Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • KM1
    78 posts Member
    edited March 19
    ALDUIN719 wrote: »
    Why not just fix Traya in the raid to have an ungodly amount of tenacity? Bam fixed the issue, no reworks required for anyone, let’s get this done!

    Because it's not really about P3. CG LIED! They realized a zFinn team can kill their beloved, tailored, OP Darth Revan and the $P2W$ whiners won't stand for it. That's why zFinn's lead is being eviscerated.At least tell the truth CG. Then you'll be greedy but not greedy liars.
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    ALDUIN719 wrote: »
    Why not just fix Traya in the raid to have an ungodly amount of tenacity? Bam fixed the issue, no reworks required for anyone, let’s get this done!

    ...because that would make the CLS loop trivial.
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Madlax wrote: »
    True, Yoda is the only one who deserves to make 8 turns in a row in a Revan(ue) team! /sarcasm off
    A lot of turns and having to walk on eggshells to avoid an infinite loop are not the same thing.

    And Yoda does not take eight turns in a row. Two? Yes. Three? If the stars align. But most of Yoda's actions are not Yoda taking a turn. They're Yoda being called to assist. While extreme, and possibly even excessive, it is fundamentally finite and exhaustible.

    The Finn loop is not. If you can plant and pop a bubble every other turn, you will go, and you will never stop until the opposing team is dead. It's unbounded, mitigated solely by the luck of expose chances.

    There's a world of difference between a very powerful non-loop and a loop.


    You call a non-loop but, seriously, when Yoda hits as hard as he does, not many teams can survive his attacks, even if there's no loop. Not when you can get him to hit over 100k dmg on a basic, from an assist, if he gets defense penetration.

    1. Revan group hug
    2. GMY in full TM copies buffs
    3. GMY spread buffs
    4. Bastila calls GMY to assist
    5. GMY in full TM does basic
    6. Jolee calls GMY to assist
    7. Kenobi group hug
    8. GMY has full TM once again

    Maybe, just maybe, loop teams are what is needed to keep those Behemoths in check. In a larger sense, the rock-paper-scissors thing.

    I believe I will get DR and, by no means, I would like DR to be as broken as JKR teams are. The Jolee mechanic is overkill by an insane margin and GMY didn't have to be the wrecking ball he is for JKR to be meta and dominate arena.
  • YaeVizsla
    2890 posts Member
    mvmss wrote: »
    Maybe, just maybe, loop teams are what is needed to keep those Behemoths in check. In a larger sense, the rock-paper-scissors thing.

    I believe I will get DR and, by no means, I would like DR to be as broken as JKR teams are. The Jolee mechanic is overkill by an insane margin and GMY didn't have to be the wrecking ball he is for JKR to be meta and dominate arena.
    No. No, it isn't.

    And infinite loops aren't rock paper scissors. They wreck the very notion.

    No, this meta is going to end the same way most metas end. A targeted counter. You can already see it in HK's kit, getting rid of what limited turn meter engine the Jedi have.

    The Palpatine/Vader rework and Sion were aimed squarely at Rebels, as CLS was the dominant force in the meta at the time. Traya's lead was made specifically to counter CLS and JTR teams, punishing out-of-turn attacks and buffs. Kevan was targeted at Traya, healing on out-of-turn attacks and boosting assists, and chiseling her base HP through her protection. Bastila was targeted at Palpatine with her enormous tenacity zeta. When the meta became AoE heavy back in the day, they proliferated counters. When Droid meta dominated, they introduced Rex led clones. Zaul was met with R2. Kevan is about to be met with Devan and the HK-47 rework.

    And not all of these are necessarily power creep. Revan is powerful, sure, but not that much more powerful than prior characters; the absolute dominance comes from better synergy than we've ever seen before, with specific counters for some of the most reliable prior squads. You do not need a unit who is tremendously overpowered to take down Kevan. Heck, right now, a well outfitted Nightsisters team can fare well against Kevan, in large part because Kevan's kit is not made as a direct counter to them. The biggest problem with running Nightsisters in arena right now is not that they can't keep up with the Revan teams- they're at a disadvantage but not to an untenable degree- but that so many of the Revan players are desperate for something other than a mirror match that you'll get dogpiled, and the fact that you have a reasonable chance to hold against Kevan on defense won't matter because you'll be attacked ten times as much as anyone else for being at all different, which is a problem all the competing, viably powerful teams faced at the height of Palpatine meta. It wasn't that they weren't viable; it was that Nightmare was so much more accessible, and mirror matches were horrible.

    How will Kevan be dealt with? New stuff Revan doesn't counter will be released at or slightly above the power level of the stuff Kevan was designed to directly counter. The meta will move on from a defensive team to an offensive team as it usually alternates, and all will be right in the world.

    Kevan is annoying now, but this is not a lasting problem.

    Leads that limit design space and are prone to looping, such as Finn or HK-47, are a lasting problem, and severely hinder their respective factions because you can't feed those factions for fear of breaking action economy.
    Still not a he.
  • Like JKR and DR are not short enough to Acronym 😂
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Maybe, just maybe, loop teams are what is needed to keep those Behemoths in check. In a larger sense, the rock-paper-scissors thing.

    I believe I will get DR and, by no means, I would like DR to be as broken as JKR teams are. The Jolee mechanic is overkill by an insane margin and GMY didn't have to be the wrecking ball he is for JKR to be meta and dominate arena.
    No. No, it isn't.

    And infinite loops aren't rock paper scissors. They wreck the very notion.

    No, this meta is going to end the same way most metas end. A targeted counter. You can already see it in HK's kit, getting rid of what limited turn meter engine the Jedi have.

    The Palpatine/Vader rework and Sion were aimed squarely at Rebels, as CLS was the dominant force in the meta at the time. Traya's lead was made specifically to counter CLS and JTR teams, punishing out-of-turn attacks and buffs. Kevan was targeted at Traya, healing on out-of-turn attacks and boosting assists, and chiseling her base HP through her protection. Bastila was targeted at Palpatine with her enormous tenacity zeta. When the meta became AoE heavy back in the day, they proliferated counters. When Droid meta dominated, they introduced Rex led clones. Zaul was met with R2. Kevan is about to be met with Devan and the HK-47 rework.

    And not all of these are necessarily power creep. Revan is powerful, sure, but not that much more powerful than prior characters; the absolute dominance comes from better synergy than we've ever seen before, with specific counters for some of the most reliable prior squads. You do not need a unit who is tremendously overpowered to take down Kevan. Heck, right now, a well outfitted Nightsisters team can fare well against Kevan, in large part because Kevan's kit is not made as a direct counter to them. The biggest problem with running Nightsisters in arena right now is not that they can't keep up with the Revan teams- they're at a disadvantage but not to an untenable degree- but that so many of the Revan players are desperate for something other than a mirror match that you'll get dogpiled, and the fact that you have a reasonable chance to hold against Kevan on defense won't matter because you'll be attacked ten times as much as anyone else for being at all different, which is a problem all the competing, viably powerful teams faced at the height of Palpatine meta. It wasn't that they weren't viable; it was that Nightmare was so much more accessible, and mirror matches were horrible.

    How will Kevan be dealt with? New stuff Revan doesn't counter will be released at or slightly above the power level of the stuff Kevan was designed to directly counter. The meta will move on from a defensive team to an offensive team as it usually alternates, and all will be right in the world.

    Kevan is annoying now, but this is not a lasting problem.

    Leads that limit design space and are prone to looping, such as Finn or HK-47, are a lasting problem, and severely hinder their respective factions because you can't feed those factions for fear of breaking action economy.

    Yes, yes, finn and hk are broken, that's why they dominate every aspect of the game. Oh wait, they dont. Hmm.
  • Zeta Finn leadership was my 3rd ever zeta to help with phase 6 in light side TB. I've recommended this zeta to so many players. If you remove the turn meter reduction from his leadership to include all exposes it now makes it one of the worst Zetas moving forward. It's the only reason I put the zeta on Finn. To have a lower geared team to help me contribute to TW and TB, if you destroy it then it will needed to be refunded
  • So when twill this drop?
    Without the 60% potency from the new leadership poor poe cant even land his expose on. a. Single. Bounty. Hunter.
  • mvmss wrote: »
    ALDUIN719 wrote: »
    Why not just fix Traya in the raid to have an ungodly amount of tenacity? Bam fixed the issue, no reworks required for anyone, let’s get this done!

    ...because that would make the CLS loop trivial.
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Madlax wrote: »
    True, Yoda is the only one who deserves to make 8 turns in a row in a Revan(ue) team! /sarcasm off
    A lot of turns and having to walk on eggshells to avoid an infinite loop are not the same thing.

    And Yoda does not take eight turns in a row. Two? Yes. Three? If the stars align. But most of Yoda's actions are not Yoda taking a turn. They're Yoda being called to assist. While extreme, and possibly even excessive, it is fundamentally finite and exhaustible.

    The Finn loop is not. If you can plant and pop a bubble every other turn, you will go, and you will never stop until the opposing team is dead. It's unbounded, mitigated solely by the luck of expose chances.

    There's a world of difference between a very powerful non-loop and a loop.


    You call a non-loop but, seriously, when Yoda hits as hard as he does, not many teams can survive his attacks, even if there's no loop. Not when you can get him to hit over 100k dmg on a basic, from an assist, if he gets defense penetration.

    1. Revan group hug
    2. GMY in full TM copies buffs
    3. GMY spread buffs
    4. Bastila calls GMY to assist
    5. GMY in full TM does basic
    6. Jolee calls GMY to assist
    7. Kenobi group hug
    8. GMY has full TM once again

    Maybe, just maybe, loop teams are what is needed to keep those Behemoths in check. In a larger sense, the rock-paper-scissors thing.

    I believe I will get DR and, by no means, I would like DR to be as broken as JKR teams are. The Jolee mechanic is overkill by an insane margin and GMY didn't have to be the wrecking ball he is for JKR to be meta and dominate arena.

    Seems the problem is that goblin with a glowing stick...
  • Rather than getting rid of loops, they should be making one for every faction with a different mechanic so every faction has their own flavor. Just like every (major) faction should have a counterattack leader, an aoe dazer, a stealth spreader, a healer and an assister.

    Forcing us to only have 1 path to this or that is good sometimes (journeys are good, assault battles), but we also need room to let our creativity flow and play around with the dozens of toons we acquire. This is a collection/resource management strategy game. Making the majority of our collection unusable just lowers the play value of the game.

    When they want to make sure our tm doesn't loop they should design it so it doesn't like when they came up with giving the boss 5%tm every time it was hit. Or when they decided tm removal doesn't work during topple.

    Instead of limiting our creativity by rolling back fun concepts, they should be less reserved with most things. Everyone complains about insane power creep so they try not to overdo it with reworks and new characters most of the time which ends up making it so that only a few characters are op instead of all of them.

    And the HK lead was nerfed too much. Other characters are giving out 8/10%tm it's true, so it is more in keeping with their current model that way, but those characters are giving out that tm to multiple people, not just 1. JTR is giving a total of 40%tm out with her lead. Rex is giving 45% (if he's the only clone). HK lead COULD get 100% but not more and it doesn't have the whole shared aspect that causes endless chains.

    Finn lead gives 175%tm in that shared way. It creates loops. It's not in keeping with what they're doing so they're changing it, and that's boring. They need to have more leads that generate more than 100% overall shared tm from one event rather than to remove it. Every major faction should have a wide base of base mechanics to draw from and it should be the relative strength of the attackers and new unique buffs and debuffs that decides what is META.

    Removing tm gain as one of the methods of overcoming an obstacle is a short sighted narrow minded plan for this game. This isn't a new game. You can't make it new. You have to keep pushing the envelope, not rolling it back. There are so many characters and factions you can draw anyone into this game that cares about any part of star wars, but not if their faction is worthless.

    Factions that are currently low on the totem pole should find themselves having a hard time beating the latest rework/new faction but not impossible to beat. Unless every faction ends up with at lease one source of the most important base strengths and counters this game will push people away.

    The more people leave, the less competition. This seems good at first, but eventually you have no one to beat and no one to brag to, and no reason to play if we don't try to keep the community as large as possible. This means that the gap between the best faction and the worst faction needs to be large enough to encourage spending but small enough that the little guy doesn't feel like he has no chance. This means having lots of sources of the most basic necessary counters:
    Daze, stealth, tm gain, tm removal, counterattack, healing.

    This very strict compartmentalizing and limiting mindset on new concepts is going to take all the fun out of this game and really clear out the community that makes it fun when the game isn't as well.

  • Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    It honestly feels like the devs just want to nerf all leaderships that grant TM based on attacks while Revan's abilities are allowed to aid Yoda in getting one turn after another with a leadership boost that also grants speed while Yoda has 3 abilities that gives himself bonus TM :| I wouldn't side eye these changes so heavily if it was just decided that gaining TM based on attacks was no longer acceptable and no faction was allowed to do it. At least mods would matter alot more :/

    After the Dr Evan kit reveal today this comment is slightly ironic.
  • KM1
    78 posts Member
    Now do you understand why they nerfed zFinn? Dr.Evan's team can't lose TM once they have any debuff (Ferocity!) and zFinn (unlike JTR) doesn't rely on reducing TM of the opposing team. Instead, a resistance toon gained 35% TM. So Dr.Evan's bad medicine wouldn't stop zFinn. Of course, they tried to nerf C3PO with the "Protection up" toons "can't gain TM". But then, what can they do about R.Trooper or any other resistance toon!! Quick, use P3 as the excuse and nerf the zFinn lead.
    The real reason is not P3- therefore the simple Treya tenacity gain or preventing exposes is just not an option for them. The $$$s are the realy reason. Protecting the money and the P2W whiners is the real reason.
  • Chima
    101 posts Member
    The only thing I think is "HOW LONG THEY WILL WASTE TIME WORKING ON THIS WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER THINGS TO DO?" No one cares anymore with HSTR P3 solo.
    You should look for new things instead to avoid the people solo HAAT and HSTR.
    Maybe produce some fleet content? More capital ships? Maybe fix the GA matchmaking? Maybe work in more diversity in the arena? Mythic raids? Create a new equipment system for a better view of each level? More events? New TB? C'mon guys, we want NEW things, no one is concerned about HSTR P3 anymore. Doesn't matter, CLS is doing the same, are you going to nerf CLS as well?
  • https://www.facebook.com/groups/STGoH/permalink/867762040230027/

    zFinn easily handles Darth Revan. Can't see this going unfixed for much longer.
  • @CG_SBCrumb It's unfair of me to judge Darth Revan's capabilities in the meta this early but at the moment, it looks like 4 more months of old Revan with a dollop of newer Revan :(

    However, after HK got nerfed into oblivion and people were given 1k in credits and ability materials that an endgame player has 10k of, I'm concerned that there will be a repeat scenario in regards to zFinn.

    Even though there was 0 effort to leave the droid faction with a single viable leadership, at least there was the consolation prize of HK having a spot with an S class team.

    I sincerely hope that you don't give zFinn a d class leadership that's equivalent in viability to HK's, while not giving us any sort of consolation prize. Since zFinn as a squad member is clearly not going to turn JTR into a high end meta killer.

    Once again, a team that can compete against S tier teams, while getting wrekt on defense against
    B tier through S tier teams being transformed into a team that can compete against C tier teams with bad mods and outdated characters does not equal a zeta.

    Please do more than giving back a zeta if you really decide to nerf zFinn into the ground.
  • Chonsp
    19 posts Member
    Chima wrote: »
    The only thing I think is "HOW LONG THEY WILL WASTE TIME WORKING ON THIS WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER THINGS TO DO?" No one cares anymore with HSTR P3 solo.
    You should look for new things instead to avoid the people solo HAAT and HSTR.
    Maybe produce some fleet content? More capital ships? Maybe fix the GA matchmaking? Maybe work in more diversity in the arena? Mythic raids? Create a new equipment system for a better view of each level? More events? New TB? C'mon guys, we want NEW things, no one is concerned about HSTR P3 anymore. Doesn't matter, CLS is doing the same, are you going to nerf CLS as well?

    The ea real problem isn t hsr. It s the interaction between zinn, c3p0, han that make impossible new arena meta without initial tenacity boost or auto daze.
  • StarSon
    3646 posts Member
    zFinn has 2% of meta pie, he's hardly a threat to any meta. Also, CG did very equivocally state that the reason for all this fiasco was the interaction with HSTR. Either point, is not a very good excuse for wasting massive amounts of time on reworking a character that is WAI. I agree with OP, new content might get old players that are getting bored to stay and new ones to join. Nerfing Finn will have 0 positive effect on the game.

    Again, it's not the fact that it's 2%. It's the fact that all new metas need to account for it (see HK's second zeta).

    And it's not WAI, though it is WAD. There is an important difference. And nerfing Finn will have plenty of positive effect.
  • Trash
  • So, what you are saying is: Finn is now useless. Grats, you guys sure do bat a thousand with your balancing skills.
    I understand sarcasm doesn’t type out well, so, just so we are sure, you guys are soooo good at your jobs, yeah that’s sarcasm.
  • @CG_SBCrumb can you explain what's the main difference between the two versions of changes? I.e. what make you change your mind to refund zeta?
  • @CG_SBCrumb Your team made zFinn completely useless in any squad and think were dumb enough to think that a zeta mat will make this all ok. You literally announced that you *finally* managed to fix zFinn only 24 hours after Darth Revan's release because you feel that nothing should reliably counter either Revan but each other because your grasp on RPG's is severely slipping and I dont understand why besides the motivation of pure greed...despite the fact that this game wouldn't even be a thing if it wasnt for the release of The Force Awakens.

    Please stop pretending that you care at all about what the playerbase wants as a whole when all you care about is which character will net you the most money and how to protect that character from literally every faction (that are also F2P) in the game.

    Make sure that every TW is buffed from now on since nothing will be able to compete against these garbage juggernauts that are going to rule the meta/TW/GA till 2020.

    This was such a predictable insidious move on your part and you deserve no thanks.
  • Complete horse manure
This discussion has been closed.