Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • mvmss wrote: »
    Madlax wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.

    Not sure what you're saying, That it's OK to act immature if it gets what you want. Doesn't change my point that you're still responsible for your own behavior and not CG. Repeating your ideas over and over doesn't move responsibility to CG dev team. I think CG team was benevolent here not because of the forums rashness, but despite the forums rashness.

    I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I'm not a native English speaker, as you might have noticed.

    I said all it took was a simple and clear answer that CG is still looking into finding a solution, that the opinions expressed here are, at the very least, being read and the fallout ended. Or haven't you noticed?

    By the way, when you go to McDonalds and they give you your order is not because they are "benevolent". It's just their job. They get paid for it, you know.

    And when you go to McDonald's and speak the way some have spoken here to the teller, or just in general to the staff, people dont generally say "it's ok, he has been waiting for his food for a while". They would think it was rude, and maybe they wouldnt step in, but they wouldnt condone it.

    My point has been, if we as a collective kept that (or worked towards that)attitude here, maybe we could raise things up a little bit on our end.

    Ok, now let’s work that McDonald’s example into something that more closely resembles this scenario, because it’s definitely not the same as just waiting for your food.

    Imagine you ordered and paid for a cheeseburger. Now imagine instead of getting said cheeseburger, you were handed a salad, and the staff member says “We’re giving you this salad because we think you need this healthier option”. You, rightfully so, are a little miffed and ask for your correct order or at least a refund. The staff member then turns around to face the kitchen and proceeds to ignore you. Are they even listening? Maybe, but they’re not acknowledging, so you can’t be sure. They definitely don’t appear to be doing anything to rectify or defuse the situation. You’re just left there at the counter staring at a salad you didn’t want or order.

    If I saw all this going on as an impartial observer, I would not fault that customer one bit for getting a little heated or upset over the situation, especially if the staff member continued to keep their back turned and appear to ignore the customer.

    I mean who the heck wants a salad when they were looking forward to that cheeseburger?

    ETA: Now, if I saw the staff member engaging and trying to have a constructive dialogue with the customer to resolve the situation and the customer was still screaming their head off, that’d be a different situation to me. Then they’d be a ****. You seem to think that’s what’s happening here, whereas I see the former scenario.

    For this to more closely resemble this scenario you would need an assistant manager standing there telling you that you shouldn't be mad, that's it's your fault your mad, and that they never said either one of those things.

    Wrong.. for this scenario to work you would have signed a contract upon entering the MCDoof, saying they could serve you whatever they like...
    Cause thats exactly what you signed when you aggreed to the user aggreements and created an account here, heck, its the same in every single online game.
    So stop with those useles real life examples which just dont fit.

    Strictly speaking the 'contract' would of been a lengthy block of text on the wall, with something in there that says "upon entering here you agree we can serve you whatever we like" - and you wouldn't need to sign it for McDs to consider it binding.

    Why is that relevant? Some jurisdictions (parts of Canada is one I believe for example) don't consider a contract fully binding on a consumer if the consumer has no opportunity to negotiate the terms.

    This is what we call "leonine clauses", which could be an exploit present in standard form contracts, where one party has no saying on the clauses - he either accepts it or he doesn't.

    There is an understanding that abusive practices should not go unpunished, even when perfectly within the terms of a standard form contract. It is a way to "bring balance to the force", if you will.

    Yes exactly. I can't put in tiny font on a can of baked beans that I'm selling you that, should you eat any of the beans I'm entitled to all of your assets.

    Similarly CG couldn't change the game to be a "My Little Pony" game overnight without opening themselves to recourse.

    The proposed Finn change is undoubtedly safer ground for them, but I imagine still slightly questionable in more consumer friendly countries/jurisdictions, especially if someone could demonstrate specific financial purchases linked to statements they've made about what they do/don't intend to change.
    In any case I don't think it's always quite as black and white as 'it's our game, we can change whatever we want with it and you have to suck it up'
  • Refund the zeta
  • StarSon
    4306 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.
  • mvmss wrote: »
    Madlax wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.

    Not sure what you're saying, That it's OK to act immature if it gets what you want. Doesn't change my point that you're still responsible for your own behavior and not CG. Repeating your ideas over and over doesn't move responsibility to CG dev team. I think CG team was benevolent here not because of the forums rashness, but despite the forums rashness.

    I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I'm not a native English speaker, as you might have noticed.

    I said all it took was a simple and clear answer that CG is still looking into finding a solution, that the opinions expressed here are, at the very least, being read and the fallout ended. Or haven't you noticed?

    By the way, when you go to McDonalds and they give you your order is not because they are "benevolent". It's just their job. They get paid for it, you know.

    And when you go to McDonald's and speak the way some have spoken here to the teller, or just in general to the staff, people dont generally say "it's ok, he has been waiting for his food for a while". They would think it was rude, and maybe they wouldnt step in, but they wouldnt condone it.

    My point has been, if we as a collective kept that (or worked towards that)attitude here, maybe we could raise things up a little bit on our end.

    Ok, now let’s work that McDonald’s example into something that more closely resembles this scenario, because it’s definitely not the same as just waiting for your food.

    Imagine you ordered and paid for a cheeseburger. Now imagine instead of getting said cheeseburger, you were handed a salad, and the staff member says “We’re giving you this salad because we think you need this healthier option”. You, rightfully so, are a little miffed and ask for your correct order or at least a refund. The staff member then turns around to face the kitchen and proceeds to ignore you. Are they even listening? Maybe, but they’re not acknowledging, so you can’t be sure. They definitely don’t appear to be doing anything to rectify or defuse the situation. You’re just left there at the counter staring at a salad you didn’t want or order.

    If I saw all this going on as an impartial observer, I would not fault that customer one bit for getting a little heated or upset over the situation, especially if the staff member continued to keep their back turned and appear to ignore the customer.

    I mean who the heck wants a salad when they were looking forward to that cheeseburger?

    ETA: Now, if I saw the staff member engaging and trying to have a constructive dialogue with the customer to resolve the situation and the customer was still screaming their head off, that’d be a different situation to me. Then they’d be a ****. You seem to think that’s what’s happening here, whereas I see the former scenario.

    For this to more closely resemble this scenario you would need an assistant manager standing there telling you that you shouldn't be mad, that's it's your fault your mad, and that they never said either one of those things.

    Wrong.. for this scenario to work you would have signed a contract upon entering the MCDoof, saying they could serve you whatever they like...
    Cause thats exactly what you signed when you aggreed to the user aggreements and created an account here, heck, its the same in every single online game.
    So stop with those useles real life examples which just dont fit.

    Strictly speaking the 'contract' would of been a lengthy block of text on the wall, with something in there that says "upon entering here you agree we can serve you whatever we like" - and you wouldn't need to sign it for McDs to consider it binding.

    Why is that relevant? Some jurisdictions (parts of Canada is one I believe for example) don't consider a contract fully binding on a consumer if the consumer has no opportunity to negotiate the terms.

    This is what we call "leonine clauses", which could be an exploit present in standard form contracts, where one party has no saying on the clauses - he either accepts it or he doesn't.

    There is an understanding that abusive practices should not go unpunished, even when perfectly within the terms of a standard form contract. It is a way to "bring balance to the force", if you will.

    You just got lawyered.
  • StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

  • StarSon
    4306 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png
  • StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

  • StarSon
    4306 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.
  • StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.
    Yeah, so it’s not an issue if it can so easily be beat... and no, if you mod for Tenacity (not just stick one mod set on) the TM train doesn’t get rolling and the team gets beat even easier

  • It's crazy that you think gaining massive amounts of TM was some unforseen issue that is breaking arena and THE cause for Finn's zeta nerf.

    The issue is and always will be the Sith Raid.

    I am with you in that I think it has to change, but it's a non-issue in arena and the meta report shows that
  • StarSon
    4306 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.
    Yeah, so it’s not an issue if it can so easily be beat... and no, if you mod for Tenacity (not just stick one mod set on) the TM train doesn’t get rolling and the team gets beat even easier

    It can be easily beat *now*. But what about future teams? Do we really want them to build in super tenacity or bonus turn mechanics into every new meta team?

    And, yes, even if you mod for tenacity, the tm train still gets going, because Chewie applies tenacity down, which is unresistable. The only reason it doesn't work on defense *now* is because they start with Tenacity Up.
  • StarSon
    4306 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    It's crazy that you think gaining massive amounts of TM was some unforseen issue that is breaking arena and THE cause for Finn's zeta nerf.

    The issue is and always will be the Sith Raid.

    I am with you in that I think it has to change, but it's a non-issue in arena and the meta report shows that

    I didn't say it was *the* cause; I said it was *a* cause. I think it's crazy you can't see that it's an issue for future arenas.
  • StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    It's crazy that you think gaining massive amounts of TM was some unforseen issue that is breaking arena and THE cause for Finn's zeta nerf.

    The issue is and always will be the Sith Raid.

    I am with you in that I think it has to change, but it's a non-issue in arena and the meta report shows that

    I didn't say it was *the* cause; I said it was *a* cause. I think it's crazy you can't see that it's an issue for future arenas.

    I already said it’s an issue, it’s not broken though. The fact that there are a lot of mechanics that beat a Finn team currently shows that.... it’s not like teams that beat Finn were designed to do so

    The fact that future teams will be designed SPECIFICALLY to beat Revan IMO is a bigger power creep issue than needing to worry about starting Finns TM train
  • Madlax
    119 posts Member

    Strictly speaking the 'contract' would of been a lengthy block of text on the wall, with something in there that says "upon entering here you agree we can serve you whatever we like" - and you wouldn't need to sign it for McDs to consider it binding.

    Why is that relevant? Some jurisdictions (parts of Canada is one I believe for example) don't consider a contract fully binding on a consumer if the consumer has no opportunity to negotiate the terms.

    You have the opportunity not to aggree to the terms and play another game. You simply cant draw parallels between online games and real life examples regarding content.
  • Madlax wrote: »

    Strictly speaking the 'contract' would of been a lengthy block of text on the wall, with something in there that says "upon entering here you agree we can serve you whatever we like" - and you wouldn't need to sign it for McDs to consider it binding.

    Why is that relevant? Some jurisdictions (parts of Canada is one I believe for example) don't consider a contract fully binding on a consumer if the consumer has no opportunity to negotiate the terms.

    You have the opportunity not to aggree to the terms and play another game. You simply cant draw parallels between online games and real life examples regarding content.

    I was working within the framework of someone else's analogy, but to the extent a jurisdiction's consumer protection regulation treats online games and real life products the same, yes I can.
  • YaeVizsla
    3445 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    I already said it’s an issue, it’s not broken though. The fact that there are a lot of mechanics that beat a Finn team currently shows that.... it’s not like teams that beat Finn were designed to do so

    The fact that future teams will be designed SPECIFICALLY to beat Revan IMO is a bigger power creep issue than needing to worry about starting Finns TM train
    1) What-about-ism is a poor debate tactic. "We should look at unrelated problem Y," when someone says, "X is a problem," says nothing about whether X is a problem.

    2) Revan is a meta. We've had metas before. They rotate through. Finn has been a persistent issue for years and is just now coming to a head. It will continue being an issue if not dealt with.

    3) Releasing antimeta is nothing new. Yes, a Revan counter will be released. Just like Bastila was released as targeted anti-Palpatine at the height of Palp meta. As new content proliferated counter when the meta became AoE heavy. As Nest is there as antimeta against all manner of things, including TM gain/drain and Fracture. Traya was a giant ball of antimeta. Targeted releases to shift the meta and dethrone the current dominant team have been a thing for over a year.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?
    The AI doesn't handle Finn well. You don't leave purely offensive teams on defense. That does not mean they aren't broken on offense.
    Yes exactly. I can't put in tiny font on a can of baked beans that I'm selling you that, should you eat any of the beans I'm entitled to all of your assets.

    Similarly CG couldn't change the game to be a "My Little Pony" game overnight without opening themselves to recourse.

    The proposed Finn change is undoubtedly safer ground for them, but I imagine still slightly questionable in more consumer friendly countries/jurisdictions, especially if someone could demonstrate specific financial purchases linked to statements they've made about what they do/don't intend to change.
    In any case I don't think it's always quite as black and white as 'it's our game, we can change whatever we want with it and you have to suck it up'
    There is no legal question here, nor an ethical one.

    They're balancing a game mechanic. It's part of running the game. Over time, things change, and some things change significantly. You're not entitled to a refund every time an update affects you.

    This is not a Galaxy of Heroes thing. This is an every game thing. Look at how characters were at launch and how they are now in pretty much any long-running continuously supported game, and there are bound to be some notable changes, and odds are nobody got refunds for 'em. And those are usually things that were part of the game for years, then got changed down the road.

    Yet here folks are, complaining every time. Change something shortly after launch, and they get accused of bait and switching the early adopters. Change something after it's been out for a while, and people are barking about how it's been that way for X long, and asking why it's gotta change now. Work behind the scenes and drop a change quickly, and you're blindsiding the playerbase. Give warning before developing the change, and they're dragging their feet. So there is no combination of timing and warning that will ever have everyone say they did it right.

    But Finn is not being taken away, or destroyed, or rendered useless. They're not taking him outside the game's core conceit of Space Wizard Action Figure Mashup. We're talking about continuous support and updates for the game, which is the service CG is providing. It's their basic job description.

    This change is so far from any legal or ethical questionability as to make bringing it up absurd.

    Also, this is not some sleight against the free to play players, in favor of paying players. Finn is not the F2Ps' beacon of hope in the face of Revan. Revan is far and away the most accessible meta we've had since Palpatine. Anyone who didn't get Revan in round two, it's either because they're very new or chose not to make it a priority. Revan is a very free to play friendly toon and going forward I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lot of new players getting Revan before CLS.

    This isn't a sleight against the paying players. Finn's not really something folks have paid for in a hot minute, and particularly not for the point of getting his zeta. Just new players to get him at all so they can get JTR, which this rework does not meaningfully hinder and in fact makes easier, since new Finn kit is more suitable to the event. Of the people I know who spend on the game, it's crystals and characters, not ability mats, so that's not a cost issue.

    You can say time investment, but there are a lot of zetas that were good back in the day that have become way less valuable over time, more than this rework is panning out to be. Barriss, Savage, Kylo classic, Bastila lead, Maul, Qui Gon, Phasma. Most of these aren't trash zetas, but they aren't nearly as relevant as they used to be. Grandmaster Yoda's leadership zeta went from being a valuable investment to kinda trash a couple weeks after coming out, because the Bastila drop rendered it irrelevant. So, "This zeta is falling in value therefore we deserve a refund," doesn't float. Particularly since the reworked lead still looks to be able to make a squad that can down some relevant threats, so it's not useless.

    It's hard to find a legal or ethical grounds to say CG's doing anything wrong here. It's a load of posturing because they're changing a thing you like because it ain't healthy for the game.
    Still not a he.
  • SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    I've been using zFinn to climb to rank 1 for a while now. The only reason I'm able to do that is because 99% of the top Revans in arena do not stack their teams with even more tenacity.

    Do yo know why they dont mod for tenacity despite *occasionally* seeing a lil zFinn team amongst their ranks? Probably because the bigger fish to fry are OTHER REVAN TEAMS and the reason they have 0 problem with a zFinn team beating their's is because

    A. They can climb to rank 1 by actually having the opportunity to hit a non-Revan team.
    B. Why care about literally one team that could never defend itself on defense in arena when they need speed to compete against other Revan teams.

    The only people who are actually affected by zFinn beating their Revan teams literally do not care about zFinn's mechanics. No one is a victim here except for people who may have their team nerfed because of a stronger team that is able to auto-play through every other team except for their own lineup.
  • Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    I've been using zFinn to climb to rank 1 for a while now. The only reason I'm able to do that is because 99% of the top Revans in arena do not stack their teams with even more tenacity.

    Do yo know why they dont mod for tenacity despite *occasionally* seeing a lil zFinn team amongst their ranks? Probably because the bigger fish to fry are OTHER REVAN TEAMS and the reason they have 0 problem with a zFinn team beating their's is because

    A. They can climb to rank 1 by actually having the opportunity to hit a non-Revan team.
    B. Why care about literally one team that could never defend itself on defense in arena when they need speed to compete against other Revan teams.

    The only people who are actually affected by zFinn beating their Revan teams literally do not care about zFinn's mechanics. No one is a victim here except for people who may have their team nerfed because of a stronger team that is able to auto-play through every other team except for their own lineup.

    That's my point though. zFinn is not an issue that CG cares about addressing because of the arena. They care because the sith raid.

    Finn is not a problem in arena
  • @YaeVizsla I've already said that Finn needs to be addressed due to power creep and how it limits them with creating new kits. That being said, there are half a dozen more toons that have already had more mechanics that CG has to work around and specifically create new toons simply to counter.

    Finn has never had to be specifically countered from a technical standpoint like that because it's not OP.

    Just because something is meta doesn't mean it's not "broken", you're insane if you think Finn is a bigger issue to competition than Revan.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    I already said it’s an issue, it’s not broken though. The fact that there are a lot of mechanics that beat a Finn team currently shows that.... it’s not like teams that beat Finn were designed to do so

    The fact that future teams will be designed SPECIFICALLY to beat Revan IMO is a bigger power creep issue than needing to worry about starting Finns TM train
    1) What-about-ism is a poor debate tactic. "We should look at unrelated problem Y," when someone says, "X is a problem," says nothing about whether X is a problem.

    2) Revan is a meta. We've had metas before. They rotate through. Finn has been a persistent issue for years and is just now coming to a head. It will continue being an issue if not dealt with.

    3) Releasing antimeta is nothing new. Yes, a Revan counter will be released. Just like Bastila was released as targeted anti-Palpatine at the height of Palp meta. As new content proliferated counter when the meta became AoE heavy. As Nest is there as antimeta against all manner of things, including TM gain/drain and Fracture. Traya was a giant ball of antimeta. Targeted releases to shift the meta and dethrone the current dominant team have been a thing for over a year.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?
    The AI doesn't handle Finn well. You don't leave purely offensive teams on defense. That does not mean they aren't broken on offense.
    Yes exactly. I can't put in tiny font on a can of baked beans that I'm selling you that, should you eat any of the beans I'm entitled to all of your assets.

    Similarly CG couldn't change the game to be a "My Little Pony" game overnight without opening themselves to recourse.

    The proposed Finn change is undoubtedly safer ground for them, but I imagine still slightly questionable in more consumer friendly countries/jurisdictions, especially if someone could demonstrate specific financial purchases linked to statements they've made about what they do/don't intend to change.
    In any case I don't think it's always quite as black and white as 'it's our game, we can change whatever we want with it and you have to suck it up'
    There is no legal question here, nor an ethical one.

    They're balancing a game mechanic. It's part of running the game. Over time, things change, and some things change significantly. You're not entitled to a refund every time an update affects you.

    This is not a Galaxy of Heroes thing. This is an every game thing. Look at how characters were at launch and how they are now in pretty much any long-running continuously supported game, and there are bound to be some notable changes, and odds are nobody got refunds for 'em. And those are usually things that were part of the game for years, then got changed down the road.

    Yet here folks are, complaining every time. Change something shortly after launch, and they get accused of bait and switching the early adopters. Change something after it's been out for a while, and people are barking about how it's been that way for X long, and asking why it's gotta change now. Work behind the scenes and drop a change quickly, and you're blindsiding the playerbase. Give warning before developing the change, and they're dragging their feet. So there is no combination of timing and warning that will ever have everyone say they did it right.

    But Finn is not being taken away, or destroyed, or rendered useless. They're not taking him outside the game's core conceit of Space Wizard Action Figure Mashup. We're talking about continuous support and updates for the game, which is the service CG is providing. It's their basic job description.

    This change is so far from any legal or ethical questionability as to make bringing it up absurd.

    Also, this is not some sleight against the free to play players, in favor of paying players. Finn is not the F2Ps' beacon of hope in the face of Revan. Revan is far and away the most accessible meta we've had since Palpatine. Anyone who didn't get Revan in round two, it's either because they're very new or chose not to make it a priority. Revan is a very free to play friendly toon and going forward I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lot of new players getting Revan before CLS.

    This isn't a sleight against the paying players. Finn's not really something folks have paid for in a hot minute, and particularly not for the point of getting his zeta. Just new players to get him at all so they can get JTR, which this rework does not meaningfully hinder and in fact makes easier, since new Finn kit is more suitable to the event. Of the people I know who spend on the game, it's crystals and characters, not ability mats, so that's not a cost issue.

    You can say time investment, but there are a lot of zetas that were good back in the day that have become way less valuable over time, more than this rework is panning out to be. Barriss, Savage, Kylo classic, Bastila lead, Maul, Qui Gon, Phasma. Most of these aren't trash zetas, but they aren't nearly as relevant as they used to be. Grandmaster Yoda's leadership zeta went from being a valuable investment to kinda trash a couple weeks after coming out, because the Bastila drop rendered it irrelevant. So, "This zeta is falling in value therefore we deserve a refund," doesn't float. Particularly since the reworked lead still looks to be able to make a squad that can down some relevant threats, so it's not useless.

    It's hard to find a legal or ethical grounds to say CG's doing anything wrong here. It's a load of posturing because they're changing a thing you like because it ain't healthy for the game.

    I'm glad to hear we have someone among us who is an expert in the consumer protection regulation regime of every jurisdiction the game is available in.

    I don't actually use zFinn in arena, or much at all. My point in regards to the legalities of completely changing a character that people may have recently invested money in based on statements from CG that implied no change was coming is largely academic.

    That said, if you're seriously of the opinion that CG have been acting ethically more generally of late then I feel pretty sorry for you.
  • dominiQC wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.

    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.

    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.
  • dominiQC wrote: »
    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    @dominiQC That only works if the Finn rebels are not modded for potency. Since they literally have 0 other modding needs besides potency, your GK can not outstack them on tenacity since he needs protection and/or defense to hold up against other teams.

    Basically, modding for tenacity to hold against zfinn rebels is
    A. a bad idea since they're easy to beat back and its more important to hold against other teams
    B. pointless since you can't win in the mod race anyway.

  • Woodroward
    3742 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.


    do you even play this game? Revan team starts with tenacity up, tenacity down cancels tenacity up and you're left with your potency against opponent tenacity. If GK dodges Chewbaca its auto loss, if GK resists 1 or 2 exposes its also auto loss. The OP is 100% in telling you to counter zFinn by modding for tenacity. Obviuosly its a BAD strategy because you should be a lot more worried about 90% of Revans in the arena than 2% of Finns so its not a good strategy, but that is not the point.

    he's wrong though. Modding for tenacity won't help against properly modded Finn teams since they'll have mods completely sold out to potency and absolutely nothing else. No damage, no speed, no crit, just potency and you'll simply have base resist against them anyway.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.


    do you even play this game? Revan team starts with tenacity up, tenacity down cancels tenacity up and you're left with your potency against opponent tenacity. If GK dodges Chewbaca its auto loss, if GK resists 1 or 2 exposes its also auto loss. The OP is 100% in telling you to counter zFinn by modding for tenacity. Obviuosly its a BAD strategy because you should be a lot more worried about 90% of Revans in the arena than 2% of Finns so its not a good strategy, but that is not the point.

    he's wrong though. Modding for tenacity won't help against properly modded Finn teams since they'll have mods completely sold out to potency and absolutely nothing else. No damage, no speed, no crit, just potency and you'll simply have base resist against them anyway.

    Except Im not wrong though, modding specifically to counter a Finn just makes no sense.

    If you mod for tenacity you will beat Finn almost 100% of the time, just lose to other Revans 100% of the time. pick your poison.
  • SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.


    do you even play this game? Revan team starts with tenacity up, tenacity down cancels tenacity up and you're left with your potency against opponent tenacity. If GK dodges Chewbaca its auto loss, if GK resists 1 or 2 exposes its also auto loss. The OP is 100% in telling you to counter zFinn by modding for tenacity. Obviuosly its a BAD strategy because you should be a lot more worried about 90% of Revans in the arena than 2% of Finns so its not a good strategy, but that is not the point.

    he's wrong though. Modding for tenacity won't help against properly modded Finn teams since they'll have mods completely sold out to potency and absolutely nothing else. No damage, no speed, no crit, just potency and you'll simply have base resist against them anyway.

    Except Im not wrong though, modding specifically to counter a Finn just makes no sense.

    If you mod for tenacity you will beat Finn almost 100% of the time, just lose to other Revans 100% of the time. pick your poison.

    but you are wrong. Firstly, it isn't about beating Finn it's about defending against him.

    Secondly, modding for tenacity won't change that outcome one iota. The finn team will have more potency (since they have literally 0 other modding needs besides potency) than your tenacity so it will still just be base resist chance of 15%.

    Literally the only thing that could possibly hold them up is resists so any finn team that isn't sold out on potency is an unmodded finn team. You won't hold against modded Finn teams by stacking tenacity.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.


    do you even play this game? Revan team starts with tenacity up, tenacity down cancels tenacity up and you're left with your potency against opponent tenacity. If GK dodges Chewbaca its auto loss, if GK resists 1 or 2 exposes its also auto loss. The OP is 100% in telling you to counter zFinn by modding for tenacity. Obviuosly its a BAD strategy because you should be a lot more worried about 90% of Revans in the arena than 2% of Finns so its not a good strategy, but that is not the point.

    he's wrong though. Modding for tenacity won't help against properly modded Finn teams since they'll have mods completely sold out to potency and absolutely nothing else. No damage, no speed, no crit, just potency and you'll simply have base resist against them anyway.

    Except Im not wrong though, modding specifically to counter a Finn just makes no sense.

    If you mod for tenacity you will beat Finn almost 100% of the time, just lose to other Revans 100% of the time. pick your poison.

    but you are wrong. Firstly, it isn't about beating Finn it's about defending against him.

    Secondly, modding for tenacity won't change that outcome one iota. The finn team will have more potency (since they have literally 0 other modding needs besides potency) than your tenacity so it will still just be base resist chance of 15%.

    Literally the only thing that could possibly hold them up is resists so any finn team that isn't sold out on potency is an unmodded finn team. You won't hold against modded Finn teams by stacking tenacity.

    and if you were to mod your team strictly for only tenacity and only tenacity you will steamroll the kitten outta every finn team you ever see and no one will be able to beat you either. The problem is that Revan will stomp you.

    So yes, you're wrong. You're right that it will never happen, because Revan is the meta but if Finn actually were a problem you'd see more tenacity based builds.
  • Woodroward
    3742 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.


    do you even play this game? Revan team starts with tenacity up, tenacity down cancels tenacity up and you're left with your potency against opponent tenacity. If GK dodges Chewbaca its auto loss, if GK resists 1 or 2 exposes its also auto loss. The OP is 100% in telling you to counter zFinn by modding for tenacity. Obviuosly its a BAD strategy because you should be a lot more worried about 90% of Revans in the arena than 2% of Finns so its not a good strategy, but that is not the point.

    he's wrong though. Modding for tenacity won't help against properly modded Finn teams since they'll have mods completely sold out to potency and absolutely nothing else. No damage, no speed, no crit, just potency and you'll simply have base resist against them anyway.

    Except Im not wrong though, modding specifically to counter a Finn just makes no sense.

    If you mod for tenacity you will beat Finn almost 100% of the time, just lose to other Revans 100% of the time. pick your poison.

    but you are wrong. Firstly, it isn't about beating Finn it's about defending against him.

    Secondly, modding for tenacity won't change that outcome one iota. The finn team will have more potency (since they have literally 0 other modding needs besides potency) than your tenacity so it will still just be base resist chance of 15%.

    Literally the only thing that could possibly hold them up is resists so any finn team that isn't sold out on potency is an unmodded finn team. You won't hold against modded Finn teams by stacking tenacity.

    and if you were to mod your team strictly for only tenacity and only tenacity you will steamroll the kitten outta every finn team you ever see and no one will be able to beat you either. The problem is that Revan will stomp you.

    So yes, you're wrong. You're right that it will never happen, because Revan is the meta but if Finn actually were a problem you'd see more tenacity based builds.
    if you were to stack nothing but tenacity, you would have a slight extra resist % but you'd lose so much speed the Finn team could afford the few extra resists you'd get and they'd still beat you, so you're still wrong.

    Modding for tenacity ONLY helps against unmodded Finn teams, period.

    Telling people how to mod to defeat knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless.
  • "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta
This discussion has been closed.