Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • This is getting a little ridiculous. When is this rework actually happening?
  • SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.
  • StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    I agree and have said he needs to change. How is that different though that future teams will need to have MANY anti-Revan checks and balances though? The only reason they are changing it is because Finn is so easy to beat people as a F2P squad and blows through the sith raid.

    Revan can beat 95% of squads on auto and not because it's broke but was actually made to have so many mechanics to force it atop it's mountain. For some reason you are arguing power creep and acting like Finn is some unicorn.

    My entire train of thought all along has been do whatever to Finn, but give us a refund. I was just arguing with you guys how he's not an issue with being some unbeatable team and never has been. There are enough mechanics in the game to beat this team that it will never be meta because it is so poor on D.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.

    A "knockoff Finn" team? Do you not like Revan because those Jedi were all from different eras? Palpatine never fought alongside Scion or Nihlus.

    Until Finn is nerfed, this will be the meta Finn team going forward.
  • SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.

    A "knockoff Finn" team? Do you not like Revan because those Jedi were all from different eras? Palpatine never fought alongside Scion or Nihlus.

    Until Finn is nerfed, this will be the meta Finn team going forward.
    I explained what I meant by that to you already.

    Your advice is kind of like showing how to beat Revan with Jolee when the guy only has 50 speed each on his characters. Poorly modded teams don't count when it comes to giving strategy.

    Your tenacity advice only applies to knockoff Finn teams (unmodded Finn teams) not the ones people actually want to defend against.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.

    A "knockoff Finn" team? Do you not like Revan because those Jedi were all from different eras? Palpatine never fought alongside Scion or Nihlus.

    Until Finn is nerfed, this will be the meta Finn team going forward.
    I explained what I meant by that to you already.

    Your advice is kind of like showing how to beat Revan with Jolee when the guy only has 50 speed each on his characters. Poorly modded teams don't count when it comes to giving strategy.

    Your tenacity advice only applies to knockoff Finn teams (unmodded Finn teams) not the ones people actually want to defend against.

    Except it doesnt... If you have enough tenacity (160%, not difficult at all to do) on GK the resistance team can't get a TM train going right off the bat and get everyone to 100% before the Jedi.

    Since it can't get a TM train going it will have to force the tenacity down's through it's own turn meter and not through the intial exposes. Since that is the case, you will need to mod for speed to be able to get tenacity down and land and pop some exposes all before Revan goes and marks one of the guys.

    Once Revan goes, it's game over even if there is tenacity down.


    So yes, unless you can consistently land and hit multiple exposes (which you can't do consistently with modding GK solely for tenacity) only from Han's first shot you can still beat a "proper" Finn team by modding for tenacity.

    I know this because the arena payout ahead of me modded his GK (and only GK really) for Tenacity and I'd have to switch to Revan to beat him.
  • Woodroward
    3743 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.

    A "knockoff Finn" team? Do you not like Revan because those Jedi were all from different eras? Palpatine never fought alongside Scion or Nihlus.

    Until Finn is nerfed, this will be the meta Finn team going forward.
    I explained what I meant by that to you already.

    Your advice is kind of like showing how to beat Revan with Jolee when the guy only has 50 speed each on his characters. Poorly modded teams don't count when it comes to giving strategy.

    Your tenacity advice only applies to knockoff Finn teams (unmodded Finn teams) not the ones people actually want to defend against.

    Except it doesnt... If you have enough tenacity (160%, not difficult at all to do) on GK the resistance team can't get a TM train going right off the bat and get everyone to 100% before the Jedi.

    Since it can't get a TM train going it will have to force the tenacity down's through it's own turn meter and not through the intial exposes. Since that is the case, you will need to mod for speed to be able to get tenacity down and land and pop some exposes all before Revan goes and marks one of the guys.

    Once Revan goes, it's game over even if there is tenacity down.


    So yes, unless you can consistently land and hit multiple exposes (which you can't do consistently with modding GK solely for tenacity) only from Han's first shot you can still beat a "proper" Finn team by modding for tenacity.

    I know this because the arena payout ahead of me modded his GK (and only GK really) for Tenacity and I'd have to switch to Revan to beat him.

    So what you're saying is that you didn't bother modding for potency and ran into problems so you think that will stop Finn teams. You're wrong.

    When it comes down to it It's all about Chewie landing an expose for han to pop.
    So let's look. Chewie has 28% potency. GK has 46% tenacity.
    46-28-15 =3% advantage to start.

    tenacity and potency have equal stats on secondaries. Sets and primaries tenacity has a slight advantage.

    IF someone completely sold out on tenacity: had 3 sets, the primary, and 5 max secondaries and went up against a Chewie that had the same setup with potency, their chance to resist would be 38%. completely selling out on tenacity will gain you a measly 23% chance to resist, which will still leave them exposing you around 2 out of 3 times.

    This is only for the opening strike. Once translation spreads it will be base resist all around. AI doesn't always attack GK either. If it attacks Revan, GMY, or Bastilla, GK will taunt, and RT will wipe tenacity up and chewie will plant tenacity down. so a 38% (23% extra) chance of a resist betting on a 20% chance that Han goes after GK first is a really really low chance that stacking ultimate tenacity on ONLY GK makes a difference at all.

    And the thing is the Finn team should ALREADY be modded with potency like that since they have literally zero other modding needs, so modding for tenacity should gain you that at most despite crippling you by giving up all the other stats you need on GK.

    No, that isn't a solution to defending against Zfinn teams. You're wrong. The chances of that making a difference are slim to none.

    Really you don't need a solution to defend against them since they are easy to beat back.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.

    A "knockoff Finn" team? Do you not like Revan because those Jedi were all from different eras? Palpatine never fought alongside Scion or Nihlus.

    Until Finn is nerfed, this will be the meta Finn team going forward.
    I explained what I meant by that to you already.

    Your advice is kind of like showing how to beat Revan with Jolee when the guy only has 50 speed each on his characters. Poorly modded teams don't count when it comes to giving strategy.

    Your tenacity advice only applies to knockoff Finn teams (unmodded Finn teams) not the ones people actually want to defend against.

    Except it doesnt... If you have enough tenacity (160%, not difficult at all to do) on GK the resistance team can't get a TM train going right off the bat and get everyone to 100% before the Jedi.

    Since it can't get a TM train going it will have to force the tenacity down's through it's own turn meter and not through the intial exposes. Since that is the case, you will need to mod for speed to be able to get tenacity down and land and pop some exposes all before Revan goes and marks one of the guys.

    Once Revan goes, it's game over even if there is tenacity down.


    So yes, unless you can consistently land and hit multiple exposes (which you can't do consistently with modding GK solely for tenacity) only from Han's first shot you can still beat a "proper" Finn team by modding for tenacity.

    I know this because the arena payout ahead of me modded his GK (and only GK really) for Tenacity and I'd have to switch to Revan to beat him.

    So what you're saying is that you didn't bother modding for potency and ran into problems so you think that will stop Finn teams. You're wrong.

    When it comes down to it It's all about Chewie landing an expose for han to pop.
    So let's look. Chewie has 28% potency. GK has 46% tenacity.
    46-28-15 =3% advantage to start.

    tenacity and potency have equal stats on secondaries. Sets and primaries tenacity has a slight advantage.

    IF someone completely sold out on tenacity: had 3 sets, the primary, and 5 max secondaries and went up against a Chewie that had the same setup with potency, their chance to resist would be 28%. completely selling out on tenacity will gain you a measly 10% chance to resist, which will still leave them exposing you over 2 out of 3 times.

    And the thing is the Finn team should ALREADY be modded with potency like that so modding for tenacity should gain you that at most despite crippling you by giving up all the other stats you need on GK.

    No, that isn't a solution to defending against Zfinn teams. You're wrong.

    No I modded ONLY for potency as you said. It's funny though, modding 1 guy for max tenacity is much easier modding than making sure an entire squad is potent.

    You don't realize that if you don't go for GK right away you will just trigger a taunt, meaning that he will be your next guy you have to hit but this time completely clean and with only tenacity up.

    You have to go for GK right away but as you know, the tenacity up is there from the start so that first hit means nothing, the chewy hit is the one where your potency/tenacity check comes into play. If you have your GK tenacity to 145-160% you will stop the expose from triggering much more often than not because you will need both Han and Chewy at max potency just to be within 30% of GK! Even if an expose is landed, you then have to use RT's basic to have Chewy, who's guarding RT, to hit another expose to finally get that TM train rolling (since you can't rely on landing every expose possible up until this point, it's already been stated how if one doesn't land Revan will just mark you and Jedi will kill a major key to the cog on the first turn).

    Once that TM train is rolling is when you can use RT's debuff on GK to completely eliminate the potency/tenacity check. That's like 5 hits that are still all dependant on GK's tenacity.

  • I'm glad to hear we have someone among us who is an expert in the consumer protection regulation regime of every jurisdiction the game is available in.

    I don't actually use zFinn in arena, or much at all. My point in regards to the legalities of completely changing a character that people may have recently invested money in based on statements from CG that implied no change was coming is largely academic.

    That said, if you're seriously of the opinion that CG have been acting ethically more generally of late then I feel pretty sorry for you.
    Ah, yes, as opposed to the highly legally erudite position of, "Maybe some country somewhere has laws such that you could maybe get them for consumer rights violations," for doing their basic stated job of maintaining the game.

    How many people seriously invested not simply gear or energy, but actual money into a launch toon in the narrow window between 3PO's release and the announcement that it would be revised? Given that the announcement that it would be changed came within three days of the event ending, which is a pretty rapid communication turnaround particularly considering that window includes the loop being discovered at all, and the alleged declaration of intent is just that they didn't intend to change it over Finn autoing hAAT.

    Reading into it more than that to claim that CG "implied" they weren't going to change Finn is a pile of rot. If CG were legally liable for imagined implications, then everyone who spent on Nihilus or Sion or Sith come the Palp rework because it "implied" Darth Revan would be entitled to a refund. (They're not.)

    On the question of ethics? The video game industry as a whole is still grappling with the ethics of the fundamental monetization structure of free-to-play microtransaction driven gacha mobile games. But within that nebulous sphere? Galaxy of Heroes is well above average, especially in terms of how it treats free players. So many people are getting on CG's case, but who in the gachasphere is doing better?
    Still not a he.
  • Woodroward
    3743 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.

    A "knockoff Finn" team? Do you not like Revan because those Jedi were all from different eras? Palpatine never fought alongside Scion or Nihlus.

    Until Finn is nerfed, this will be the meta Finn team going forward.
    I explained what I meant by that to you already.

    Your advice is kind of like showing how to beat Revan with Jolee when the guy only has 50 speed each on his characters. Poorly modded teams don't count when it comes to giving strategy.

    Your tenacity advice only applies to knockoff Finn teams (unmodded Finn teams) not the ones people actually want to defend against.

    Except it doesnt... If you have enough tenacity (160%, not difficult at all to do) on GK the resistance team can't get a TM train going right off the bat and get everyone to 100% before the Jedi.

    Since it can't get a TM train going it will have to force the tenacity down's through it's own turn meter and not through the intial exposes. Since that is the case, you will need to mod for speed to be able to get tenacity down and land and pop some exposes all before Revan goes and marks one of the guys.

    Once Revan goes, it's game over even if there is tenacity down.


    So yes, unless you can consistently land and hit multiple exposes (which you can't do consistently with modding GK solely for tenacity) only from Han's first shot you can still beat a "proper" Finn team by modding for tenacity.

    I know this because the arena payout ahead of me modded his GK (and only GK really) for Tenacity and I'd have to switch to Revan to beat him.

    So what you're saying is that you didn't bother modding for potency and ran into problems so you think that will stop Finn teams. You're wrong.

    When it comes down to it It's all about Chewie landing an expose for han to pop.
    So let's look. Chewie has 28% potency. GK has 46% tenacity.
    46-28-15 =3% advantage to start.

    tenacity and potency have equal stats on secondaries. Sets and primaries tenacity has a slight advantage.

    IF someone completely sold out on tenacity: had 3 sets, the primary, and 5 max secondaries and went up against a Chewie that had the same setup with potency, their chance to resist would be 28%. completely selling out on tenacity will gain you a measly 10% chance to resist, which will still leave them exposing you over 2 out of 3 times.

    And the thing is the Finn team should ALREADY be modded with potency like that so modding for tenacity should gain you that at most despite crippling you by giving up all the other stats you need on GK.

    No, that isn't a solution to defending against Zfinn teams. You're wrong.

    No I modded ONLY for potency as you said. It's funny though, modding 1 guy for max tenacity is much easier modding than making sure an entire squad is potent.

    You don't realize that if you don't go for GK right away you will just trigger a taunt, meaning that he will be your next guy you have to hit but this time completely clean and with only tenacity up.

    You have to go for GK right away but as you know, the tenacity up is there from the start so that first hit means nothing, the chewy hit is the one where your potency/tenacity check comes into play. If you have your GK tenacity to 145-160% you will stop the expose from triggering much more often than not because you will need both Han and Chewy at max potency just to be within 30% of GK! Even if an expose is landed, you then have to use RT's basic to have Chewy, who's guarding RT, to hit another expose to finally get that TM train rolling (since you can't rely on landing every expose possible up until this point, it's already been stated how if one doesn't land Revan will just mark you and Jedi will kill a major key to the cog on the first turn).

    Once that TM train is rolling is when you can use RT's debuff on GK to completely eliminate the potency/tenacity check. That's like 5 hits that are still all dependant on GK's tenacity.

    Don't have to go for GK first. Really just have to not go for Jolee first and you'll be fine. Whole squad needs that potency, but Chewie's the one who needs all the max secondaries, no one else does.

    anyone other than GK you still get the tm train started and who goes second? Resistance trooper to wipe the tenacity up and taunt then have chewie assist with tenacity down.

    So it comes down to 1 hit that has a 20% chance of being on GK and is still more likely to land than be resisted.

    One more time, you're wrong, that's not a way to defend against zfinn squads.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    "knockoff versions of teams is misleading and pointless".... No, that's the ENTIRE point.

    It's not an issue against Revan and never will be because it's not OP enough to ever be meta

    That's not the point. You're telling people how to mod to defeat a knockoff version of a finn team. A strategy that won't work against a real finn team.

    Even if it did, it would still be pointless to do, but bad advice is bad advice either way. You're saying not to bother modding but that's how to do it.

    No, the answer is not to bother modding because there is no proper way to do it.
    StarSon wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.

    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Exactly, the tenacity splits cancel each other out and you can't get rid of the tenacity up until the TM train gets rolling. If you were to mod for tenacity to stop this team, you'd very very rarely run into any TM train that gets in your way.

    Once Revan goes and gets all the Jedi going about 7x in a row, you can completely stop this team in it's tracks. It's only an issue for those that don't mod against Finn but as stated countless times, it's completely useless to do that because the team isn't broken enough to ever be a meta.

    Man, you guys are relentless. Stay with me now... The issue in arena isn't the current arena. The issue in arena is future arenas. If it weren't for tenacity up, all the tenacity mods in the world wouldn't save your GK from zFinn, even when you fight that zFinn.

    The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas. If they leave Finn alone, every single meta they design in the future will need to account for it.

    Also, take your own advice...
    Sometimes its better to say nothing than show everyone that you know nothing.
    Because it is super easy to cancel out any tenacity just by modding for potency. And before you do the thing where you mention damage, the damage doesn't matter because it's an infinite loop.

    And, one last time for good measure: The issue with arena isn't the current arena. The issue with arena is future arenas.

    Raid Han and Nest are both good counters to the Zfinn team and I don't see either of those characters getting out of the arena any time soon.

    Any team is good as long as there are counters, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they can steamroll an up and coming meta.

    A "knockoff Finn" team? Do you not like Revan because those Jedi were all from different eras? Palpatine never fought alongside Scion or Nihlus.

    Until Finn is nerfed, this will be the meta Finn team going forward.
    I explained what I meant by that to you already.

    Your advice is kind of like showing how to beat Revan with Jolee when the guy only has 50 speed each on his characters. Poorly modded teams don't count when it comes to giving strategy.

    Your tenacity advice only applies to knockoff Finn teams (unmodded Finn teams) not the ones people actually want to defend against.

    Except it doesnt... If you have enough tenacity (160%, not difficult at all to do) on GK the resistance team can't get a TM train going right off the bat and get everyone to 100% before the Jedi.

    Since it can't get a TM train going it will have to force the tenacity down's through it's own turn meter and not through the intial exposes. Since that is the case, you will need to mod for speed to be able to get tenacity down and land and pop some exposes all before Revan goes and marks one of the guys.

    Once Revan goes, it's game over even if there is tenacity down.


    So yes, unless you can consistently land and hit multiple exposes (which you can't do consistently with modding GK solely for tenacity) only from Han's first shot you can still beat a "proper" Finn team by modding for tenacity.

    I know this because the arena payout ahead of me modded his GK (and only GK really) for Tenacity and I'd have to switch to Revan to beat him.

    So what you're saying is that you didn't bother modding for potency and ran into problems so you think that will stop Finn teams. You're wrong.

    When it comes down to it It's all about Chewie landing an expose for han to pop.
    So let's look. Chewie has 28% potency. GK has 46% tenacity.
    46-28-15 =3% advantage to start.

    tenacity and potency have equal stats on secondaries. Sets and primaries tenacity has a slight advantage.

    IF someone completely sold out on tenacity: had 3 sets, the primary, and 5 max secondaries and went up against a Chewie that had the same setup with potency, their chance to resist would be 28%. completely selling out on tenacity will gain you a measly 10% chance to resist, which will still leave them exposing you over 2 out of 3 times.

    And the thing is the Finn team should ALREADY be modded with potency like that so modding for tenacity should gain you that at most despite crippling you by giving up all the other stats you need on GK.

    No, that isn't a solution to defending against Zfinn teams. You're wrong.

    No I modded ONLY for potency as you said. It's funny though, modding 1 guy for max tenacity is much easier modding than making sure an entire squad is potent.

    You don't realize that if you don't go for GK right away you will just trigger a taunt, meaning that he will be your next guy you have to hit but this time completely clean and with only tenacity up.

    You have to go for GK right away but as you know, the tenacity up is there from the start so that first hit means nothing, the chewy hit is the one where your potency/tenacity check comes into play. If you have your GK tenacity to 145-160% you will stop the expose from triggering much more often than not because you will need both Han and Chewy at max potency just to be within 30% of GK! Even if an expose is landed, you then have to use RT's basic to have Chewy, who's guarding RT, to hit another expose to finally get that TM train rolling (since you can't rely on landing every expose possible up until this point, it's already been stated how if one doesn't land Revan will just mark you and Jedi will kill a major key to the cog on the first turn).

    Once that TM train is rolling is when you can use RT's debuff on GK to completely eliminate the potency/tenacity check. That's like 5 hits that are still all dependant on GK's tenacity.

    Don't have to go for GK first. Really just have to not go for Jolee first and you'll be fine. Whole squad needs that potency, but Chewie's the one who needs all the max secondaries, no one else does.

    anyone other than GK you still get the tm train started and who goes second? Resistance trooper to wipe the tenacity up and taunt then have chewie assist with tenacity down.

    So it comes down to 1 hit that has a 20% chance of being on GK and is still more likely to land than be resisted.

    One more time, you're wrong, that's not a way to defend against zfinn squads.

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads
  • I'm done with this though, you're wrong and clearly don't think that Tenacity is the counter to a zFinn. That's all I need to know.

    This isn't some OP team that can't lose and sure as heck doesn't win on defense. There's no point and I am leaving work now so there's no point in arguing any more.
  • Woodroward
    3743 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads

    RT will still have 70% tm after his turn. Guess who's going 3rd? Guess how many exposes get popped on RT's 2nd turn? 2.

    TM train rolls on man. I run zfinn in arena myself. You are wrong. Stacking tenacity isn't the way to defend against finn teams... there isn't one, not by modding.

    You want to defend against zfinn? Throw in Nest cause you ain't stopping zfiinn teams by remodding, that's a pipe dream.

    So, for the last time, you're wrong. You can't defend against zfinn teams by changing the mods on your revan squad. Not if the finn team is modded properly, and who cares about knockoff squads?

    Bringing them up is misleading like saying you can beat Revan with jolee with JTR Raid squad (if the guy had less than 50 speed on each sure, but it's misleading).
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads

    RT will still have 70% tm after his turn. Guess who's going 3rd? Guess how many exposes get popped on RT's 2nd turn? 2.

    TM train rolls on man. I run zfinn in arena myself. You are wrong. Stacking tenacity isn't the way to defend against finn teams... there isn't one, not by modding.

    You want to defend against zfinn? Throw in Nest cause you ain't stopping zfiinn teams by remodding, that's a pipe dream.

    So, for the last time, you're wrong. You can't defend against zfinn teams by changing the mods on your revan squad. Not if the finn team is modded properly, and who cares about knockoff squads?

    Bringing them up is misleading like saying you can beat Revan with jolee with JTR Raid squad (if the guy had less than 50 speed on each sure, but it's misleading).

    Of course stacking tenacity doesn't make it unbeatable. You're crazy though if you think there's literally no counter to this team though to massively improve your odds, if you don't mod tenacity the only shot the team has at a defense is when Savior rolls around. Even with max potency, the only thing that intial potency/tenacity check does is give you infinitely better RNG. When did I ever say you were stopping a Finn squad from ever jumping you??

    Modding for tenacity sure as heck helps and stops the team much much much more often than if you were to not. It absolutely works as a roadblock, not an entire wall though.

    You're the ridiculous one speaking in extremes mentioning how false 50 speed jolee comparisons.Getting a GK's tenacity to 160% is much more likely than some knockoff Revan squad.
  • SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    I'm done with this though... There's no point and I am leaving work now so there's no point in arguing any more.


    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads

    RT will still have 70% tm after his turn. Guess who's going 3rd? Guess how many exposes get popped on RT's 2nd turn? 2.

    TM train rolls on man. I run zfinn in arena myself. You are wrong. Stacking tenacity isn't the way to defend against finn teams... there isn't one, not by modding.

    You want to defend against zfinn? Throw in Nest cause you ain't stopping zfiinn teams by remodding, that's a pipe dream.

    So, for the last time, you're wrong. You can't defend against zfinn teams by changing the mods on your revan squad. Not if the finn team is modded properly, and who cares about knockoff squads?

    Bringing them up is misleading like saying you can beat Revan with jolee with JTR Raid squad (if the guy had less than 50 speed on each sure, but it's misleading).

    Of course stacking tenacity doesn't make it unbeatable. You're crazy though if you think there's literally no counter to this team though to massively improve your odds, if you don't mod tenacity the only shot the team has at a defense is when Savior rolls around. Even with max potency, the only thing that intial potency/tenacity check does is give you infinitely better RNG. When did I ever say you were stopping a Finn squad from ever jumping you??

    Modding for tenacity sure as heck helps and stops the team much much much more often than if you were to not. It absolutely works as a roadblock, not an entire wall though.

    You're the ridiculous one speaking in extremes mentioning how false 50 speed jolee comparisons.Getting a GK's tenacity to 160% is much more likely than some knockoff Revan squad.

    Huh...
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    Woodroward wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.


    do you even play this game? Revan team starts with tenacity up, tenacity down cancels tenacity up and you're left with your potency against opponent tenacity. If GK dodges Chewbaca its auto loss, if GK resists 1 or 2 exposes its also auto loss. The OP is 100% in telling you to counter zFinn by modding for tenacity. Obviuosly its a BAD strategy because you should be a lot more worried about 90% of Revans in the arena than 2% of Finns so its not a good strategy, but that is not the point.

    he's wrong though. Modding for tenacity won't help against properly modded Finn teams since they'll have mods completely sold out to potency and absolutely nothing else. No damage, no speed, no crit, just potency and you'll simply have base resist against them anyway.


    Do you actually run ZFinn in arena or you just think what you said above? It doesn't sound like you do.

    I still run ZFinn to climb sometimes and have done so since the 1st week this team came out and I can tell you with vast experience that high tenacity GK is a matchup ZFinn teams should avoid.

    And, if you ran them enough, you would know that even with potency over 100%, there will be resists and missed shots from anyone not called Han. That means game over.

    GK's base tenacity is 46%. Add him 1 tenacity set and a tenacity primary cross and ZFinn rebels is gonna have a hard time, if they target GK first.

    Pretty much all it takes for JKR to beat ZFinn is taking 1 single turn. And, yes ZFinn teams need speed in order to avoid that.
  • SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    If this was really the case, you would see a ton of Finn teams in the arena. As a great man once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How many Finn teams do you see in your Arena? If you say "people just use them to climb", is no one climbing now?! Amazing!!

    I have already had this debate a few pages ago, and will not repeat all of it. But JKR *has* a counter already in Savior, which is why zFinn isn't meta right now, even though it can still win on defense against JKR because sometimes the JKR offense team just won't get a turn. If you don't think that's a problem, I can't help you.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Don't touch Finn. If you're unhappy with people soloing P3 of the raid, change P3.

    If P3 was the only issue, I'd imagine that they would just change it. But the infinite loop in other areas (namely arena) means they can't just leave Finn, or they would always have to build in something to counter it.

    P3 IS the only issue. CG has said as much.

    Quote, please.

    "Cool video and cool strategy. Wanted to chime in real quick and say that we have no intention of changing this interaction or strategy only for the AA..."

    They knew that the interaction was completely doable for an "infinite loop" and even said that it completely destroying the HAAT isn't worthy of doing anything for it... You're trying to tell me that they knew a loop (based on tenacity) was possible and yet it never crossed there mind that it may possibly work in arena too?
    ....
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/a6d2el/this_is_the_droid_youre_looking_for/?utm_source=reddit-android

    The existence of the p3 solo that they didn't know about disproves your point. They knew it did this in hAAT, but did not know it did it in hSTR. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they did not know it did this in arena.

    They have stacking tenacity at darn near every part of the raid... the much more likely outcome is they didn’t know raid mechanics


    There is NO infinite loop in arena though, mod correctly and you will never get beat by a Finn team

    idk, this looks like an infinite loop to me...

    dlhdoe1xfp8c.png

    Then mod for tenacity... I’ve gone against zEP and never gotten a turn. Is that broken?

    If Finn was so OP and the TM gain was impossible to stop why aren’t there more Finns in your arena?

    Tenacity down renders Tenacity mostly useless. But nice try.

    And honestly, I don't know why I have to keep saying this. There aren't more Finns because it rarely wins on defense right now, because JKR has a bonus turn mechanic that generally allows a human to win.


    do you even play this game? Revan team starts with tenacity up, tenacity down cancels tenacity up and you're left with your potency against opponent tenacity. If GK dodges Chewbaca its auto loss, if GK resists 1 or 2 exposes its also auto loss. The OP is 100% in telling you to counter zFinn by modding for tenacity. Obviuosly its a BAD strategy because you should be a lot more worried about 90% of Revans in the arena than 2% of Finns so its not a good strategy, but that is not the point.

    he's wrong though. Modding for tenacity won't help against properly modded Finn teams since they'll have mods completely sold out to potency and absolutely nothing else. No damage, no speed, no crit, just potency and you'll simply have base resist against them anyway.

    Except Im not wrong though, modding specifically to counter a Finn just makes no sense.

    If you mod for tenacity you will beat Finn almost 100% of the time, just lose to other Revans 100% of the time. pick your poison.

    but you are wrong. Firstly, it isn't about beating Finn it's about defending against him.

    Secondly, modding for tenacity won't change that outcome one iota. The finn team will have more potency (since they have literally 0 other modding needs besides potency) than your tenacity so it will still just be base resist chance of 15%.

    Literally the only thing that could possibly hold them up is resists so any finn team that isn't sold out on potency is an unmodded finn team. You won't hold against modded Finn teams by stacking tenacity.

    and if you were to mod your team strictly for only tenacity and only tenacity you will steamroll the kitten outta every finn team you ever see and no one will be able to beat you either. The problem is that Revan will stomp you.

    So yes, you're wrong. You're right that it will never happen, because Revan is the meta but if Finn actually were a problem you'd see more tenacity based builds.

    I run zinn in arena. I have over 100% of potency on everyone. But if someone sticks a tenacity cross on gk, i will lose 4 battles out of 5, easy.
  • Woodroward
    3743 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    @dominiQC That only works if the Finn rebels are not modded for potency. Since they literally have 0 other modding needs besides potency, your GK can not outstack them on tenacity since he needs protection and/or defense to hold up against other teams.

    Basically, modding for tenacity to hold against zfinn rebels is
    A. a bad idea since they're easy to beat back and its more important to hold against other teams
    B. pointless since you can't win in the mod race anyway.

    @Woodroward

    You obviously never ran the zFinn to say this. Stacking potency on GK prevents the opening exposes to be applied on him as Chewie's tenacity down will only nullifies tenacity up. You will never land an expose with han or chewie on him with Han's shoots first therefore the TM train will not be underway.

    If you do own that team but obviously no one in your shard stacks tenacity on GK, then try opening on Jolee instead and see the results (then if nobody stacks tenacity on Jolee in your shard means nobody understands game mechanics in that said shard...)

    never my behind. IF they stack tenacity on him it will ever so slightly improve their chances of getting a resist, but you know what? they can't stack enough tenacity on him to outpace potency more than an ever so slight advantage over base resist, the scale is still in the favor of potency (62%chance to land that debuff), and if they do it to the level necessary to get over base resist, GK would be so squishy that the team wouldn't hold on defense to anybody else either. I say either because it won't make them hold against the Zfinn team.

    Do the math. I did. You can't outclass potency with tenacity like that. Except in special cases like Jolee. But stacking it on GK isn't going to stop any finn team that is modded for potency. If it isn't modded for potency it's a poor finn team and not worth mentioning.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads

    RT will still have 70% tm after his turn. Guess who's going 3rd? Guess how many exposes get popped on RT's 2nd turn? 2.

    TM train rolls on man. I run zfinn in arena myself. You are wrong. Stacking tenacity isn't the way to defend against finn teams... there isn't one, not by modding.

    You want to defend against zfinn? Throw in Nest cause you ain't stopping zfiinn teams by remodding, that's a pipe dream.

    So, for the last time, you're wrong. You can't defend against zfinn teams by changing the mods on your revan squad. Not if the finn team is modded properly, and who cares about knockoff squads?

    Bringing them up is misleading like saying you can beat Revan with jolee with JTR Raid squad (if the guy had less than 50 speed on each sure, but it's misleading).

    Of course stacking tenacity doesn't make it unbeatable. You're crazy though if you think there's literally no counter to this team though to massively improve your odds, if you don't mod tenacity the only shot the team has at a defense is when Savior rolls around. Even with max potency, the only thing that intial potency/tenacity check does is give you infinitely better RNG. When did I ever say you were stopping a Finn squad from ever jumping you??

    Modding for tenacity sure as heck helps and stops the team much much much more often than if you were to not. It absolutely works as a roadblock, not an entire wall though.

    You're the ridiculous one speaking in extremes mentioning how false 50 speed jolee comparisons.Getting a GK's tenacity to 160% is much more likely than some knockoff Revan squad.
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads

    RT will still have 70% tm after his turn. Guess who's going 3rd? Guess how many exposes get popped on RT's 2nd turn? 2.

    TM train rolls on man. I run zfinn in arena myself. You are wrong. Stacking tenacity isn't the way to defend against finn teams... there isn't one, not by modding.

    You want to defend against zfinn? Throw in Nest cause you ain't stopping zfiinn teams by remodding, that's a pipe dream.

    So, for the last time, you're wrong. You can't defend against zfinn teams by changing the mods on your revan squad. Not if the finn team is modded properly, and who cares about knockoff squads?

    Bringing them up is misleading like saying you can beat Revan with jolee with JTR Raid squad (if the guy had less than 50 speed on each sure, but it's misleading).

    Sorry I don't believe you man. Swgoh pls. I think you are 100% lying about having a zFinn.

    I don't care if you believe me or not, but either way my swgoh.gg is in my signature.
    Post edited by Woodroward on
  • Woodroward
    3743 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Woodroward wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    High tenacity on GK kills zFinn rebels. Just because it prevents expose from Han shoots first and get the TM train running.
    @dominiQC That only works if the Finn rebels are not modded for potency. Since they literally have 0 other modding needs besides potency, your GK can not outstack them on tenacity since he needs protection and/or defense to hold up against other teams.

    Basically, modding for tenacity to hold against zfinn rebels is
    A. a bad idea since they're easy to beat back and its more important to hold against other teams
    B. pointless since you can't win in the mod race anyway.

    @Woodroward

    You obviously never ran the zFinn to say this. Stacking potency on GK prevents the opening exposes to be applied on him as Chewie's tenacity down will only nullifies tenacity up. You will never land an expose with han or chewie on him with Han's shoots first therefore the TM train will not be underway.

    If you do own that team but obviously no one in your shard stacks tenacity on GK, then try opening on Jolee instead and see the results (then if nobody stacks tenacity on Jolee in your shard means nobody understands game mechanics in that said shard...)

    never my behind. IF they stack tenacity on him it will ever so slightly improve their chances of getting a resist, but you know what? they can't stack enough tenacity on him to outpace potency more than an ever so slight advantage, and if they do GK would be so squishy the team wouldn't hold on defense to anybody else either.

    Do the math. I did. You can't outclass potency with tenacity like that. Except in special cases like Jolee. But stacking it on GK isn't going to stop any finn team that is modded for potency. If it isn't modded for potency it's a poor finn team and not worth mentioning.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads

    RT will still have 70% tm after his turn. Guess who's going 3rd? Guess how many exposes get popped on RT's 2nd turn? 2.

    TM train rolls on man. I run zfinn in arena myself. You are wrong. Stacking tenacity isn't the way to defend against finn teams... there isn't one, not by modding.

    You want to defend against zfinn? Throw in Nest cause you ain't stopping zfiinn teams by remodding, that's a pipe dream.

    So, for the last time, you're wrong. You can't defend against zfinn teams by changing the mods on your revan squad. Not if the finn team is modded properly, and who cares about knockoff squads?

    Bringing them up is misleading like saying you can beat Revan with jolee with JTR Raid squad (if the guy had less than 50 speed on each sure, but it's misleading).

    Of course stacking tenacity doesn't make it unbeatable. You're crazy though if you think there's literally no counter to this team though to massively improve your odds, if you don't mod tenacity the only shot the team has at a defense is when Savior rolls around. Even with max potency, the only thing that intial potency/tenacity check does is give you infinitely better RNG. When did I ever say you were stopping a Finn squad from ever jumping you??

    Modding for tenacity sure as heck helps and stops the team much much much more often than if you were to not. It absolutely works as a roadblock, not an entire wall though.

    You're the ridiculous one speaking in extremes mentioning how false 50 speed jolee comparisons.Getting a GK's tenacity to 160% is much more likely than some knockoff Revan squad.
    Woodroward wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »

    Again, you're wrong. Going for other guys guarantees you are only able to hit 1 expose off the intial onslaught because you will have to follow up your next hits on a completely clean, tenacity up GK and have to use that max of 35% TM gain to trigger the tenacity down, follow that up by landing an expose and popping it.... Even with that 35% start (if you land from Chewy and Han hits)

    That 35% TM boost is hardly enough of the death sentence you are making it seem because the Revan squad is sooo much better than any single team in the game because it was built that way.


    And LOL at Tenacity isn't the way to defend against zFinn squads

    RT will still have 70% tm after his turn. Guess who's going 3rd? Guess how many exposes get popped on RT's 2nd turn? 2.

    TM train rolls on man. I run zfinn in arena myself. You are wrong. Stacking tenacity isn't the way to defend against finn teams... there isn't one, not by modding.

    You want to defend against zfinn? Throw in Nest cause you ain't stopping zfiinn teams by remodding, that's a pipe dream.

    So, for the last time, you're wrong. You can't defend against zfinn teams by changing the mods on your revan squad. Not if the finn team is modded properly, and who cares about knockoff squads?

    Bringing them up is misleading like saying you can beat Revan with jolee with JTR Raid squad (if the guy had less than 50 speed on each sure, but it's misleading).

    Sorry I don't believe you man. Swgoh pls. I think you are 100% lying about having a zFinn.

    I don't care if you believe me or not, but either way my swgoh.gg is in my signature.

    3k posts and still no clue about how the game works. Very sad.

    3k posts and still doesn't care about the opinion of someone with less than 100 who was given the information they asked for before they asked for it and several times since. Very understandable.
    Post edited by Woodroward on
  • Gorem
    1185 posts Member
    I love how so many posts have been about Finn in arena, when the whole reason CG said this nerf was coming, was because of P3 HSTR... ;D

    Literatlly just P3 HSTR

    Even when zFinn was soloing HAAT with no mods, they said, the devs said themselves, that it was ok.

    Yet, P3 happened and bam nerf.

    And now, arena talk. lol.
  • Mzee
    1777 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Any update on this? Been a month and I haven't heard anything.
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    I'm glad to hear we have someone among us who is an expert in the consumer protection regulation regime of every jurisdiction the game is available in.

    I don't actually use zFinn in arena, or much at all. My point in regards to the legalities of completely changing a character that people may have recently invested money in based on statements from CG that implied no change was coming is largely academic.

    That said, if you're seriously of the opinion that CG have been acting ethically more generally of late then I feel pretty sorry for you.
    Ah, yes, as opposed to the highly legally erudite position of, "Maybe some country somewhere has laws such that you could maybe get them for consumer rights violations," for doing their basic stated job of maintaining the game.

    How many people seriously invested not simply gear or energy, but actual money into a launch toon in the narrow window between 3PO's release and the announcement that it would be revised? Given that the announcement that it would be changed came within three days of the event ending, which is a pretty rapid communication turnaround particularly considering that window includes the loop being discovered at all, and the alleged declaration of intent is just that they didn't intend to change it over Finn autoing hAAT.

    Reading into it more than that to claim that CG "implied" they weren't going to change Finn is a pile of rot. If CG were legally liable for imagined implications, then everyone who spent on Nihilus or Sion or Sith come the Palp rework because it "implied" Darth Revan would be entitled to a refund. (They're not.)

    On the question of ethics? The video game industry as a whole is still grappling with the ethics of the fundamental monetization structure of free-to-play microtransaction driven gacha mobile games. But within that nebulous sphere? Galaxy of Heroes is well above average, especially in terms of how it treats free players. So many people are getting on CG's case, but who in the gachasphere is doing better?


    You are 100% entitled to your own opinion, but that doesn't make it right. My understanding differs from yours on this matter greatly and I'll try to explain briefly.

    This game is monetized. Call it microtransaction or any other name you prefer, but once you have money involved, a seller and a buyer, the reality is a consumer relation between players and the game providers.

    Yes, one can go through this game 100% ftp it it wishes to do so (and I agree this game is top notch when it comes to that), but often times a lot of people playing this game will transfer real life money into character shards or in-game currency, for example.

    Would it be difficult to connect a zeta set (to refer to this case) to real money, thus a consumer relation? Not really. Just follow the bread crums and the connection is very easy to establish.

    This is a worldwide game and, in every country it is available, there are laws to abide. A video game cannot and will not, under any circumstances, be above the legal system and that is just one of many implications and complications the globalized internet market has to deal with.

    While countries have different laws and legal systems, it's very safe to say there is plenty of common ground between them. CG has a big responsibility to conduct this operation in accordance to those more basic amd generic principles, to avoid, in a very extreme scenario, having the game banned from an entire market.

    Returning zetas and omegas should be THE policy, when it comes to reworks. Let players decide what's best for them, doing the morally right thing and avoiding any legal issues on this regard. I see a win/win right there.

    I am not saying my understanding is the only possible understanding on this matter, but that'a how I see it.
  • Kyno
    26593 posts Moderator
    Mzee wrote: »
    Any update on this? Been a month and I haven't heard anything.

    @Mzee
    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/comment/1795338#Comment_1795338
    ucbflddp6h8u.jpg
  • Also the game is down and unable to play I'm losing cristal s because this is my Arena run time thanks Developers
  • Am I the only person who really likes this change? The way it's worded looks like it is giving 5% turn meter per resistance ally, that is only 10% less than before, plus you are taking away 15% if you run a full resistance team. Not only that, their hits will actually deal a reasonable amount of damage. 60% offence boost is insane, as well as them landing exposes with that 60% potency. Both of his damaging attacks are gonna start hitting like a truck, especially in raids. And his hold the line will FINALLY not be the worst mass cleanse in the game. I use him in p1 of the str since my RT is only 5 stars right now. I only have the roll with the punches zeta on bb8 and he always dies from nihlus hitting through protection since illuminated destiny only heals protection. Now finn will be able to help keep everyone alive, this is such a good change. You guys keep saying that this is like buying a car and then two years later they take it away, but there is something you are missing. Zeta's don't cost money, this is a free to play game and one of the few parts of the game that can't be bought. It has cost you literally nothing to get him zeta'd. I think a better metaphor would be this; someone gives you a plant for free. The plant is very healthy and nice to look at. A few weeks later the plant dies, you go back to that person and tell them you want a new plant. These are just my thoughts, so good job CG, you have made an awesome game and I fully approve of this rework. Finn's mechanics were the dumbest thing in this game until Revan. So I give this a thumbs up!
This discussion has been closed.