SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    @Xagen more than 15 toons. People generally aren't using SEE with Sid (who, I guess, inspired this GL with his 16k crits)

    @LordDunbar That's Dark Omega, a prominent Sith Youtuber. He has SLKR, probably just had his payout, and probably uses SLKR still for the most part, so people showing that sort of screenshot aren't really saying anything useful other than advertising suspect intentions. That said, Dark Omega hasn't put out any SEE videos. Maybe he's still figuring stuff out, or maybe he's busy, or maybe there's nothing that interesting to show with SEE.
  • LordDunbar
    413 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    dgree wrote: »
    @LordDunbar That's Dark Omega, a prominent Sith Youtuber. He has SLKR, probably just had his payout, and probably uses SLKR still for the most part, so people showing that sort of screenshot aren't really saying anything useful other than advertising suspect intentions. That said, Dark Omega hasn't put out any SEE videos. Maybe he's still figuring stuff out, or maybe he's busy, or maybe there's nothing that interesting to show with SEE.

    I feel you on the suspect intentions. Yeah, non-SEE owners probably reallly don't want SEE to get a buff, because the last time CG buffed a GL, we got a monster than can solo the sith raid and 5v1 other GLs.

    Understandable. But I don't think we are asking for SEE to be buffed into an unstoppable demigod. We just want him to not suck, and be moderately competitive with the other GLs.

  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    @dgree Yes, sure absolutely true, i just take an example how to use him on Grand Arena with Vader, Trawn, Royal Guard, smb else, as beiing in first Divison I really will need separate Triumvirate and DRevan team for attack. But for Arena yes 15 toons to farm+ Triumvirate+ 5 toons from Drevan Team, and in the end he could counter 50 per cent of Arena. it's madness
  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.

  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Additional expensive team for what?
  • Eweff
    370 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret

    I second this. There isn’t anything that SEE does positively that you can’t already do cheaper/easier/more efficiently with another team, as far as I have seen.
  • Sewpot
    1556 posts Member
    Xagen wrote: »
    Additional expensive team for what?

    By the sounds of it for that one magic counter team you might come across that you can solo or at the least not lose a team member if for banners.
    Like finding a unicorn really.
    Spoiler!
    Your opponent will definitely not put that in defence for you.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    @Kyno well, we've stated how SEE doesn't meet the design insights. He has issues charging ultimate (linked) and surviving to ultimate (poor leadership/synergy), and probably the most important is that even if he pulls this off his damage is low. Fortunately we do have more attention on that, but we can also see that his damage is a lot better vs specific faction enemies.

    So I guess the part I got confused about is context. If the context includes SLKR battles, we have a lot of evidence for this not working. If the context is anything else, it's going to be a mixed bag. Sith Empire and Triumvirate can beat a lot of teams out there just like JKR and JKL can, so at that point it's just going to take a lot of battles and maybe streams for people to figure out exactly what SEE's contribution is and whether it's enough. No one knows what the balance is supposed to be if the context is no longer the sort of meta dominance people expect from these new mega-toons. I don't know if I can help with that or what I'd ask for. Oh, also I was the StarCraft guy.



    @LordDunbar

    I'm happy to be open with my intentions, so people being circumspect strikes me as bizarre. I'm not a big spender, I'm a Sith fan, but I'm not willing to follow Sith to the grave just because they've been neglected so much.

    So I hope it turns out that SEE provides me with some value worth justifying the investment, even if he's not at the same power level as SLKR (*cough* CG announcements *ahem*). But if not, it's disappointing but for the foreseeable future I guess I'll just sit on my resources and wait (maybe future meta, possibly JML although people in my shard and younger rarely have the sort of old-school LS roster needed to support that).
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    i like very much example of GAS, you have good 5 toons for Light Side, good 5 toons for Dark Side, both teams are good for both Geos, i receive gas, top arena with 501 half a year ago, with Revan gas capable to counter Rey, with JKL can beat Kylo, each your investment for these teams brings you very much. What we have with SEE ? Mostly empire toons half of them look like garbage, Vader seems very good without SEE, Sion and Malak at all from other good teams that you have to break. What we have in the end phantom counter on Arena, but Arena consists of 50 percent from Kylo, and our SEE just steps away. Good for Dark Geo, but we have many other goods teams, MAW at all has taken 33 without mythic SEEs at Dark Geo.
  • Xagen wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Ripperpa wrote: »
    s9om1klui6q0.jpg

    Yeah the new gls are really bad...

    Watch him drop like a rock.


    I feel like in that last video, if SLKR didnt have damage immunity under his ultimate, then SEE could have won the battle with his ultimate
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Just my assumption regarding new GLs, CG think that people will farm Luke and SEE, because Kylo will face some troubles with Luke, Kylo owners will have to farm See to counter Luke. But it doesn't happen, Kylo still can beat JML with couple of good toons from SE, Empire, but the state of SEE in this case won't be changed regarding SEE vs Kylo. So SEE's role in this play seems not very important. that's why we always hear about mythic rock, paper etc.
  • Kyno wrote: »



    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    He doesn't though. Just because you put him in a team that can already beat the LS GLs doesn't mean he's carrying the team. I'm speaking of GLRey here because I haven't tried any teams without him vs JML yet but I suspect the same.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    @vincentlondon I'm not sure for 100 per cent, but because SLKR was with Malak, i tested gas with 501 against Ultimate Kylo with Alpha and Malak, and could win, but when 2 First Order tanks are used it's very difficult to counter such team 6p9w9pwq2ve5.png. They have good synergy.

  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret

    When they were released, you saw the kit for SEE and thought he was going to be the next counter to SLKR?

    With all the very specific LS stuff he had laid out in his kit, that was not what I saw.

    I'm not saying I thought he wouldnt be able to win in some way, but his kit is a wait and attack kit, SLKR is the anti wait kit. Waiting to do anything against SLKR is always a bad idea. IMO.
  • drbloor
    11 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    .
  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno well, we've stated how SEE doesn't meet the design insights. He has issues charging ultimate (linked) and surviving to ultimate (poor leadership/synergy), and probably the most important is that even if he pulls this off his damage is low. Fortunately we do have more attention on that, but we can also see that his damage is a lot better vs specific faction enemies.

    So I guess the part I got confused about is context. If the context includes SLKR battles, we have a lot of evidence for this not working. If the context is anything else, it's going to be a mixed bag. Sith Empire and Triumvirate can beat a lot of teams out there just like JKR and JKL can, so at that point it's just going to take a lot of battles and maybe streams for people to figure out exactly what SEE's contribution is and whether it's enough. No one knows what the balance is supposed to be if the context is no longer the sort of meta dominance people expect from these new mega-toons. I don't know if I can help with that or what I'd ask for. Oh, also I was the StarCraft guy.



    LordDunbar

    I'm happy to be open with my intentions, so people being circumspect strikes me as bizarre. I'm not a big spender, I'm a Sith fan, but I'm not willing to follow Sith to the grave just because they've been neglected so much.

    So I hope it turns out that SEE provides me with some value worth justifying the investment, even if he's not at the same power level as SLKR (*cough* CG announcements *ahem*). But if not, it's disappointing but for the foreseeable future I guess I'll just sit on my resources and wait (maybe future meta, possibly JML although people in my shard and younger rarely have the sort of old-school LS roster needed to support that).

    I agree that we dont have a direct bearing on what the balance should be, since they stated they would be on par and that means this was not really intended to be a meta shifting set of toons.

    you were asking for statements that I think are counter to "we are keeping an eye on it", which means they are not immediately happy with where things are IMO, so feeding them information and trying to push the point is all we can do at this point.

    I dont think anyone here is saying he is where he should be. I do think people may be asking for specific things, that are not necessarily in the cards, but thats just IMO.
  • Sithlords_Inc
    174 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret

    When they were released, you saw the kit for SEE and thought he was going to be the next counter to SLKR?

    With all the very specific LS stuff he had laid out in his kit, that was not what I saw.

    I'm not saying I thought he wouldnt be able to win in some way, but his kit is a wait and attack kit, SLKR is the anti wait kit. Waiting to do anything against SLKR is always a bad idea. IMO.

    Think the Issue is that people expected him to be able to beat Kylo once the waiting was over, but as it stands now he feels significantly weaker even after transforming which feels rather unfair seeing how Kylo can kick **** from the get go.

    While Im fine with him not doing well against Kylo, the issue is hes not very good against Rey either. While you can beat her fairly reliably on offense (Id say about 70-80%) thats mainly because you have bastilla and vader keeping Rey from whirlwinding your team into oblivion, and even then most if not all of your teammates will be dead by the end. If anything Reys kit is more of a counter to SEE. And in a 1v1 SEE is desperately struggling to kill Rey against the clock, unlike Kylo who can easily finish her.
    SEE even fails to beat JML if hes using Bastilla lead Wat.
  • I want to know if it’s a bug that SEE can’t drain Prot Up from JML. If Wat’s tech can treat Prot Up as max protection to heal it, SEe should do the same to drain it.
  • I have a good shard mate that has a decent roster that can record vids. I have 3 rey vids vs SEE defense (Rey titans, rey droids, full resistance) and they all smashed SEE with little effort.

    I'll post those 3 along with others ill try to get him to take with other teams tonight if he's willing and not drunk at the time.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret

    When they were released, you saw the kit for SEE and thought he was going to be the next counter to SLKR?

    With all the very specific LS stuff he had laid out in his kit, that was not what I saw.

    I'm not saying I thought he wouldnt be able to win in some way, but his kit is a wait and attack kit, SLKR is the anti wait kit. Waiting to do anything against SLKR is always a bad idea. IMO.

    Ok, 4 tanks were recommended for Palp whose damage is not so impressive, as people mostly use Vader, DRevan other strong attackers, Malak was recommended for Palp who restores protection for siths mostly based on health steal, Sion cannot be revived. SEE has anti-Jedi and anti-Rebels specs but don't have synergy with Empire at all, only after death of Sith ally, other siths recover Health/Protection, but we have only 3 sith tanks at all instead of recommended 4. Maybe i'm wrong but every mentioned detail of Palp's description is very contradictive.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Just admit, that Palp was released for one specific purpose, counter JML/Jedi, but apart from this class we have many other teams and it's appeared that he isn't designed for that. For investment in 15 toons plus other siths people receive counter to Jedi. that's all. that's the problem
  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret

    When they were released, you saw the kit for SEE and thought he was going to be the next counter to SLKR?

    With all the very specific LS stuff he had laid out in his kit, that was not what I saw.

    I'm not saying I thought he wouldnt be able to win in some way, but his kit is a wait and attack kit, SLKR is the anti wait kit. Waiting to do anything against SLKR is always a bad idea. IMO.

    Think the Issue is that people expected him to be able to beat Kylo once the waiting was over, but as it stands now he feels significantly weaker even after transforming which feels rather unfair seeing how Kylo can kick **** from the get go.

    While Im fine with him not doing well against Kylo, the issue is hes not very good against Rey either. While you can beat her fairly reliably on offense (Id say about 70-80%) thats mainly because you have bastilla and vader keeping Rey from whirlwinding your team into oblivion, and even then most if not all of your teammates will be dead by the end. If anything Reys kit is more of a counter to SEE. And in a 1v1 SEE is desperately struggling to kill Rey against the clock, unlike Kylo who can easily finish her.
    SEE even fails to beat JML if hes using Bastilla lead Wat.

    and from what we saw in one of the more recent attempts he gets close, maybe there is still some work that can be done there.

    SLKR stacking mastery the whole time, I didn't look at his kit and think he was going to beat SLKR, not reliably. even after the wait....its the wait that kills you against SLKR. but thats just me.

    SEE failing against a specific comp is understandable.

    I understand there is an issue that people see with what you are stating there, and that is why we are asking for people to showcase this and discuss the points of interested that can be changed.

  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Because JML team consists of JKL, Revan, GAS, no wonder that Jedi team looks good, as JML himself is not so strong (still countered by DREVAN), SEE has a number of specs designed specially against JML. But make JML himself strong as Kylo or Rey Palp will lose. We made sure that buffs from Bastila and Wat make JML looks good. So JML is not so powerful himself as old GLs, and See with all his anti-Jedi kit applicable against Jedi, looks weak when we place him against Kylo or even Rey with recommended tanks
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    @Kyno Please have a look
  • What are we looking for?
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Kylo and SEE beat Luke under Bastila with WAT,
  • Sithlords_Inc
    174 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret

    When they were released, you saw the kit for SEE and thought he was going to be the next counter to SLKR?

    With all the very specific LS stuff he had laid out in his kit, that was not what I saw.

    I'm not saying I thought he wouldnt be able to win in some way, but his kit is a wait and attack kit, SLKR is the anti wait kit. Waiting to do anything against SLKR is always a bad idea. IMO.

    Think the Issue is that people expected him to be able to beat Kylo once the waiting was over, but as it stands now he feels significantly weaker even after transforming which feels rather unfair seeing how Kylo can kick **** from the get go.

    While Im fine with him not doing well against Kylo, the issue is hes not very good against Rey either. While you can beat her fairly reliably on offense (Id say about 70-80%) thats mainly because you have bastilla and vader keeping Rey from whirlwinding your team into oblivion, and even then most if not all of your teammates will be dead by the end. If anything Reys kit is more of a counter to SEE. And in a 1v1 SEE is desperately struggling to kill Rey against the clock, unlike Kylo who can easily finish her.
    SEE even fails to beat JML if hes using Bastilla lead Wat.

    and from what we saw in one of the more recent attempts he gets close, maybe there is still some work that can be done there.

    SLKR stacking mastery the whole time, I didn't look at his kit and think he was going to beat SLKR, not reliably. even after the wait....its the wait that kills you against SLKR. but thats just me.

    SEE failing against a specific comp is understandable.

    I understand there is an issue that people see with what you are stating there, and that is why we are asking for people to showcase this and discuss the points of interested that can be changed.

    Considering SEE gets demolished by Kylo, struggles against Rey and have 0 value on defense, failing against the only GL (and one of the few teams in general) hes apparently designed to do well against can hardly be seen as understandable.

    Just consider the implications that has for GA. You cant put him on defense. You cant use him against Kylo. You dont want to use him against Rey, since that requires you to spend an already great Sith team for an not even guaranteed low banner victory. And if your opponent has GML and put the bastilla team on defense you cant even use SEE for that. That pretty much relegates SEE to be a glorified CLS counter. If you want a good GAS counter you could just go for ChewPO instead and press auto with CLS.

    I cant possibly see how making people unlock a GL just to force them to use him against teams with 1/5 of the cost can be considered understandable.
  • Just realised that ChewPO CLS even beats Bastilla lead GML, and since both Drevan and EP can already beat standard GML teams youre objectively better of going for ChewPO than SEE 🤪
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