Potential CAT AI changes …

Replies

  • TVF
    30948 posts Member
    fajha_jaba wrote: »
    They are discouraging new to moderate roster players, who are supposed to be the future of the game.

    They face other new to moderate roster players in arena, since everyone starts at the same time. Or they face people who paid for an advantage.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    Are memories so short that people don't remember a time without GLs? Or is everyone here new.

    AI has always been dumb in SWGOH
  • The AI doesn‘t prioritise my Zombie, that’s for sure.
    Ultra wrote: »
    fajha_jaba wrote: »
    CG is concerned about balance? CAT *is* the imbalance. They fail to recognize that they are widening the rift between top tier rosters who can max conquest rewards, and those that can't.
    They are discouraging new to moderate roster players, who are supposed to be the future of the game. Those players who theory craft and find ways to win and climb in arena.
    It's an incredible lack of foresight to listen to people cry about poor AI. If you want to get around AI, petition CG to develop real-time PVP gameplay. Better yet, play chess with someone.
    No idea how to make sure someone at CG sees this post, but I'd be curious to hear a rebuttal.

    Maxing out conquest isn't hard

    New players will face other newer players and everyone around them will be at an equal pace

    🤣 yeah, sure, that’s how it works.
    You and me and other players, who have played for 5+ years don‘t have much trouble getting top rewards in conquest. I‘m sure, people, who just unlocked their first GL do. (Which should also take ~2 years or so)

    And new shards are awful. Everyone in the top 50 buys that 110 $ accelerator pack and 15 of those are big spenders. F2P people have nowhere to go.

    I also have CAT, just no team, that generates hundreds of oot attacks and 1000% Mastery for everyone. (1000% isn‘t wrong. After two 100% ults everyone has at least 1075% Mastery)
  • TVF
    30948 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Are memories so short that people don't remember a time without GLs? Or is everyone here new.

    AI has always been dumb in SWGOH

    Obviously not what I was talking about.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Are memories so short that people don't remember a time without GLs? Or is everyone here new.

    AI has always been dumb in SWGOH

    Obviously not what I was talking about.

    I assume you were referring to power creep with new metas. I've been getting top arena ranks since summer after Traya. This is the biggest power spike I can recall since Traya herself and the first GLs.

    I blame myself for going SEE instead of JMK. I figured SEE would counter a Jedi and JMK would be pretty bad on D without KAM. The latter was true, which made me happy enough with my choice, until CAT came out :(

    I don't want to overreact. It's early. A reliable counter may be found. In the meantime, I can't believe I feel like I'm the furthest behind I've been in years because I unlocked the wrong 4th GL.
  • DonPuto
    121 posts Member
    There's nothing wrong with anything. Don't change anything. It's good for everyone.
  • Antario
    431 posts Member

    I don't want to overreact. It's early. A reliable counter may be found. In the meantime, I can't believe I feel like I'm the furthest behind I've been in years because I unlocked the wrong 4th GL.

    Don't be. If you are a Rey owner and unlocked CAT. Then you already have a very reliable counter to JMK+CAT. I went for SEE as 4th as well. No regret.
  • Antario wrote: »

    I don't want to overreact. It's early. A reliable counter may be found. In the meantime, I can't believe I feel like I'm the furthest behind I've been in years because I unlocked the wrong 4th GL.

    Don't be. If you are a Rey owner and unlocked CAT. Then you already have a very reliable counter to JMK+CAT. I went for SEE as 4th as well. No regret.

    Share with the class, please.
  • Antario
    431 posts Member
    Antario wrote: »

    I don't want to overreact. It's early. A reliable counter may be found. In the meantime, I can't believe I feel like I'm the furthest behind I've been in years because I unlocked the wrong 4th GL.

    Don't be. If you are a Rey owner and unlocked CAT. Then you already have a very reliable counter to JMK+CAT. I went for SEE as 4th as well. No regret.

    Share with the class, please.

    Click on the link in my signature.
  • MaruMaru
    2344 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Are memories so short that people don't remember a time without GLs? Or is everyone here new.

    AI has always been dumb in SWGOH

    Obviously not what I was talking about.

    I assume you were referring to power creep with new metas. I've been getting top arena ranks since summer after Traya. This is the biggest power spike I can recall since Traya herself and the first GLs.

    I blame myself for going SEE instead of JMK. I figured SEE would counter a Jedi and JMK would be pretty bad on D without KAM. The latter was true, which made me happy enough with my choice, until CAT came out :(

    I don't want to overreact. It's early. A reliable counter may be found. In the meantime, I can't believe I feel like I'm the furthest behind I've been in years because I unlocked the wrong 4th GL.

    JKR/DR?
  • Wouldn’t the smarter AI choice for shien be og ahsoka? CAT gives it to the fast guy, but ahsoka has the evasion buffs and constant out of turn attacks to match the shien description.
  • XKurareX
    451 posts Member
    The real fix would be the use of factions
    > Zombie to actually require a Nightsister as leader to revive
    > Armorer to only give Beskar Armor to Mandalorians (that buff is absolutely unbalanced and will in future anyways do more problems than anything else)
    > Wat Tambor to have full tech strength only with Separatists (or remove them on his death)
  • Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.

    I hope you see the fallacy in this statement yourself: "doesn't always seem to be the case", seems quite random to me 😉
  • Nauros
    4627 posts Member
    XKurareX wrote: »
    The real fix would be the use of factions
    > Zombie to actually require a Nightsister as leader to revive
    > Armorer to only give Beskar Armor to Mandalorians (that buff is absolutely unbalanced and will in future anyways do more problems than anything else)
    > Wat Tambor to have full tech strength only with Separatists (or remove them on his death)

    As if JML needed that kind of a kick...
  • th3evo
    344 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.

    After watching several videos back to back and watching CAT closely I think I know what the issue might be but it's a bit different than what the dev post says.
    CAT seems to prefer to attack taunting tanks even when JMK has High Ground and it's not limited to Zombie/Brute. Unless there is a higher priority target - GAS or Thrawn - she usually goes for the taunting tank whether it's Zombie, Brute, Malak or someone else. She doesn't attack them as much when they aren't taunting.
  • Antario wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »

    I don't want to overreact. It's early. A reliable counter may be found. In the meantime, I can't believe I feel like I'm the furthest behind I've been in years because I unlocked the wrong 4th GL.

    Don't be. If you are a Rey owner and unlocked CAT. Then you already have a very reliable counter to JMK+CAT. I went for SEE as 4th as well. No regret.

    Share with the class, please.

    Click on the link in my signature.

    No signature on mobile…

    I don’t mind new GLs being stronger than old ones, but I am disappointed that CG didn’t come out and said that the intent is for new GLs to be a real power increase.
    With SEE/JML they straight out said that the intent was similar power, with no new communication my assumption was that JMK+ new DS GL would continue this trend.

    That assumption was very wrong as it turns out.
  • Antario
    431 posts Member
    edited July 23
    Morgoth01 wrote: »
    No signature on mobile…

    The JMK+CAT meta is not unbeatable...and if you have CAT it is actually quite easy to beat (if you have Rey or maybe JML). There might be even non-GL counters out there with CAT.

    I think with more and more players unlocking CAT, there will be less and less complaints. Everyone can get CAT. It is just a matter of time. Faster for some people, slower for others, but not nearly as difficult as getting KAM.


  • So two decades ago I started playing Everquest. One of the first raid bosses had death touch as an ability. Every minute iirc someone died picked at random. Guilds learned to overcome it. But it was a terrible design. And the designers learned from that mistake. They learned hard is okay but unfun mechanics aren’t.

    I’m sure reliable counters will be found for jmk/cat besides rey/cat slkr/zombie etc but the design is just awful. Perma taunt, granting damage immunity, high assist counts making for a long fight and now a delete character. It’s just not a fun squad to fight. It doesn’t matter if this is balanced, fair, or anything else.
  • TVF
    30948 posts Member
    If all squads were fun to fight there'd be no advantage for those who got the newest ones earlier.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • A game has to be fun above all else. Failing that simple rule leads to the death of the game.
    However the definition of what is considered fun is very different from person to person.
  • Kill off any intelligent counters, yeah, that’s a great idea. There’s no fun when the top 50 teams in arena are identical. Slkr or SEE with GAB or NS are viable counters as it is, but far from 100%, and JMK/CAT still holds better on def than any other team, so where’s the problem?
  • Antario wrote: »
    Morgoth01 wrote: »
    No signature on mobile…

    The JMK+CAT meta is not unbeatable...and if you have CAT it is actually quite easy to beat (if you have Rey or maybe JML). There might be even non-GL counters out there with CAT.

    I think with more and more players unlocking CAT, there will be less and less complaints. Everyone can get CAT. It is just a matter of time. Faster for some people, slower for others, but not nearly as difficult as getting KAM.


    Thanks. Haven't tried your team yet, but I will tonight. Did have some success with JKL in CAT slot
  • TVF wrote: »
    If all squads were fun to fight there'd be no advantage for those who got the newest ones earlier.

    You seem to be equating fun and easy. Traya vs JKR was hard, but it was largely predictable, which made it a fun puzzle to solve. JMK is inherently unpredictable, which just makes it frustrating.

    That said, I'm sure CG knows which of these is more profitable and chose that path.
  • XKurareX wrote: »
    The real fix would be the use of factions
    > Zombie to actually require a Nightsister as leader to revive
    > Armorer to only give Beskar Armor to Mandalorians (that buff is absolutely unbalanced and will in future anyways do more problems than anything else)
    > Wat Tambor to have full tech strength only with Separatists (or remove them on his death)

    No. You cannot nuke numerous other toons because of the problem of a singular toon's interactions. You fix the singular toon, not everyone else.
  • TVF
    30948 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    If all squads were fun to fight there'd be no advantage for those who got the newest ones earlier.

    You seem to be equating fun and easy. Traya vs JKR was hard, but it was largely predictable, which made it a fun puzzle to solve. JMK is inherently unpredictable, which just makes it frustrating.

    That said, I'm sure CG knows which of these is more profitable and chose that path.

    Different people enjoy different things.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • YetiYeti
    407 posts Member
    edited July 23
    I'm sorry, but CG are flat out losing their minds if they think that JMK+Cat needs to be a single iota better. The team is downright broken.
    Post edited by Kyno on
  • YetiYeti
    407 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    AI bad on defense is bad for the players

    Are you bereft of sense? Bad AI is the only reason why people play this game. If the AI played perfectly, then players would lose a lot more battles. Watch how many players leave when TW/GAC/Arena are dishing up the AI playing perfectly.

    That'd be the absolute death knell of the game.
  • YetiYeti
    407 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Are memories so short that people don't remember a time without GLs? Or is everyone here new.

    AI has always been dumb in SWGOH

    Obviously not what I was talking about.

    I assume you were referring to power creep with new metas. I've been getting top arena ranks since summer after Traya. This is the biggest power spike I can recall since Traya herself and the first GLs.

    I blame myself for going SEE instead of JMK. I figured SEE would counter a Jedi and JMK would be pretty bad on D without KAM. The latter was true, which made me happy enough with my choice, until CAT came out :(

    I don't want to overreact. It's early. A reliable counter may be found. In the meantime, I can't believe I feel like I'm the furthest behind I've been in years because I unlocked the wrong 4th GL.

    Yup. I unlocked Rey as my fourth, instead of hoarding, and expected JMK to be weak on defense like the other new Gls. They said all GLs would be similar power levels, but JMK+Cat is downright broken.
  • Kyno
    31085 posts Moderator
    PoederAmon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.

    I hope you see the fallacy in this statement yourself: "doesn't always seem to be the case", seems quite random to me 😉

    If that was the way it always worked, yes, but it's not. Random selection as it happens now with the AI, is random. What happens with a taunt is less random, as there seems to be some bias towards the no longer taunting character.
  • Kyno
    31085 posts Moderator
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.

    After watching several videos back to back and watching CAT closely I think I know what the issue might be but it's a bit different than what the dev post says.
    CAT seems to prefer to attack taunting tanks even when JMK has High Ground and it's not limited to Zombie/Brute. Unless there is a higher priority target - GAS or Thrawn - she usually goes for the taunting tank whether it's Zombie, Brute, Malak or someone else. She doesn't attack them as much when they aren't taunting.

    Thanks for the breakdown.
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