guildmates... and the rate of growth in ALL players' ability to complete the raid, over the coming weeks"
That was from CG yesterday. Just saying the implication is that there was going to be a net increase in heroic.
But I think people are forgetting one factor. Those extra guild tokens allow us to purchase gear we want/need. Sometimes I rather get the tokens than gear I already have 2k.
But they don't come close to making up for the lost value imo. Granted, I do think there is more value in having "free" currency than it being tied up in gear that you may not need. But some of these cuts we are seeing are deep. Fractions. What's an acceptable ratio of gear given compared to getting it's currency equivalent to spend freely? I'm not totally sure. Off the cuff, I say 75%. Certainly not what we are seeing right now though.
What you really mean is you can’t provide before and after photos to show we are still getting rewards that correlates to the effort required for the raid.
You admitted your mistake but offered no resolution. All the trust that had been established over the last couple of weeks has been washed away.
Honest and sincere communication is all most of us want. Excellent job holding true to the new style of communication you’ve began here - one based on respect, honesty, and accountability.
First off, good job @Maegor for all your hard work. You deserve respect for this impressive chart and all your data gathering.
Howeve, i believe we are forgetting something important: there is no more challenge gear in this raid! I know quantities have gone down but overall quality has improved!
(My guild only runs t4 and t5 so if i am way off base on heroic rewards I apologize)
@Jedi_Bane
The only challenge gear you were getting in heroic was from the tank raid. Trust me, every heroic raider would take back the old format in a heartbeat. It's weird to say it like this, but we were already conditioned in getting tank raid challenge gear, so it didn't sting too much. And seeing a full g12 + a healthy chance at getting additional partial full and tank fulls (top 3 boxes were getting 3, 4 and 5 full pieces, though never all full g12's, regularly), made up for seeing 70 tank challenge gear.
tl:dr - heroic raiders weren't opening the box and getting disappointed with tank challenge gear. We got disappointed if we didn't get a full g12.
It was never needed to improve heroic rewards
The actual Intention was to give t3 t4 t5 and t6 more useful loot for their time Investment and Reduce heroic to a more reasonable level
Because no matter what you say it was completely overdropping g12 pieces
So make your math again for t5 and t6 and let us know the difference for the actual targets of improvement
Did it improve below heroic?
@Balthasar666
I don't have any data on t5 or t6. Some I've heard from are ok with the changes, others say they are worse.
Tell you what, you collect the data from pre change and post change, and I'll run the same spreadsheet.
Thanks for commenting on this, but until changes are done in game, you're communication will not compensate for all of the anger that is currently on these forums.
You clearly should not have pushed this update if the rewards aren't ready to be implemented yet... you should have waited until the next gear pieces are introduced. In the mean time you've left us with this bowl of scrap to demotivate us from pursuing the Sith raid.
"We wanted to post before and after reward values, but based on the spreadsheet someone already posted showing just how badly we nerfed rewards, we need to do a lot more brainstorming on how to spin this."
@CG_Carrie, please don’t even bother with your screenshot of before and after from your game data. Why? Because based on your track record, why on earth should any of us believe you are not lying to us again? This is what happens when you’ve lost all your trust with the community.
That was an honest apology, and kudos to taking personal responsibility. However, if the implication is that we should wait and see, I repeat what I said in another thread ... I will do just that. If you are right, and I see the proof in the pudding, I'll resume supporting the game with vault purchases. Until then I will patiently wait and see.
@CG_Carrie Thank you for the explanation. I'm sorry you have to deal with so many childish tantrums concerning issues like this. I think you guys are doing a top notch job trying to keep everyone happy.
Please excuse my bluntness. So, the next two weeks we all have to suffer from a mistake of "jumping the gun" on the decision to half rollout a change to rewards in the HARDEST piece of the game that people, myself included, spent a good chunk of money on to have the toons necessary to beat this "not very fun" campaign that we should feel "a sense of accomplishment" in beating?
I'm sorry, I'm normally in support of devs and the business but NOT when mistakes are made and acknowledged, but not acted on immediately to reverse, a.k.a hotfix. This give us two weeks of crap rewards and we'll give you a few days of good rewards before we take them back again and give you something you've never seen the value of approach is absurd.
Rant over...still not a happy PAYING customer.
Still waiting on that edit forum profile setting so I can change my name...
I appreciate your update, clarity and assuming responsiblity. Can I offer an suggestion?
Dump the entire random reward generation system and award us a proportionate number of various store credits so we can shop for what we need and not be disappointed by low quality, low quantity or horrible RNG where a top performer gets worse gear then a mid or low performer.
Screw you guys. You realized it was too good and people wouldn’t spend enough money on gear anymore. Have fun with all the spenders quitting the game and you feeling the effect of no spending that way. This post will maybe last two seconds, because of all your cronies monitoring the site and making it impossible to read and come to the forums to see anything of use, but it needed to be said. Bait and switch as always and now I can’t wait for the next panic farm to make people spend again because of the lost profits
Leaders and officers try and urge members to hit the raid. We started this morning after the previous one finished and currently 11/50 have done so. I'd wager HAAT tomorrow sees almost a full showing.
Players wanna see their efforts rewarded, regardless of tier level.
@CG_Carrie your excuses keep getting worse and worse and actually puts a pit in my stomach knowing how much I like this game but at the same time realizing that the game is being controlled by such dishonest people. The mass exodus of the playerbase is literally going to make your head spin. Truly is likely the saddest and most disheartening day in the history of the SWGOH holo tables.
@CG_Carrie Thank you for the explanation. I'm sorry you have to deal with so many childish tantrums concerning issues like this. I think you guys are doing a top notch job trying to keep everyone happy.
Some of us have been reasonable in our complaints. I started off defending them and after seeing a reasonable amount of screenshots I had to withdraw my enthusiasm. I speak with a large enough cross-section of players so I'll know soon enough how valid this follow-up is. A few of us actually use statistical methodology in our real life careers so I don't need to rely on their data.
At an aggregate level (meaning total for the guild but not necessarily for every individual in it), we wanted to boost the rewards that all members of the guild were acquiring, while addressing some quality of life asks (namely the removal of challenge gear).
The problem is that we have data stating it actually made it worse overall, not just for the top 20. And make no mistake, it is SIGNIFICANTLY worse.
If the end game is that these rewards are supposed to be amazing, they should have been left alone until that could happen, because they were amazing, and now it feels like a kick in the stomach.
For perspective on that last statement: We just finished a heroic (it was the first success for this guild) and we came right down to the wire, with less than 15 minutes left, but we did it. The entire guild individually spent hours (not an exaggeration) over the course of those two days to make this happen. And then getting rewards that were on par with Pit rewards was just so utterly demoralizing. It’s honestly fairly insulting. Consider how difficult this raid is and the amount of time required to clear it even after it’s on farm, and to get junk at the end was just... awful.
At an aggregate level (meaning total for the guild but not necessarily for every individual in it), we wanted to boost the rewards that all members of the guild were acquiring, while addressing some quality of life asks (namely the removal of challenge gear).
Why do you continue to push this glaringly false narrative. In no way, shape, or form (aggregate or not) were the rewards increased for heroic guilds. They were completely sliced into a fraction of what we got across the board. By about 500% at least. Even looking at the guild as a whole (which is a terrible way to dole out rewards anyway that no one asked for) they were severely decreased. Even adding in a few new g12 salvage, or even adding in a 100% chance of a g12 drop, still won’t make them anywhere close to what we were getting. That’s how severely the rewards were nerfed. Stop insulting us and call it what it is. You’ll retain more players that way. Call it a nerf because you want to sell the gear for real money instead of rewarding the end game content properly. Roll the unwanted and unwarranted change back or you’re going to kill the game. People are dropping like flies already and they are seeing through the bait and switch pattern you guys do all the time. Just call it a mistake and roll it back and stop trying to act like it’s something it’s not. And maybe you’ll still keep the heroic players playing at the same level. Or they’re going to do what half of my whale guild is already planning and going completely f2p or putting the game down entirely. This isn’t some silly threat or anything, it’s a stark fact because of the incredibly bad game management you’ve displayed.
Please excuse my bluntness. So, the next two weeks we all have to suffer from a mistake of "jumping the gun" on the decision to half rollout a change to rewards in the HARDEST piece of the game that people, myself included, spent a good chunk of money on to have the toons necessary to beat this "not very fun" campaign that we should feel "a sense of accomplishment" in beating?
I'm sorry, I'm normally in support of devs and the business but NOT when mistakes are made and acknowledged, but not acted on immediately to reverse, a.k.a hotfix. This give us two weeks of **** rewards and we'll give you a few days of good rewards before we take them back again and give you something you've never seen the value of approach is absurd.
Rant over...still not a happy PAYING customer.
You should get a refund. You paid for something just like anything else you’d normally pay for and are entitled to a refund when something like this happens. You wouldn’t keep a broken Xbox controller would you? No, you’d return it. Do the same here.
Oh, and let’s not forget, the scoring is so bugged that we had a guy with a legitimate 500k score (46th place) finished 5th because the game randomly gave him a 10M run. Maybe rather than screwing us out of hard earned rewards you should fix the thing first.
many screenshots does not represents rewards Because of chance.
(More or less what you wrote).
First of all, I have a master in Statistics, so I guess I can understand what randomness means.
Back to the point, I agree that screenshots might be deceptive, however 40% drop of the single gear class we require is too low: the variance of drop are maximal around 50% (see zeta mates).
It is expected that the same 4 players in my guild won’t receive a full G12 gear for 5 raids (3 weeks). So for 3 weeks a few guildmates will try their hardest to collect useless rewards. This is tough to keep them motivated.
Get back to 100% on the full pieces, it won’t break your economy and make everyone happy.
@CG_Carrie I appreciate the effort you're expending, and what I say is truly with all due respect.
Your entire argument has no legs to stand on. You say the previous rewards system was unhealthy for the game because the people completing heroic would get too much advantage from all the gear value received.
Then you are trying to convince us the new rewards system gives more gear than the previous one (on a full guild level). If it's true (which it isn't without completely ignoring the inherent value of the gear, and focusing solely on number of pieces received I imagine.[side note, did you know 36 pennies is worth less than 2 quarters? But I digress])
Anyway, if it's true that we're getting more now, how is that more healthy based on your previous assertion?
Replies
The actual Intention was to give t3 t4 t5 and t6 more useful loot for their time Investment and Reduce heroic to a more reasonable level
Because no matter what you say it was completely overdropping g12 pieces
So make your math again for t5 and t6 and let us know the difference for the actual targets of improvement
Did it improve below heroic?
But I think people are forgetting one factor. Those extra guild tokens allow us to purchase gear we want/need. Sometimes I rather get the tokens than gear I already have 2k.
"To our Heroic raiders: please take some time over the next couple of weeks and take a look at the aggregate GP lift among your guildmates... and the rate of growth in ALL players' ability to complete the raid, over the coming weeks"
That was from CG yesterday. Just saying the implication is that there was going to be a net increase in heroic.
But they don't come close to making up for the lost value imo. Granted, I do think there is more value in having "free" currency than it being tied up in gear that you may not need. But some of these cuts we are seeing are deep. Fractions. What's an acceptable ratio of gear given compared to getting it's currency equivalent to spend freely? I'm not totally sure. Off the cuff, I say 75%. Certainly not what we are seeing right now though.
You admitted your mistake but offered no resolution. All the trust that had been established over the last couple of weeks has been washed away.
Honest and sincere communication is all most of us want. Excellent job holding true to the new style of communication you’ve began here - one based on respect, honesty, and accountability.
Best,
Mikayas
@Jedi_Bane
The only challenge gear you were getting in heroic was from the tank raid. Trust me, every heroic raider would take back the old format in a heartbeat. It's weird to say it like this, but we were already conditioned in getting tank raid challenge gear, so it didn't sting too much. And seeing a full g12 + a healthy chance at getting additional partial full and tank fulls (top 3 boxes were getting 3, 4 and 5 full pieces, though never all full g12's, regularly), made up for seeing 70 tank challenge gear.
tl:dr - heroic raiders weren't opening the box and getting disappointed with tank challenge gear. We got disappointed if we didn't get a full g12.
@Balthasar666
I don't have any data on t5 or t6. Some I've heard from are ok with the changes, others say they are worse.
Tell you what, you collect the data from pre change and post change, and I'll run the same spreadsheet.
You clearly should not have pushed this update if the rewards aren't ready to be implemented yet... you should have waited until the next gear pieces are introduced. In the mean time you've left us with this bowl of scrap to demotivate us from pursuing the Sith raid.
Fool us once shame on you, fool us twice ...
because for all my top-3 ranks in the past i got only **** rewards.
i don‘t need the frustration and i can use my time better. perhaps i get a full gear piece...
btw. pit and haat will only see my zero in the future and please don‘t change a thing in the old raids!
I'm sorry, I'm normally in support of devs and the business but NOT when mistakes are made and acknowledged, but not acted on immediately to reverse, a.k.a hotfix. This give us two weeks of crap rewards and we'll give you a few days of good rewards before we take them back again and give you something you've never seen the value of approach is absurd.
Rant over...still not a happy PAYING customer.
Dump the entire random reward generation system and award us a proportionate number of various store credits so we can shop for what we need and not be disappointed by low quality, low quantity or horrible RNG where a top performer gets worse gear then a mid or low performer.
Leaders and officers try and urge members to hit the raid. We started this morning after the previous one finished and currently 11/50 have done so. I'd wager HAAT tomorrow sees almost a full showing.
Players wanna see their efforts rewarded, regardless of tier level.
I hope common sense reigns soon.
Some of us have been reasonable in our complaints. I started off defending them and after seeing a reasonable amount of screenshots I had to withdraw my enthusiasm. I speak with a large enough cross-section of players so I'll know soon enough how valid this follow-up is. A few of us actually use statistical methodology in our real life careers so I don't need to rely on their data.
The problem is that we have data stating it actually made it worse overall, not just for the top 20. And make no mistake, it is SIGNIFICANTLY worse.
If the end game is that these rewards are supposed to be amazing, they should have been left alone until that could happen, because they were amazing, and now it feels like a kick in the stomach.
For perspective on that last statement: We just finished a heroic (it was the first success for this guild) and we came right down to the wire, with less than 15 minutes left, but we did it. The entire guild individually spent hours (not an exaggeration) over the course of those two days to make this happen. And then getting rewards that were on par with Pit rewards was just so utterly demoralizing. It’s honestly fairly insulting. Consider how difficult this raid is and the amount of time required to clear it even after it’s on farm, and to get junk at the end was just... awful.
Why do you continue to push this glaringly false narrative. In no way, shape, or form (aggregate or not) were the rewards increased for heroic guilds. They were completely sliced into a fraction of what we got across the board. By about 500% at least. Even looking at the guild as a whole (which is a terrible way to dole out rewards anyway that no one asked for) they were severely decreased. Even adding in a few new g12 salvage, or even adding in a 100% chance of a g12 drop, still won’t make them anywhere close to what we were getting. That’s how severely the rewards were nerfed. Stop insulting us and call it what it is. You’ll retain more players that way. Call it a nerf because you want to sell the gear for real money instead of rewarding the end game content properly. Roll the unwanted and unwarranted change back or you’re going to kill the game. People are dropping like flies already and they are seeing through the bait and switch pattern you guys do all the time. Just call it a mistake and roll it back and stop trying to act like it’s something it’s not. And maybe you’ll still keep the heroic players playing at the same level. Or they’re going to do what half of my whale guild is already planning and going completely f2p or putting the game down entirely. This isn’t some silly threat or anything, it’s a stark fact because of the incredibly bad game management you’ve displayed.
You should get a refund. You paid for something just like anything else you’d normally pay for and are entitled to a refund when something like this happens. You wouldn’t keep a broken Xbox controller would you? No, you’d return it. Do the same here.
I would like to discuss about:
(More or less what you wrote).
First of all, I have a master in Statistics, so I guess I can understand what randomness means.
Back to the point, I agree that screenshots might be deceptive, however 40% drop of the single gear class we require is too low: the variance of drop are maximal around 50% (see zeta mates).
It is expected that the same 4 players in my guild won’t receive a full G12 gear for 5 raids (3 weeks). So for 3 weeks a few guildmates will try their hardest to collect useless rewards. This is tough to keep them motivated.
Get back to 100% on the full pieces, it won’t break your economy and make everyone happy.
Your entire argument has no legs to stand on. You say the previous rewards system was unhealthy for the game because the people completing heroic would get too much advantage from all the gear value received.
Then you are trying to convince us the new rewards system gives more gear than the previous one (on a full guild level). If it's true (which it isn't without completely ignoring the inherent value of the gear, and focusing solely on number of pieces received I imagine.[side note, did you know 36 pennies is worth less than 2 quarters? But I digress])
Anyway, if it's true that we're getting more now, how is that more healthy based on your previous assertion?